CFisher995@aol.com on fri 12 jul 96
Well I'm just adjusting to jet lag and get back to the states. Spent the last
12 days in Greece and Turkey. Really wasn't expecting to find the amount of
pottery I saw but bought a lot and could have bought more. I was in Greece
and 5 of the islands (Rhodes, Mykonos, Patmos, Hydra, Aegina and Poros) as
well as Kusadasi, Turkey.
Got to see a lot of early Greek pottery - small items, broken shards, large
pots. Got a booklet on early pottery, although I had to buy it for the
pictures - they didn't have it in English in the four places I saw it. Ended
up buying iy in Swedish but I wanted the pictures. Got a booklet from
Ceramotechnica which works in traditional techniques. They had three lines:
Cobalt blue glaze faience; sandy or white (dull) glaze faience; and copies.
The copies are traditional forms with traditional designs copied from the
early time periods. They had a nice vessel that I wanted but it amound to
59,000 dracmas which translated into $245 at the time.
Came across a nice little store on Hydra that sold more modern pottery by
current artists, Could get away without a small raku piece, a smoke fired
piece and two more modern pieces with brighter colors.
I found another store on another island that had so many things that I loved.
I ended up buying a samll bowl, although I would have loved to buy some of
the larger pieces.
We visited another ceramics factory that did onglaze decoration that
resembled enamel. Got to see the potter throwing a piece and the workers
painting the pieces. A young girl was huddled very closely over one piece
painting fine details. Bought a couple of pieces here although it was not my
taste. They used imagery indicative of Greece.
The last day in Athens I found a few more shops with pottery - some the same
that I found in various islands some different. There seemed to be a
proliferation of the traditional you could buy copies all over the place.
There was also a proliferation of more modern painterly decoration -
majolica/faience. And there seemed to be a proliferation of strong,bright
colors - purples/blues.
We were only in Turkey for a short time so I didn't get to see their pottery
- except as the bus cruised by a coule of places.
I know that I may regret not being able to buy some of the stuff but did buy
a nice collection of small stuff - After all I had a limited budget.
Colin A on thu 25 sep 97
Hello everyone,
Interested in classical pottery? I have worked hard to
bring back the work of ancient masters. No complicated
Artist's statements here, just a love of Greek Pottery.
Please sign guest book. Be patient because the photos are
large and are high resolution. Colin A.
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8494/
http://magdalena.cs.nmt.edu/cmd=list&gi21=3&gs1=pottery&gi10=477&gi7=0
ion siotis on sat 27 sep 97
Colin A,
Your shapes are great but the ancient Attic Black Glaze (Gloss) was not
Cobalt based. I have spent the best part of the last five years doing
physicochemical analyses and reproduction experiments to determine the
exact nature of the glaze and more importantly of the glaze
preparation,application and firing procedure used by the ancient potters
of the classical period.
In this work I decided to use only locally (Attica,Greece) available
natural materials without adding any natural or artificial defloculants
or any other chemicals.Stability of results was another major
consideration.
There is a huge bibliography on the subject but all practical
prescriptions for modern reproduction involve the use of additives.
I am now preparing a website on the subject which will give all the
details and through which anyone interested will be able to acquire the
original Attic Black.I will keep you posted about this,
Eleni
Jean Silverman on tue 30 sep 97
On Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:36:16 EDT, ion siotis
wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Colin A,
>
>Your shapes are great but the ancient Attic Black Glaze (Gloss) was not
>Cobalt based. I have spent the best part of the last five years doing
>physicochemical analyses and reproduction experiments to determine the
>exact nature of the glaze and more importantly of the glaze
>preparation,application and firing procedure used by the ancient potters
>of the classical period.
>In this work I decided to use only locally (Attica,Greece) available
>natural materials without adding any natural or artificial defloculants
>or any other chemicals.Stability of results was another major
>consideration.
>There is a huge bibliography on the subject but all practical
>prescriptions for modern reproduction involve the use of additives.
>I am now preparing a website on the subject which will give all the
>details and through which anyone interested will be able to acquire the
>original Attic Black.I will keep you posted about this,
>
>Eleni
Eleni--
I admit I've been out of touch with the field for a while, but it had
been my impression, in grad school and long afterward, that Joseph V.
Noble had solved the mysteries of Attic Red- and Black-Figured wares a
long time ago. See his book (prob. only in libraries these days) *The
Technique of Painted Attic Pottery* (1965). Sorry I don't have a
publisher reference.
I'll be interested in your follow-ups.
Jean
Newmarket NH
ion siotis on tue 30 sep 97
Dear all,
As mentioned in my last message there is a huge bibliography on the
subject of the Attic Black.Up to 1929 the situation is reviewed in the
article by Binns and Fraser "The genesis of the Greek black glaze"
American Journal of Archaeology vol 33 p.1-9 (1929).
On the more practical side Noble in the 1960's published "The technique
of Attic vase-painting"in American Journal of Archaeology vol 64
p 307-318 (1960) and "The techniques of painted Attic pottery"
Watson-Guptill Publications,New York (1965).
