Jeremy/Bonnie Hellman on mon 29 apr 96
Howdy Clayarters--
I am planning to order a new electric kiln aout 7 cu ft with a wall mounted
controller and probably the greatest insulation readily available. The
basement location is such that it would be desirable to be able to move the
kiln back and forth several feet between storage under the stairs and
firing out in the open.
I decided that I wanted the Skutt 1027 with 3" walls except that when I
looked at the Paragon equivalent, they also sell a stand with wheels which
would make life easier.
My question is for anyone who has a Paragon kiln--what has your experience been?
My second question is for anyone who put wheels on a Skutt kiln--how did
you do it? Did you build/weld a stand with wheels?
The third question is for anyone who researched a 7 cu ft cone 10 electric
kiln in the last year. What advice do you have for me?
TIA. Bonnie
PS The kiln location will be in rural southwest Colorado. Cost is a factor
but this is a long term purchase so I don't want to be penny wise pound
foolish. I'm hoping to spend a total of no more than $2,000 including kiln,
controller, basic furniture, delivery and sales tax (if applicable).
Feel free to email the group or me privately.
pe_dresel@ccmail.pnl.gov on tue 30 apr 96
Jeremy/Bonnie Hellman writes:
>I am planning to order a new electric kiln aout 7 cu ft with a wall
>mounted
>controller and probably the greatest insulation readily available.
>
>I decided that I wanted the Skutt 1027 with 3" walls except that when
>I looked at the Paragon equivalent, they also sell a stand with
>wheels which would make life easier.
Personally, I wouldn't buy the Scutt with 3" walls. First they didn't
bother retooling the jacket so what you get is a smaller interior
diameter and need non-standard shelves. Secondly they don't use 3"
brick on the top or bottom, and I think that just using the 3" sides
doesn't accomplish much. The Cone Art/Bailey kilns are probably the
best insulated and constructed around, but are pricey. I bought a
Crucible kiln from Seattle Pottery Supply which has 3" brick all
around. There is some question whether the extra insulation makes a
significant difference in energy costs but I wanted to at least try
and do my bit. Besides I like to streach out that wonderful tension
of waiting for the kiln to cool as long as possible :-()
I don't see any reason you couldn't put any kiln on the Paragon stand.
If money is tight you might think about deferring the controller
purchase for a while and just get the kiln. Get a vent!
-- Evan Dresel
At war with my sinuses in W. Richland WA
medelman@facstaff.wisc.edu on tue 30 apr 96
Bonnie: I have no experience with the new Paragon kilns in the size you
are considering. But I did buy a Paragon test kiln last May. It is
well-built, with 3" brick, but it does have a problem that makes me hope you
can have a look at the model you would buy. The hinge design is awkward,
cumbersome.
You'd go mad if the larger lid was hinged with the same design. I did
suggest to the dealer that she let Paragon know my opinion.
Bacia Edelman
Lisa Skeen on wed 1 may 96
In a message dated 96-04-30 22:53:16 EDT, you write:
> Besides I like to streach out that wonderful tension
>of waiting for the kiln to cool as long as possible :-()
Is this not the most frustrating thing on the planet? I have been known to
check the kiln multiple times an hour....(is it done yet?)
Opening the kiln is like Christmas....or better.
L
Shelly Christensen on sat 4 may 96
-- [ From: Shelly Christensen * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Hi Bonnie!
I have two Paragon Kilns. The oldest one is about 15 years old. The only
thing that has gone wron is that the coils needed to be replaced. It keeps
on ticking! My newest one is about three years old. It runs like a dream
and is a touch n Fire (tnf). We just recently replaced the bottom coil on
this kiln. I fire this kiln in our peak season about every other day. It
fires perfect every time. I heartily recommend the touch n fire!!! It is
so easy to program and gives great results from cone 018 to cone 10!!! I
really enjoy the ramp and hold feature! We have some friends that purchased
a skutt with electronic controls and they have had problems with theirs.
Good luck to you in you purchase. We purchased ours through Axners(nice
plug), as this was the lowest price we found at the time. Axners was great
to work with!!
Any more questions?
email me:
Shelly Christensen
claywork@magiclink.com
Burtt on fri 16 apr 99
My local supplier carries Paragon kilns. I would be interested in any
pros or cons on Paragon as I am about to buy a new electric kiln.
Thanks.
