phyllis michele greenhouse on tue 23 sep 97
hi gang....
i've been following the thread about apprentices with relish, hoping to see
something related to what i've dealt with in the past, and as yet, this has
not been brought to the fore...
Back in the late eighties, I brought a young woman into my studio who was
very eager to learn...she had previously only been working on decorating
molds, and had the desire to start from scratch, the way in which i had
begun my own journey in clay...
her chores were minimal, i.e. a bit of pugging and perhaps some wedging,
however, she observed me in my normal 8 hour a day studio routine and began
her sojourn into the world of clay...three years later, I felt it was time
to push the fledgling potter into the world of erecting her own studio or
possibly going to a local community college for further studies, assured
from our time together that i had her up to par on all of the basics and a
great deal of advanced work which came when she was privy to my regular
studio routines...we had concentrated on throwing techniques, glaze
formulation, raku sessions, honing up skills of form and design.
Basically, the woman was emulating each and every one of my types of clay
art, be it my raku urns, functional vessels or poly chrome slip design
works....this was one of the reasons that i pointed her towards continuing
education at a local college...i assumed she would be confronted with a
plethora of other students working in clay and perhaps become inspired by
the variety of talent, skills and tricks that might be imparted to her
there...she did go, but as the years progressed, i visited her periodically
HOPING to see a change from my unusual styles...much to my dismay, she was
still stuck on all of my technique........
NOW, i have been told that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, BUT
there must be some sort of way to prevent this from occurring...whenever i
had noticed some nuance that she had come up with on her own, i told her
how wonderful it was to see and how she should persue it....however, she
kept falling back upon the same ole same ole, even embellishing her handles
with my sculptural squiggles, trimming feet precisely the unusual way i do,
creating tomtemic vessels with sculptural additions and so on...EVERY time
i tried to broach the topic of how her work was emulating mine, she would
freak out and cry plaintively, "its NOT the same"...(the only thing that
was NOT the same, was the quality of the work < sigh>
well, its now, 8-9 years later and i've recently visited her studio...i was
almost in shock this time...she's managed to come up with some very nice
majolica bowls and other brightly colored dog/cat feeders that are sale
worthy, and NOT anything that i do...HOWEVER, she does not seem to be
happy, in her OWN words, "stuck" within these limits...i just sighed and
again urged her on to work with more of her own original designs, at the
same time, taking notice of the rest of the work in her studio which is now
quite reminiscent of all of my recent work, which she is able to peruse
when she comes to my exhibitions or visits my studio :(
i am really at a loss...she seems absolutely blind to the fact that she is
exactly duplicating my work and can not get out of this mode she seems to
tenaciously cling to...all i wanted to do was get her going..i did not need
my work emulated... its difficult ENUFF to sell :) does anyone have any
ideas of how i can even more tactfully approach her and try and allow her
to see what is blatantly in front of her face...i truly do NOT mind what
she is doing as she is 10 years behind me in skills, however, i feel as if
she is stagnating by not going after her own niche....
she is a dear friend and i do not wanna upset her any longer about bringing
this to her attention....its been at least 4 years since i've even
mentioned it to her...complimenting her on her own work, does NOT SEEM to
work and i'm left quite frustrated...i even went so far as to give her all
of my glaze recipes which adds insult to injury..it all looks like a poor
ripoff of my work and i'm left feeling very uncomfortable about it...
any insights ?
thanx,
phyllis michele greenhouse aka rapture
http://www.icanect.net\~rapture
don't forget about the #pottery channel on the INTERNET RELAY
CHAT...starlink servers..( see the ceramics web for instructions on how to
join in on the merriment and terrific company ! )
phyllis michele greenhouse on wed 24 sep 97
>http://www.icanect.net\~rapture
sorry about the url typo... its supposed to be :
http://www.icanect.net/~rapture
Wendy Rosen on wed 24 sep 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Re: Apprentices
>phyllis michele greenhouse aka rapture
>http://www.icanect.net\~rapture
Most of the "artists" I find in the hobby world are left-brained people
trying to live in a right-brained world... that's why they need patterns,
kits and supplies that take all the real creativity out of the activity.
