Talbott on wed 6 nov 96
Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
Marshall Talbott
Pottery By Celia
Route 114
P.O. Box 4116
Naples, Maine 04055-4116
(207)693-6100 voice and fax
clupus@ime.net
sutter on thu 7 nov 96
Talbott wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
> or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
> cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
> Marshall Talbott
> Pottery By Celia
> Route 114
> P.O. Box 4116
> Naples, Maine 04055-4116
> (207)693-6100 voice and fax
> clupus@ime.net
''''''''''''''''''''''''
I FEEL that they are worth more, because they are created by the
indivual artist...and can't be duplicated like a piece that has been
cast or ram pressed. I THINK that whichever is the most pleasing to the
eye would probably be worth more to the indivual looking at it.
Sincerely, Debra
Andrew S Lubow on thu 7 nov 96
What a loaded question! It does not matter to me how it was executed. If
any piece strikes my fancy I'll pay a fair price for it. (after
dickering).
On Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:52:46 EST Talbott writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are
>hand-built
>or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are
>slip
>cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
>Marshall Talbott
>Pottery By Celia
>Route 114
>P.O. Box 4116
>Naples, Maine 04055-4116
>(207)693-6100 voice and fax
>clupus@ime.net
>
Kirk Morrison on fri 8 nov 96
On 6 Nov 96 at 9:52, Talbott wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
> or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
> cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
> Marshall Talbott
> Pottery By Celia
> Route 114
> P.O. Box 4116
> Naples, Maine 04055-4116
> (207)693-6100 voice and fax
> clupus@ime.net
>
>
Assuming you mean using a mold that the artist/craftsman(person for the
p.c. types ) made I would say equal, especially if the decoration
involves real skill.
Kirk
Terrance Lazaroff on fri 8 nov 96
The value of any ceramic peice can only be established by the purchaser. It
is the buyer that accepts the value placed on the peice. The method of
manufacture (I hate that word) should have nothing to do with the value.
Terrance F Lazaroff
St Hubert, Quebec, CANADA!!!
Matthew Blumenthal on fri 8 nov 96
They are to me. I can't speak for the market out there. Actually, my
observation of the very limited market in which I participate is that people
are more interested at the moment in the quality of the decoration than the
process by which the piece was made. Reminds me of another recent thread.....
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
>Marshall Talbott
>Pottery By Celia
>Route 114
>P.O. Box 4116
>Naples, Maine 04055-4116
>(207)693-6100 voice and fax
>clupus@ime.net
>
>
*******************************
*Matthew Blumenthal *
*Oakland CA *
*Potter, Guitar Player, *
*General Computer Nut *
*mattb@ix.netcom.com *
*http://www.netcom.com/~mattb/*
******************************
Sam Cuttell on fri 8 nov 96
At 09:52 AM 11/6/96 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
Is this a trick question?
YES
Slip casting came be made by anyone with just a few days training. Compare
that with making a simple mug on the wheel...a few days training won't even
get you centered.........
AARRGHHH - YES YES YES YES
I think that covers it.
I'm heading to the medicine chest for some relief.
sam - alias the cat lady
Home of Manx cats, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and the odd horse
Melbourne, Ontario, CANADA
(SW Ontario)
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
Eleanora Eden on sat 9 nov 96
Hi All,
PUHLEASE!! The wheel is a tool. The mold is a tool. You can make junk
from both. None of these formulas for judgment save you from having
to look at the work and make decisions.
Eleanora
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@maple.sover.net
[the address fga@world.std.com is temporary. My mailbox at
eden@maple.sover.net still works -- do not change address books]
Daniel Vito on sat 9 nov 96
>
>Slip casting came be made by anyone with just a few days training. Compare
>that with making a simple mug on the wheel...a few days training won't even
>get you centered.........
>
>AARRGHHH - YES YES YES YES
>
NO NO NO NO
Everything about slip casting is harder and more technically challenging
than throwing, except the actual pouring. If throwing made pots virtuous,
how come there are so many crappy thrown pots? That's not to say there
are't plenty of crappy cast pots, either. The virtue is in the pot, not the
process. Feel free to use what ever process works best.
Daniel Vito fireborn@lm.com.