Steve Burtt
On the Mississippi Gulf Coast
JULIE BOUCHE on wed 26 may 99
Dear Claymates:
You guys are terrific! When I asked recently for some input on which
kiln to buy, you all really came through. It was very exciting to check
my e-mail every day and read everyone's suggestions. Thank you, Linda,
Nils, Michelle, Deborah, Penny, B'racha (what a beautiful name!),
Cheryl, Karen, Carrie, Chuck, Arnold, Bonnie, and Amy! (If I missed
anybody, I'm sorry.) I will be responding to everyone individually --
some of you raised very interesting questions that I'd like to follow
up on off-list. I am currently getting price quotes on models from
Skutt, L&L, and Paragon, from both the local dealer (Georgies here in
Portland) and Bennetts. Will also be talking with Axners. Your input
helped me decide what size to get (at least 7 cubic feet), and that I
definitely want a wall-mounted controller and a vent system.
I was bragging to a friend of mine the other day about how wonderful
this list is, how congenial, the amazing breadth and depth of the
talent and knowledge, how generously people shared information (I've
met a couple of not-on-the-list potters who would rather have an arm
cut off than reveal a glaze recipe), etc., etc. He said he'd been on
such a list (art-related but not clay), started out fine, then one guy
took on three or four aliases, sent all kinds of wild posts attacking
other list members, and eventually succeeded in destroying the list (I
guess people dropped off of it in droves). Part of the problem, I
believe, was that the list did not have a moderator. So, to our
moderator I say: bless you and thank you for being there. The other
difference, IMHO, is that there seems to be an inordinately high
percentage of goodness and decency in the people on this list. Is it
because they are ceramic/clay artists (or whatever we call ourselves)?
Or did we all just get incredibly lucky? I don't know, and I really
don't care, as long as it never changes.
Thank you all, again, and blessings on you.
===
Julie Ann Bouche'
Salem, Oregon
saltcreekart@yahoo.com
To err is human, to forgive, canine . . .
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Wendy Neilson on thu 27 may 99
Hi Julie! You didn't mention Crucible from Seattle Pottery in your search
for your perfect kiln. They build to your specifications, give excellent
help and support with the 1-800 number. They are in nearby Seattle.. So far
I don't have a single complaint except that I should have a separate wall
mounted controller and multi probes. Next I need (want) a small kiln and
I'll do the same route again. Good luck!!
Wendy
Victoria, B.C.
potsnpaints@home.com
the Gallaghers on thu 27 may 99
I want to second Julie's (e)motion on this subject. I have been having the
same wonderful advice coming through and support for the direction I am
headed. I hope I can return the favors someday when I have had a bit more
experiance and the knowledge to pass along. It's been great, let's keep it
going.
Michelle
In Oregon
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Dear Claymates:
You guys are terrific!
So, to our moderator I say: bless you and thank you for being there. The
other difference, IMHO, is that there seems to be an inordinately high
percentage of goodness and decency in the people on this list. Is it
because they are ceramic/clay artists (or whatever we call ourselves)?
Or did we all just get incredibly lucky? I don't know, and I really
don't care, as long as it never changes.
Thank you all, again, and blessings on you.
===
Julie Ann Bouche'
Salem, Oregon
saltcreekart@yahoo.com
To err is human, to forgive, canine . . .
JULIE BOUCHE on thu 17 jun 99
Dear Claymates:
After much deliberation, the securing of price quotes,
and lying in bed at night wondering if I really could
afford it, I have DONE THE DEED and ordered my kiln!
I opted for a Skutt 1018 (manual) with Envirovent. I
debated about getting the wall-mounted computer
controller, which I really, really wanted, instead of
the Envirovent (couldn't afford both), but ultimately
concluded that my health was more important than the
convenience of the controller. I can always add the
controller later -- though with my current debt load,
it may be a long, long time until "later" gets here.
Oh well, it's only money!
The new studio will be ready by July 1 and I have
asked Skutt to hold off shipoing until after that
date, which they were happy to do. I bought, by the
way, through Bennett's in Florida. Joan is a dream to
work with -- knows her stuff and was very patient as I
asked her to give me quotes with all sorts of various
options. Bennett's definitely had the best price. I
checked with Oregon Clay (here in Salem) and Georgies
Clay (in Portland) in hopes that I could support a
local business but both were about $150 higher than
Bennett's.
