Linda Arbuckle on sun 10 nov 96
Post from Karl caught my eye.
>This reminded me of a comment I heard John Balisterri make about a year
>or so ago. It went something like, "If you're going to schooll and the
>professors aren't cutting it, go up to them and say 'you suck' and go
>someplace else."
>
>It seems also that the best school to go to for learning to make a living
>making pots, is no school, find a potter who is doing just that and
>apprentice with him/her. Does anyone know of a program that would
>contradict that statement?
>
>Karl in rainy Eugene, OR.
>
I'd say that I agree w/ Debra's comment. First thing to attempt is saying
that you need more help/advice/whatever. Attacking the person who may be
able to help tends to make them defensive (good, or bad, it's human nature).
Rather than taking the attitude that you aren't being adequately serviced,
it may be more productive to consider the situation, do some research, and
figure out how you can participate to make things better. Yes, professors
have responsibilities that they should take seriously. But if it's not
happening, you can shout invective and leave, or you can ask for help, or
you can be an activtist and HELP make it better for everyone.
Try to figure out what the problem is. Curriculum? Make suggesttions. Get a
student group going to investigate. Look at other programs. More input
needed? Get a student guild together. Talk to each other. Ask local
ceramists to come in for a monthly potluck and crit. Have sales of work or
other fund-raisers and bring in visiting artists. Join student government
and figure out how to get student activities fees to help fund ceramics
events. Participation from your faculty? Organize seminars, crits, etc. and
invite participation from your faculty and other art faculty across
disciplines. Have collaborative workshops. Morale? Have events, potluck
lunches, give slide talks for each other on topics that relate to your work.
Organize field trips to art events, clay studios, museums, shows.
There's always something that can be done to improve. Students need to
participate. If the help doesn't come from without, you can start something
from within.
I woud also offer a response to your comment about the best school for
learning as apprenticeship. Machines make clay faster, cheaper, and
technically bettter than most people do. To be equipped for a lifetime of
art work, we need to put something in the clay that machines can't. There
is meaning, content, in all the many decisions an artist makes as he/she
works. Understanding how to look and ways to think are the BEST tools for
career longevity in the arts. An apprenticeship usually provides repetition
(valuable in many ways) and one view of how things work, as well as one
person's take on marketing and business (again, valuable). It's a good
supplement to an academic education, but doesn't offer the breadth of
thinking, challenges of talking about work (yours and others) on a regular
basis, and the contact with diverse works and views. Perhaps I'm biased
because I come from the "system", but I think the mind is the artist's
finest tool. A good academic art education stretches one's thinking. Yes,
the skills must also be there, and yes, you need to learn business info,
too. But to my thinking those are more discreet kinds of information.
Many well-respected studio potters I can think of have an academic
background. I'll spare you the list, but I suspect most would say they
wouldn't be making the work they are today w/o that education.
Linda
_______________________________________________
Linda Arbuckle E-mail: ARBUCK@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
Associate Professor, Graduate Co-Ordinator
Univeristy of Florida
Department of Art P.O. Box 115801
Gainesville, FL 32611-5801 Ceramics: (352) 392-0228
Don Jones on tue 12 nov 96
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Post from Karl caught my eye.
>
>>This reminded me of a comment I heard John Balisterri make about a year
>Try to figure out what the problem is. Curriculum? Make suggesttions. Get a
>student group going to investigate. Look at other programs. More input
>needed? Get a student guild together. Talk to each other. Ask local
>ceramists to come in for a monthly potluck and crit. Have sales of work or
>other fund-raisers and bring in visiting artists. Join student government
>and figure out how to get student activities fees to help fund ceramics
>events. Participation from your faculty? Organize seminars, crits, etc. and
>invite participation from your faculty and other art faculty across
>disciplines. Have collaborative workshops. Morale? Have events, potluck
>lunches, give slide talks for each other on topics that relate to your work.
>Organize field trips to art events, clay studios, museums, shows.
>Linda
>
>_______________________________________________
>Linda Arbuckle E-mail: ARBUCK@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
>Associate Professor, Graduate Co-Ordinator
>Univeristy of Florida
>Department of Art P.O. Box 115801
>Gainesville, FL 32611-5801 Ceramics: (352) 392-0228
Linda,
This is an ongoing problem. You are assuming that todays students have
enough time to do all of the above. My experience is that nothing can
change the system until the tenure system is dismantled and students are
viewed with more respect as part of the education process. Too many lazy
and egotistic non-team players are dominating art eduction in the colleges
and Universites. They are untouchable if they have tenure. Teaching art in
a university remains the highest paind and easiest job in the world because
few peers in other fields can judge what is taught and what standards
should be imposed in the art departments around the country. The
atmosphere regarding academic freedom is almost sacred and the high preists
are the art faculty. they can do and say anything where there are no rules
to be looked at by committees containing faculty from other arts and
disciplines.
I understand but remain sceptical
Don Jones
Albuquerque
Jim Connell on tue 12 nov 96
WINTHROP UNIVERSITY Electronic Mail Message
Date: 12-Nov-1996 10:34am EDT
From: James Connell
CONNELLJ
Dept: Art and Design
Tel No: 323-2126
TO: SMTP%"CLAYART@lsv.uky.edu" ( _SMTP%"CLAYART@lsv.uky.edu" )
Subject: Re: education
Don Jones you are wrong when you say education is the easiest and higest paid
job around. Dead wrong! If you had a lousy educational experience I'm deeply
sorry for that and your negative reflection. But don't try to flush the whole
system down your sewer.
Teachers at any level from grade school on up are underpaid and obviously
unappreciated for the hard work and dedication they put forth. I value the
education I received and I know how hard I work at my profession. It can be a
thankless job at times especially with people with opinions like yours running
around.
Dead Wrong!
Jim
Don Jones on wed 13 nov 96
>
>Don Jones you are wrong when you say education is the easiest and higest paid
>job around. Dead wrong! If you had a lousy educational experience I'm deeply
>sorry for that and your negative reflection. But don't try to flush the whole
>system down your sewer.
>
>Dead Wrong!
>
>Jim
Jim,
I would have been wrong had I said such a general statement. However, I
believe said ,(or meant to say) that art education at the college or
university level is the easiest and highest paid part time job around. I
agree that any education job done well is highly difficult. I have held
such a position myself and can attest to it. But it seems to me that the
studio positions in universities across the US are cushy and not well
regulated. I am not trying to flush any good system down any sewer but I
stant firm in the belief that I am not alone in my view and that it is not
just a few who are giving the job a bad name.
Don Jones
David McBeth on thu 14 nov 96
>I would have been wrong had I said such a general statement. However, I
>believe said ,(or meant to say) that art education at the college or
>university level is the easiest and highest paid part time job around. I
>agree that any education job done well is highly difficult. I have held
>such a position myself and can attest to it. But it seems to me that the
>studio positions in universities across the US are cushy and not well
>regulated. I am not trying to flush any good system down any sewer but I
>stant firm in the belief that I am not alone in my view and that it is not
>just a few who are giving the job a bad name.
>Don Jones
Don - Don't over generalize. In how many occupations do you teach (work)
all day, go home to spend a few hours with your family and then go back to
work til 1:30 am, as I did last night and many other nights in the seven
years I have been teaching at the university level. Work at the job on
weekends would not be allowed or would be financial rewarded in many labor
regulated positions. I work 70 - 80 hours a week for my straight pay and
spend countless hours during the summer months working to do a better job
at my work during the school year. I beleive there are many occupations
where the workers leave their work at work. I go home to find that time
when the rest of the family has gone to bed so I can read the lastest
journal or the newest text on the growing pile of literature beside my bed.
How many sort-order cooks, clerks in video stores, gas station
attendants....... can't wait for their home to quiet down in the evening
so they can read the latest journal in their profession.