Fireborn Studios Ph. (412)488-6835
2338 Sarah Street Fax (412)488-3812
Pittsburgh, PA 15203 "good functional pots"
Vince Pitelka on sun 10 nov 96
>Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>Marshall Talbott
I'll jump in on this one, partly because I feel strongly about it, and
partly because I want to see what surfaces if I stir up the "pot."
I personally tend to place a much higher value on pieces which are
individually made by hand. But let's clarify something here. If a piece is
slip-cast or ram pressed and dipped or sprayed with glaze, then it is mass
produced, and it is not really appropriate to say that it is hand made.
Slip-casting and ram-pressing are wonderful techniques for any potter who is
willing to abandon the notion of individually hand-made wares in order to
escalate studio operation to the level of a small factory, but one must be
honest and straightforward to the public.
Wares which are individually made by hand have that spark of originality.
They possess a small part of the artist who made them, and SHOULD be much
more valuable than mass-produced wares.
In my opinion, in order for ram-pressed or slip-cast work to rise into the
realm of hand-thrown or hand-built wares, they must be transformed through
considerable hand-work AFTER they are cast or ram-pressed. Some artists,
like Richard Shaw, use slip-cast components in the construction of
hand-built sculpture. Others, like Richard Notkin, produce a limited
edition of slip-cast pieces which are then individually carved and finished
by hand. The same would be true of any work where the slip-casting or
ram-pressing process simply provides a "blank" which is then subjected to
hand-working processes which significantly transforms it into an
individualed work, unlike any other that is cast or ram-pressed from the
same molds.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with ram-pressing or slip-casting, as long
as you admit that you are using industrial mas-production processes rather
than traditional hand-working process. The ram-pressing or slip-casting
should be acknowledged as part of the process when the work is sold, and
unless the decoration and/or finish of each piece is individually designed
and executed, and makes it stand out from all others, then the work is
mass-produced and should not be sold as hand-made
So, whadaya think about this??
- Vince
..
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@Dekalb.Net
Phone - home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801
Appalachian Center for Crafts, Smithville TN 37166
Akita-jin \"Lee Love\" on sun 10 nov 96
Daniel Vito wrote:
> NO NO NO NO
>
> Everything about slip casting is harder and more technically challenging
> than throwing, except the actual pouring. If throwing made pots virtuous,
> how come there are so many crappy thrown pots? That's not to say there
> are't plenty of crappy cast pots, either. The virtue is in the pot, not the
> process. Feel free to use what ever process works best.
Hi Daniel,
I agree, virtue can be found in both types of work, but I have to
disagree about process. Some processes are not humane to the worker.
These are not virtuous processes.
I believe that as the potter forms the clay, the clay forms the
potter. This is the main reason why I make pottery. If we just look
at creativity in materialistic terms, the work stops being a container
of Life. Process is very important. Because we have forgotton this
in modern times, humanity is hurting.
Lee
====================================================
/(o\ Lee Love In "St. Paul", MN ' Come see some pixs of my AkitaPup:
\o)/ mailto:LeeLove@millcomm.com ' http://www.millcomm.com/~leelove
Lee@bruce-lee.com ' "It gets late early out there."
-Yogi Berra-
Michael McDowell on sun 10 nov 96
Marshall,
There is a basic problem with your question. You ask if handbuilt or handthrown
pots are more valuable than slip cast or ram pressed pots, ALL OTHER THINGS
BEING EQUAL. Casting & pressing are essentially industrial processes employed to
make large numbers of identical pieces. Wheel throwing & handbuilding can be
approached in that way as well, and if this is the case then I don't feel that
there is necessarily any premium value to be placed on them. But direct forming
of pots from plastic clay will allow one to create forms not suitable for
production through pressing or casting, thus giving reason to use those
processes even in an industrial setting.
However, there are subtleties attainable in the direct formation of pots that
can arise out of the context & intent behind their creation that can never be
achieved through an industrial process. If it is the potter's intent to breathe
life into each individual piece as he creates it, and if the potter has the
skill & spirit to achieve this goal, then there is no way that a mechanical
replication of such pieces can be equated to the originals.
