Craig Fent on sat 30 aug 97
I am not sure that the point is that it is hard to make a living as a potter
as much as it is hard to make a living in any business on your own. I know
quite a few people that have or have had a business and I can't think of any
that complained about money jumping into their pockets while they weren't
looking.
As far as pottery, or any art for that matter, I don't think it is much
different, it is a lot of hard work. I was talking to jeweler last weekend
at an art fair I was in, and we were talking about this very subject. He
makes his living making jewerly, he said he works at it from 7:00am (early
morning person) till 4:00 or 6:00pm at least 5 days a week and somtimes 6 or
7 if need be. Now that's what I call dedication. Somehow when I think of
pottery for a living, it never crossed my mind that I would have to work
longer hours than I do at my regular job. And although it would be something
I would enjoy much more than my current job, 11 hours a day is not exactly
what I had in mind, when there is no gurranty of sucess. That being said I
would do it in a heartbeat if my wifes business would takes off.
Anyway, the point is, all business ventures are hard. And I think any
professor that told their students it was going to be easy would be doing
them a disservice.
If you want to try it and are willing to make some sacrifices and work hard,
then go for it.
Craig Fent
Vince Pitelka on wed 3 sep 97
Hey Folks,
How 'bout if we just drop "lists of names" or "blacklist" from this
discussion??? NO ONE ever suggested that we publish a list of names. My
original post, which I have attempted to clarify in several additional
posts, simply suggested that if there are faculty out there telling students
that studio pottery is not a viable career option, we might post the names
of those faculty on Clayart. Let me elaborate on that by asking that you
describe the specifics of the situation. I am interested in personal
opinions from individual Clayart members regarding faculty who outrightly
condemn the pottery profession as an unrealistic career goal.
We all know that there are a great many career/business goals out there
which are extremely difficult to attain, and require a considerable
investment of capital to start up. Any responsible teacher should be
completely realistic about the difficulties involved in becoming a
professional studio potter, but to deny the possibility altogether in one's
teaching practice is closed-minded and irresponsible.
I appreciate the posts from Leslie Ihde (8/28 post), Bob Bruch, Chris Weeks,
Craig Fent, Sandra Dwiggins, Veronica Shelford, Jim Gorman, Jack McCoy, Erin
Hayes, and David Hendley, and please note that I did not just pick the ones
that agree with me. There were other good ones as well. As for all of you
harping endlessly against publishing lists of names or blacklisting, please
drop it, OK???
Let me point out also, Marshall, that it is not slander if you write an
accurate statement about icompetent or irresponsible teaching practice,
based on personal experience. It is, in fact, a valuable and necessary
service. Teachers are constantly subject to such scrutiny, and they should
be. And Karl, each such post would just be one individual's personal
opinion, which we hope would be based on thorough experience and
documentable behavior, so pull in your claws and call off your law firm.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Ian Hodgson on thu 4 sep 97
There are a couple of points I feel should be made on this thread.
First, what's so special about ceramics/potting? There are many people
with university qualifications in a whole host of subjects who have
been unable even to get a job in their chosen field, let alone make a
living at it. The fact is nobody is guaranteed a living these days.
Second, if you think of ceramics as basically a manufacturing
business, then certain rules or principles apply. It's no good making
things that nobody wants. If you want to make a living making things,
then you have to make what sells. That applies to absolutely
everything. Even writers have to write stories that people will read
if they want to survive as writers. On the other hand, if your
creative desires are so strong that what you make is virtually out of
your control, being driven by the heart or whatever, then you'll have
to be prepared for a certain amount of what we might call sales
resistance, and also be prepared to live maybe on or below the poverty
line. But if that's what you want to do, the choice is yours. One
advantage you will have over, for example, chemists or engineers
unable to get jobs as such, is that there is nothing to stop you
potting. It is hard to be a chemist or engineer on your own. So what
I'm really saying is that for a faculty or teacher to say you'll never
make a living as a potter is really a pointless statement. Perhaps
what they mean is 'I couldn't make a living as a studio potter'. What
they should be saying is that it's tough out there, but if you do want
to make a living as a potter your rewards will be according to the
effort you put in and the care you take in planning and marketing your
products - just like any other manufacturing business.
Ian Hodgson
Canberra, Australia
Talbott on fri 5 sep 97
Vince...
