Ron & Dianna Phillips on mon 21 jul 97
If we were all independently wealthy, I am not sure that this thread would
have anything in it.
For my part I'll say that: "Art" is producing something that is a personal
expression of your will. Tupperware is art for Mr. Tupper. Computer
programs are art for programmers. Corningware may be art for the
designers, if it is an expression of their interpretation of the design
goals and parameters.
And, I'll say that: Handmade means that the resulting form is dependent on
the hands of the producer. If employing the same process results in the
same form every time, regardless of whose hands used the process, it's not
handmade.
But, the real question is, why does this matter? If we were writing laws
(which may it never come to pass), then the definition might be important.
For example, it is important that "organic" have a legal definition.
"Lead-free," ditto.
But why is it important that "Handmade" have a commonly-held definition?
Having reread the arguments, the only real reason for the urgency seems to
do with money. People seem to be advancing the argument that a higher
price is justified, merely on the basis of a slower production method. Of
course, when I just blurt it out like that, it is obviously absurd, but it
seems to be implicit in the many of the submissions.
Well, if it is about sales, then one of the first principles of sales is:
your customer sets the price.
If an article is handmade because that is the best way of meeting the
buyer's needs, then it may merit a higher price in that customer's eyes.
If it is handmade only because we enjoy doing that kind of work, then what
additional value have we provided to a buyer to justify the higher price in
his mind?
Conversely, if it is quicker'n a minute to make, but doesn't meet the
buyer's needs, then what justification does he have for paying anything at
all?
Of course, the "handmade" item does have intrinsic value to some (a few)
buyers -- but even that value depends on their definition of "handmade,"
not ours. If a potter feels that the "handmade" label has value for the
intended market, and he wants to set his asking price higher in
consequence, then all he need do is communicate either: how the piece was
produced; or, how he defines "handmade" so that a buyer can decide whether
the piece meets his definition. His customer will decide how much to pay
for the process, on top of the other values the work may possess for him.
But what about those people who are "passing off" press-molded or slip cast
ware as handmade? It doesn't meet my definition of handmade, but, it meets
the seller's definition. For those buyers to whom "handmade" has great
value, they will find out for themselves whether the piece meets their own
definition before paying a great deal more. For those who value it a
little, they may pay a little more and check only a little on the seller's
definition. And, if they vlaue it not at all, then they won't check at all
and they won't pay any extra, either.
Just to make clear my own personal economic interest in all this, I am an
amateur who sells just about enough to cover my costs. I have a lot of
doubts about trying to go pro -- I enjoy my independence. I am a
handbuilder, because that meets my needs, so I don't expect too much
commercially, anyway. But I might note that the wheel was originally
adopted as a high-production tool, and I imagine that much the same
arguments were advanced against wheel-thrown ware by the hand-builders of
that time.
Ron "Just got a break in the weather -- going for a bike ride" Phillips in
Ohio
James Dapogny on wed 23 jul 97
>But what about those people who are "passing off" press-molded or slip cast
>ware as handmade? It doesn't meet my definition of handmade, but, it meets
>the seller's definition. For those buyers to whom "handmade" has great
>value, they will find out for themselves whether the piece meets their own
>definition before paying a great deal more. For those who value it a
>little, they may pay a little more and check only a little on the seller's
>definition. And, if they vlaue it not at all, then they won't check at all
>and they won't pay any extra, either.
I think that most buyers are not even aware of the possibility that a pot
sold to them by an individual might not be hand-crafted, i.e. thrown by
that person. I suspect that it WOULD matter to many or most buyers, that
even if they went ahead and purchased the pot they would feel a little
bit cheated. I believe that there is something really dishonest about
letting people believe what they may.
--Gail Dapogny in Ann Arbor
CDANIELLE on wed 23 jul 97
Ron & Dianna Phillips wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
People seem to be advancing the argument that a higher
> price is justified, merely on the basis of a slower production method. Of
> course, when I just blurt it out like that, it is obviously absurd,
No, it doesn't seem absurd to me at all, but I don't think it's the only
justification for a higher price on handmande work. I think part of the
underlying support for the mentality that "handmade is better," is that
handmade usually also means that no one will have the exact same thing
and that makes it special. People forget why handmade is special and
start buying stuff just because it looks handmade and don't notice it's
sitting on a stack of six exact duplicates. Do you think all the people
that end up at craft shows are collectors of handmade stuff and are
looking for something to add their immense collection of handmade
things?They're not, most people want something different because most of
the things they have are mass produced and they think they are in a
place where everything is uniquely created resulting in a one of kind
object. I suspect that it would matter to most people if they knew that
there are people utilizing similar methods to create their stuff at
craft markets as were employed to make the rest of the mass produced
things they have sitting at home. They just don't even know to ask.