I remember proposing to a noted potter once that his meticulously handbuilt bowl
forms would make excellent prototypes for drinking fountains. He was outraged!
"You can't do that!" he exclaimed, "Those are my prayers!"
Prayerfully made pots are not just empty forms. They are full of meaning. They
have value that derives from how they came to be. But it is not so simple as
whether they were made on the wheel or cast, for it is always possible to
produce spiritless work by whatever means.
Michael McDowell
Whatcom County, WA, USA
z_hustonmr@TITAN.SFASU.EDU on sun 10 nov 96
I think it all depends on how you use the materials. For example look at
Notkin's teapots! They are wonderfully intricate, yet they are slip cast.
I have also seen really nice handbuilt and press moulded ceramics. In my
eyes neither process is the best overall. It all depends upon weather the
person making the peice has enough ability and careing to make a good
peice. (What is good is another argument all together!)
Rebecca Huston
RHS Linux User on sun 10 nov 96
In article ,
Talbott writes:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
> or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
> cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
Yes, I do.
Granted, if a piece is identical in every respect to the 'original',
and _IF_ you are buying the piece for its functionality, then I would
think that they are worth equal amounts. However, I buy even functional
pieces for their artistic merit, and I see no artistic merit in the
copying of a good piece. In fact, I feel that the copies decrease the
value of the original.
For those that would disagree, let me ask you if you would pay as much
for a photocopy of a charcoal sketch as you would the original?
If not, why wouldn't you apply the samne criteria to another art form.
Dave and Pat Eitel on mon 11 nov 96
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>>or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>>cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>>Marshall Talbott
>
>I'll jump in on this one, partly because I feel strongly about it, and
>partly because I want to see what surfaces if I stir up the "pot."
>
>I personally tend to place a much higher value on pieces which are
>individually made by hand....(etc)
I think Vince is absolutely on the mark!
Later...Dave
Dave Eitel
Cedar Creek Pottery
Cedarburg, WI
pots@cedarcreekpottery.com
http://www.cedarcreekpottery.com
Peter Tomich on mon 11 nov 96
"I see no artistic merit in the
copying of a good piece. In fact, I feel that the copies decrease the
value of the original.
For those that would disagree, let me ask you if you would pay as much
for a photocopy of a charcoal sketch as you would the original?
If not, why wouldn't you apply the samne criteria to another art form."
----------------------------------------
What about printmaking, where you work a stone or metal plate or block
of wood, and the original is never meant to be the artwork. I'm no
expert on slipcasting wares, but I believe it's difficult to get a good
cast and leave the original intact. If not let me know, because I have
some glassware I'd like to cast, but they're antique and the original
would definately be worth more than the copies. In the case of
printing, the number of copies does make a difference to the value of
each individual copy, but in printing an edition, you strive to pull
identical prints. They aren't worth less because they are copies.
Posters on the other hand which are mass-produced are different.
So, the fact that an art object is a copy by an artist of their own
original piece, should not decrease it's value. It's slipcasting by the
hundreds and thousands so that the item is as common as dirt that
renders them of less monetary value and deprives people of the
satisfaction of owning a hand-made, very individual, although not
necessarily high quality object (re:art vs. craft...ha, ha! ).
Note I said less monetary value not individual personal satisfaction,
sentiment, etc. inherent in decorating a bisqued piece, or trimming a
greenware slip-cast object for yourself or others.
I also agree with Vince's post that " If a piece is
slip-cast or ram pressed and dipped or sprayed with glaze, then it is
mass
produced, and it is not really appropriate to say that it is hand made.
Slip-casting and ram-pressing are wonderful techniques for any potter
who is
willing to abandon the notion of individually hand-made wares in order
to
escalate studio operation to the level of a small factory, but one must
be
honest and straightforward to the public."
Let's get a balance.
Sam in Hawaii
Don Jones on tue 12 nov 96
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I personally tend to place a much higher value on pieces which are
>individually made by hand. But let's clarify something here. If a piece is
>slip-cast or ram pressed and dipped or sprayed with glaze, then it is mass
>produced, and it is not really appropriate to say that it is hand made.
