Cindy on tue 4 mar 97
> Big deal? The cost difference of .09 per pound versus .22 per pound is a
> big deal
Yes, this is a major difference, but how much clay do you have to use to
pay for a 4K+ investment in the Peter Pugger? Plus the time it takes to
make your own? At what point does a potter go through enough clay to
justify the expense of this type of equipment? (I'm not challenging you--I
truly want the information to make a decision.)
Last night I mixed clay - I did 700
> pounds and it took me about two hours. I store in in long pugs, standing
> upright in a large plastic container I got a Kmart. I also know that
> whatever I want to go into that clay, it is in there. I do not have to
> take my clay body on faith. The cost is a big deal when you buy more than
a
> few hundred pounds.
I buy (at my present rate of throwing--and I'm new) about 2-3 tons a year.
So far, I've been happy with the quality of the clay. Even with the
consideration that I have to have it shipped, or have my traveling friends
pick it up, it would still take quite a few years for the cost difference
to make up the cost of the equipment. Space isn't a problem--for once in my
life I have more space than I need, but even so, the investment in a pugger
doesn't seem likely to pay for itself anytime soon. I'd be interested in
any opinions either agreeable or contrary to mine. Thanks in advance for
any advice.
Cindy in the Black Hills--where we have entire red cliffs of beautiful
clay, but no one interested in mining it. (Well, it's too beautiful to dig
it all up anyway, but they could get it from the prairie, I suppose.)
Dannon Rhudy on wed 5 mar 97
Cindy,
The cost difference (9 cents v. 20 cents or whatever) can also
be thought of in terms of the percentage of cost/per/piece
the clay amounts to. Clay is the cheapest item that a potter
has to deal with. If you use a pound of clay to make a mug with
handle, the cost of the clay is the cheapest part. If you make
a thousand of those mugs, the clay is still the cheapest part.
If you use 5 pounds of clay to throw a dinner plate, the cost
of the clay is going to be somewhere between 45 cents and
a dollar. And it will still be the cheapest part, even if, after
trimming the foot, you throw away your scrap and never recycle
an ounce of it.
Whether you choose to mix your own clay or not should probably
depend on whether you just prefer your own to commercial, and
how you value your time, and where you want to spend it. I mix
my own clay here, because it is convenient to do so, equipment is
there and materials. But if I were setting up a studio, and had
to buy all the equipment - probably not. I know at least two
production potters who have commercial places mix their clay
for them (to their own recipe/requirements) and they use tons
a year. But they find their time more profitably spent at the
wheel and glaze table.
I haven't been following this make/buy thread until today, so
don't know if all this has been gone over ad nauseum. Thought
it might be useful to look at it from cost/per/piece angle.
Dannon Rhudy
potter@koyote.com
-----------------------Original
message----------------------------
Yes, this is a major difference, but how much clay do you have to
use to
pay for a 4K+ investment in the Peter Pugger? Plus the time it
takes to
make your own? At what point does a potter go through enough clay
to
justify the expense of this type of equipment? (I'm not
challenging you--I
truly want the information to make a decision.)
Last night I mixed clay - I did 700
> pounds and it took me about two hours. I store in in long pugs,
standing
> upright in a large plastic container I got a Kmart. I also know
that
> whatever I want to go into that clay, it is in there. I do not
have to
> take my clay body on faith. The cost is a big deal when you buy
more than
a
> few hundred pounds.
I buy (at my present rate of throwing--and I'm new) about 2-3 tons
a year.
So far, I've been happy with the quality of the clay. Even with
the
consideration that I have to have it shipped, or have my traveling
friends
pick it up, it would still take quite a few years for the cost
difference
to make up the cost of the equipment. Space isn't a problem--for
once in my
life I have more space than I need, but even so, the investment in
a pugger
doesn't seem likely to pay for itself anytime soon. I'd be
interested in
any opinions either agreeable or contrary to mine. Thanks in
advance for
any advice.
Cindy in the Black Hills--where we have entire red cliffs of
beautiful
clay, but no one interested in mining it. (Well, it's too
beautiful to dig
it all up anyway, but they could get it from the prairie, I
suppose.)
Vince Pitelka on wed 5 mar 97
At 06:59 AM 3/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Big deal? The cost difference of .09 per pound versus .22 per pound is a
>> big deal
>
>Yes, this is a major difference, but how much clay do you have to use to
>pay for a 4K+ investment in the Peter Pugger? Plus the time it takes to
>make your own? At what point does a potter go through enough clay to
>justify the expense of this type of equipment?
I don't think this is a question of saving money by mixing your own clay,
unless you are talking about large cottage-industry-level studio. For a
small studio, even when you amortize the initial investment for mixing
equipment I don't think you can justify mixing your own clay from a
financial point of view - expecially when you consider the time involved,
the dry warehouse space for raw materials, the space for mixing equipment,
the labor for mixing, etc. In a small studio, you should concentrate your
energies on what you do best. Mixing clay is grunt work.
On the other hand, many potters like to control their own claybody, for very
good reasons. And many potters like to experiment with different bodies, or
make subtle adjustments from one batch to the next. Those things of course
justify having your own mixing equipment.
I am amazed by the costs many of your are quoting for pre-mixed clay. I
have not purchased boxed clay in quantity since I was in production in
Northern California pre-1985. At that time I purchased pre-mixed stoneware
clays from Westwood (now Laguna) for $.09 per pound in 10,000 pound
quantities. Obviously the price has gone up since then. But the price of
raw materials has gone up as well. I could not possibly have justified
mixing my own clays in the early 1980s.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Phone - home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801
Appalachian Center for Crafts
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Cindy on wed 5 mar 97
Thanks for your reply, Dannon.
