Numo Jaeger and Michael Miller on thu 10 jul 97
Hello my friends on CLAYART!!
I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is important to
teach all high school art students to draw realisitically?
If so, why? If not, why not?
I would really love to hear what you all think...
-Numo
jaegmil@pop.ccnet.com
Andreas C Salzman on fri 11 jul 97
Responding to the message of Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:31:18 EDT
from Numo Jaeger and Michael Miller :
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hello my friends on CLAYART!!
>
> I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is important
> to
> teach all high school art students to draw realisitically?
>
> If so, why? If not, why not?
>
> I would really love to hear what you all think...
>
>
>
> -Numo
Yes it is....It seems to be the only measure high school students
understand....if they are not asked to draw realisiticlly ( and taught HOW
to draw realisiticlly), many (most) will simply draw cartoon char.s and
"logo"s ( i.e. the chevy bowtie..)
andy
salz0016@gold.tc.umn.edu
John Post on fri 11 jul 97
>I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is
>important to teach all high school art students to draw
>realistically?
>>If so, why? If not, why not?
Probably one of the best reasons for teaching high school art
students to draw realistically is that it is developmentally
appropriate. Kids who can draw well at this age are respected as the
artists in the class. Kids at the middle school level and up crave
the ability to draw realistically. They judge their own drawings and
the drawings of other students using realism as the standard. High
school students think that the artists in their class are the
students who can draw realistically.
I usually try to tap into this craving for realism by teaching the
kids the tools and tricks of drawing realistically. I believe that
every student can learn the principles of shading, composition,
perspective etc. Just as every student can learn the principles of
addition, subtraction etc. when learning mathematics. These tools
will help them to get to "their" goal of drawing better. Not every
kid will become a master artist just as not every kid will not become
a mathematician either. The basic skills in each discipline are
still very important to teach. While I am not a musician, I have a
much deeper appreciation and understanding of music because of the
music lessons I took as a teen.
I like to compare learning the tools of drawing to learning the
alphabet. Students who are learning to shade spheres and egg forms
sometimes get frustrated if their first effort does not look
amazingly realistic. I point out to them that when the they were
first learning to write letters that their first letter A probably
didn't look too much like the letter A's that they write today. It
is only through practising something over and over that the skills
are developed.
Young elementary school students are more comfortable with their
drawing ability and often use it just for fun. The neighborhood kids
and I spent an hour last night making chalk drawings all over the
sidewalks. The mood of these kids while they were drawing was one of
playfullness and joy. It was pretty contagious. They didn't give a
hoot about realism, they just drew what they liked and liked what they
drew. They are very nonjudgmental about their work. The "critic
inside their head" hasn't kicked in like it does when they get to
middle school. It is then that realism monster rears its ugly head
and kids then label themselves as either artistic or nonartistic. If
you teach them some skills to improve their realistic drawing they may
actually be more excited and less frustrated by drawing.
A high school that I once taught at used the Betty Edwards book
"Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" as a course text designed to
give freshman art students some basic drawing skills. While the work
the students created based on the exercises in this book was not very
exciting to me, it did give them some techniques for improving their
drawings and boosting their confidence about drawing.
There is another book that I would recommend. I think it is called
"Analyzing Children's Art" by Rhoda Kellogg. It looks at the
"developmental stages" that children of all cultures go through as
they are learning to communicate through drawing. (My two year old
son is at the "Scribble" stage and his drawings are quite
wonderfully abstract and full of motion. BTW his favorite color is
Purple-green.) While this book primarily looks at young childrens
art, it is interesting to see the progression from abstraction to
realism. Its normal for kids to want to draw realistically. Its
part of their cognitive growth process. Go with it.
John Post
johnpost@c3net.net
rp1mrvl@moa.net
Ric Swenson on fri 11 jul 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hello my friends on CLAYART!!
>
>I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is important to
>teach all high school art students to draw realisitically?
>
>If so, why? If not, why not?
>
>I would really love to hear what you all think...
