peter pinnell on tue 14 may 96
Yes Mark, I know this has been covered before, which is why I hesitated to
bring it up again. However, I thought it was obvious from some of the
kiln questions that the writers were not aware of this information, most
likely because they have just recently joined the list.
Yes, life is full of risks, but knowing and understanding those risks
allows a person to minimize them where possible. I drive a car every
day, but I avoid high risk streets at certain times of day, and on icy
days I take the bus. Understanding the risks of driving helps me to
control them.
The lab animals that developed cancers from ceramic fiber were NOT exposed
to "thousand and thousands of times" what we are. In fact, their exposure
was in the order of a couple of milligrams per cubic meter of air. I hate
to tell you, but this is a heck of a lot less than is released when a
potter casually tears off a chunk of fiber to stuff a crack in a kiln. Of
course the animals were exposed to those amounts twenty four hours a day,
while most potters are exposed only periodically.
How does it change things that we as potters tend to expose ourselves to
high amounts of fiber on a periodic basis, while the test animals had a
constant, low-level level exposure? How does it change things that they are
rats, mice and gerbels, while we are humans? How does it change things
that we (potters) as a group represent both genders, a wide range of ages,
and the complete range of health and fitness? How does it change things
that some of us come from genetic backrounds free of cancer, while others
(like my wife, for instance) come from families where practically everyone
dies of cancer?
There are so many variables that it is impossible for even the most
informed expert to predict who will get cancer, and at what level of
exposure. While many, many asbestos workers developed cancer from their
job-related exposures, many more (a large majority) did not.
Its my opinion that the fiber manufacturers have behaved very responsibly.
They are the ones who have sponsored the testing and published the
results through their industry association, The Refractory Ceramic
Fibers Coalition. Based on their research, they publish information on
what they believe is the safe use of fiber. From their literature:
"Are RCFs safe to manufacture, install and use?"
"yes, when recommended work practices are STRICTLY ADHERED TO."
(emphasis mine).
And what are those recommended work practices? They include the following:
"Use engineering controls, such as local exhaust or dust collecting
systems to minimize airborne dust."
"Use appropriate NIOSH/MSHA approved respirators to avoid breathing fiber
particulates and dust."
"Wear full body clothing, gloves, hat and eye protection."
"Clean up with high efficiency particulate air (hepa) filtered vacuum or
wet sweeping."
"If you take work clothing home, it is recommended you vacuum your
clothes with a HEPA filtered vacuum before leaving the work area."
"Wash work clothes separately from other clothing. Rinse washer after use."
Do you know many potters who "strictly adhere" to these practices? Mind
you, these are just the ones recommended by the fiber manufacturers.
They are much less stringent than those recommended by the AFL-CIO, (not
surprisingly).
I like your knife analogy. Yes, I keep very sharp knives in my home (I
like to cook), but it is with an understanding of both the potential
dangers, and the ways to minimize those dangers. On the other hand, I do
not let my three-year-old son play with them (despite his many vociferous
requests). Joe is quite confident in his abilitiy to use a sharp knife,
but his is a confidence based in ignorance: he neither appreciates the
danger, nor understands the methods for minimizing it.
I am certainly not saying that no one should ever use ceramic fiber. I'm
only saying that people should know about it before using it. Fiber has
very real thermal advantages in some situations, but at other times it is
quite inferior to other, safer refractorys such as ifb. I think that we
have become a bit too casual in its use. If we are going to use it, we
should do so with the knowledge and experience of an adult, and not with
the blind confidence of a three year old child.
Sorry about the length of this post.
Pete Pinnell
BTW, there have been animal studies done on gravel dust (calcium
carbonate). It is not a carcinogen at any level of exposure. However,
breathing large amounts over long periods of time can cause other
respiratory problems.
katie rose on wed 15 may 96
pete,
what is the refractory ifb?
TIA
***********************
katie rose
raven@sedona.net
"Love is the reflection of God's unity in the world of duality. It
constitutes the entire significance of creation." (Meher Baba)
Henry Pope on wed 15 may 96
At 02:31 PM 5/14/96 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Yes Mark, I know this has been covered before, which is why I hesitated to
>bring it up again. However, I thought it was obvious from some of the
>kiln questions that the writers were not aware of this information, most
>likely because they have just recently joined the list.