David McBeth, MFA
Associate Professor of Art
330C Gooch Hall
Division of Fine and Performing Arts
University of Tennessee at Martin
Martin, TN 38238
901-587-7416 office
901-587-7415 fax
901-587-5724 home
http://fmc.utm.edu/~dmcbeth/DMCBETH.HTM
Ken Stevens on thu 14 nov 96
Don, if you find a bad apple do you toss the whole basket? That is what
your suggestion amounts to. I would be a little careful about generalizing
from a limited sample and/or anecdotal evidence. Many schools pay a LOT of
attention to student feedback; mine for example. If persistent complaints
are ignored there is a procedure for dismissal. And it has happened here,
even in the Art Department. There are some very strong and valuable reasons
for maintaining tenure. Keeping someone in a cushy job is not among them,
and when the system is used that way, most schools have ways of getting rid
of non-performers. It seems that you had a very bad experience, or at least
know someone well who did. A teacher who doesn't teach is regrettable, but
exposing faculty to dismissal for expressing unpopular ideas or those not in
agreement with administration views in order to get at the poor teachers is
a pretty serious "unintended consequence". Very much like tossing the
basket because of one bad apple.
Look at another side of the education picture; should we be able to dump
students who we don't agree with or who we think should work harder? I
think not; we talk to them and try to find ways to get them more involved.
Then we dump them (joke). Teaching and learning are very much the same kind
of process in my mind. If I am teaching a whole class poorly it is easy to
see them sort of drift away - I've had it happen where I misread the
commitment or motivation of a group. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible
to get such a group back. Now I wait a few weeks before we really start
cooking and spend as much time as possible with each student while we build
a sense of community. When some personality of a class is sensed, it is
possible to move on in ways that will reach MOST of the people most of the
time. Being a student is a 60 hour/week job that YOU pay for. To get your
money's worth requires that students do their part. There is no funnel on
the top of heads that allows us to pour accumlated knowledge in until a
gauge registers FULL. Both sides must contribute for education to work.
When that happens students learn and so do faculty. Any teacher who doesn't
learn something from students each term is not paying attention. Most
often, at a minimum, new students will try things that we learned "won't
work", and often it does. Keeps one honest and ready to say "try it" if it
is something we haven't actually done ourselves and (prudently) take some
precautions just in case we were correct.
Ken Stevens
University of Puget Sound
Linda Arbuckle on thu 14 nov 96
Don,
I think your diatribe about the evils of tenure misses the point.
There may be a spud factor in faculty, but I don't think that's the only
issue. I would not excuse that kind of irresponsibility. And we could debate
tenure, but that's a bore on a clay list. Tenure exists, and students can't
change that during their couple of years in school. I know LOTS of faculty,
most tenured, who work incredibly hard for their students, contribute to
NCECA, this list, etc., work actively as producing artists, and are
demonstrably NOT underpaid or resting on their laurels (so I don't agree
with your position generally villifying faculty as lazy and the system as
corrupt .. I've seen too many otherwise ). The question is do THEY have time
to do extra? I've seen many artists within and without academia volunteer
and do things they didn't really have time to do that contribute to the clay
community . How do students learn to take initiative and do more?
Yes, every student should have an ideal educational system. And then there's
the real world. The question is what to do if you don't have the ideal set
up.... Leave? Saying you don't have time to get a better education is not
effective, either.
I've thought about the way students are taught, and what the sub rosa agenda
is. In law school students are called on to speak frequently, and expected
to be prepared and think quickly on their feet. The training may be
aggressive, and their opinions may be challenged. Just as they will
experience in their career after school. In med school, residents have
gruelling schedules to teach them to respond and think clearly whether they
are tired or not (I'm not raising whether this is good or bad, but it seems
to be the method), just as they will encounter things that require life and
death decisions and emergencies in their careers.
When art students leave school, often NOTHING happens. They find they have
no community, no studio, no equipment, no direction. ART & FEAR by Ted
Orland and ? (my brain is jello, I don't remember) has a couple of good
chapters on addressing this. Many people quit after school because they
haven't learned to create a support system, or function without one. Without
deadlines and imposed order, they flail.
One of the things young artists need to learn is to take responsibility for
their continuing education, and to be active and creative in pursuing their
goals. Students should know that being an artist professionally is a big
time and resource management problem, and it requires creative activity
beyond the studio and active input. You don't just wake up and have those
resources one day, you learn them. This is not an apology for a bad
program, but a necessary part of learning to take an active part in one's
life as an artist and create opportunities and community.
This is, of course, easier to learn with a mentor. But quitting if you don't
have one may leave you out in the cold.
Linda
_______________________________________________
Linda Arbuckle E-mail: ARBUCK@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
Associate Professor, Graduate Co-Ordinator
Univeristy of Florida
Department of Art P.O. Box 115801
Gainesville, FL 32611-5801 Ceramics: (352) 392-0228
Vince Pitelka on thu 14 nov 96
>But it seems to me that the
>studio positions in universities across the US are cushy and not well
>regulated. I am not trying to flush any good system down any sewer but I
>stant firm in the belief that I am not alone in my view and that it is not
>just a few who are giving the job a bad name.
>Don Jones
Don,
Sorry, but you are absolutely dead wrong. It IS just a few bad apples who
create such negative impressions about the university teaching profession.
And the same is true in every teaching field. I do know of a few art
professors around the country who became teachers only to discover that they
were not really cut out for it, and once they had tenure settled into
autopilot mode. It is indeed a sad thing to see someone waste such a great
opportunity while there are capable candidates out there seeking teaching
jobs. However, I think that most of the people who fit the aforementioned
description entered their teaching jobs back when it was expected that the
responsible student would proceed directly from high-school to undergrad,
and directly from undergrad to grad school, and there were full-time jobs
available for almost anyone who completed an MFA. Such people never had an
opportunity to find out whether they had made the right choices until after
they were hired. For the most part, those people are now close to
retirement, and you will see less and less of them in the system. Today's
crop of young art professors in tenure track teaching jobs have gotten there
by sheer perseverance and determination and through broad-ranging experience
and background. They do not tend to burn out. They are dedicated and hard
working, and they work their asses off for not much pay. If one sticks it
out for the long haul and ultimately makes full professor, then the rewards
may be a little more grand. Otherwise, nobody goes into academia for the
money. This is one of the most prevalent and inaccurate misunderstanding of
the university teaching profession. If you want to make lots of money, go
get a BA in a specialized field of engineering or computer science, and you
can enter private industry and work you way into six figures. Don't ever
expect anything remotely like that from a university teaching job.
I would not trade what I do for anything. I do not make much money, and I
do not need much money. I work on the average of fifty to sixty hours per
week for the university, and then I try to cram in a little time on my own
art work. Through the summer months I get a little more work done on my own
art, I do research in my field, I write, I build and repair studio
equipment, I update lesson plans and lectures, I shoot slides, etc. etc. I
do not take any more vacation than your average factory-worker. I am not
holding myself up as any kind of special example, because I am not. My
situation is very similar to that of almost all university educators I know.
They are one of the hardest-working groups of people I know. There are
always a few bad apples, and it is unfortunate that people seem to obsess on
them.
The tenure system works, and is essential to the preservation of freedom of
expression, which is central to the basic mission of the university system
of education. There is currently a move to streamline education, placing a
greater emphasis on professional programs rather than on research and
creative work which furthers the various fields of human knowledge and
expression. University administrators, who these days often have college
degrees in public administration, rather than having worked their way up
through the teaching profession, would love to do away with tenure so that
they can get rid of the better paid full professors and hire a stable of
adjunct lecturers. This situation has occured at many small mediocre
colleges, and is being suggested at quite a few larger ones (including U of
Tenn.), and the results are invariably devastating to the noble goals of
university education. Such institutions in essence become trade schools,
mass producing graduates barely trained for a single career, with very
little knowledge of anything else.