>
>
>
>-Numo
>jaegmil@pop.ccnet.com
-------------reply------------
Numo,
Yes.
There are lots of reasons, (this is the type of issue that can take
volumes to discuss!) but it boils down to the fact that drawing is a skill
that anyone can learn with practice and it enhances our ability to
communicate thoughts, ideas and feelings.
Drawing..... (what does " 'realistic' MEAN?"...photographic?....in color?
do you mean repesentational as compared to non-representational...or do you
mean what most of us use to draw.....abstract?) ....... is a discipline
that all should learn about, and those that call themselves "artist...or
craftsperson..or potter...or sculptor/tress...or whatever", NEED to have
in their 'repertoire' of skills, and practice it on a regular basis.
I, personally feel the same about other "skills of craftsmanship" whether
it is sketching pottery shapes, throwing skills, signing one's work,
details of trimming a foot, how a canvas is stretched, or how the wire on
the back of the painting is handled. Caring about the details is part of
the creative process as far as I am concerned. The product of Art,
afterall, belongs to the public for the most part, and the process is the
artists.
In my, sometimes not so humble, opinion.
Ric
who taught Jr/Sr High art for 12 years and college studio, art history and
ceramics courses for many more years.
Ric Swenson, Bennington College, Route 67 -A, Bennington, Vermont 05201-6001
802 442-5401 x 262 vox x 237 fax or dedicated fax 802 442-6164
email: rswenson@bennington.edu
Sandra Dwiggins on fri 11 jul 97
Depends on what you mean by "realistically"----Do you mean copying a
thing exactly as it is---or do you mean teaching the fundamentals of
observation and how you make a 2-d surface appear to be a 3-d
surface---whether an object is a real thing or an imagined thing......
Try looking at the books by Mona Roberts(?)--She has two books about
Drawing with Children and Drawing with High School Students and
Adults--those are the titles. They give a wonderful systematic approach
to drawing and teaching and learning drawing. Anybody can
draw---and she proves it. We just can't all be Michaelangelos, but we
can have a good time trying....
Sandy
ken tighe on fri 11 jul 97
All high school students draw realistically? You mean 100%? I don't see
how you could get 100% of high school students to do anything, nor should
you want to. Hey, I never tried to make art until well after my fortieth
birthday. Why? Because as a kid in elementary and high school one was
discouraged from making art unless one could draw horses like Degas. There
were kids who could "draw" and kids who couldn't. Forget the fact that
many of the kids who could "draw" were not in touch with their emotions and
were capable only of cranking out well executed drawings devoid of passion.
Sure, realistic drawing can be learned by most, but it is a major
struggle for many people. To suggest that the making of art, the
expression of one's deepest feelings, should necessarily be associated with
"realistic drawing" is to kiss off some of our finest young artists. By
all means draw, but draw expressively. There are many teens out there
with a belly full of passion that will never find expression if "realistic
drawing" is their only avenue. With all sincerity from a late bloomer who
draws in pain.....Kenneth.
TwinTruble@aol.com on fri 11 jul 97
In a message dated 97-07-11 01:07:33 EDT, you write:
<< Do you think it is important to
teach all high school art students to draw realisitically? >>
I think it is important to teach students good technique, but at the same
time they should be encouraged to express their own creativity. I think that
there is a fine line between teaching good technique, and stifling ones
imagination.
Tina
Art undergraduate @ UNLV
Jodi Doster on fri 11 jul 97
Hello,
I am not a high school teacher, but this is an interesting question. I am
however a graduate student at the University of Central Florida (biology,
however) and took Adv. Drawing this summer where the subject of teaching high
school students did come up. I think that realistic drawing should probably
being included but may not stressed. The important thing that they should
prehaps learn is darwing the inner cross so that they learn to draw winthin
their subjects and to use as much energy and gesture within the first few
moments of the drawing as possible. I think letting them be creative and
finding their own place in their drawing would be more important, however
don't let them fall into a comfort zone push them to go beyound their limits
so they will strive for the best or better and get those that are truly going
to go in their presuits ready for the college experience without stifling
them.