Unfortunately Noble suggests the use of defloculants (calgon) to achieve
the desired clay based glaze granularity and properties. More generally
none of the scientific articles give a detailed prescription for glaze
preparation and my reproduction experiments based on their information
gave rather erratic results.
I agree that the term "glaze" is questionable for a clay based sinter
which is only partially vitrified.
In the case of greek pottery the term glaze was adopted to discriminate
the perfect shiny black surface finish of the Attic products of the
classical period from previous(geometric, mycenean, minoan,even
neolithic) imperfect dark color finishes achieved by the application of
the same technique (the ,so called ,Iron reduction technique).
Just like in many other areas ,including the craft of the ceramist ,
perfection is the result of accumulated experience combined with the
conscious and disciplined application of certain rules.
To this effect I performed numerous laboratory experiments using
different clays and firing conditions in order to get a thorough
understanding of the most widespread and sophisticated decoration
technique in antiquity.
The results were validated by comparing original Attic black sherds to
the reproduced items using scanning electron microscopy for the
morphology and microanalysis for the chemical constitution.
The details of all this would go beyond the scope of this list and would
abuse the patience of most subscribers.I hope that the information will
be on the web before Christmas. In the meanwhile I would very much like
to hear from anyone who has experimented with similar matters
Eleni A
Colin A on tue 30 sep 97
ion siotis wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Colin A,
>
> Your shapes are great but the ancient Attic Black Glaze (Gloss) was not
> Cobalt based. I have spent the best part of the last five years doing
> physicochemical analyses and reproduction experiments to determine the
> exact nature of the glaze and more importantly of the glaze
> preparation,application and firing procedure used by the ancient potters
> of the classical period.
> In this work I decided to use only locally (Attica,Greece) available
> natural materials without adding any natural or artificial defloculants
> or any other chemicals.Stability of results was another major
> consideration.
> There is a huge bibliography on the subject but all practical
> prescriptions for modern reproduction involve the use of additives.
> I am now preparing a website on the subject which will give all the
> details and through which anyone interested will be able to acquire the
> original Attic Black.I will keep you posted about this,
>
> Eleni
Thank You Eleni,
My "modern" reproductions are a "cheat" because of the labor and instability
of original, three phase reduction firings of the ancient masters. For now I
mix commercial cobalt and other ingredients together with a commercial, low
fire matt glaze for the smooth black. I cannot settle into the notion that
a vase with hundreds of hours painting should be fired with such a delicate
and demanding process. I would guess that the masters had specialists to
fire their kilns.
I am very interested in the original techniques and I look forward to your
proposed site. If there is a way in which I might assist please let me
know. Thanks for the time and please check my site next month for the "new
and improved " version! Thanks again...Colin
Vince Pitelka on wed 1 oct 97
>My "modern" reproductions are a "cheat" because of the labor and instability
>of original, three phase reduction firings of the ancient masters. For now I
>mix commercial cobalt and other ingredients together with a commercial, low
>fire matt glaze for the smooth black. I cannot settle into the notion that
>a vase with hundreds of hours painting should be fired with such a delicate
>and demanding process. I would guess that the masters had specialists to
>fire their kilns.
Colin -
I am very impressed by your mastery of traditional Greek shapes and imagery,
and I recommend that others check out the work at
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8494/
You are obviously very serious about this, and I suppose many of us would
like to know why you do not use the original Greek firing techniques. It
seems that enough is known about them that with some experimentation you
could learn to control the firing process. The following will sound like an
over-simplification, but I cannot imagine putting that much work into
reproduction Greek work without doing it properly (I know you understand the
process - the details I mention are for the benefit of others). With
adequate experimentation on simple test-pieces, you will come up with a
black "glaze" (really a vitreous engobe) that vitrifies adequately so as not
to re-oxidize to red (Noble uses the term "sintering" improperly - a
sintered surface is highly porous, and would re-oxidize). Then, as long as
you keep your firing even, and gauge the maturing temperature carefully by
including plenty of draw tiles and pulling them frequently (to assure that
the black stays black and the red re-oxidizes back to red), it seems that it
would be a sure thing. I would be interested to hear what you have to say
about this.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
eleni aloupi on thu 2 oct 97
Vince,Colin,Jean etc
I was very touched by Colin A message.I have come across three greek
professionals who invested a lot of effort and money trying to reproduce
the quality of the Attic vases by following Noble's recipe without ever
succeeding to get satisfactory and consistent results.
By adding calgon as a defloculant to enhance dispersion of the finest
clay particles in a water-clay system one gets a slip which indeed gives
a dark grey-dark brown or even black surface rather easily when fired
anywhere between 850 and 1050 degrees centigrade in the proper
oxidizing-reducing-oxidizng sequence.
However,the calgon enhanced slip ,after firing ,results in a phosphorus
rich glaze that differs in its chemistry and appearance (to the expert
eye)from the original. The use of calgon or of any other modern
defloculant raises also the rarher delicate question of "cheating".