So, the kiln comes just after the 1st of July and will
have to sit uncrated and unused for six weeks until
the new house is done (next door to the new studio)
and I can more easily be "on-site" to supervise
firing. Right now, I'm over 20 miles away -- not
conducive to supervised firings. And I definitely
want to supervise my firings -- especially the first
many times until the kiln and I get to know one
another. That six weeks will probably be the longest
of my life!
My thanks again to all my Clayart friends who sent me
suggestions and advice -- it was invaluable in helping
to make, what was for me, a big decision. I'm dazzled
by those of you building huge wood and gas kilns --
makes my puny little 4.6 cubic foot electric seem like
a toy. But, it's where I am on the path right now,
and that's just fine with me.
Blessings to you all,
jb
===
Julie Ann Bouche'
Salem, Oregon
saltcreekart@yahoo.com
Work as if you don't need the money,
Love as if you've never been hurt,
Dance as if no one is watching . . .
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Mildred Herot on tue 1 mar 05
The time has come for me to buy a new kiln and my choice has =
narrowed down to an L&L or a Michaelangelo. I like the L&L's and have =
had two of them (one used) and now have a Skutt (also purchased used) =
which I really don't like too much. MY problem with the L&L is that one =
seems too small and one seems too large and I know absolutely nothing =
about the Michaelangelo. If anyone has some input regarding this kiln, =
I would be most appreciative......Mildred Herot
Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician on tue 8 jul 08
To All
I would like to ask advice from clayart members on purchasing a gas kiln o=
n the West Coast. I work at Lake Tahoe Community College and we need to pur=
chase a new kiln for our expanding art program. I have spent many hours in =
contact with suppliers and kiln company only to still be undecided on what =
purchase to make. We have three 7- CF electric Cress kilns, 1-16 CF front =
loading electric programable kiln, 1-16 CF electric oval kiln and 1 Olson k=
iln that was donated and we were able to convert it from an updraft to a do=
wn draft with forced air burners (long story don't ask). We are looking at =
a 24 cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and was wondering if anyon=
e has any good or bad comments on there product or any other. Money does no=
t come around very often so we want to make sure we spend it well. We have =
looked at Geil Kilns, would love to have one but it does not fit in our bud=
get, we tried to contact Fred Olson but he is in Europe until the end of A=
ugust. I would love to build a kiln or offer a kiln building workshop but m=
y boss wants it by September and we are on summer break. Any suggestions or=
comments are welcome. Oh yeah, we have about 1600.00 to spend.
Sincerely
Francis Rider
Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician on wed 9 jul 08
I typed in the wrong figure on my last post we have 16000.00 to spend. Sorr=
y for the error.
Thanks
Francis Rider
________________________________________
From: Clayart [CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of William & Susan Schra=
n User [wschran@COX.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 4:00 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: kiln purchase
On 7/9/08 1:36 AM, "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
wrote:
> We are looking at a 24 cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and wa=
s
> wondering if anyone has any good or bad comments on there product or any
> other. Money does not come around very often so we want to make sure we s=
pend
> it well. We have looked at Geil Kilns, would love to have one but it does=
not
> fit in our budget, we tried to contact Fred Olson but he is in Europe unt=
il
> the end of August. I would love to build a kiln or offer a kiln building
> workshop but my boss wants it by September and we are on summer break. An=
y
> suggestions or comments are welcome. Oh yeah, we have about 1600.00 to
You won't be getting anywhere near buying a commercially manufactured gas
fired 24 cu. Ft. kiln for $1600.
You're probably going to be hard pressed to build a kiln along with the gas
train for that amount.
When I started the idea of having a gas fired kiln at the community college
where I teach, I did the research, found out costs, then started a "ceramic
studio fund" in our educational foundation. Folks could make tax deductible
contributions and our money would grow slightly. After 6 years of begging
for donations, telling students if they wanted the kiln to make
contributions, holding holiday pottery sales and going after as many grants
as I could find, we finally were able to purchase our Geil 24DLB.
Good Luck, Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Paul Herman on wed 9 jul 08
Hello Francis,
My advice is to embrace the future, and forget about gas firing. It is
soooo twentieth century, and has a shaky future to boot.
Pretty soon gas will just be very expensive, and we will need natural
gas for making more important things, like fertilizer. Did you know
nitrogen fertilizer is made from natural gas? Also helium. Where will
we get helium for our party balloons?