They use art for relaxation... ONLY.
Therefore, not a good choice for an apprentice...
Best Wishes,
Wendy
americanstyle.com
wendyr@rosengrp.com
>
Carol Jackaway on wed 24 sep 97
Hi Phyllis,
Some times a picture is worth a thousand words.....what about taking a
shot of a peice of your work and the same peice of your firends. Maybe once
she sees this she my begin to realize what she is creating. She may also feel
that since she learned from you that this is a "safe"
form of work for her. There are many ceramic people that never really push
themselves passed their orginal teachers or forms. It is safe to stay with
what works.
I know a potter who makes apprentices sign a document that reframes them
from make exact forms or glazes learned from him for up to 5 years after they
leave him. So far he has had no problems.
Good luck,
Carol Jackaway
Carol's Clay Fantasies
Parkside Pa.
Darrol Shillingburg on wed 24 sep 97
Hi Phyllis,
Sounds like your friend is still "working out of the mold", just a
different mold! Some competent and compassionant art therapy might help her
escape the mold syndrone and find her own creative voice.
It's not necessarily an easy journey.
By the way, I enjoyed your web site.
Darrol in Elephant Butte, NM
phyllis michele greenhouse on thu 25 sep 97
At 09:24 AM 9/24/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Re: Apprentices
>>phyllis michele greenhouse aka rapture
>>http://www.icanect.net/~rapture
>
>Most of the "artists" I find in the hobby world are left-brained people
>trying to live in a right-brained world... that's why they need patterns,
>kits and supplies that take all the real creativity out of the activity.
>They use art for relaxation... ONLY.
>
>Therefore, not a good choice for an apprentice...
>
>Best Wishes,
>Wendy
>americanstyle.com
>wendyr@rosengrp.com
wendy, i concur.....however, each situation is different...the
circumstances leading up to my having taken on an apprentice were innocent
enuff, and had i perceived that almost a decade later THIS situation would
be transpiring, i'd have rethunk the need to have a wedging slave :)
all kidding aside, she really works diligently, and i commend her for her
fortitude within an environment that is almost devoid of an evolved sense
of creativity and imagination...i would never be able to tell her that she
just does not "have" it...its not my style...perhaps i should suggest to
her that SHE take on an apprentice and see what sort of response this
inspires..i've always maintained that the BEST way to learn anything
completely, is to TEACH it yourself.....
Rick Sherman on thu 25 sep 97
----------------------------original message--------------------------
Most of the "artists" I find in the hobby world are left-brained
people trying to live in a right-brained world... that's why they need
patterns, kits and supplies that take all the real creativity out of
the activity. They use art for relaxation... ONLY.
Therefore, not a good choice for an apprentice...
Best Wishes,
Wendy
----------------------------------reply-------------------------------
I am unable to let this pass. I have this statement as example when
in a unit I taught on the Power of Persuasion in Propaganda. This is
a propaganda technique called stereotyping. We have had to confront
it when trying to get art into school curriculum, in funding for the
arts, in equal representation on the workplace and the world of
politics. We are not all left or right brained and those who chose
art as a hobby can be as serious and professional as those who make it
their career. Nor do the artists have a lock on creativity.
I suggest reading Howard Gardner9s Frames of Mind: The Seven
Intelligences or study the results of his work on Project Zero at
Harvard University. It also might be helpful to learn about the
Myers-Brigs Matrix of Personality Types and Please Understand Me:
Character and Temperament Types by Keirsey and Bates.