Don, it saddens me that your own university experience was so bad that you
came away from it with such negative misconceptions, and now feel compelled
to pass those misconceptions on to others. Granted that college education
is not intended for everyone, and this has nothing to do with intelligence.
Some are better sutied for apprenticeship or for just getting out on their
own and fighting their way to subsistence. But as I have said in earlier
posts, any college graduate who reports that undergraduate or graduate
school was overall a bad experience has no one to blame but themselves.
Wow! I got worked up over this one.
Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@Dekalb.Net
Phone - home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801
Appalachian Center for Crafts, Smithville TN 37166
Jim Connell on thu 14 nov 96
WINTHROP UNIVERSITY Electronic Mail Message
Date: 13-Nov-1996 05:59pm EDT
From: James Connell
CONNELLJ
Dept: Art and Design
Tel No: 323-2126
TO: SMTP%"CLAYART@lsv.uky.edu" ( _SMTP%"CLAYART@lsv.uky.edu" )
Subject: Re: education
Okay, we've all heard the myths and stereotypes of the tenured faculty and the
Ivy Tower. I heard it as an undergrad and it seems to get carried and waved
around like a flag whenever anyone wants to bash the system. NUTS!
Don Jones said in his attack on the university tenure system and the lousy state
of art departments that:
"Few peers in other fields can judge what is taught and what standards should
be imposed in the Art Departments around the country"
Let me disagree with this broad generalization by listing all the reviews I and
my department go through:
1) Every semester we have student evaluations that are used to review teacher
performance. This review is used in the granting of tenure and promotion and
annual pay raises. (Some would argue about pay raises as we have gone many a
year without any although cost of living goes unchecked. When we do get a raise
2 or 3% is the norm).
2) Once a year our chairman and/or dean comes in for a scheduled or nonscheduled
teaching performance review. This is in the form of an in classroom observation.
3) Each year we put together our extensive annual report that must answer or
address a self analysis of a)Teaching, b)Research, c)Service to university,
d)Service to community. This is reviewed by the Chair and by the Dean.
4) Our Department is nationally accredited by NASAD. In order to be accrededated
by NASAD you have to meet standards that are quite rough. And the list to make
the cut is long and complicated but it very much includes an extensive PEER
REVIEW by outside art educators.
5) Not only do you become accredited, but every 5 to 8 years (I'm not sure how
long it is as it has to do with how you were graded) you have to be reaccredited
following the same tough standards.
6) Our Interior Design area is currently undergoing a reaccredition right now
with FIDER.
Not every art department is accredited some don't care, some find the standards
too tough. But for those that are (and the list is extensive) you will find
faculty that are proud of this designation. My University has 19 out of 22
programs that are accredited with the aim for all to be accredited.
If my state, South Carolina,(which is known as an economically deprived and
educationally backward state) goes this far to assure a high standard you can
imagine what goes on in the bigger, richer, sophisticated states and schools.
On top of that my state is going to a "Performance Funding" system of higher
education that is becoming a national trend. This basically states that our
money from the state will be based on 37 Performance Indicators such as Mission
Focus, Quality of Faculty (which includes POST-TENURE REVIEW), Instructional
Quality, Institutional Cooperation and Collaboration, Administrative Efficiency,
Entrance Requirements, Graduates' Achievements, User-Friendliness of Institution
and Research Funding.
It was brought to my attention while doing a workshop last week that I've done
18 Juried shows this year alone, been to 2 national conferences dealing with my
area (NCECA and Utilitarian Clay II). Been to two High Schools for demos and
lectures and will do two grade schools in December. Given pieces for charity
auctions. Won some 4 or 5 awards. Been in 3 clay magazines. I sit on seven
committees and chair two of them. I've done Open Houses at the University as
well as Portfolio reviews. Oh yeah, I teach a full load and teach two freshman
orientation classes every fall. I'll stop there but I could go on. All this and
I've been tenured for three years. And then someone has the nerve to say I'm
over paid and have an easy job! Get real and/or please tell me where these jobs
are. A couple of years ago local papers were telling people professors make
$50,000.00 and only teach 18 hours a week. Huh? We all looked around and
wondered where they got their information.
I see my peers at my institution working hard. They are a dedicated faculty both
in the Art Department as well as across campus. Do we have bad apples? Of
course we do. Every corporation and business across the land has deadwood. Is
there a majority of bad teachers? Hell no. Are tenured Faculty untouchable?
Nothing could be more ridiculous. All are accountable in some way, some how.
I've seen teachers lose in their application for tenure and the national trend
is making tenure a much harder goal to attain. If you don't understand the true
meaning of the tenure system I'm afraid it would take too long a time to
explain but let me just say without it, and the freedom to speak the truth, the
majority could rule over the minority. Let me remind you what Hitler did in
Germany. One of the first things he did was to attack the universities. Read
your history or do you want Newt and his group telling us what to teach?
Linda Arbuckle had a long list of how students can add to a program. She had
some very good suggestions that were put down with the simple explanation that
students don't have time. Nonsense! One of the things I find upsetting with
teaching is that some people think that school is a one way street--that the
teacher teaches, period. Wrong! School is a two way street where the teacher
teaches and the student learns as well as the teachers learn and the students
teach. I have found so many students with the attitude of "what have you done
for me lately". There are students who want everything given to them on a silver
platter. The old "what exactly do I have to do to get an "A" in this class"
syndrome. I always ask my students at the end of the semester "what have you
learned?" "How have you applied yourself?" I believe school is a place where
you learn how to think and solve problems. Not just a regurgitation of facts
and figures. School isn't for everyone and some schools aren't right for some
students. If it isn't the right place for you then pick up your stuff and move
on. Just remember, pointing the finger at someone else isn't necessarily the
right answer.
Is the university system perfect? Hardly, nothing is but to bash it with such
irreverence is enough to get my blood boiling.
Vent, Vent, Vent
Jim
James Dapogny on thu 14 nov 96
Subject: Re: education
>
>Don Jones you are wrong when you say education is the easiest and higest paid
>job around. Dead wrong! If you had a lousy educational experience I'm deeply
>sorry for that and your negative reflection. But don't try to flush the whole
>system down your sewer.
>Jim
I am married to a university professor (music) and at one time I myself
taught for nine years at a nearby smaller university. Jim is right. You
are misled and wrong. Disregarding the ever-present-in-any-field bad
eggs, most college teachers I know are truly committed and dedicated. And
underpaid. Sixty to eighty-hour weeks are not exceptional. Days and
evenings spent worrying about students and their ongoing problems are
typical. Shoving one's own work aside for the sake of one's school work
happens all the time. So sorry you had (evidently) a bad educational
experience, but you are using it to misrepresent
many first class people.
Gail Dapogny in Ann Arbor
vosburgh on thu 14 nov 96
_______________________________________________________________________________
Let me ring some changes on Vince Pitelka's comment " If you want to make lots
of money, go get a BA in a specialized field of engineering or computer
science, and you can enter private industry and work you way into six figures"
I'm a physicist who has been successful in industrial research. My
involvement in pottery stems from a night class I took five years ago from
Regis Brodie at Skidmore College (who, incidentally, is another excellent
counterexample to the initial diatribe on lazy professors...Regis has used his
position to build a big, active studio, in which he works himself, and has
scores of students and broad participation from the surrounding non-academic
community).