A ceramics teacher is likewise doing a disservice to their students
if they tell them they can make a LIVEABLE wage as a potter DIRECTLY upon
leaving college with their degree in hand. There may be a very, very small
percentage that do but I think if you do some research you will find that I
am correct. The more likely scenario is that they could find a job working
for an established pottery making a rather meager wage and eventually
establish their own business in time if they are fortunate and from that
point earn a living as a potter if they are fortunate... Again a lot of
work, planning, saving, and determination are essential to start and
succeed in owning your own business..... Don't try to win popularity
contest with the students.... just tell it like it really is... That is
what they need to hear. ...Marshall
1ST ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1997)
http://fmc.utm.edu/~dmcbeth/cag/naples.htm
2nd ANNUAL CLAYARTERS' GALLERY - NAPLES, MAINE (Summer 1998)
Details will be forth coming!!!
Celia & Marshall Talbott, Pottery By Celia, Route 114, P O Box 4116,
Naples, Maine 04055-4116,(207)693-6100 voice and fax,(call first)
WBS Live Chat Room, Sat Nites 10 PM EDT & Sun Afternoons at
1 PM EDT Private Room: Clayarters E-MAIL: clupus@ime.net
VICTOR JOHNSTON on fri 5 sep 97
I just joined the group and am going through all the messages.
This one impressed me so much I just had to say "AMEN"
I have had a sideline business in art (variety of 3-D mediums) for about 6
years (my wife told me my habit had to start supporting itself) and it is
just starting to take off because I am finally doing things that I feel good
about and seems to have a strong market. I do a mix of what I like best
and what will sell.
>>> Ian Hodgson 09/04/97 03:57am
>>>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
There are a couple of points I feel should be made on this thread.
First, what's so special about ceramics/potting? There are many
people
with university qualifications in a whole host of subjects who have
been unable even to get a job in their chosen field, let alone make a
living at it. The fact is nobody is guaranteed a living these days.
Second, if you think of ceramics as basically a manufacturing
business, then certain rules or principles apply. It's no good making
things that nobody wants. If you want to make a living making things,
then you have to make what sells. That applies to absolutely
everything. Even writers have to write stories that people will read
if they want to survive as writers. On the other hand, if your
creative desires are so strong that what you make is virtually out of
your control, being driven by the heart or whatever, then you'll have
to be prepared for a certain amount of what we might call sales
resistance, and also be prepared to live maybe on or below the
poverty
line. But if that's what you want to do, the choice is yours. One
advantage you will have over, for example, chemists or engineers
unable to get jobs as such, is that there is nothing to stop you
potting. It is hard to be a chemist or engineer on your own. So what
I'm really saying is that for a faculty or teacher to say you'll never
make a living as a potter is really a pointless statement. Perhaps
what they mean is 'I couldn't make a living as a studio potter'. What
they should be saying is that it's tough out there, but if you do want
to make a living as a potter your rewards will be according to the
effort you put in and the care you take in planning and marketing your
products - just like any other manufacturing business.
Ian Hodgson
Canberra, Australia
Barbara Lewis on sat 6 sep 97
I've made the decision to quit my job with a county arts council in
Maryland. I was hired to work 20 hours a week, but maybe I was too
successful in pumping up the arts because the job has become overwhelming --
not only in aspect of time but responsibility. We are a non-profit with a
volunteer board, me being the paid person, plus they just hired an office
assistant part time. Well, I think this situation is worse than a strictly
volunteer organization because I'm "the paid person" and Board Members don't
seem to feel the weight of the responsibility because I'll pick it up. And,
then when you get into a situation, where a Board Member is also being
abused on their regular job by being underpaid and overworked, passive
agressive acting out can occur. Enough psychobabble (husband is a
psychologist, can I pass the buck).
Anyway, I know we've talked about some of the business aspects with being a
full-time studio artist, but I need help with some thoughts on this. I'm
sure being in business as a full-time potter means that your business
practices evolve as you develop more experience, but would some of you be
willing to share some of your experiences. How did your business evolve?
Did you start out selling to local galleries and then move on to wholesale
shows like the Rosen or ACC shows? I've been selling work through local
galleries, but I've never had enough time to produce enough work to
participate in some really big craft shows. There's a lot to learn --
understanding differences between selling retail and selling wholesale
(gallery contracts, shipping, developing accounts). Maybe there is just a
natural transition and I should relax and take it one step at a time. For a
start, I could spend some time in the studio. What a novel idea! Can't
wait 'til I get the time (mid-October). Thanks, Barbara
Don Jones on tue 9 sep 97
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Anyway, I know we've talked about some of the business aspects with being a
>full-time studio artist, but I need help with some thoughts on this. I'm
>sure being in business as a full-time potter means that your business
>practices evolve as you develop more experience, but would some of you be
>willing to share some of your experiences. How did your business evolve?