>Slip-casting and ram-pressing are wonderful techniques for any potter who is
>willing to abandon the notion of individually hand-made wares in order to
>escalate studio operation to the level of a small factory, but one must be
>honest and straightforward to the public.
>
I agree, Vince,
However, with one exception. Jepson pottery and other mass producers can
produce a lot of hand thrown ware which competes with cast ware price-wise.
I remember a postcard I got from him some time ago where he advertised
thrown cone 10 reduction mugs for $3! How does he do this?
Don Jones
I do both in Albuquerque
Dustin K. Martin on tue 12 nov 96
In response to this:
>Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
Interesting question. Many people would say, of course the handmade is worth
more than the machine or mold. I can see most people in clayart thinking
this way. But if you think about it, Leach himself took molds of what he
considered his best forms and Hamada produced those beautiful curved bottles
by press molding. Whether it is worth more money or not is really not the
question i think. What your asking is does one process intrinsically have
more value than the other. If you believe in the value of ready-made art
and the ideas of Duchamp and likeminds, there would be no question- there
are no such things as short-cuts in art. It simply is what it is. The
machine made piece from Kmart has no aesthetic value because it lacks
design, thoughtfulness, and human touch- and it shows! It comes down to the
makers' intentions and the design of his/her product. Are they really
trying to say something, contributing to art community or are they
mindlessly cranking out work that has no hope of change? I think that
potters get so wrapped up in the romantic idea of simply making pots, they
don't continue to search new ideas, new form, new processes, new surfaces,
and are constantly worried about numbers- they themselves become machines of
mediocrety. If this were the only case, give me good design and the
machine. For what it is worth, this is my opinion
Dustin Martin
Larry Phillips on tue 12 nov 96
In article <3286AE8B.1F6B@interpac.net>,
Peter Tomich writes:
> What about printmaking, where you work a stone or metal plate or block
> of wood, and the original is never meant to be the artwork.
Prints are great example of what I mean. The original is most certainly
the first print pulled, and not the stone/plate, wood block, etc. As
you point out, the value of a print decreases with the number printed.
> In the case of
> printing, the number of copies does make a difference to the value of
> each individual copy, but in printing an edition, you strive to pull
> identical prints. They aren't worth less because they are copies.
Well, they are, really. If size of the edition is a very big factor in
the value, and that, in turn, is determined by the customer. For example,
I might feel that a print in an edition of 100 is a bargain at $500, but
that the same print in an edition of 1000 is overpriced at $200.
> So, the fact that an art object is a copy by an artist of their own
> original piece, should not decrease it's value.
Well, it would for me.
> It's slipcasting by the
> hundreds and thousands so that the item is as common as dirt that
> renders them of less monetary value and deprives people of the
> satisfaction of owning a hand-made, very individual, although not
> necessarily high quality object (re:art vs. craft...ha, ha! ).
You have again helpd my point. If an object has beauty, but is mass
produced, it is worth less than the original, in my opinion. Making
a slip-cast copy is just another point on the mass-production curve,
quite far to the other end, of course.
> Let's get a balance.
You balance. I vote with my wallet, and am uncompromising in my
art purchases. I only buy what I REALLY like, and part of that
liking has to do with how it was produced.
I also expect others to judge my work according to their own criteria,
of course.
Kirk Morrison on wed 13 nov 96
On 12 Nov 96 at 8:57, Larry Phillips wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> In article <3286AE8B.1F6B@interpac.net>,
> Peter Tomich writes:
>
> > What about printmaking, where you work a stone or metal plate or block
> > of wood, and the original is never meant to be the artwork.
>
> Prints are great example of what I mean. The original is most certainly
> the first print pulled, and not the stone/plate, wood block, etc. As
> you point out, the value of a print decreases with the number printed.
>
>
> > In the case of
> > printing, the number of copies does make a difference to the value of
> > each individual copy, but in printing an edition, you strive to pull
> > identical prints. They aren't worth less because they are copies.
>
> Well, they are, really. If size of the edition is a very big factor in
> the value, and that, in turn, is determined by the customer. For example,
> I might feel that a print in an edition of 100 is a bargain at $500, but
> that the same print in an edition of 1000 is overpriced at $200.