Rick Sherman
California Crafts Network
phyllis michele greenhouse on thu 25 sep 97
>Hi Phyllis,
> Some times a picture is worth a thousand words.....what about taking a
>shot of a piece of your work and the same peice of your firends.
hi carol, thanx for responding :) well........the main reason i find myself
sooo frustrated is that this woman will NOT even let me bring up the
subject without flying into a rage....so, rather than have to experience
that response from her, i have chosen to back off by doing nothing :(...
no matter which way i try and force her to put her attention upon this very
delicate issue is something that she is just not ready to face...otherwise,
this situation would simply NOT be happening...i told her from the
beginning, as i took note of each subtle nuance of mine she was emulating,
"now, now (name excluded to shield the innocent) that looks a bit like my
method, u should go out and examine other potters dry footing and
rims...see what you can do to change or alter what you see here" NO DICE :( !
Maybe once
>she sees this she my begin to realize what she is creating.
last week she made a comment something akin to " gee, i wish i could decide
exactly what type of work i should concentrate on" (this was my now or
never moment) and i just froze......sigh...the ironic thing here is that i
have been told periodically, for the past 17 years by a few clay artists
that i should focus on just one area of claywork...having refused to give
up the 3 distinct styles that i create, i find this almost hysterically
funny that she now thinks she is stuck in the same bag...MY BAG ! (altho,
i've never felt stuck, only eclectic and diverse )
She may also feel
>that since she learned from you that this is a "safe"
>form of work for her.
on the contrary, i've been complaining to her for years, how my work NEVER
sells...so, this cannot be why she is emulating me...altho i do not go out
and even try and sell my urns, vessels and functional ware...stopped doing
street fairs back in 1990...by the way, i've been teaching for a living
since 1985...in south florida, its difficult to actually pay the bills by
selling your wares...i do get good press and invitations to exhibit, so,
perhaps that is what motivates her...i am not really sure...
There are many ceramic people that never really push
>themselves passed their original teachers or forms. It is safe to stay with
>what works. I know a potter who makes apprentices sign a document that
reframes them
>from make exact forms or glazes learned from him for up to 5 years after they
>leave him. So far he has had no problems.
good idea...sorry i was not privy to clayart 10 years ago :) (if only !)
some exceptional ideas have been received and executed due to this
wonderful medium !
thanx for your ideas....
phyllis michele greenhouse
the earthspinner
http://www.icanect.net/~rapture
phyllis michele greenhouse on thu 25 sep 97
>Hi Phyllis,
>
>Sounds like your friend is still "working out of the mold", just a
>different mold! Some competent and compassionant art therapy might help her
>escape the mold syndrone and find her own creative voice.
>It's not necessarily an easy journey.
darrol, i do believe you've hit the proverbial nail on the head.....
>By the way, I enjoyed your web site.
thanx, tho how you found it astonishes me, as i typed in the wrong url !
you must be a very compassionate and perceptive art therapist :)
http://www.icanect.net/~rapture
phyllis michele greenhouse on thu 25 sep 97
by the way...
i've been receiving some really amazing private posts about this situation
and similar scenarios and did not realize what a can of worms i would open
up...these posts were made privately because the individuals were
expressing similar situations and also INVERTED situations that have taken
place... so, to post openly would be really stepping out on a limb..i have
gleaned from these posts that the fear is that some of our very own list
members might infact, be involved in mimicing their mentors...all i can
offer up here is an "i hear ya" and perhaps some of the public postings
might inspire a modicum of hope, and or resolvement...
not gonna mention any names, but one such post did offer up this text to be
adhered to my work :
"accept NO substitutes! Often-immitated rapture sculptures are not deemed
authentic
without this certificate of approval!"
it does pay to have a sense of humor about all of this :)
thanx for all of your attention and support,
phyllis michele greenhouse
Darrol Shillingburg on sat 27 sep 97
Hi Phyllis,
Hopefully a compassionate and perceptive artist and human being, but not a
therapist. Maybe theraputic in some of my better moments, hard to tell. I
have however, had the good fortune of knowing and working with several
artist/art-therapist combination persons and of using art therapy approachs
in my own personal growth and creative awakening. It's a powerful way of
working with inner creative barriers and imbalances and creating a well
worn path from inner urge to outer application.