Jodi
Grimmer on fri 11 jul 97
Hi,
You bet I think it's important to teach ALL beginning art students to draw
realistically. Drawing is one of the foundations of all the visual arts. My favo
analogy is to music: one can't play jazz without learning the scales first. Orne
Coleman played them incessantly. To the day he died.
steve grimmer
carterville illinois
Numo Jaeger and Michael Miller wrote:
>
> I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is important to
> teach all high school art students to draw realisitically?
>
> If so, why? If not, why not?
>
Karl P. Platt on sat 12 jul 97
Heisenberg may have been here......just now.
On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, John Post wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is
> >important to teach all high school art students to draw
> >realistically?
> >>If so, why? If not, why not?
>
Answering questions with questions is awful, but onw wants to ask whether
the questioner thinks its a good idea to teach them to add or write with
fluency. All students? Everyone has different aptitudes, but a little
exposure should make for a more balanced individual in the end, no?
Dannon Rhudy on sat 12 jul 97
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>Hello my friends on CLAYART!!
>
>I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is
important to
>teach all high school art students to draw realisitically?
>
>If so, why? If not, why not?
>
>------------------------------------------
Numo,
I think, yes, they should learn to draw representationally, and
for a number of reasons. The main ones are that it is generally
important to the students themselves to have that skill, and it
is a learnable skill just like writing or driving a car.
In addition, it gives them an underpinning for later growth.
Much as musicians practice their scales and build upon that
foundation, so ought art students to learn drawing skills and
build upon THAT foundation. The earlier learned and more often
practiced, then the sooner those interested and capable will move
to abstraction, innovation and interpretation of their own.
But they need the foundation(s), and practice. I get rather a
lot of beginning drawing students who imagine that because they
can copy Spiderman comics they can "draw". Hard to get them
past that, sometimes. Often, in fact.
Maybe the real reason I think they should learn representational
drawing, and the skills that requires, is that it would make my
beginning drawing classes easier......
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
Numo Jaeger and Michael Miller on sat 12 jul 97
Hi Kenneth,
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and opinions with me. I liked
the section of the sentence where you said, "cranking out well executed
drawings devoid of passion." A powerful group of words. All ages have
passion and beauty.
I am interested in encouraging students into the "arts", not to discouraging
them. It seems there is no simple answer... I would like to encourage the
young, not so young and those finally "coming home to the arts", to instill
a passion for art and then from their own free will seek out technique from
that point.
I'm a dreamer.
Numo
artist/educator/mudslinger
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>All high school students draw realistically? You mean 100%? I don't see
>how you could get 100% of high school students to do anything, nor should
>you want to. Hey, I never tried to make art until well after my fortieth
>birthday. Why? Because as a kid in elementary and high school one was
>discouraged from making art unless one could draw horses like Degas. There
>were kids who could "draw" and kids who couldn't. Forget the fact that
>many of the kids who could "draw" were not in touch with their emotions and
>were capable only of cranking out well executed drawings devoid of passion.
>Sure, realistic drawing can be learned by most, but it is a major
>struggle for many people. To suggest that the making of art, the
>expression of one's deepest feelings, should necessarily be associated with
>"realistic drawing" is to kiss off some of our finest young artists. By
>all means draw, but draw expressively. There are many teens out there
>with a belly full of passion that will never find expression if "realistic
>drawing" is their only avenue. With all sincerity from a late bloomer who
>draws in pain.....Kenneth.
>
>
Dannon Rhudy on sat 12 jul 97
Ken,
I hope you mean representationally, rather than realistically.
It is a pity if people learning to draw were discouraged from
it - but drawing is a skill, like reading, playing piano, driving
a car. It can be learned, and the learning should not be painful.
Building a "vocabulary" of marks is like building a vocabulary
of words. And the process is much the same, surprisingly.
It is a matter of practice, and eye/hand coordination. That does
not and will not make genius. But it will make competence.
Couldn't hurt. Might help.