Gee, I guess I should toss my entire collection of Knustler and
similar Artist then. I couldn't afford the $2000 dollars that my
oldest one's orginial went for when new, now the print is worth more
than that. Some of the Civil War prints are quickly closing in on the
paintings value. The Lions of Gettysburg is an example, of this
Chamberlains Charge is over $3000 last time I checked unframed.
It is the the execution of a piece that matters, not the method of
production as long as it is limited.....Plus historically potters and
related professions were considered craftsman and artistians not
artist, and I am happy with any of those labels. I know in my heart
what I am.
> > So, the fact that an art object is a copy by an artist of their own
> > original piece, should not decrease it's value.
>
> Well, it would for me.
>
Kirk
Lauren BAll on wed 13 nov 96
Larry Phillips wrote:
> You have again helpd my point. If an object has beauty, but is mass
> produced, it is worth less than the original, in my opinion. Making
> a slip-cast copy is just another point on the mass-production curve,
> quite far to the other end, of course.
Consider though that not everyone can afford The Mona Lisa, but most can
afford a print. Perhaps that is the advantage of mass produced ceramic
ware's. Even if they are mass produced, if the copy is true to the
orriginal then many can share the beauty of the orriginal, at a more
affordable price.
Eleanora Eden on thu 14 nov 96
Hi All,
I'd like to enlarge on my impatient statement. As somebody who takes
pride in throwing and also in mold-making, and as I have taken alot of
rude heat in my time about casting I tend to get testy.
It is easy to see the intrinsic value in wheel throwing. It is a
hard-earned motor skill and the very doing of it brings satisfaction
whatever the result. Anybody who throws is aware of this.
The intrinsic value of casting is in my estimation harder to come by.
Because the value of a casting is a direct result of the value of the
designing of the original and the skill in mold-making. You got a lousy
idea you got a stupid mold you got a dumb result.....anybody who's
wandered thru Marie's Ceramics Shack, and I get my supplies at such
rendez-vouses, sees this obvious equation ad-nauseum.
I think us folks who make pots from molds are doing potters a
much-needed honor, demonstrating despite the general disfavor that it is
the spirit and dedication of the artist, not the chosen tool, that
defines excellence.
Eleanora
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@maple.sover.net
[the address fga@world.std.com is temporary. My mailbox at
eden@maple.sover.net still works -- do not change address books]
Larry Phillips on fri 15 nov 96
In article <199611122351.SAA22820@cpcug.org>,
Kirk Morrison writes:
>
> Gee, I guess I should toss my entire collection of Knustler and
> similar Artist then. I couldn't afford the $2000 dollars that my
> oldest one's orginial went for when new, now the print is worth more
> than that.
Not at all. If you like the Knustlers and other prints, and feel
that they are worth what you paid for them, then there is no
reason at all for you to get rid of them.
> Some of the Civil War prints are quickly closing in on the
> paintings value. The Lions of Gettysburg is an example, of this
> Chamberlains Charge is over $3000 last time I checked unframed.
The 'value' you are speaking of is the market value, and is not what I
mean when I speak of value. A piece of art has value to me, and that
value has nothing to do with the market value, or the value to you.
Personally, I do like, and buy, some prints, but I value them less
than an original painting, and there is no way I'd classify a large
run as anything but mass-production, and not as 'art'.
> It is the the execution of a piece that matters, not the method of
> production as long as it is limited.....Plus historically potters and
> related professions were considered craftsman and artistians not
> artist, and I am happy with any of those labels. I know in my heart
> what I am.
The 'execution' of a piece is, indeed, part of what matters. Van Gogh's
'Crows in a Corn Field', for example, loses virtually all of its
character; all of its distinctive look due to its execution, when seen
as a print, yet the original is profoundly and stunningly powerful and
beautiful (in my opinion).
This does not mean that I would not buy a print of it, especially if
I consider the likelihood of ever being able to afford the original,
but it does not change my opinion that not only is the print worth less,
but deservedly so, in virtually any terms, and using any criteria.
Larry Phillips on fri 15 nov 96
In article <3289389A.70BA@hevanet.com>,
Lauren BAll writes:
>
> Consider though that not everyone can afford The Mona Lisa, but most can
> afford a print. Perhaps that is the advantage of mass produced ceramic
> ware's. Even if they are mass produced, if the copy is true to the
> orriginal then many can share the beauty of the orriginal, at a more
> affordable price.
