John Jensen on thu 18 apr 96
I read the post announcing the workshop on wood firing with Jack Troy at Juniata
college with some interest. The price seems reasonable, all things considered.
But I was appalled (dismayed, outraged, confused, discouraged) by the price the
college charges for giving academic credit. What is the justification for this
$330 dollars/credit above and beyond the price of the course. Is this normal?
Is this where educations is in this decade? This strikes me as a class barrier
of the worst kind, and I wonder how a person can assent to be a part of such a
system.
Jack...tell me it ain't so....John Jensen in
Annapolis.76053.1462@compuserve.com.
TROY@JUNCOL.JUNIATA.EDU on fri 19 apr 96
Juniata College is one of many small, private liberal arts colleges with a
student population of about 1050 students. It has always had high academic
standards, and has always had to charge more than publicly-funded institutions.
There are lots of schools that charge more per credit hour than Juniata, and
lots that charge less.
I personally wish it cost less to attend Juniata, but I know for a fact that
nobody's getting rich here on the "take." There were no faculty salary
increases last year, and I feel lucky to have my part-time job and a functioning
ceramics studio even though we don't have art majors. We have a salt kiln, an
anagama, 2 gas kilns, 2 electrics, raku and pit-firing facilities, a
dough-mixer, 11 wheels, glaze shop, and space to work. Mostly, though, there's
great human energy in the studio.
I'm no apologist for the pricey credits, and am awfully sorry if financial
realities, no matter how they are defined, preclude some people showing up. All
I can guarantee is that for those who do sign up for the workshop Peter
Beasecker and I are teaching, it will be the absolute best experience we can
possibly put together for the participants.
Jack Troy
pe_dresel@ccmail.pnl.gov on fri 19 apr 96
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:37:20 EDT
John Jensen <76053.1462@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>But I was appalled (dismayed, outraged, confused, discouraged) by the
>price the college charges for giving academic credit. What is the
>justification for this $330 dollars/credit above and beyond the price
>of the course. Is this normal?
Would it help to think of it as getting a great deal on your education
if you **don't** want or need the academic pedigree and
record-keeping?
-- Evan Dresel in eastern Washington State where the asparagus harvest
is starting.
SLPBM@cc.usu.edu on fri 19 apr 96
Jack-
This idea that no one is getting rich off the high tutition rates is not
wholy true. Teachers never see the money... but add up the salary increases
and the position increases for management/administration and I am sure
you'll see a disproportionate increase on their behalf. If I am wrong
you can flame me to your heart's desire. I doubt it though. I saw it a lot
at Cornell, at UMASS, and now at USU. Saw it less at Hampshire College
(my undergrad) only because students were privy to all information regarding
policy and business of the school.
In all, School is a business and there is always a profit to be made.
And us students are the clientelle. IF we want a new product then we had
better say so.
nuf said.
Alex Solla
slpbm@cc.usu.edu
TROY@JUNCOL.JUNIATA.EDU on sat 20 apr 96
Maybe a pilot light, rather than a flame, is in order:
Small colleges such as Juniata are hard-pressed to maintain their high
academic standards with the costs of "doing business." Two years ago there
was a major administrative house-cleaning. Pink slips flew like confetti.
Tenure-less and part-time, I pondered the grim consequences of being unable to
teach at a place that has come to mean a lot to me [can you hear the violins
in the background at this point?].
Also, I must admit this isn't my area of expertise, but I trust my nose enough
to believe that if this school were making any appreciable profit, I'd catch a
wiff of it.
As Cardew said, "An artist is one who speaks up in the presence of a bad smell."
Jack Troy
John Jensen on sun 21 apr 96
Jack, I'm Sorry. I realize that the tone of my post and my statements were not
appropriate, and might be taken to impugn your motives or your integrity. I
apologize. I certainly have as great a regard for you as the medium through
which we meet allows. I responded hastily. I'm sure it is a fine course, well
worth the money..Perhaps worth twice the money.
I'm still baffled by the fact that it cost more to get academic credit for the
course than it does to actually take the course. I would be grateful if you or
someone else could explain why this is.
John Jensen in Annapolis, 76053.1452@compuserve.com
Karl David Knudson on sun 21 apr 96
On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, John Jensen wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I'm still baffled by the fact that it cost more to get academic credit for the
> course than it does to actually take the course. I would be grateful if you o
> someone else could explain why this is.
Inflation, and the fact that tax money for education, especially higher
education is not very high on anyone's priorities to my knowledge.
My father went to college for about $600 a year tuition for undergrad,
and maybe $1500 for grad school. Were it not for scholarship and
tuition arrangments I've been lucky enough to get, I'd be paying about
$13,000 a year, and it has been increasing each year since I got here.