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
All high school students draw realistically? You mean 100%? I
don't see
how you could get 100% of high school students to do anything, nor
should
you want to. Hey, I never tried to make art until well after my
fortieth
birthday. Why? Because as a kid in elementary and high school
one was
discouraged from making art unless one could draw horses like
Degas. There
were kids who could "draw" and kids who couldn't. Forget the fact
that
many of the kids who could "draw" were not in touch with their
emotions and
were capable only of cranking out well executed drawings devoid of
passion.
Sure, realistic drawing can be learned by most, but it is a major
struggle for many people. To suggest that the making of art, the
expression of one's deepest feelings, should necessarily be
associated with
"realistic drawing" is to kiss off some of our finest young
artists. By
all means draw, but draw expressively. There are many teens out
there
with a belly full of passion that will never find expression if
"realistic
drawing" is their only avenue. With all sincerity from a late
bloomer who
draws in pain.....Kenneth.
Shelly Christensen on sat 12 jul 97
-- [ From: Shelly Christensen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
As a high school teacher, I feel it is important for students to draw using
realistic subject matter and in a realistic manner. Line, shape, value,
texture, form, & color are all important for kids to learn. I also feel
that it is important to mimic what the great masters of the past have done.
Copy other masters work. It's a great way for kids to learn the essentials
of composition. There is also nothing wrong with trying to capture the mood
that a great master was able to capture. Sure, it's important for kids to
understand great non-objective and abstract works of art, but most of my
students take great pleasure in making something look like it really did.
Most of the kids think the "other" art is something their younger brother or
sister would do. That's where EDUCATION comes in.
--
Shelly Christensen
claywork@magiclink.com
Hooray!!!! Summer is here!!!!!
Numo Jaeger and Michael Miller on sun 13 jul 97
Hello Karl,
Who is Heisenberg?
Writing with fluency, reading with fluency,adding and subtracting with
fluency all seem of great importance. I don't think we teach "fluency" in
the schools very well. I think it happens over a longer time period.
I like the idea of "visual fluency".
Can we get visual fluency equally from use of our hands and 3'dimensional
matterial as well as using drawing and painting materials? More than one
method would be wonderful.
Does it matter which way we begin to approach visual fluency?
Numo
At 08:46 AM 7/12/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>
>Heisenberg may have been here......just now.
>
>On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, John Post wrote:
>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> >I have a question for all of you out there. Do you think it is
>> >important to teach all high school art students to draw
>> >realistically?
>> >>If so, why? If not, why not?
>>
>
>Answering questions with questions is awful, but onw wants to ask whether
>the questioner thinks its a good idea to teach them to add or write with
>fluency. All students? Everyone has different aptitudes, but a little
>exposure should make for a more balanced individual in the end, no?
>
>
Thomas Clark on mon 14 jul 97
This is a really great question. Here are my ideas on it:
Although I think it is really important for each student to have the ability
to draw realistically it is more important to support students in expressing
whatever creativity is right for them.
One of the most powerful things my high school art teacher taught me, is that
because it is realistic it does not necessarily mean that it is better art.
He also had the ability to see that I naturally leaned towards abstract art
and even gave me seperate assignments because of it. Sure I had to do the
self-portrait and still lifes but he supported me greatly in exploring the
type of creativity that came more naturally to me, abstract painting. He even
allowed me to do my painting while others had to finish more still lifes.
So, I may not have a lot of practice in proportionately drawing bodies or
chairs or whatever, but I had the opportunity to express the creativity that I
didn't even have to think about. The kind that came flowing off my brush and
painted the canvas without my mind in it. We all have this amazing well of
creativity ready to burst out and the best thing we can teach students is to
let it out.
Technique is important, so teach students how to draw realistically. However,
by being aware of your students' inner creative needs you may find that some
should move on even before they've gotten drawing realistically down. Support
them in expressing their own inner creativity. Isn't this the joy of teaching
art?
"There is no must in art because art is free."