Absolutely. However, I was making no judgemnent on whether or not
'copies' have a place in the market, but only that they are not worth,
to me, as much as the original.
Heck, I have a complete set of mass-produced dinnerware that is very
appealing, but I didn't (and wouldn't) pay as much fopr it as I would
a hand-made set of the same design.
Kirk Morrison on fri 15 nov 96
On 15 Nov 96 at 8:08, Larry Phillips wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> In article <199611122351.SAA22820@cpcug.org>,
> Kirk Morrison writes:
> >
> > Gee, I guess I should toss my entire collection of Knustler and
> > similar Artist then. I couldn't afford the $2000 dollars that my
> > oldest one's orginial went for when new, now the print is worth more
> > than that.
>
> Not at all. If you like the Knustlers and other prints, and feel
> that they are worth what you paid for them, then there is no
> reason at all for you to get rid of them.
>
> > Some of the Civil War prints are quickly closing in on the
> > paintings value. The Lions of Gettysburg is an example, of this
> > Chamberlains Charge is over $3000 last time I checked unframed.
>
> The 'value' you are speaking of is the market value, and is not what I
> mean when I speak of value. A piece of art has value to me, and that
> value has nothing to do with the market value, or the value to you.
I realize that Market value is not the same as it value as art, but the
value of a piece of art can be debated if you can't give it away so to
speak. The price of the Chamberlain painting at over 30,000 and the
print at 3,000 is an indication of what people value feel something is
worth. Then again I am a craftsman and not an artist, I produce
somepieces I feel are lovely, but I wouldn't not call any teapot, or
cup or vase or mug art. I have been doing horning and leather work
for the last 25+ years, but I don't consider most of that art either.
I consider myself in Clay or other things I work in to be an artisian.
I am happy with any label you wish to stick on me or yourself, but my
attitude is different from your alls. I guess I am a square peg in this
ng or maybe I am a round peg?
Crows in a Cornfield" is murdered by most of the attempts to copy it.
Then he never intended for it to be copied. Now I have made a mold of
a few of my pieces. I have a "Concord Mug" and couple of other things
I mass produce if you call making 20 of them in a month mass
production, and when the mold wears I make a new one. I don't do
stautues though, never have never will, it isn't my cup of tea. I
don't see a conflict. Vincent in Flames or Vincent in Hell and Starry
Starry Night both suffer also in the making of a print. A mug doesn't
nor does a W.C. or a Wash Basin. Gee I make a budvase a lot, never
thought of it as a piece of art.
Y'all have a good weekend now ya hear?
Kirk
Kenneth D. Westfall on fri 22 nov 96
At 05:32 PM 11/10/96 +0000, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>In article ,
> Talbott writes:
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>> or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>> cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
>Yes, I do.
>
>Granted, if a piece is identical in every respect to the 'original',
>and _IF_ you are buying the piece for its functionality, then I would
>think that they are worth equal amounts. However, I buy even functional
>pieces for their artistic merit, and I see no artistic merit in the
>copying of a good piece. In fact, I feel that the copies decrease the
>value of the original.
>
>For those that would disagree, let me ask you if you would pay as much
>for a photocopy of a charcoal sketch as you would the original?
>If not, why wouldn't you apply the samne criteria to another art form.
>
I saw this posting and couldn't resist speaking to it. The writer use a
example of a photocopy of a charcoal sketch being the same as a ram pressed
or slip cast to compare with wheel thrown. I would like to point out that
weather or not clay it pressed or poured it is still clay and will still be
glazed by hand, wiped by hand, load into the kiln by hand, and fired. At
any point that piece can take on a life of its own. A photo copy is not made
on good drawing paper, uses no charcoal, and has very little hands on
contact and is doutful it will gain any artistic value if something goes
wrong during is processing.