In my present job I interview, hire, and supervise engineers and scientists,
and I have similar complaints about academia...students should be better
taught to value their work for its own sake, and be more realistic about the
greater society's interest in supporting their personal agendas. Outside of
one or two very hot fields (for me it's computer visualization and
networking), today's graduates face worldwide competition, not just to get a
job, but to keep it. Many parts of R+D have become commoditized, and modern
communications have made it possible to do large scale engineeering projects
over vast distances. Just as for artists, although not to the same degree,
our institutions are morphing, our jobs are changing, our future is only as
assured as our work is currently marketable. Since we have somewhat more
objective metrics for determining merit, the system is "fairer", and the pay
is better, but the business of structuring a career and a satisfying life for
technologists is becoming much like it has always been for artists or English
majors.
Kirby Vosburgh
vosburgh@crd.ge.com
Karl David Knudson on thu 14 nov 96
A tidbit from Linda's response to Don's post about tenure:
> When art students leave school, often NOTHING happens. They find they have
> no community, no studio, no equipment, no direction. ART & FEAR by Ted
> Orland and ? (my brain is jello, I don't remember) has a couple of good
> chapters on addressing this. Many people quit after school because they
> haven't learned to create a support system, or function without one. Without
> deadlines and imposed order, they flail.
Why is this? I would have to say that my overall impression of the clay
world as a young artist is that people are almost bending over backwards
to help out others. Unlike the med school example, this art example
gives me the feeling that school is like a big boat that teachers and
students sail around on until the 'graduation' when the student is
ritually cast overboard into the ocean. Can programs set up
'residencies' for graduates? Do they allready? How many studio artists
and teachers could use an assistant who wants to learn?
I agree with your point that:
> One of the things young artists need to learn is to take responsibility for
> their continuing education, and to be active and creative in pursuing their
> goals.
Isn't a part of the college experience also learning how to use and
manage your resources? I think that this should occur early in the
undergrad program, yet for quite a few (most I think) it does not seem to.
I'm continually amazed at the lack of understanding that many younger (and
older) students have with regards to resources as basic as the LIBRARY at
their school much less something complicated like Clayart or working artists.
>Students should know that being an artist professionally is a big
> time and resource management problem, and it requires creative activity
> beyond the studio and active input. You don't just wake up and have those
> resources one day, you learn them.
--------------!
EXACTLY!!!! And how do you learn them? Trial and error? that's kind of
chancy. Experience? That takes a while. Someone teaches you the
concepts? Hey, we may have something here. This goes back to my
original statement as to the benefits of learning to make a living as an
artist as an apprentice rather than a student.
What an interesting thread this turned into.
Till next time,
Karl in wet Eugene.
Elca Branman on thu 14 nov 96
Lazy people make lazy teachers.Dedicated people make dedicated
teachers.Responsive people make responsive teachers...So what's new ?
Branman Potters elcab1@juno.com
in Stone Ridge ,N.Y.
in the Hudson Valley
Karl David Knudson on fri 15 nov 96
Thanks for the response Linda. As in all great dialogues each posting
raises as many questions as it answers.
> Having a peer group for feedback
> in the process is invaluable. And I think one learns large amounts from
> watching other people, as immersed in the process, solve different problems
> than yours.
This idea of a peer group may be one of the problems resulting in reasons
why certian students may not get alng in school. Being in a university
system that is not directed in a similar vein as you plan on heading may
prove disasterous, as you may not be able to develop a non-dysfunctional
peer group. Similarly if a student were to spend a year leapfrogging
from workshop to workshop, while they would accumliate a vast array of
different viewpoints and techniques, they would lack the studio time to
work through what they have learned.
> The MFA is a Masters of Fine Arts. A Masters in Art Education is a teaching
> degree. The MFA is about visual research.
> A good MFA experience colors the way an artist solves problems, in
> and out of studio, and is a tool for life.
> The rationale in having MFA's teach is that you have to have had the
> experience and be a working artist to be able to help younger artists also
> grow and mature. In theory, MFA's understand how the process works in a 2 or
> 3 year time frame (short!).
AH HAH!!! The sheer fact that I've never seen or heard of a MAE although
I have for a MAT, shows the MFA's dominance. While I agree that the
usefullness of experience in visual research is very important in
teaching, I also know for a fact (as I've had first hand experience) that
teaching requires more than knowledge. If a teacher is unable to
communicate knowledge in a constructive way the student will not
respond. I would guess that a student would benefit more from a teacher
with no knowledge but could communicate, than they would from a teacher
who was dripping knowledge but could not communicate it. As you say the
period of an MFA is quite short. I would guess that the majority of them
are basically preoccupied with their own work, and don't have alot of
time for things like learning how to talk to people from a position of
authority in such a way that it does not immediately alienate all of them.
> I think going to grad school for an MFA as a teaching credential is barking
> up the wrong tree. Teaching is not the dog, it's the tail .
Yet it is the accepted degree for most teaching positions right...?
> One woman's opinion....
valid as ever.
Looking up,
Karl in rainy Eugene.
Joyce Lee, Jim Lee on fri 15 nov 96
I agree with Elca, but would like to modify: Lazy people make lazy
administrators. Dedicated people make dedicated administrators.
Responsive people make responsive administrators. Active, caring,
dedicated, responsive teachers CAN make excellent administrators.
Reread your posts and see just how often they malign and denigrate the
whole "general" group of administrators.
Joyce
Resentful in the cooler Mojave
Earl Brunner on mon 9 sep 02
It has not been a good day. A nine year old girl and her 8 year old
sister from our school got in the way of some STUPID gang bangers trying
to kill each other (the girls were in their own front yard), the nine
year old is dead and the 8 year old was wounded. Such a senseless thing
to happen. Emotions have been on the surface at the school today.
Gang bangers are such LOSERS, they can't even get it right when they are
trying to kill each other. STUPID, STUPID.
Earl Brunner
mailto:bruec@anv.net
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
Rob Van Rens on tue 10 sep 02
-----Original Message-----
From: Earl Brunner [mailto:bruec@ANV.NET]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:58 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Education
>It has not been a good day. A nine year old girl and her 8 year old
>sister from our school got in the way of some STUPID gang bangers trying
>to kill each other (the girls were in their own front yard), the nine
>year old is dead and the 8 year old was wounded. Such a senseless thing
>to happen. Emotions have been on the surface at the school today.
>Gang bangers are such LOSERS, they can't even get it right when they are
>trying to kill each other. STUPID, STUPID.
Earl,
You have my deepest sympathy and understanding. When I was a student
teacher, one of my students was killed during a gang "initiation".
Apparently it's possible to beat a nine-year-old to death in under three
minutes.
It was devastating. It was one of the reasons I decided not to become a
teacher.
Robert Van Rens, Workshop Coordinator
Otto Kroeger Associates
703-591-6284, x110 Phone
703-591-8338 Fax
www.typetalk.com
Earl Brunner
mailto:bruec@anv.net
http://coyote.accessnv.com/bruec
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Jeannean Hibbitts on sun 15 apr 12
I wish I had taken all the money I spent for my college education and used
it to travel instead. That, some well selected books, and long
conversations with both like-minded and different-minded people, and I
expect I would have been better educated.
Jeannean
Astoria, Oregon
...where the local community college has started an historic preservation
specialty, where students learn the various skills for maintaining and
restoring old buildings by actually working on ones here in town (Astoria
is nearly all old homes - mine was built in 1916)
William & Susan Schran User on sun 15 apr 12
On 4/15/12 3:53 AM, "Jeannean Hibbitts"
wrote:
>I wish I had taken all the money I spent for my college education and used
>it to travel instead. That, some well selected books, and long
>conversations with both like-minded and different-minded people, and I
>expect I would have been better educated.
I was fortunate to attend college when it was still somewhat affordable.