>
>Yes, life is full of risks, but knowing and understanding those risks
>allows a person to minimize them where possible. I drive a car every
>day, but I avoid high risk streets at certain times of day, and on icy
>days I take the bus. Understanding the risks of driving helps me to
>control them.
>
>The lab animals that developed cancers from ceramic fiber were NOT exposed
>to "thousand and thousands of times" what we are. In fact, their exposure
>was in the order of a couple of milligrams per cubic meter of air. I hate
>to tell you, but this is a heck of a lot less than is released when a
>potter casually tears off a chunk of fiber to stuff a crack in a kiln. Of
>course the animals were exposed to those amounts twenty four hours a day,
>while most potters are exposed only periodically.
>
>How does it change things that we as potters tend to expose ourselves to
>high amounts of fiber on a periodic basis, while the test animals had a
>constant, low-level level exposure? How does it change things that they are
>rats, mice and gerbels, while we are humans? How does it change things
>that we (potters) as a group represent both genders, a wide range of ages,
>and the complete range of health and fitness? How does it change things
>that some of us come from genetic backrounds free of cancer, while others
>(like my wife, for instance) come from families where practically everyone
>dies of cancer?
>
>There are so many variables that it is impossible for even the most
>informed expert to predict who will get cancer, and at what level of
>exposure. While many, many asbestos workers developed cancer from their
>job-related exposures, many more (a large majority) did not.
>
>Its my opinion that the fiber manufacturers have behaved very responsibly.
>They are the ones who have sponsored the testing and published the
>results through their industry association, The Refractory Ceramic
>Fibers Coalition. Based on their research, they publish information on
>what they believe is the safe use of fiber. From their literature:
>
>"Are RCFs safe to manufacture, install and use?"
>"yes, when recommended work practices are STRICTLY ADHERED TO."
>(emphasis mine).
>
>And what are those recommended work practices? They include the following:
>"Use engineering controls, such as local exhaust or dust collecting
>systems to minimize airborne dust."
>
>"Use appropriate NIOSH/MSHA approved respirators to avoid breathing fiber
>particulates and dust."
>
>"Wear full body clothing, gloves, hat and eye protection."
>
>"Clean up with high efficiency particulate air (hepa) filtered vacuum or
>wet sweeping."
>
>"If you take work clothing home, it is recommended you vacuum your
>clothes with a HEPA filtered vacuum before leaving the work area."
>
>"Wash work clothes separately from other clothing. Rinse washer after use."
>
>Do you know many potters who "strictly adhere" to these practices? Mind
>you, these are just the ones recommended by the fiber manufacturers.
>They are much less stringent than those recommended by the AFL-CIO, (not
>surprisingly).
>
>I like your knife analogy. Yes, I keep very sharp knives in my home (I
>like to cook), but it is with an understanding of both the potential
>dangers, and the ways to minimize those dangers. On the other hand, I do
>not let my three-year-old son play with them (despite his many vociferous
>requests). Joe is quite confident in his abilitiy to use a sharp knife,
>but his is a confidence based in ignorance: he neither appreciates the
>danger, nor understands the methods for minimizing it.
>
>I am certainly not saying that no one should ever use ceramic fiber. I'm
>only saying that people should know about it before using it. Fiber has
>very real thermal advantages in some situations, but at other times it is
>quite inferior to other, safer refractorys such as ifb. I think that we
>have become a bit too casual in its use. If we are going to use it, we
>should do so with the knowledge and experience of an adult, and not with
>the blind confidence of a three year old child.
>
>Sorry about the length of this post.
>
>Pete Pinnell
>
>BTW, there have been animal studies done on gravel dust (calcium
>carbonate). It is not a carcinogen at any level of exposure. However,
>breathing large amounts over long periods of time can cause other
>respiratory problems.
Hello Fiber Factions - Six or so years ago I contacted fiber
manufacturers--A.P. Green, Babcox & Wilcox, and others--re the hazards of
fiber. Very chatty they were, but no straight answers. All silicates, it
was informed, are converted at reasonably low temps. (beginning around 1600
degs F.) to crystobolite, which the manufacturers seemed to be implying or
perhaps were afraid acted in a similar fashion to asbestos. The crystobolite
formation takes place in insulating firebrick as well as fiber blanke: in
fact in any clay product with available silica. I couldn't get any straight
answers regarding the dangers of crystobolite. The testing was still being
done. Silica in itself didn't seem to worry the manufacturers--as long as
it was treated with the usual care--as much as the perhaps-to-be-dreaded
chrystobolite. I haven't updated my information fiber blanket, though I use
the material. I notice that kiln manufacturers (Bailey, for one) are
beginning to back away from fiber use in kiln construction.