By analysing ancient sherds the exact firing sequence used was
established as well as the fact that locally available clays without
additives can do the job. The trick here lies in the choice of the right
clay and its treatment to achieve the proper granularity of the
supension.
By the way, Noble's recipe was preceded by the works of Schumann in 1942
(Berichten der Deutschen Keramischen Gesellschaft,vol 23,p 408-27) and
of Winter in 1959 (Die Technik des griechische Topfers in ihrem
Grundlagen,Technische Beitrage zur Arcaeologie vol 1
Romische-Germanische Zentralmuseums, Mainz). Both authors suggest the
use natural or modern defloculants and my comments on Noble apply also
to their recipes.
To cut a long story short it is very difficult for scholars to reproduce
the accumulated experience of many generations of ancient craftsmen.
The real challenge lies in creating a vase which cannot be distiguished
by any physico-chemical or aesthetic analysis from the original (leaving
aside of course the dating of the firing event by thermoluminescence).
Eleni Aloupi
Vince Pitelka on fri 3 oct 97
>The real challenge lies in creating a vase which cannot be distiguished
>by any physico-chemical or aesthetic analysis from the original (leaving
>aside of course the dating of the firing event by thermoluminescence).
>
>Eleni Aloupi
Eleni -
I really appreciate all your information. It is evident that you have
researched this thoroughly. But I think it is a bit extreme to say that
"The real challenge lies in creating a vase which cannot be distiguished by
any physico-chemical or aesthetic analysis from the original." This of
course depends entirely on what the individual craftsperson is attempting to
accomplish. For many artisans, simply duplicating the appearance of the
ancient red-black wares (without the use of any modern commercial glazes or
underglazes) would be a tremendous accomplishment, and if there is no
attempt here at black-market antiquities, it should not matter a bit if
there are differences which can be detected photochemically. I remember
reading, although I cannot remember where, a suggestion that perhaps the
Greek potters added a wood-ash concentrate to the black slip, which would
provide a modest fluxing effect, allowing the slip to vitrify while the red
slip remains porous. If this were the case, it would be hard to determine
that this was not a component of the clay or slip itself. And if in fact
the difference does depend entirely on variations in slip, I wonder if it is
perhaps just a much higher-iron slip which remains black - perhaps something
similar to American slip clays like Barnard slip and Albany slip. The iron
would be converted from the refractory ferric to the fluxing ferrous by the
reduction, and if present in sufficient amounts, could cause adequate
vitrification to prevent the re-oxidation to ferric iron.
I am familiar with the theory that the smaller particle size in the black
slip prevents it from re-oxidizing, but I have a little trouble with this.
I have seen irreversible reduction to black in a red-clay sigilatta, but I
cannot see how it would be possible to make a deep brick-red slip which
would shine like a true terra sig but would still re-oxidize to red on the
same piece with the one that remained black. See what I mean?? Without the
addition of a flux, the two circumstances seem mutually exclusive. A
sigilatta which is fine enough to shine properly and contains enough iron
will remain black in cooling if fired high enough in reduction, but I cannot
see how one could come up with one which will shine properly and re-oxidize
to an intense red when fired to the same temperature.
I really want to understand this. I wish I had more time to do my own
research. Someday.
- Vince
Colin A on sat 4 oct 97
I sometimes feel I have the easy part. I simply work for endless hours toward
the imitation of a beloved medium. The rewards have been the approving family
and friends. I hope my pots will go on for generations and remind people that
love of beauty and quality has it's rewards. In the process of emulating these
vessels I pay homage to a group of potters who spanned generations with a
national pride and contribution. It is amazing to me that these pieces were
made for function! Alas perhaps the most famous of all pottery has a
utilitarian foundation! Pottery and sculpture are why we have images of
everyday life and culture in ancient Greece. I am honored to emulate these
masters and overwhelmed by the response to my humble page.
Vince and Eleni, you amaze me with your knowledge. I hope you will work with
me in the coming years because this I will tell you now. I will not rest until
I have completed my homage series in the most accurate and comprehensive
techniques. That I assure you I will not do alone.
I urge anyone with picture or link related to Greek Pottery to send them to me.
Thanks again to everyone...
Colin
Vince Pitelka on mon 23 jun 03
> I look for the imagery in the kylix--a round circle.
> Often the artist bends the subject slightly to the form,
> or designs the figure to use the space beautifully.
> I also think the images on Panathenaic jars,
> those given at prizes for the games,
> are often dynamic designs, full of energy.
> Worth looking for.
Diana -
Of course they are worth looking at, and much of the imagery is very well
placed. But they are rarely as exciting as the black figure wares.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Diana Pancioli on mon 23 jun 03
"In
too?many?cases,?the?images?are?pretty?lifeless,?and?are?often?poorly?
placed on?the?pot."??
Yes, Vince, but if you look at the bright side--some of the images are
brilliantly placed!
I look for the imagery in the kylix--a round circle.
Often the artist bends the subject slightly to the form,
or designs the figure to use the space beautifully.
I also think the images on Panathenaic jars,
those given at prizes for the games,
are often dynamic designs, full of energy.
Worth looking for.
D.
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