Undergrad was $100 for a full load in a small state college. Education, as
is anything in life - you get out of it what you put into it. In undergrad
college I worked for the art dept, helped all professors, set up labs, etc
- learned a great deal about all media even though I wasn't taking all the
classes. In grad school I worked for the ceramics and printmaking
programs, maintaining studios and equipment, also stepping in to help with
teaching some classes, because the best way to learn is to teach. I worked
long hours and did my own work towards the degree. I came out
understanding processes, techniques and how to maintain/repair equipment.
I did not sit and wait for all of this to happen, I put my self out there
and made sure everyone knew I was hard working and trustworthy.I actually
never tough about teaching while in school, never thought of myself as a
teacher - now I've been one for 34+ years and I make sure my student get
everything they need, but they've got to let me know they want it.
>
>Jeannean
>Astoria, Oregon
>...where the local community college has started an historic preservation
>specialty, where students learn the various skills for maintaining and
>restoring old buildings by actually working on ones here in town (Astoria
>is nearly all old homes - mine was built in 1916)
I see at our community college (the 1st or 2nd largest in the country) a
resurgence of the occupational/technical fields, a strong push to
workforce development and a re-education of mature working (or our of
work) students. In our state, due to declining state support (805 of our
budget came form the state 10 years ago, now it is only 20%!), many
community colleges in rural regions are struggling, losing students,
laying off teachers. Our college is proactive and flexible.We are building
and hiring.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on sun 15 apr 12
Hi Bill, all...
I sometimes wonder about the difference between what is to be regarded as
'subtle', and, 'obvious'.
Of course, there is no such thing as 'obvious' as far as that the
attribution would relate to the 'obvious' thing itself, since the
attribution relates instead to how the thing itself is supposed to be easil=
y
seen by anyone who happens to cast their glance toward it, or, that it
presumes there is someone to easily see it, since it seems to be easily
seen.
This tends to leave out how in order to see the thing, one has to have a wa=
y
to notice it in the first place, or, to distinguish it, from the background=
.
So, if no one sees something which is 'obvious', does that mean then it is
not obvious?
I think it means that it is not obvious to those who do not, or can not see
it.
Subtlety then would seem to be the ragged 'edge' of whatever is 'obvious'.
There may be 'subtle' cues to something which can then become 'obvious' onc=
e
one sees it.
One thing which is obvious to me in all of this, though it may be subtle to
others, or, un-seen by others still, is how the term 'education' was either
usurped by, or given to institutions, and, thus either abdicated by, or
stolen from, individual people as something they would have for themselves.
Or it appears that most people, maybe even nearly all people, connote the
term 'education' with the information/training services products which are
sold by institutions to people, rather than for the term to mean or
represent one's accrued or cumulative Learning, as something one does
innocently and naturally, or would have done, if not prevented or interfere=
d
with to prevent it.
In this context, people seem to think that 'education' is something seperat=
e
from Life and from one's experience of Living and being invo;ved with
various things...
Where in this having been interfered with, in 'education' having been
seperated from Life and from one's experience and involvements, with
'education' havine been seperated from 'Learning' and instead, to have been
made to be about 'Teaching', one
'gets', like 'getting' a shot of Pennicillin, or like 'getting' Carton of
Milk or a Loaf of Bread, at a
Store...that it is a product, usually a packaged product in practice, such
as 'degrees' are.
Where, on effect, one goes to an 'education store', to get-an-education
package-product one consumes or has injected into them.
And, the moment they leave the store which sells that product, their
'edcuation' pauses or stops, even if they 'use' the product in daily
life...the 'getting' part stops when they leave the institution or have
completed the delivery or reception of the packaged product...it all ends
'there', unless
they go back again to get some more.
This way of thinking - 'education' as banality-product, or, as
banalification OF
'Life', for one - hardly seems in keeping with what I would have thought to
be the idea or process of 'Learning'.
The point at which 'teaching' was substituted in both idea, appreciation,
and method, for 'learning', is also the point at which everyone subject to
it, had stepped 'through the looking glass', so to speak.
I have mentioned it before of course, but again, as far as I can tell -
The end stage senility of the Industrial Revolution, would seem to be the
phase of people being
the product of production, with the 'means' of production being in the hand=
s
of government, corporations and institutions.
With people then, as the 'product' being produced by governments,
corporations and
instutions, for the people-product to be consumed by governments,
corporations and
institutions.
Phil
L v
----- Original Message -----
From: "William & Susan Schran User"
> On 4/15/12 3:53 AM, "Jeannean Hibbitts"
> wrote:
>
>>I wish I had taken all the money I spent for my college education and use=
d
>>it to travel instead. That, some well selected books, and long
>>conversations with both like-minded and different-minded people, and I
>>expect I would have been better educated.
>
> I was fortunate to attend college when it was still somewhat affordable.
> Undergrad was $100 for a full load in a small state college. Education, a=
s
> is anything in life - you get out of it what you put into it. In undergra=
d
> college I worked for the art dept, helped all professors, set up labs, et=
c
> - learned a great deal about all media even though I wasn't taking all th=
e
> classes. In grad school I worked for the ceramics and printmaking
> programs, maintaining studios and equipment, also stepping in to help wit=
h
> teaching some classes, because the best way to learn is to teach. I worke=
d
> long hours and did my own work towards the degree. I came out
> understanding processes, techniques and how to maintain/repair equipment.
> I did not sit and wait for all of this to happen, I put my self out there
> and made sure everyone knew I was hard working and trustworthy.I actually
> never tough about teaching while in school, never thought of myself as a
> teacher - now I've been one for 34+ years and I make sure my student get
> everything they need, but they've got to let me know they want it.
>>
>>Jeannean
>>Astoria, Oregon
>>...where the local community college has started an historic preservation
>>specialty, where students learn the various skills for maintaining and
>>restoring old buildings by actually working on ones here in town (Astoria
>>is nearly all old homes - mine was built in 1916)
>
> I see at our community college (the 1st or 2nd largest in the country) a
> resurgence of the occupational/technical fields, a strong push to
> workforce development and a re-education of mature working (or our of
> work) students. In our state, due to declining state support (805 of our
> budget came form the state 10 years ago, now it is only 20%!), many
> community colleges in rural regions are struggling, losing students,
> laying off teachers. Our college is proactive and flexible.We are buildin=
g
> and hiring.