Kenneth
DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MUDPIES--K & T
Talbott on mon 25 nov 96
Kenneth--
If YOU were the customer that was considering whether or not to buy a
piece of pottery that you really liked, knowing what you know, for say
$500-$600 or more, would you ask the artist if this piece were hand thrown
or slip cast?...... I would and I have.... How do you think the artist's
answer would influence the customer's decision as to buy or not to
buy?........ Marshall
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Opionion poll--do you feel that the pieces of pottery that are hand-built
>> or thrown are worth more money than the pieces of pottery that are slip
>> cast or ram pressed--all other things being equal??? Marshall
>
>Yes, I do.
>
>Granted, if a piece is identical in every respect to the 'original',
>and _IF_ you are buying the piece for its functionality, then I would
>think that they are worth equal amounts. However, I buy even functional
>pieces for their artistic merit, and I see no artistic merit in the
>copying of a good piece. In fact, I feel that the copies decrease the
>value of the original.
>
>For those that would disagree, let me ask you if you would pay as much
>for a photocopy of a charcoal sketch as you would the original?
>If not, why wouldn't you apply the samne criteria to another art form.
>
I saw this posting and couldn't resist speaking to it. The writer use a
example of a photocopy of a charcoal sketch being the same as a ram pressed
or slip cast to compare with wheel thrown. I would like to point out that
weather or not clay it pressed or poured it is still clay and will still be
glazed by hand, wiped by hand, load into the kiln by hand, and fired. At
any point that piece can take on a life of its own. A photo copy is not made
on good drawing paper, uses no charcoal, and has very little hands on
contact and is doutful it will gain any artistic value if something goes
wrong during is processing.
Kenneth
DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MUDPIES--K & T
Marshall Talbott
Pottery By Celia
Route 114
P.O. Box 4116
Naples, Maine 04055-4116
(207)693-6100 voice and fax
clupus@ime.net
Kenneth D. Westfall on tue 26 nov 96
At 01:37 PM 11/25/96 +0000, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Kenneth--
>
> If YOU were the customer that was considering whether or not to buy a
>piece of pottery that you really liked, knowing what you know, for say
>$500-$600 or more, would you ask the artist if this piece were hand thrown
>or slip cast?...... I would and I have.... How do you think the artist's
>answer would influence the customer's decision as to buy or not to
>buy?........ Marshall
>
>
Marshall
With at lease 50 % of my customers I have had to explain the difference
between slip casting and wheel thrown pottery. They don't know, and if you
explain about it, without putting down one for the other, they are not
concerned. I had customers who would not buy pots when they hear I use an
electric wheel and not a kick wheel. There are plenty of customers out
there that know fine bone china is not the same as porcelain and they still
buy the china. You have to be up front with your customers and cut off any
misunderstanding. I have found that most people are looking for original
designed work that is made by you personally and not at a foreign factory.
I only personal gripe is when people try to sell as something that
they're not. Nothing burns me faster than to here "Yes I make everything
myself", but they do 50 or 60 show a year.
Kenneth
DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MUDPIES--K & T
Kirk Morrison on tue 26 nov 96
On 25 Nov 96 at 8:37, Talbott wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Kenneth--
>
> If YOU were the customer that was considering whether or not to buy a
> piece of pottery that you really liked, knowing what you know, for say
> $500-$600 or more, would you ask the artist if this piece were hand thrown
> or slip cast?...... I would and I have.... How do you think the artist's
> answer would influence the customer's decision as to buy or not to
> buy?........ Marshall
>
>
Nope just if it was a limited addition and how limited I have seen
pieces "mass produced" by using guides of various sorts also. It
doesn't matter at all. Heck I paint and I and I can run off 50
paintings also that are identical by using my sketches, my eye and my
hand control that just as much as a jig, or a mold. Heck they have very
little to do with the process anyway, you can only do so much with
shapes, what is the art if there is an art is the FINISH not the Shape.
This was totally confirm to me at a cermanic gallery show last weekend.
BTW only 2 pieces showed ANY orginiallity and these were some big names
in the D.C. area.
Kirk
I'd prefer to be called an honest craftsman, if you please, right now
but Art is the process of creation, you all are confusing the means
with the end. The form is only part of the means, the finish is part, I
can take and finish 50 Vases cast from the same mold 50 different ways,
if I make ginger jar style vases in one size why waste the time
throwing them when the genius is in the finish.
Kirk
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