The controversy is hardly academic, though there is no easy resolution. It
struck me that the refractory manufacturers when contacted six years ago, or
so, didn't want to get stuck with an asbestos type cover up and snafu. (Yes
I've cut up asbestos board with a skill saw. Yuk. And am a hole lot more
than upset with the industry) However, frankly I was confused by their
irresoluteness. Is the situation any clearer now? Of course I should do my
own phoning. But it doesn't do to have a lot of loose information plying
the netwaves. Do we now know what specifically is the cause of ill health
and possibly death in persons handling this material; or, have there been
symptons in humans? It seems unlikely that silica itself is the culprit.
It's been aroung a long time; though perhaps this is a particularly
dangerous form of it? The exposure to silica dust I should think is much
greater when mixing glazes than in loading and unloading a fiber-lined kiln.
But perhaps there is new research regarding silica.
I have tried carborundum's fiber coating but found it simply created
spalling. The manufacturers themsleves whom I contacted recommended coating
of any brand only as a last resort. Leave well enough alone was the message.
My info is outdated. Can those better informed lead us to the specific
articles on these matters? It is possible to use IFB as a substitute for
blanket. Is this what we should be doing? What is a reasonable approach?
To be sure, the manufacturers are going to be ultra conservative and
cautious in recommending safety procedures, which would be impossible to
comply with in a small financially strapped studio. And still the product
is manufactured.
What a muddle.
Henry Pope
Charlottesville, VA
Nils Lou on wed 15 may 96
IFB=Insulating Fire Brick
On Wed, 15 May 1996, katie rose wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> pete,
>
> what is the refractory ifb?
>
> TIA
>
>
> ***********************
> katie rose
> raven@sedona.net
>
> "Love is the reflection of God's unity in the world of duality. It
> constitutes the entire significance of creation." (Meher Baba)
>
Karoleana Roberts on wed 23 oct 96
>Hi, I am a new subscriber to Clayart. I have been studying ceramics
>for
>about a year and a half. I am interested in kiln construction and
>theory
>with emphasis on ceramic fiber refractory materials. Any information,
>sources, experience with ceramic fiber would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks,
>Karoleana.
WardBurner@aol.com on wed 23 oct 96
Kaoleana,
The issue of ceramic fiber is a can of worms that has been opened many times
on ClayArt. You're going to get the range of "it's the greatest thing since
sliced bread" to "this stuff is worse than radioactive fallout". Many swear
by it, others won't go near it. Good Luck.....
From my nagging, my friend Robert rebuilt his brick kiln, made it an all
fiber kiln, cut 4 hours off his firing time, cut his propane bill in half,
and his pots look better than they've ever looked.... I quess you know where
I stand on the issue.
Only in a rich country do people recycle their cans because they care about
the planet, then use gobs of fossil fuel firing inefficient kilns....
Marc Ward
Ward Burner Systems
PO Box 333
Dandridge, TN 37725
USA
423.397.2914 voice
423.397.1253 fax
wardburner@aol.com
Karoleana asked:
>Hi, I am a new subscriber to Clayart. I have been studying ceramics
>for
>about a year and a half. I am interested in kiln construction and
>theory
>with emphasis on ceramic fiber refractory materials. Any information,
>sources, experience with ceramic fiber would be greatly appreciated.
Mary Hays on thu 24 oct 96
contact Bracker Ceramics, in Lawrence Kansas #(913) 841-4750
They carry ceramic fiber and are extremely helpful with questions and info.
bobk on sat 27 mar 99
------------------
Anyone know where I can find some actual analytical work (not =22it makes me
nervous=22 kind of stuff), on the worker safety issues associated with =
ceramic
fiber (either batt or board) insulation?
Regards,
Robert Kirby
CWC/PNWER
999 Third Avenue, suite 1060
Seattle, WA 98104
bobk=40cwc.org
Clay Coordinator on tue 14 aug 01
Matt,
A "class c" carcinogen means it has been found to cause cancer in animal =
studies.