>
> Bill
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
>
>>
Ben Morrison on mon 16 apr 12
That's the way all of this should be done. We can't have schools completely=
=3D
disconnected from the marketplace. Some traditional schools are coming to =
=3D
this conclusion and offering tuition rates which one might find reasonable.=
=3D
Coupled with the connections to industry straight from college this type o=
=3D
f program makes for some of the most successful individuals right out of co=
=3D
llege I've seen. This could also be done in the pottery world, similarly to=
=3D
how some of the top manufacturers cherry pick colleges like Alfred for pos=
=3D
itions. This could be expanded to not just raise the type of personnel requ=
=3D
ired in industry but further incorporate the industry into college with res=
=3D
earch projects that would create applicable experience. What everyone is re=
=3D
ally looking for is products that are field testable not just lab testable.=
=3D
Pure academics has it's place, I don't believe I've personally found it my=
=3D
self, but I'm sure it exists.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A-Ben=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A_______=
______________=3D
___________=3D0A From: Lee =3D0ATo: Ben Morrison otte=3D
rpdx@yahoo.com> =3D0ACc: Clayart@lsv.ceramics.org =3D0ASent: Monday, April =
16, =3D
2012 3:39 PM=3D0ASubject: Re: Education=3D0A =3D0AOn Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5=
:02 PM=3D
, Ben Morrison wrote:=3D0A=3D0A> While this system se=
ems =3D
archaic and ridiculous to modern eyes, it's cost effective. That potter doe=
=3D
sn't=3D0A> come out the other side of that system with a mountain of debt a=
nd=3D
no job. Actually it's quite the opposite,=3D0A> he comes out after all tha=
t =3D
hard work with a job in the pottery, and no debt because he worked his way =
=3D
>through. If he's successful enough he can go on to open his own pottery so=
=3D
me day.=3D0A=3D0ABen,=3D0A=3D0A=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 =
=3DC2=3DA0 Apprenticing with=3D
my teacher in Mashiko wasn't typical,=3D0Abecause he was a National Living=
T=3D
reasure.=3DC2=3DA0 But it was a somewhat=3D0Amodified version of the tradti=
ional =3D
apprenticeship.=3DC2=3DA0 Apprentice=3D0Ahousing was provided, along with a=
good =3D
salary and little time to=3D0Aspend money.=3DC2=3DA0 It was possible for t=
he Jap=3D
anese students who=3D0Aapprenticed for 5 years to come out of the apprentic=
es=3D
hip with over=3D0A$50,000.00 in the bank.=3D0A=3D0A=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 =
=3DC2=3DA0 Of cours=3D
e, my situation was a little different because I lived=3D0Ain my own place =
wi=3D
th my wife Jean and had more financial=3D0Aresponsibilities in Mashiko and =
th=3D
e USA, and only apprenticed for=3D0Athree year (the longest of any foreign =
ap=3D
prentice), so I wasn't able=3D0Ato save, but I had no debt either.=3D0A=3D0=
A=3DC2=3D
=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 I apprentices after 3 classes at the UofMN, having studio=
at th=3D
e=3D0ANorthern Clay Center and attending workshops there from world class=
=3D0Ap=3D
otters from Minnesota and Wisconsin at NCC.=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=3DA0 This tripo=
d of stu=3D
dy=3D0Awas more than I could get out of any MFA program related to function=
al=3D
=3D0Aceramics.=3DC2=3DA0 Though, I would consider an MFA program with an G=
A job =3D
to=3D0Apay for tuition, just for the sheer joy of learning.=3DC2=3DA0 =3DC2=
=3DA0 I al=3D
ways think=3D0Aof myself as a student.=3D0A=3D0A--=3D0A=3DC2=3DA0Lee Love i=
n Minneapoli=3D
s=3D0Ahttp://mingeisota.blogspot.com/=3D0A=3D0A=3DC2=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DC3=
=3DB3g ar chul=3D
an tI=3DE2=3D80=3D94tIr dlainn trina ch=3DC3=3DA9ile"=3DE2=3D80=3D94that i=
s, "The=3D0Aland o=3D
f eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent=3D0Awithin its=
el=3D
f." -- John O'Donohue
Margaret Flaherty on mon 16 apr 12
This education discussion confuses two issues: the joy of learning and the
necessity of training. I remember as a school child sitting in class on
sunny days looking out the window. All that I was interested in learning
was "out there." But I'm glad my parents insisted that I be schooled. My
father used to say, "if you don't get an education, you'll wind up working
at the five and dime." Remember those? They don't exist anymore...for the
most part. Education, flawed as it may be, prepares us for the duller
requirements of life...showing up on time, working cooperatively, even with
people we think are idiots, and picking up knowledge we may not think we
need which sometimes comes in handy down the road....like knowing what
germs are.
2012/4/15
> Hi Bill, all...
>
>
> I sometimes wonder about the difference between what is to be regarded as
> 'subtle', and, 'obvious'.
>
>
> Of course, there is no such thing as 'obvious' as far as that the
> attribution would relate to the 'obvious' thing itself, since the
> attribution relates instead to how the thing itself is supposed to be
> easily
> seen by anyone who happens to cast their glance toward it, or, that it
> presumes there is someone to easily see it, since it seems to be easily
> seen.
>
> This tends to leave out how in order to see the thing, one has to have a
> way
> to notice it in the first place, or, to distinguish it, from the
> background.
>
>
>
> So, if no one sees something which is 'obvious', does that mean then it i=
s
> not obvious?
>
> I think it means that it is not obvious to those who do not, or can not s=
ee
> it.
>
>
>
> Subtlety then would seem to be the ragged 'edge' of whatever is 'obvious'=
.
>
>
> There may be 'subtle' cues to something which can then become 'obvious'
> once
> one sees it.
>
>
>
> One thing which is obvious to me in all of this, though it may be subtle =
to
> others, or, un-seen by others still, is how the term 'education' was eith=
er
> usurped by, or given to institutions, and, thus either abdicated by, or
> stolen from, individual people as something they would have for themselve=
s.
>
>
> Or it appears that most people, maybe even nearly all people, connote the
> term 'education' with the information/training services products which ar=
e
> sold by institutions to people, rather than for the term to mean or
> represent one's accrued or cumulative Learning, as something one does
> innocently and naturally, or would have done, if not prevented or
> interfered
> with to prevent it.
>
>
> In this context, people seem to think that 'education' is something
> seperate
> from Life and from one's experience of Living and being invo;ved with
> various things...
>
> Where in this having been interfered with, in 'education' having been
> seperated from Life and from one's experience and involvements, with
> 'education' havine been seperated from 'Learning' and instead, to have be=
en
> made to be about 'Teaching', one
> 'gets', like 'getting' a shot of Pennicillin, or like 'getting' Carton of
> Milk or a Loaf of Bread, at a
> Store...that it is a product, usually a packaged product in practice, suc=
h
> as 'degrees' are.
>
>
> Where, on effect, one goes to an 'education store', to get-an-education
> package-product one consumes or has injected into them.
>
>
> And, the moment they leave the store which sells that product, their
> 'edcuation' pauses or stops, even if they 'use' the product in daily
> life...the 'getting' part stops when they leave the institution or have
> completed the delivery or reception of the packaged product...it all ends
> 'there', unless
> they go back again to get some more.
>
>
> This way of thinking - 'education' as banality-product, or, as
> banalification OF
> 'Life', for one - hardly seems in keeping with what I would have thought =
to
> be the idea or process of 'Learning'.
>
>
> The point at which 'teaching' was substituted in both idea, appreciation,
> and method, for 'learning', is also the point at which everyone subject t=
o
> it, had stepped 'through the looking glass', so to speak.
>
>
>
>
> I have mentioned it before of course, but again, as far as I can tell -
>
> The end stage senility of the Industrial Revolution, would seem to be the
> phase of people being
> the product of production, with the 'means' of production being in the
> hands
> of government, corporations and institutions.
>
> With people then, as the 'product' being produced by governments,
> corporations and
> instutions, for the people-product to be consumed by governments,
> corporations and
> institutions.
>
>
>
>
> Phil
> L v
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William & Susan Schran User"
>
> On 4/15/12 3:53 AM, "Jeannean Hibbitts"
>> wrote:
>>
>> I wish I had taken all the money I spent for my college education and
>>> used
>>> it to travel instead. That, some well selected books, and long
>>> conversations with both like-minded and different-minded people, and I
>>> expect I would have been better educated.
>>>
>>
>> I was fortunate to attend college when it was still somewhat affordable.
>> Undergrad was $100 for a full load in a small state college. Education, =
as
>> is anything in life - you get out of it what you put into it. In undergr=
ad
>> college I worked for the art dept, helped all professors, set up labs, e=
tc
>> - learned a great deal about all media even though I wasn't taking all t=
he
>> classes. In grad school I worked for the ceramics and printmaking
>> programs, maintaining studios and equipment, also stepping in to help wi=
th
>> teaching some classes, because the best way to learn is to teach. I work=
ed
>> long hours and did my own work towards the degree. I came out
>> understanding processes, techniques and how to maintain/repair equipment=
.
>> I did not sit and wait for all of this to happen, I put my self out ther=
e
>> and made sure everyone knew I was hard working and trustworthy.I actuall=
y
>> never tough about teaching while in school, never thought of myself as a
>> teacher - now I've been one for 34+ years and I make sure my student get
>> everything they need, but they've got to let me know they want it.