----------I think you're right. It sounded like an awful lot of work when I
can barely keep up with my wholesale orders as it is. Also sounded as
though everyone in the world was mixing their own clay, and I thought maybe
I was missing something. So, maybe someday when I get rich and want a new
toy, I'll get all that stuff.
Thanks again,
Cindy
>
> The cost difference (9 cents v. 20 cents or whatever) can also
> be thought of in terms of the percentage of cost/per/piece
> the clay amounts to. Clay is the cheapest item that a potter
> has to deal with. If you use a pound of clay to make a mug with
> handle, the cost of the clay is the cheapest part. If you make
> a thousand of those mugs, the clay is still the cheapest part.
> If you use 5 pounds of clay to throw a dinner plate, the cost
> of the clay is going to be somewhere between 45 cents and
> a dollar. And it will still be the cheapest part, even if, after
> trimming the foot, you throw away your scrap and never recycle
> an ounce of it.
>
> Whether you choose to mix your own clay or not should probably
> depend on whether you just prefer your own to commercial, and
> how you value your time, and where you want to spend it. I mix
> my own clay here, because it is convenient to do so, equipment is
> there and materials. But if I were setting up a studio, and had
> to buy all the equipment - probably not. I know at least two
> production potters who have commercial places mix their clay
> for them (to their own recipe/requirements) and they use tons
> a year. But they find their time more profitably spent at the
> wheel and glaze table.
>
> I haven't been following this make/buy thread until today, so
> don't know if all this has been gone over ad nauseum. Thought
> it might be useful to look at it from cost/per/piece angle.
>
> Dannon Rhudy
> potter@koyote.com
>
> -----------------------Original
> message----------------------------
>
> Yes, this is a major difference, but how much clay do you have to
> use to
> pay for a 4K+ investment in the Peter Pugger? Plus the time it
> takes to
> make your own? At what point does a potter go through enough clay
> to
> justify the expense of this type of equipment? (I'm not
> challenging you--I
> truly want the information to make a decision.)
>
> Last night I mixed clay - I did 700
> > pounds and it took me about two hours. I store in in long pugs,
> standing
> > upright in a large plastic container I got a Kmart. I also know
> that
> > whatever I want to go into that clay, it is in there. I do not
> have to
> > take my clay body on faith. The cost is a big deal when you buy
> more than
> a
> > few hundred pounds.
>
> I buy (at my present rate of throwing--and I'm new) about 2-3 tons
> a year.
> So far, I've been happy with the quality of the clay. Even with
> the
> consideration that I have to have it shipped, or have my traveling
> friends
> pick it up, it would still take quite a few years for the cost
> difference
> to make up the cost of the equipment. Space isn't a problem--for
> once in my
> life I have more space than I need, but even so, the investment in
> a pugger
> doesn't seem likely to pay for itself anytime soon. I'd be
> interested in
> any opinions either agreeable or contrary to mine. Thanks in
> advance for
> any advice.
>
> Cindy in the Black Hills--where we have entire red cliffs of
> beautiful
> clay, but no one interested in mining it. (Well, it's too
> beautiful to dig
> it all up anyway, but they could get it from the prairie, I
> suppose.)
Peter and Sam Tomich on thu 6 mar 97
I haven't been able to figure out the cost difference yet between wet &
dry. How much clay will a bag of 100 lbs of dry mixed clay prduce? I
believe Richard Burkett told me that the clay they get is a few dollars
a bag where he's at, correct me if I'm wrong. How much do you guys pay
for 25lbs of premixed etc wet clay? 25 lbs of B-mix at the university
bookstore where I know they are not jacking up the price (my husband
used to work there as a student) costs me almost $10.00 a bag, L.B.
Blend is $8+. It would seem that shipping the water to Hawaii is a
great waste of money and some mixing equipment would be justified. What
do you think?
Sam in Hawaii where life is grand except for the cost of living because
of shipping
Fay & Ralph Loewenthal on thu 6 mar 97
I have to agree totally with what Dannon Rhudy said.
Even here in the backwoods of South Africa my clay
supplier makes clay for several profesional potters
according to their specific requirements. I am
reassessing whether to carry on buying it in powder form
or to buy it ready wedged. My pugmill has just died on
me for the second time in 3 / 4 months. At the moment I
have my employee wedging up the clay after mixing it. At
least the customers can buy ready wedged clay.
I will have to work out the increase in cost of the pugged
clay over the capital outlay of a new pugmill. These seem
to be far more expensive here, for inferior quality, than it
is in the States.
It may be very romantic to make one's own clay. You
have to make the best use your time. That it is your most
valuable resource, and to waste it with boring labour
intensive activities is soul destroying and a waste of
money. Enjoy your potting Ralph
LINDA BLOSSOM on fri 7 mar 97
Cindy,
Perhaps what you make and how you work makes as much of a difference as the
quantity of clay you use. The price is an issue when you are writing the
check. Writing a check for $500 is a lot easier than one for $1000.
However, the bigger factor for me is flexibility. If I am making tiles for
indoor, I add some feldspar. My body is more open if I drop the feldspar.
If I want to make a sink and want to be sure that the rim won't sag, I
prefer to lower the feldspar. If I want a more red body, I can add some
iron oxide or redart. If I want to try paper clay...different grog...no
grog. I have the flexibility to do this. I also didn't think the
mixer/pugger cost that much more than a pugmill. The scraps from bagged
clay was a big problem. I was making pieces on the slab roller so there
were lots of scrap when I cut out pieces from the slab. Someone who throws
might not have that problem. Someone who uses the same body and not that
much of it also has a different set of circumstances.
Linda
Ithaca, NY
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