- Wassily Kandinsky
-Amber Geiger
twochickens@msn.com
In Sapporo, Japan but I'm moving back to the U.S. in just one week and I'm so
EXCITED!! Hope I get to meet some of you someday.
ken tighe on mon 14 jul 97
For Dannon, Numo, and all you art teachers out there-- Yes, it is important
for you to teach representational drawing. It's a valuable skill. For a
serious artist it is essential to draw reasonably well (I think). That
drawing can be learned, however, is still something most people don't
believe. About 5 years ago my own kid said to me (she was 16) "But I Can't
draw." And I said, "But you could learn how." She did not believe me, and
probably still doesn't. My own meager progress in learning this skill in
middle-age has left her less-than-impressed ( and I can't blame her there).
Many of us who have always been "drawing-challenged" are intimidated by
the people who draw well naturally, and who did so at a young age. Usually
these "natural talents" are immediately pigeon-holed as future artists
merely for their uncanny hand/eye coordination and ability to record
likeness.
Friends of my younger daughter are twin girls. At a very young age one
twin displayed an ability to draw very well. She was immediatedly
characterized as artistic. At one stage of her childhood she could be seen
in the neighborhood wearing a ridiculous beret. At annual Christmas
parties I always took note of her gifts which included art supplies of
every ilk. And I always wondered, what would happen if the other twin, the
one without "talent" declared an interest in art. No doubt art would just
not be her "area." Well Dannon, Numo, teachers all, I guess that's your
mandate, and a very difficult one it is: to convince that other twin not
only that drawing can be learned, but that art works in mysterious ways.
Unfortuately, I don't think attitudes about drawing have changed much since
I was a kid in the fifties. Your job is tough, and unquestionably noble.
Luck and love to you all-- Kenneth.
Thomas Clark on tue 15 jul 97
This is a really great question. Here are my ideas on it:
Although I think it is really important for each student to have the ability
to draw realistically it is more important to support students in expressing
whatever creativity is right for them.
One of the most powerful things my high school art teacher taught me, is that
because it is realistic it does not necessarily mean that it is better art.
He also had the ability to see that I naturally leaned towards abstract art
and even gave me seperate assignments because of it. Sure I had to do the
self-portrait and still lifes but he supported me greatly in exploring the
type of creativity that came more naturally to me, abstract painting. He even
allowed me to do my painting while others had to finish more still lifes.
So, I may not have a lot of practice in proportionately drawing bodies or
chairs or whatever, but I had the opportunity to express the creativity that I
didn't even have to think about. The kind that came flowing off my brush and
painted the canvas without my mind in it. We all have this amazing well of
creativity ready to burst out and the best thing we can teach students is to
let it out.
Technique is important, so teach students how to draw realistically. However,
by being aware of your students' inner creative needs you may find that some
should move on even before they've gotten drawing realistically down. Support
them in expressing their own inner creativity. Isn't this the joy of teaching
art?
"There is no must in art because art is free."
- Wassily Kandinsky
-Amber Geiger
twochickens@msn.com
In Sapporo, Japan but I'm moving back to the U.S. in just one week and I'm so
EXCITED!! Hope I get to meet some of you someday
Sherry mcDonald Stewart on tue 15 jul 97
When I was in school, drawing was the only art that was offered in Jr.
high school, and I wasn't interested in drawing, I have always been a 3d
person. When I got into college, I did sculpyure, ceramics, art history,
drawing, design, and I was ok with everything but drawing. The first
semester, my instructor was a lecherous old man who wanted to touch all
the girls, and was never there to teach drawing, so by the time I had
already gotten into ceramics shows, I still could not draw, in
perspective very well. I liked portraits. I was in a gallery, and at the
same time taking drawing from a nice man who replaced the old drawing
instructor. He was also in the gallery, and I was so sure he expected
great things from me, that I sweated that drawing class more than any
other class I ever took. I worked my tail off, and in the beginning, you
could see the tension in my drawings, finally at the semesters end, he
told me I had an A, and that I had progressed more than anyone in the
class.(Not that I was better than, just progressed more than) I felt
good about that. I don't have to be best, but I wanted to learn, and I
cried my way through drawing! I feel that I accomplished something.