That does not mean that it is proven to be carcinogenic in humans. But =
it surely does not mean that, as you say, it is not "extremely =
dangerous".=20
Companies do not issue warnings like this if the product is safe.
Thanks for the sources you supplied. Below I have highlighted some =
phrases you may have over looked.
Your own personal belief and opinion about fibers does not negate the =
facts. You are entitled to believe what ever you like but do not tell =
the "list" that fibers are "not dangerous". That is, unless you have =
scientific evidence to disprove these industry warnings. In which, case =
I am sure everyone is listening.
The State of California, pursuant to Proposition 65, The Safe Drinking =
Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986, has listed "ceramic fibers =
(airborne fibers of respirable size)" as a chemical known to the State =
of California to cause cancer.
IARC's (International Agency for Research on Cancer) valuation of =
crystalline silica states "Crystalline silica inhaled in the form of =
quartz or cristobalite from occupational sources is carcinogenic to =
humans (Group 1)" and additionally notes "carcinogenicity in humans was =
not detected in all industrial circumstances studied" (IARC Monograph =
Vol. 68, 1997). NTP lists all polymorphs of crystalline silica amongst =
substances which may "reasonably be anticipated to be carcinogens".=20
The Commission of The European Communities (DG XI) has classified RCF as =
a substance that should be regarded as if it is carcinogenic to man.
CHRONIC EFFECT=20
There has been no increased incidence of respiratory disease in studies =
examining occupationally exposed workers. Long-term, high-dose exposure =
to specially prepared fibers which are respirable by rodents has =
resulted in fibrosis, lung cancer, and mesothelioma in rodents (rats or =
hamsters).=20
John Britt
Penland=20
Matt MacIntire on wed 15 aug 01
I didn't (and don't) claim to be an hazardous materials expert. Nor do I
recall urging anyone to use ceramic fibers carelessly. I just don't feel
that we need to be so terribly afraid we get cancer from occasional low
level exposure, especially if we use normal precautions. The facts are what
they are, I don't dispute there is an identifiable risk. I am just not as
worried by this particular risk as you seem to be. That is my personal
decision. Everyone else must make informed choices for themselves based on
the information which is readily available to us all.
I imagine our two positions are more similar than we might admit at first.
Maybe our language is what differs...?
I did not feel that I overlooked any of the statements which you
highlighted. In fact, I alluded to one of them as a weakness in my
position, by suggesting that the shape and size of ceramic fibers would tend
to implicate them as a more dangerous aerosol particulate than ordinary
quartz dust.
Allow me to explain why I feel the way I do, since what we are talking about
is really an emotional difference, not a dispute over facts...
My point is on this topic is that I don't believe we must live in constant
fear if we bring ceramic fibers into our studio. Certainly we should use
them intelligently, and fully understand the risks. But I feel we are all
exposed to much greater threats every day which we willingly accept. We use
silica. We inhale smoke, and raku fumes. We use Barium. We use Lithium.
I'd wager that the chances that I will die in a car accident are much higher
than my chances of getting cancer from Kaowool. Yet I drive a car everyday.
Even our food is suspect these days. I don't think anyone would suggest we
cease all these extremely hazardous activities. We must lead our lives.
That involves choices AND risks.
We must each wade through the vast amounts of cautionary information we are
bombarded with. My sense from all these warnings is that the world is an
EXTREMELY dangerous place. It is a wonder that any of us make it
past age 30. Yet we humans manage to survive in great numbers. I certainly
don't deny the enormous risks. There is risk in every daily endeavor we
undertake. I just feel that some risks are greater than others. I think we
all must decide what matters to us and choose what level of risk we are
willing to accept. I accept some risks that go along with making pottery.
I don't go out of my way to expose myself to any danger, but I accept a
moderate level of exposure to various dangers. It seems unavoidable to me.
If I get cancer from mineral fibers, I will attribute it to working as a
carpenter in an environment where fiberglass insulation was widely used. I
have installed fiberglass insulation many times, even in my own home. I
used a respirator most of the time, but was doubtless exposed much more than
ever I will be to ceramic fiber. It was a risk I took, just like driving my
old car over the highway to get to a friends wood kiln.