>>
>>>
>>> Jeannean
>>> Astoria, Oregon
>>> ...where the local community college has started an historic preservati=
on
>>> specialty, where students learn the various skills for maintaining and
>>> restoring old buildings by actually working on ones here in town (Astor=
ia
>>> is nearly all old homes - mine was built in 1916)
>>>
>>
>> I see at our community college (the 1st or 2nd largest in the country) a
>> resurgence of the occupational/technical fields, a strong push to
>> workforce development and a re-education of mature working (or our of
>> work) students. In our state, due to declining state support (805 of our
>> budget came form the state 10 years ago, now it is only 20%!), many
>> community colleges in rural regions are struggling, losing students,
>> laying off teachers. Our college is proactive and flexible.We are buildi=
ng
>> and hiring.
>>
>> Bill
>> --
>> William "Bill" Schran
>> wschran@cox.net
>> wschran@nvcc.edu
>> http://www.**creativecreekartisans.comcom>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
James Freeman on mon 16 apr 12
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Margaret Flaherty
wrote:
This education discussion confuses two issues: the joy of learning and the
necessity of training.
Margaret...
I'm not sure the two are being confused or conflated. I think we are
discussing both of those separate but related issues here.
Issue 1: If one is possessed of "the joy of learning", is formal education
necessary? If one is not possessed of the joy of learning, is education
possible?
Issue 2: To what extent (and purpose) is "training" necessary? If it is
necessary, who should perform such training? Is it possible to train
oneself?
There also seems to be a third undercurrent: Are people universally
educable? The notion of universal education and literacy, at least in this
country, flows from the ideas of the great philosopher and scholar, Thomas
Jefferson. While an almost inarguably noble goal, many learned folk
consider it an idea which runs counter to basic human nature. Nock, for
instance, draws a large distinction between true literacy and the mere
ability to decipher words on a page. He agrees than while most folk can be
taught how to decipher the printed word, very few possess the ability to
truly transmit and receive any but the most basic of concepts via them. He
cites a sort of Gresham's Law of literature to explain the content of
today's bookstores and libraries (and, one could argue, cinema, music, and
even visual art) versus yesterday's.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Steve Slatin on mon 16 apr 12
James -- If that's Alberty Jay Nock you're talking about, he was
an=3D
=3D0A=3D0AJames -- If that's Alberty Jay Nock you're talking about, he was=
=3D0Aan=3D
an extremely snotty elitist, a single-taxer*, and=3DA0a fameous=3D0Aanti-S=
emit=3D
e.=3DA0 He believed that genetics was destiny (and,=3DA0hence,=3D0Ahis disl=
ike fo=3D
r what he viewed as "oriental" Jews) and his only=3D0Adefense for his bigot=
ry=3D
was to assert that he didn't particularly=3D0Adislike this or that group o=
f =3D
people; he simply=3DA0disliked all people.=3D0A=3D0AUsing him as a citation=
for a=3D
lmost any kind of idea sort of=3D0Aimpeaches the idea itself, IMHO.=3DA0=3D=
0A=3DA0=3D
=3D0A=3DA0=3D0ASteve Slatin -- =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A*Libertarians frequently cite=
him because=3D
they don't understand that=3D0Athe purpose of the single tax was to limit =
ac=3D
cumulations of wealth.=3D0A=3D0AN48.0886450=3D0AW123.1420482=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=
____________=3D
____________________=3D0A=3DA0 While an almost inarguably noble goal, many =
lear=3D
ned folk=3D0Aconsider it an idea which runs counter to basic human nature.=
=3DA0=3D
Nock, for=3D0Ainstance, draws a large distinction between true literacy an=
d =3D
the mere=3D0Aability to decipher words on a page.=3DA0 He agrees than while=
mos=3D
t folk can be=3D0Ataught how to decipher the printed word, very few possess=
t=3D
he ability to=3D0Atruly transmit and receive any but the most basic of conc=
ep=3D
ts via them.=3DA0 He=3D0Acites a sort of Gresham's Law of literature to exp=
lain=3D
the content of=3D0Atoday's bookstores and libraries (and, one could argue,=
c=3D
inema, music, and=3D0Aeven visual art) versus yesterday's.=3D0A=3D0AAll the=
best.=3D
=3D0A=3D0A...James=3D0A=3D0AJames Freeman=3D0A=3D0A"Talk sense to a fool, a=
nd he calls =3D
you foolish."=3D0A-Euripides=3D0A=3D0Ahttp://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com=3D0=
Ahttp://=3D
www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/=3D0Ahttp://www.jamesfreemanstudio=
.c=3D
om/resources
James Freeman on mon 16 apr 12
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Steve Slatin wrot=
e:
James -- If that's Alberty Jay Nock you're talking about, he was
an an extremely snotty elitist, a single-taxer*, and a fameous
anti-Semite
. ..snip...
Using him as a citation for almost any kind of idea sort of
impeaches the idea itself, IMHO.
Hi, Steve...
The charges of antisemitism against him were unfounded. They were based on
two serial articles he wrote in The Atlantic Monthly which spoke against
antisemitism. Nock merely presented an idea about why antisemitism existed
amongst the lower classes (he found it largely absent amongst the upper
classes). There is no basis for any claim that Nock shared his postulated
ideas with the lower-class groups to which he ascribed them, and indeed his
"snotty elitist" demeanor, to the extent that it even existed, would seem
to argue against his sharing anything at all with such people. He
expressed no dislike for "oriental Jews"; such merely being assumed and
ascribed to him by others who disliked his opinions and ideas. He spoke of
the Nuremberg Laws with obvious fear and disgust. He did not employ the
term "oriental" as a pejorative, and it is hard to see how one could assume
it to be so.
One need look no further than the very egalitarian Wikipedia:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
In 1941, Nock published a two-part essay in the Atlantic Monthly titled
"The Jewish Problem in America". The article was part of a multi-author
series, assembled by the editors in response to recent anti-Semitic unrest
in Brooklyn and elsewhere "in the hope that a free and forthright debate
will reduce the pressure, now dangerously high, and leave us with a
healthier understanding of the human elements involved."
Nock's argument was that the Jews were an Oriental people, acceptable to
the "intelligent Occidental" yet forever strangers to "the Occidental
mass-man." Furthermore, the mass-man "is inclined to be more resentful of
the Oriental as a competitor than of another Occidental;" the American
masses are "the great rope and lamppost artists of the world;" and in
studying Jewish history, "one is struck with the fact that persecutions
never have originated in an upper class movement". This innate hostility of
the masses, he concluded, might be exploited by a scapegoating state to
distract from "any shocks of an economic dislocation that may occur in the
years ahead." He concluded, "If I keep up my family's record of longevity,
I think it is not impossible that I shall live to see the Nuremberg laws
reenacted in this country and enforced with vigor" and affirmed that the
consequences of such a pogrom "would be as appalling in their extent and
magnitude as anything seen since the Middle Ages."
Despite this obvious dread of anti-Semitism, the article was itself
declared by some to be anti-Semitic, and Nock was never asked to write
another article, effectively ending his career as a social critic.
Against charges of anti-Semitism, Nock answered, "Someone asked me years
ago if it were true that I disliked Jews, and I replied that it was
certainly true, not at all because they are Jews but because they are
folks, and I don't like folks."[6][7] A self-admitted recluse, such a
response is but characteristic of Mr. Nock.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
In any case, even if Nock were an antisemite, an elitist, or a snob, none
of this would serve to counter his arguments in any way. An ad hominem
attack on a person offering an argument is not a refutation of that
argument. For example, I find the president of a certain large,
industrialized country to be an elitist and a snob. While this serves as
an adequate reason to dislike the man, it carries no weight at all toward
the impeachment of his ideas. Those ideas must be countered on their own
merit, or lack thereof. The most wretched-looking watch can still give the
correct time.