I think the apprentiship package should include consideration of personal
creative development along with the technical and business aspects of
craft.
> you must be a very compassionate and perceptive art therapist :)
>
Darrol in Elephant Butte, NM
Susan L. Ross on mon 29 sep 97
Phyllis:
Each time I see this topic pop up I can't help but to wonder if your
appendaged apprentice is a Clayart subscriber, eh? Might be rather
enlightening if she were...
Su
RubySuMoon@aol.com
Potting in Piedmont CA
getalong littledoggies on tue 30 sep 97
Your posts are very entertaining you are a good writer.It sounds like
your apprentice needs an imagination transplant.Maybe she just doesn't
have what it takes to be original.Maybe something will eventually dawn
on her & she will become enlightened ,who knows. Maybe she is afraid of
indviduality etc etc.As for your diversity in your art ,what could be
more boring than concentrating on one aspect of anything ,some of the
great artists experiment in different forms because their minds are
always curious of the "what if" factor. Diversity is the spice of
life.Mark
Lyla Kaplan on wed 1 oct 97
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>>Phyllis:
>>
>>Each time I see this topic pop up I can't help but to wonder if your
>>appendaged apprentice is a Clayart subscriber, eh? Might be rather
>>enlightening if she were...
>>
>>Su
>>RubySuMoon@aol.com
>>Potting in Piedmont CA
>
>actually, the ONLY reason i felt comfortable in posting this situation
is
>fact that she is resistant to getting a computer :) .... so, when and
if
>she finally takes the cyberplunge, this thread shall be long
gone...sorry
>i was blessed with over an abundance of creativity, yet, sorely
lacking in
>guts....guess i'd have to choose the former if it came right down to
it :)
actually, Phyllis, i was thinking, why not send her a copy of that
letter, or one similar to it? i mean, you aren't being rude in the
letter, just honest, something she is not being. if she is doing more
than just "paraphrasing" and
"Timesplagiarizing" you as you
indicated in your letter, then she is being dishonest and unethical.
lyla
Margaret Arial on fri 10 oct 97
HI,.I too took on a couple as apprentices a year age in march they were a
couple from boling texas. they were to learn tilemaking from ground up as
they were carpenters of sorts until now. they seemed enthusiastic and in
return i gaave them stay on my property in their trailer attached to my
septic, water, electric and phone at a cost of excess long distance calls and
a bit for excessive electricity over our norm.i paid them $600 PER WEEK TO
RENOVATE AN OLD HOUSE ON THE PROPERTY. THEY HAD FULL USE OF MY VERY WELL
EQUIPPED STUDIO.Well now i no longer have my collection of ceramics monthly
from 1968 not my books on glazing, tile and pottery in general nor a large
collection of video tapes.Tools of the trade in my toolboxes both for pottery
gathered over 30 years are all gone as are all the carpentry and related
tools an supplies.My kitchen and serving stuff, toys and videos for the
grandchildren and on and on are gone.Not to mention general studio stuff.The
thing is they seemed soooooo nice and trustworthy that i waas giving them my
blank checks to buy supplies for construction, my credit cards ditto.My
drivers liscense, passport, marriage certificate, birth certificate
customers lists , shop lists, glaze notebooks and much more disappeared
right from under my nose because i lived off premises and they were here like
my night watch people i thought .I had had problems in the past and thought
that having someone on the premises would stop the problems but everything i
told them about was only giving them ideas.My cameras and slide projectors
all gone.......They willl be looking for another patsy too and all of you
beware.i will email specific details and photo of anyone who thinks they have
approached you.They will be making tile.i stopped short of glaze and firing
when i caught them but they skipped town before the police caught up with
them.
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