I do not mean to dismiss these serious studies. I applaud the contribution
of folks such as yourself who raise our general awareness of the hazards of
our daily activities. I simply refuse to live my life in constant fear of
any and all carcinogens. I make reasonable efforts to avoid unnecessary
risks, but I am not afraid to be around carcinogenic materials when
necessary. Instead I am careful to use them wisely and keep my exposure
minimal. That seems cautious enough for me.
best wishes,
Matt
Clay Coordinator on thu 16 aug 01
Matt,
I am sure we are not as far off as sometimes e-mail messages convey.
I think the problem is in "scale". The safety warning is for the large =
group. Oftentimes we are talking about the individual, and the two get =
confused.
Use, for example Marc Ward's reference to the class 1 carcinogen, the =
sun. This implies that since we all are out in the sun, the sun warms =
us, grows our food, therefore the sun is not really a problem. Because =
we are all still alive and have had no adverse effects to the sun. In =
fact, we all like the sun.
But as the statisticians will tell you, skin cancer is the most common =
cancer in the U. S. So for the individual, going out into the sun for =
a day of fishing, it is not really that frightful. But the accumulated =
exposure might be a problem, you never now. For the group, we know that =
x percent of people will get skin cancer and die from it. At one point =
they did not have definitive data establishing the link between skin =
cancer and the sun. I am sure at some point in the study it was classed =
as a possible carcinogen. I am sure at that point people were saying we =
were worried unnecessarily.
Back to Marc's example, you would never want to imply to a skin cancer =
victim that there was not a danger in lathering up with baby oil and =
sitting by the pool. Or to the thousands of widows and widowers. =20
But to the individual who is unaffected, then it is an absurd warning.
The problem is you never know who is susceptible to skin cancer or in =
this case to the adverse effects of fibers. In the days of mining =
vermiculite in Libby, Montana no one believed it was a problem. Until =
enough people we injured and sick. =20
Do you want to be the person to discourage proper safety practices? Of =
course not.
Until all the evidence is in, I think we should take the MSDS warnings =
seriously. If fiber is classed as a 2b carcinogen then that is a =
serious warning. They minute that the industry changes the MSDS sheets =
to say that ceramic fiber is completely safe then I will act =
accordiningly. They have many lawyers and studies to back up their =
warnings. No industry wants to put class 2b carcinogen warning on their =
product. They do it for a very good reason.
So we should be prudent with our advice on safety. Especially because =
people are generally lazy. They will heed warnings for a while until =
they are inconvenienced and then ignore them. That is why we must be =
strict with warnings and treat them in a serious manner.
I am sure we will all want to find that fiber is completely non-toxic. =
But if it is found to be cancerous in 3% of humans who have blonde hair =
and blue eyes after an average dormancy period of 33.25 years post =
ingestion, then we will look back on these e-mail messages with regret.
So I think you should do what you want with your own life and health. =
Practical application is your business. But pooh-poohing MSDS warnings =
to the group is probably ill advised.
I hope that is understandable.
John Britt
Penland
Matt MacIntire on fri 17 aug 01
JB>> So we should be prudent with our advice on safety.
JB>> Especially because people are generally lazy.
Your points are well made, John. I think I understand what you are saying,
and I must admit that I have come to agree.
Public comments should be appropriate for the context in which they are
made. It is best to err on the side of extra caution, and to supply all the
appropriate warnings. Folks can make their own personal choices, once they
are properly informed.
regards,
Matt
mel jacobson on wed 18 jan 06
one thing to be very concerned about when
buying ceramic fiber....there are many grades of quality.
ask the folks at fire brick supply` you can get most anything
you want, any price...the cheap stuff just falls apart.
if you buy the best grade of fiber...it does not shed, or
puff all over when working with it.
it holds up for years. same for flue liners etc.
i have had some real sob stories with itc complaints.
(of course they come to me and say...you said itc was good stuff,
it pulled my fiber right apart.)
they were using the cheapest crap fiber you can buy.
it had no structure. of course it was the fault of itc in their mind.
i am sure that folks like hank murrow can give us some
important comment on this subject. he knows fiber.
i just know i do not buy fiber from `jack nelson screen door, hard drive
and ceramic fiber company LLC` `We sell raisins too, in season`.
mel
from mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://my.pclink.com/~melpots3
Hank Murrow on wed 18 jan 06
On Jan 18, 2006, at 3:42 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> one thing to be very concerned about when
> buying ceramic fiber....there are many grades of quality.