>Did you start out selling to local galleries and then move on to wholesale
>shows like the Rosen or ACC shows? I've been selling work through local
>galleries, but I've never had enough time to produce enough work to
>participate in some really big craft shows. There's a lot to learn --
>understanding differences between selling retail and selling wholesale
>(gallery contracts, shipping, developing accounts). Maybe there is just a
>natural transition and I should relax and take it one step at a time. For a
>start, I could spend some time in the studio. What a novel idea! Can't
>wait 'til I get the time (mid-October). Thanks, Barbara
Barbara,
I think that everyone's beginning experience is different on this issue.
Mine was that I couldn't gradually ease into it because I needed the income
right away. Having absolutely no knowledge of the wholesale end of things,
I developed a line of work I felt I could reproduce, built a booth and went
to my first show. From there I got advice and gained knowledge first hand
at the show. It was immediately hectic and scary but very stimulating and
inspiring. There are both good and bad things in retail shows and
wholesale shows. The best advice I can give you if you want to do a
wholesale show is: make sure you really want to reproduce your cheapest
item in large quanitities. Showing up at one of the big shows implies that
you are a serious businessperson as well as an accomlished clay artist.
The buyers will assume you can fill large orders. This seems like odd
advice but burnout is around the corner and you have to find a balance
between filling orders to make a buck and making work which is satisfying
to you as a clay artist.
Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
kinoko@junction.net on wed 10 sep 97
Barbara, If you love what you are doing,keep your day job...which is usually
stupid enough to allow you to think clay while doing some foolishness. Do
your own claywork in your own way. Throw most of it in the slop bucket.
Ta'hell with the customers,gallery types,(always willing to 'suggest'
improvements to your work.) Do not sell at aloss,(this hurts us all).
Consignment may be useful but only if you can get an iron-clad agreement on
price. If consignment has a saving grace it is only that it makes room in
your own studio to produce that one worthwhile piece. Prepare to live on
Welfare,on the edge of hunger. If you truly love,do not betray yourself. Don
M. & Isao.>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>>Anyway, I know we've talked about some of the business aspects with being a
>>full-time studio artist, but I need help with some thoughts on this. I'm
>>sure being in business as a full-time potter means that your business
>>practices evolve as you develop more experience, but would some of you be
>>willing to share some of your experiences. How did your business evolve?
>>Did you start out selling to local galleries and then move on to wholesale
>>shows like the Rosen or ACC shows? I've been selling work through local
>>galleries, but I've never had enough time to produce enough work to
>>participate in some really big craft shows. There's a lot to learn --
>>understanding differences between selling retail and selling wholesale
>>(gallery contracts, shipping, developing accounts). Maybe there is just a
>>natural transition and I should relax and take it one step at a time. For a
>>start, I could spend some time in the studio. What a novel idea! Can't
>>wait 'til I get the time (mid-October). Thanks, Barbara
>
>Barbara,
>
>I think that everyone's beginning experience is different on this issue.
>Mine was that I couldn't gradually ease into it because I needed the income
>right away. Having absolutely no knowledge of the wholesale end of things,
>I developed a line of work I felt I could reproduce, built a booth and went
>to my first show. From there I got advice and gained knowledge first hand
>at the show. It was immediately hectic and scary but very stimulating and
>inspiring. There are both good and bad things in retail shows and
>wholesale shows. The best advice I can give you if you want to do a
>wholesale show is: make sure you really want to reproduce your cheapest
>item in large quanitities. Showing up at one of the big shows implies that
>you are a serious businessperson as well as an accomlished clay artist.
>The buyers will assume you can fill large orders. This seems like odd
>advice but burnout is around the corner and you have to find a balance
>between filling orders to make a buck and making work which is satisfying
>to you as a clay artist.
>
>Don Jones
>claysky@highfiber.com
>
*****************************************
*****************************************
** Don and Isao Morrill **
** Falkland, B.C. **
** kinoko@junction.net **
*****************************************
*****************************************
Corinne P. Null on mon 15 sep 97
> Do not sell at aloss,(this hurts us all).
A friend has been suggesting that my work is underpriced at the gallery
where we have our work. Mugs are $10, cereal/soup bowls are $10, plates
range from $10-14.
I do not feel my work is "beautiful" yet - it is merely serviceable. I
have the basic shapes down, but lack the florishes that make them
"special"; that way of attaching the handle, the graceful curve of the
bowl, and the glaze application techniques are still rudimentary overlap
dips and drips.
My teachers' work is also sold in this store. There is NO WAY I can price
my stuff equal to hers.
I have to keep making stuff to get better, it does sell so I can get rid of
it and have room to make more, and I make enough to buy more supplies to
keep practicing.
Am I doing anyone a disservice with this marketing strategy? Will I ever
get to feel like the work is more than just adequate?
Appreciate your comments,
Corinne
Corinne Null
Bedford, NH
cnull@MCIONE.com (New e-mail address)
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