My kiddo, Daisy, now 13, has always been an excellent artist, because I
think, children just are. If given materials, they will explore, and
learn, and develop. She has never had a lesson, her favorite medium is
drawing, pencil, or pen and ink. She gets drawing books from the
library, "how to draw a dog, etc." but she drew a horse in perspective
at age 3. She just drew what she saw. I am looking forward to her
learning something now from someone who has something to offer her, in
technique. She has her expression, her own te4chnique has been noticed
in schools, and awarded (whew, we needed that!) I believe that is
paramount, expression, and a good instructor can fill in the lost spaces
in whatever a person is lacking, I believe, to bring expression out, and
technique in. At least I hope they gear themselves to be that broad. I
would be disappointed if a teacher couldn't perceive what a student
needs, and supply it.
When I taught adult con't. ceramics, I learned quickly to begin with a
project that no one could possible fail at. impressing clay into a
basket, and sawdust firing. It gave an immediate success to everyone,
and I never had a problem after that. I think it was the most important
thing I learned teaching. The beginning is where you have to make up for
the muddled mistakes of others, and the fears that people have. I
realized that I only had one chance to inspire self confidence before
some adults would just quit. I learned that this really applies to many
people, children and adults alike.
Well, I have painted a large picture here, thank goodness, I'm among
artists, people with soul, who can leap with me. Thats all. Sher
kinoko@junction.net on wed 16 jul 97
Dear Kenneth, Pardon my drop-in, I believe the first mistake is ti attempt
to teach "Art". This immediately sets some persons aside as elites. As
persons with more "Natural" skllls than others. The scond mistake is to set
art on a pedestal as though there were "mysterious ways" inherent in
art.>----------I believe the greatest mistake of all,is to teach Art rather
than to simply teach a familliarity with handskills. Not the least of
reasons for seting-up factories in many Asian countries was for tax
purposes. Many Asian peoples have lived a life-style for hundreds of years
without being,(as are most N.Americans nowadays) isolated from hnadskills.
Whatevder Art may be,it does not grow out of a vacuum but is the-result of
knowledge of the manipulation of materials for common usage. don
m.-----------------Original message----------------------------
>For Dannon, Numo, and all you art teachers out there-- Yes, it is important
>for you to teach representational drawing. It's a valuable skill. For a
>serious artist it is essential to draw reasonably well (I think). That
>drawing can be learned, however, is still something most people don't
>believe. About 5 years ago my own kid said to me (she was 16) "But I Can't
>draw." And I said, "But you could learn how." She did not believe me, and
>probably still doesn't. My own meager progress in learning this skill in
>middle-age has left her less-than-impressed ( and I can't blame her there).
>Many of us who have always been "drawing-challenged" are intimidated by
>the people who draw well naturally, and who did so at a young age. Usually
>these "natural talents" are immediately pigeon-holed as future artists
>merely for their uncanny hand/eye coordination and ability to record
>likeness.
> Friends of my younger daughter are twin girls. At a very young age one
>twin displayed an ability to draw very well. She was immediatedly
>characterized as artistic. At one stage of her childhood she could be seen
>in the neighborhood wearing a ridiculous beret. At annual Christmas
>parties I always took note of her gifts which included art supplies of
>every ilk. And I always wondered, what would happen if the other twin, the
>one without "talent" declared an interest in art. No doubt art would just
>not be her "area." Well Dannon, Numo, teachers all, I guess that's your
>mandate, and a very difficult one it is: to convince that other twin not
>only that drawing can be learned, but that art works in mysterious ways.
>Unfortuately, I don't think attitudes about drawing have changed much since
>I was a kid in the fifties. Your job is tough, and unquestionably noble.
>Luck and love to you all-- Kenneth.
>
>
*****************************************
*****************************************
** Don and Isao Morrill **
** Falkland, B.C. **
** kinoko@junction.net **
*****************************************
*****************************************
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