> ask the folks at fire brick supply` you can get most anything you
> want, any price...the cheap stuff just falls apart. if you buy the
> best grade of fiber...it does not shed, or
> puff all over when working with it. it holds up for years. same for
> flue liners etc.
>
> i have had some real sob stories with itc complaints.
> (of course they come to me and say...you said itc was good stuff, it
> pulled my fiber right apart.) they were using the cheapest crap fiber
> you can buy. it had no structure. of course it was the fault of itc
> in their mind.
>
> i am sure that folks like hank murrow can give us some
> important comment on this subject. he knows fiber.
Dear Mel et al;
I have been using fiber from the Erwin TN plant(now called Vesuvius)
since '83. Jim Clark of Clark Art Glass & Refractories was selling
their 'off-spec' rolls. Now, I can hear the moans all the way to Eugene
at this statement, because "Hank is using off-spec fiber". Whoa up here
pardners: because off-spec to Jim is fiber which is thicker than
normal. More fiber folks! And the quality and price were outstanding.
Best I had found anywhere. Now, Jim has decided to use his warehouse
for his glass business, so I bought the last of his super high duty
fiber (less than 1% shrinkage at Cone 11) to line any future kilns
with. This is the stuff I re-lined the kiln I built in '85 for the
Shadbolt Arts Centre in Burnaby, BC recently.
Linda Doherty wrote a nice article (published only online by Ceramics
Monthly), "The Kiln of a Thousand Fires" about the design. Actually,
went 1052 firings to Cone 10 before we re-lined. Now it is ready for
another 1000. Fuel cost averaged $18 per cone 10 firing.
Mel is right about ceramic fiber. Design your kiln for fiber (not
brick) and use good stuff (I tested all available fiber for fired
shrinkage before committing to it), and you can expect both fuel
savings and long usage.
Cheers, Hank
www.murrow.biz/hank
Kathy Forer on sun 17 aug 08
I'm putting a 2.6 cu ft kiln on blocks. I tried to level four cement
blocks as best I could but the top surface remains slightly uneven.
Looking around the studio for something to put between the blocks and
the kiln base I found this fiber sheet that was given as a sample at
the last NCECA I went to in Baltimore.
It's about 1/4" and flexible. My sheet is only 12"x12".
http://gallery.me.com/kef/100143
Does anyone know where I can get something similar but larger,
24"x24" or four pieces? It doesn't seem to be what's described as
ceramic fiber blanket and is too thin for the ceramic board at
WardBurner and BaileyPottery. It's compressed something and probably
very basic.
I've googled ceramic fiber and am having a hard time finding anyone
but wholesale manufacturers in China selling by the ton or retail of
the two products that don't seem to be right. Does anyone know what
this is and where I can find it? Thanks!
Collateral questions:
What's the best way to level block? I started with the highest
one and went from there but it was still just barely out of plumb,
just enough to throw off a flat surface above.
Is this the right stuff to use between a kiln and uneven base?
Kathy in NJ
Arnold Howard on mon 18 aug 08
From: "Kathy Forer"
> What's the best way to level block? I started with the
> highest
> one and went from there but it was still just barely out
> of plumb,
> just enough to throw off a flat surface above.
Kathy, a steel kiln stand is easier to level than cinder
blocks on an uneven surface, because there are only four
legs in contact with the floor.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Tony Ferguson on mon 18 aug 08
Kathy,
Use some sand underneath to level your block. Gravel may work as well. As for the fiber board, I got mine here;
Smith Sharp Fire Brick Supply 866-545-6743
http://www.ssfbs.com/
Call and tell Donna what you are doing and what you are thinking. She will make recommendations. Any fiber board has a starch in it that once fired, the board become weakened. I suspect there are new boards since I got mine and I know there is a hard board out their now. Talk to her, she will help you.
Tony Ferguson
Take Care,
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Kathy Forer on mon 18 aug 08
Arnold, I was trying to save money and I had a couple spare cinder
blocks. But I didn't realize how much time it would take or trouble it
would be. I used a level in all four directions and crosswise as well
and still it was slightly uneven. The whole thing became an academic
exercise and insight into how much of a challenge and trouble the big
ones can be if you don't have experience with what needs to be done.