Gabe Thomas
cdaniell@prodigy.net
Lauren Ball on thu 24 jul 97
At 09:27 AM 7/23/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>But what about those people who are "passing off" press-molded or slip cast
>>ware as handmade? It doesn't meet my definition of handmade, but, it meets
>>the seller's definition. For those buyers to whom "handmade" has great
>>value, they will find out for themselves whether the piece meets their own
>>definition before paying a great deal more. For those who value it a
>>little, they may pay a little more and check only a little on the seller's
>>definition. And, if they vlaue it not at all, then they won't check at all
>>and they won't pay any extra, either.
>
1 sense of handmade
Sense 1
handmade (vs. machine-made), hand-crafted -- (made by hand or a hand
process: "delicate handmade baby dresses")
=> camp-made -- (made as part of the arts-and-crafts program at
summer camp: "my camp-made leather wallet")
=> hand-loomed, handwoven -- (made on a handloom: "handwoven tablecloth")
=> handsewn, handstitched -- (sewn by hand rather than machine)
=> overhand, oversewn -- (sewn together with overhand stitches (close
vertical stitches that pass over and draw the two edges together))
Pinch pots are handmade. The difference between an electric powered wheel
made item, and a pich pot is greater than the difference between an electric
wheel made item and a jiggered item. Hand made goods may involve the use
hand tools, but not machines, especially atrificially powered machines.
Interestingly enough the process of casting in molds fits the definition of
handmade better than the process of making pots on an electric wheel,
because of the involvement in the process of the Machine.
The opposite of handmade is machine made.
To accuse others of missrepresentation is often a case of the cat calling
the kettle black. Do you or don't you use ANY machines in your process?
Any wheel is a machine, it has moving parts. It doesn't need to be electric.
Just thought I'd throw that my two cents in.
Personally I think there is room if the world for diversity. different
strokes etc.
I noticed yesterday driving through downtown Portland that some of the older
buildings were more beautiful, had more charm and character. This was
simply because the builders/architects had choosen to incorporate some art
work in the outside structure of the buildings.
The same is true of mugs. You can buy mass produced simple designed ware,
or you can pay more for something a bit more decorated, or you can pay a lot
more for a unique piece. How it's made is not as important as to how it
looks and how well it's made.
Beauty is not always a function of method or process. Craftsmanship doesn't
mean "handmade". It means paying attention to details, it's about quality
whatever your method.
Lauren
Don Jones on fri 25 jul 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>But what about those people who are "passing off" press-molded or slip cast
>>ware as handmade? It doesn't meet my definition of handmade, but, it meets
>>the seller's definition. For those buyers to whom "handmade" has great
>>value, they will find out for themselves whether the piece meets their own
>>definition before paying a great deal more. For those who value it a
>>little, they may pay a little more and check only a little on the seller's
>>definition. And, if they vlaue it not at all, then they won't check at all
>>and they won't pay any extra, either.
>
>I think that most buyers are not even aware of the possibility that a pot
>sold to them by an individual might not be hand-crafted, i.e. thrown by
>that person. I suspect that it WOULD matter to many or most buyers, that
>even if they went ahead and purchased the pot they would feel a little
>bit cheated. I believe that there is something really dishonest about
>letting people believe what they may.
>--Gail Dapogny in Ann Arbor
My final word on this issue occurred to me this morning. When I visited my
neighbors booths in Philadelphia, it seemed to me that the people who were
jiggering or casting vast quantities of work were not saying so in thier
booths. I.E, nowhere in their booth was a sign that said for example, -
best jiggered ware in S.C. - or - finest slipcast porcelain etc. They let
the buyer assume it was handmade because they are in the Rosen handmade
show and thier booth neighbors have signs saying hand-thrown porcelain etc.
They don't seem proud of it. It SEEMS a little slippery of them. This is
no reflection of the quality of their work. Indeed the quality exceeded
many of the handthrown work there. Still, I didn't get the impression they
were up front about it.
When you go in my booth, I have a sign that says wheel thrown, and the
small 5" spheres were clearly marked - cast.
Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
Dawne Jenelle Fowkes on fri 25 jul 97
Lauren,
What about kickwheels or treadle wheels? Do you see them qualifying as
tools or machines?
Just asking...............
Dawne Jenelle Fowkes
Ventura, California where it is really foggy.
James Henry Gorman on sat 26 jul 97
Handmade means when the hands creates the form!!!
sure you could throw down a ball of clay down on a
wheel head of a kick wheel and kick like mule and
you still would have a ball of clay sitting there .
not until you put your hands on the clay to form
the vessel does it becomes handmade and only if
the craft person is skilled. You can teach a person
to jigger or pour a mold in less than a day,and their
hands may not even have touch the clay they used!!
you tell me
jim gorman
Lauren Ball on sat 26 jul 97
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
What about kickwheels or treadle wheels? Do you see them qualifying as
tools or machines?
Dawne
Even kickwheels or treadle wheels are machines. They have moving parts.
My gray area comes from watching primitive potters put clay on a wodden base and
Lauren
| |
|