Take care.
...James
James Freeman
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
Ben Morrison on mon 16 apr 12
Having just come from 4 years of college, I would say that n=3D
James,=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AHaving just come from 4 years of college, I would say =
that n=3D
ot everyone needs college, unless they want to be gainfully employed at a d=
=3D
esk job in the US. For pottery specifically there are some things that you =
=3D
aren't likely to find on your own. The college provides a platform for high=
=3D
er learning that a home studio can't usually afford. Even if you take the t=
=3D
eacher out of the equation just the studio itself is enough to change the c=
=3D
ourse of one's pottery career. Couple that with a good teacher and you have=
=3D
the makings of some phenomenal learning.=3D0A=3D0AThat said, one of my fav=
orit=3D
e potters Patrick Horseley is largely self taught. His pots are good, and h=
=3D
is glazing is outrageous. Had he come from a traditional upper education sy=
=3D
stem he would not likely have made the pottery he does today. I'm not sure =
=3D
that everyone can do what Patrick Horseley did. In today's modern society o=
=3D
f free information one could educate themselves even beyond what's being ta=
=3D
ught in the colleges, but it would probably take more time. =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=
The re=3D
al problem with pottery to the MFA level is the cost. In the old system to =
=3D
get to be a master you started out shoveling clay. Then mixing clay, then k=
=3D
neading etc., until you were graduated into making pots for the master pott=
=3D
er. While this system seems archaic and ridiculous to modern eyes, it's cos=
=3D
t effective. That potter doesn't come out the other side of that system wit=
=3D
h a mountain of debt and no job. Actually it's quite the opposite, he comes=
=3D
out after all that hard work with a job in the pottery, and no debt becaus=
=3D
e he worked his way through. If he's successful enough he can go on to open=
=3D
his own pottery some day.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AI find that learning never really =
ends. =3D
I read constantly about pottery and find new things all the time.=3D0A=3D0A=
-Ben=3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0A From: James Freem=
an reemanstudio@GMAIL.COM>=3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG =3D0ASent: Monday,=
Apr=3D
il 16, 2012 7:48 AM=3D0ASubject: Re: Education=3D0A =3D0AOn Mon, Apr 16, 20=
12 at =3D
8:17 AM, Margaret Flaherty=3D0Awrote:=3D0AThis edu=
cati=3D
on discussion confuses two issues: the joy of learning and the=3D0Anecessit=
y =3D
of training.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AMargaret...=3D0A=3D0AI'm not sure the =
two are being =3D
confused or conflated.=3DA0 I think we are=3D0Adiscussing both of those sep=
arat=3D
e but related issues here.=3D0A=3D0AIssue 1:=3DA0 If one is possessed of "t=
he joy=3D
of learning", is formal education=3D0Anecessary?=3DA0 If one is not posses=
sed =3D
of the joy of learning, is education=3D0Apossible?=3D0A=3D0AIssue 2:=3DA0 T=
o what e=3D
xtent (and purpose) is "training" necessary?=3DA0 If it is=3D0Anecessary, w=
ho s=3D
hould perform such training?=3DA0 Is it possible to train=3D0Aoneself?=3D0A=
=3D0AThe=3D
re also seems to be a third undercurrent:=3DA0 Are people universally=3D0Ae=
duca=3D
ble?=3DA0 The notion of universal education and literacy, at least in this=
=3D0A=3D
country, flows from the ideas of the great philosopher and scholar, Thomas=
=3D
=3D0AJefferson.=3DA0 While an almost inarguably noble goal, many learned fo=
lk=3D
=3D0Aconsider it an idea which runs counter to basic human nature.=3DA0 Noc=
k, f=3D
or=3D0Ainstance, draws a large distinction between true literacy and the me=
re=3D
=3D0Aability to decipher words on a page.=3DA0 He agrees than while most fo=
lk c=3D
an be=3D0Ataught how to decipher the printed word, very few possess the abi=
li=3D
ty to=3D0Atruly transmit and receive any but the most basic of concepts via=
t=3D
hem.=3DA0 He=3D0Acites a sort of Gresham's Law of literature to explain the=
con=3D
tent of=3D0Atoday's bookstores and libraries (and, one could argue, cinema,=
m=3D
usic, and=3D0Aeven visual art) versus yesterday's.=3D0A=3D0AAll the best.=
=3D0A=3D0A..=3D
.James=3D0A=3D0AJames Freeman=3D0A=3D0A"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls =
you fool=3D
ish."=3D0A-Euripides=3D0A=3D0Ahttp://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com=3D0Ahttp://=
www.flic=3D
kr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/=3D0Ahttp://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/res=
ou=3D
rces
Lee on mon 16 apr 12
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Ben Morrison wrote:
> While this system seems archaic and ridiculous to modern eyes, it's cost =
=3D
effective. That potter doesn't
> come out the other side of that system with a mountain of debt and no job=
=3D
. Actually it's quite the opposite,
> he comes out after all that hard work with a job in the pottery, and no d=
=3D
ebt because he worked his way >through. If he's successful enough he can go=
=3D
on to open his own pottery some day.
Ben,
Apprenticing with my teacher in Mashiko wasn't typical,
because he was a National Living Treasure. But it was a somewhat
modified version of the tradtiional apprenticeship. Apprentice
housing was provided, along with a good salary and little time to
spend money. It was possible for the Japanese students who
apprenticed for 5 years to come out of the apprenticeship with over
$50,000.00 in the bank.
Of course, my situation was a little different because I lived
in my own place with my wife Jean and had more financial
responsibilities in Mashiko and the USA, and only apprenticed for
three year (the longest of any foreign apprentice), so I wasn't able
to save, but I had no debt either.
I apprentices after 3 classes at the UofMN, having studio at the
Northern Clay Center and attending workshops there from world class
potters from Minnesota and Wisconsin at NCC. This tripod of study
was more than I could get out of any MFA program related to functional
ceramics. Though, I would consider an MFA program with an GA job to
pay for tuition, just for the sheer joy of learning. I always think
of myself as a student.
--
=3DA0Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3DA0"Ta tIr na n-=3DF3g ar chul an tI=3D97tIr dlainn trina ch=3DE9ile"=3D9=
7that is, =3D
"The
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue
Wyndham Dennison on tue 17 apr 12
> Having just come from 4 years of college, I would say that
> not everyone needs college, unless they want to be gainfully employed at =
a
> desk job in the US. For pottery specifically there are some things that y=
ou
> aren't likely to find on your own. The college provides a platform for hi=
gh=3D
> er learning that a home studio can't usually afford. Even if you take the=
t=3D
> eacher out of the equation just the studio itself is enough to change the=
c=3D
> ourse of one's pottery career. Couple that with a good teacher and you ha=
ve=3D
> the makings of some phenomenal learning.
Please revisit this statement 10 or 15 or...25 years from now after
setting up a studio, built a kiln, open a gallery or have do art shows
for 30 years, have had good and bad customers, bills that could not
wait, have to wait because a storm destroyed every piece you made as
well as the canopy and display.
The arrogance of higher education is the problem of higher education.
The late Harding Black did not have the luxury of a higher education ,
yet he developed clays and glazing techniques that few understand today
though he shared everything he ever learned with anyone who asked.
Look back to the potters of early America. Look to Dave the Slave who's
turning skill was learned by the necessity of survival. Put your hands
in the finger ridges of a butter churn turned by Dave and imagine
getting paid pennies BTW "Slave " is the operative work.
If you truly want an education in clay, you will stand, as all of us do,
on the shoulders of the generations of giants that allow be part of the
craft.
Welcome to the beginning of learning.
Wyndham
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