Agreed, given an uneven floor, a kiln stand is definitely the way to
go for a small 23" kiln.
Kathy
On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:03 AM, Arnold Howard wrote:
> Kathy, a steel kiln stand is easier to level than cinder
> blocks on an uneven surface, because there are only four
> legs in contact with the floor.
Kathy Forer on mon 18 aug 08
On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Tony Ferguson wrote:
> Use some sand underneath to level your block. Gravel may work as
> well. As for the fiber board, I got mine here;
>
> Smith Sharp Fire Brick Supply 866-545-6743
>
> http://www.ssfbs.com/
>
> Call and tell Donna what you are doing and what you are thinking.
> She will make recommendations. Any fiber board has a starch in it
> that once fired, the board become weakened. I suspect there are new
> boards since I got mine and I know there is a hard board out their
> now. Talk to her, she will help you.
Wow, Tony, thanks. Donna was terrificly helpful. She explained that
ceramic blanket for 2300k degrees is made in narrower widths than the
standard 1".
Sold by the square foot in rolls, 1/4" blanket has 8 lb density and
1/8" has 12 lb density. 48" width.
There's also ceramic fiber paper rated to 970k which has a binder for
a paper-like surface, though also available without binder. 24" rolls.
Board is also made in other than standard widths, including 1/4" for a
2' x 4' board.
Manufacturers are Unifrax and Thermal Ceramics, Niagara Falls and
Augusta, Georgia, respectively. Donna even suggested there would be a
supplier closer to my New Jersey address, but it would be hard not to
buy from someplace where sales is so nice and knowledgeable.
Why did I need this again?
Kathy
Kathy Forer on mon 18 aug 08
oops, that's 2300 degrees Fahrenheit.
> ceramic blanket for 2300k degrees
KEF
Frank Colson on mon 18 aug 08
Kathy- Have Harbison-Walker send you a catalogue for your files! They can
provide you with any, and all, types of ceramic fiber. They have suppliers
over the entire country. Used to be APGreen! Call at 1 800 887 555 and ask
which supplier is closest to you!
Frank Colson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Ferguson"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: ceramic fiber
> Kathy,
>
> Use some sand underneath to level your block. Gravel may work as well.
> As for the fiber board, I got mine here;
>
> Smith Sharp Fire Brick Supply 866-545-6743
>
> http://www.ssfbs.com/
>
> Call and tell Donna what you are doing and what you are thinking. She
> will make recommendations. Any fiber board has a starch in it that once
> fired, the board become weakened. I suspect there are new boards since I
> got mine and I know there is a hard board out their now. Talk to her, she
> will help you.
>
> Tony Ferguson
>
>
>
> Take Care,
>
>
>
> Tony Ferguson
>
>
> ...where the sky meets the lake...
>
> http://www.tonyferguson.net
Vince Pitelka on mon 18 aug 08
Frank Colson wrote:
Kathy- Have Harbison-Walker send you a catalogue for your files! They
can provide you with any, and all, types of ceramic fiber. They have
suppliers over the entire country. Used to be APGreen! Call at 1 800 88=
7
555 and ask which supplier is closest to you!
Frank -
Just to clarify, Harbison-Walker was a stand-alone company while AP Green
was still operating, and they purchased AP Green. Now, AP Green, Harbiso=
n
Walker, and North American Refractories are all combined under the
corporation ANH Refractories Company. I am sure that most of their
products are just fine, but we did have problems with a batch of Mizzou
castable, and it makes me worry that they may have changed some of the ol=
d
AP Green formulas. Mizzou used to be one of the standard super-duty
castables for burner ports, flue and damper lintels, and fireboxes lining=
s
in salt kilns, but it no longer holds up well under that kind of service.=
=20
Something has changed.
I expect that they would be a good source for all kinds of ceramic fiber,
as you suggest.
- Vince
--=20
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
James and Sherron Bowen on mon 18 aug 08
You could try Thermal Ceramics, too. They have a web site
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vince Pitelka"
To:
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: ceramic fiber
Frank Colson wrote:
Kathy- Have Harbison-Walker send you a catalogue for your files! They
can provide you with any, and all, types of ceramic fiber. They have
suppliers over the entire country. Used to be APGreen! Call at 1 800 887
555 and ask which supplier is closest to you!
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