Something on the order of 70% since 1990 I believe. I'm not masochistic
enough to check. I doubt that Oregon is the only state where this is
happening. The really sad thing is that most of the problems resulted
from a voter approved property tax limitation. Nice to know where
liberal Oregon's priorities are huh?
Karl in Eugene, where like the sun, our tuition and fees rise every morning.
art_selsor@vicuna.emcmt.edu on mon 22 apr 96
As a member of the Campus budget committee I know something about college
costs at State Colleges and Universities. Each state funds campus at a
rate determined by their full time student head count. Montana is cutting
back on its share of support as are other states. For example, New Mexico
had a campus with students paying 23% of the actual cost. Our campus in
Montana is striving to "wean" itself of state support from 28% to 25%.
Tax payers don't want to fund Higher Ed. The national gov't is also
cutting back.The "average salaries" for faculty at our campus is $36,000
with a great disparity between the School of Business and the rest. Starting
Business Faculty receive $39000. Meanwhile places such as UC-Boulder
charge a sur charge tuition for classes taught by higher paid faculty.
At our campus, only 29% is going directly toward instruction.(faculty
salaries and dept. operating budgets). The campus budget has six parts.
instruction
instructional support
research
public service
administrative support
facilties services (building, maintenance and grounds crew)
Tuition makes up only 25% of this total budget. The rest comes from
the state. Over the past decade, our campus had to cut 10% per year
from the budget.Last year and the year before have actually stabilized.
All state employees had a salary freeze for 5 years.
Hope this helps you understand college funding.
Marcia in Montana
peter pinnell on mon 22 apr 96
Perhaps I can explain. $330.00 per credit hour is not at all high for a
college course at a private institution. Its not that anyone is getting
rich: just the opposite, usually. That simply reflects the real costs
of providing teachers, buildings, maintenance, custodial, clerical and
administrative staff, libraries, equipment, etc., etc.,that is necessary
for an accredited institution of higher learning.
Colleges often allow non-credit classes to be taught after hours and
during break time. It is common for the college to only charge the most
direct cost of these classes; sometimes barely enough to cover the salery
of the instructor. The college sees this as providing a community
service, and usually hopes to gain a litle positive P.R. in return for its
offering. In essence, these classes are subsidized by the full-time
students who pay all the other costs involved with keeping the schools
doors open.
When someone decides to take one of these classes for credit, it is only
fair that he pay the real costs of college credit. Why should only the
full time students do this?
Regardless, I'm sure it will be a terrific workshop. I wish I could be
there.
Pete Pinnell
On Thu, 18 Apr 1996, John Jensen wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I read the post announcing the workshop on wood firing with Jack Troy at Junia
> college with some interest. The price seems reasonable, all things considered
> But I was appalled (dismayed, outraged, confused, discouraged) by the price th
> college charges for giving academic credit. What is the justification for thi
> $330 dollars/credit above and beyond the price of the course. Is this normal?
> Is this where educations is in this decade? This strikes me as a class barrie
> of the worst kind, and I wonder how a person can assent to be a part of such a
> system.
>
> Jack...tell me it ain't so....John Jensen in
> Annapolis.76053.1462@compuserve.com.
>
peter pinnell on wed 24 apr 96
Hi Butch,
I enjoyed your horror stories. I doubt there is anyone teaching who
couldn't match you for stories of waste and stupidity in higher
education. On the other hand, I don't think its any different in other
parts of the economy. During the course of my rather checkered career
history, I have worked for a number of private firms, both large and
small. The kind of sories you tell were also occured there.
I did a fair amount of construction work at one time. One of my favorite
stories involved the crew sent out to do the tearoff for a re-roofing job.
They were really terrific, and had the roof off in less than half a day.
The only problem was, they were at the wrong house.(You can imagine the
home owner's surprise when he returned from work). The foreman argued
that it wasn't a big mistake: after all, he was only off by one house.
I have a good friend who was an engineer at a hospital for many years.
The stories of what happens there make the University snafus seem like
very small potatoes.
At the root of all these stories is one big problem: we let people run
the world. I guess until we can get someone else to run it for us, we
will just have to muddle through the best we can. I decided long ago
that I wasn't going to get high blood presure over these things, and my
life has been much happier since.
Back to the original issue. I've had the chance to teach at a few small
private schools, and this kind of waste occurs much, much less there for
a very simple reason: if it didn't, they would be out of business.
Private schools run on very tight budgets, with little room for error.
The schools that have failed to control waste are now gone(and alot did
disappear).
Enough playing-I have paperwork to do.
Pete Pinnell
Who wastes lots of time doing University paperwork designed to prevent waste.
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