I note you are writing from South Lake Tahoe, about eighty miles from
where I live in Long Valley. Here in western North America, we are
experiencing periodic catastrophic wildfires, such as the "Angora
Fire" that visited your neighborhood last summer. It burned several
hundred houses. Big Sur and Berry Creek are burning as I type, and
fogging the skies here, hundreds of miles away. For me it's not that
much of a stretch to think hey, too much fire in the working class
neighborhoods, and gas/propane is so dear, why can't we put the two
ideas together?
I think it may be time to consider a wood fired kiln there in South
Lake Tahoe, don't you? Too many dead and dying conifers around? I will
testify to the ability of young people to cut and carry logs in
oppressive weather. I did it myself, and have seen it happen around
here in the last few months.
You work for a college. Aren't colleges supposed to prepare the young
people of today for the challenges of tomorrow? A difficult reality is
coming to pass regarding energy use. Have you considered wood fired
ceramics?
And as an addendum, I think electric firing has a future of sorts, but
gas, in the rapidly approaching future it's toast.
Best wishes, and working away on my fire break, burn baby burn,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
>
> I would like to ask advice from clayart members on purchasing a gas
> kiln on the West Coast. I work at Lake Tahoe Community College and
> we need to purchase a new kiln for our expanding art program. I have
> spent many hours in contact with suppliers and kiln company only to
> still be undecided on what purchase to make. We have three 7- CF
> electric Cress kilns, 1-16 CF front loading electric programable
> kiln, 1-16 CF electric oval kiln and 1 Olson kiln that was donated
> and we were able to convert it from an updraft to a down draft with
> forced air burners (long story don't ask). We are looking at a 24
> cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and was wondering if
> anyone has any good or bad comments on there product or any other.
> Money does not come around very often so we want to make sure we
> spend it well. We have looked at Geil Kilns, would love to have one
> but it does not fit in our budget, we tried to contact Fred Olson
> but he is in Europe until the end of August. I
> would love to build a kiln or offer a kiln building workshop but my
> boss wants it by September and we are on summer break. Any
> suggestions or comments are welcome. Oh yeah, we have about 1600.00
> to spend.
>
> Sincerely
> Francis Rider
William & Susan Schran User on wed 9 jul 08
On 7/9/08 1:36 AM, "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
wrote:
> We are looking at a 24 cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and was
> wondering if anyone has any good or bad comments on there product or any
> other. Money does not come around very often so we want to make sure we spend
> it well. We have looked at Geil Kilns, would love to have one but it does not
> fit in our budget, we tried to contact Fred Olson but he is in Europe until
> the end of August. I would love to build a kiln or offer a kiln building
> workshop but my boss wants it by September and we are on summer break. Any
> suggestions or comments are welcome. Oh yeah, we have about 1600.00 to
You won't be getting anywhere near buying a commercially manufactured gas
fired 24 cu. Ft. kiln for $1600.
You're probably going to be hard pressed to build a kiln along with the gas
train for that amount.
When I started the idea of having a gas fired kiln at the community college
where I teach, I did the research, found out costs, then started a "ceramic
studio fund" in our educational foundation. Folks could make tax deductible
contributions and our money would grow slightly. After 6 years of begging
for donations, telling students if they wanted the kiln to make
contributions, holding holiday pottery sales and going after as many grants
as I could find, we finally were able to purchase our Geil 24DLB.
Good Luck, Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Tony Ferguson on wed 9 jul 08
Francis,
$1600 is (choke) not enough to even build your own kiln let alone by a kit kiln let a lone materials. I would educate your boss as to the real costs involved in a quality kiln. Pay now or pay later. The costs of a good kiln will only go up, but its function pretty much remains the same.
Tony
"Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician" wrote: To All
I would like to ask advice from clayart members on purchasing a gas kiln on the West Coast. I work at Lake Tahoe Community College and we need to purchase a new kiln for our expanding art program. I have spent many hours in contact with suppliers and kiln company only to still be undecided on what purchase to make. We have three 7- CF electric Cress kilns, 1-16 CF front loading electric programable kiln, 1-16 CF electric oval kiln and 1 Olson kiln that was donated and we were able to convert it from an updraft to a down draft with forced air burners (long story don't ask). We are looking at a 24 cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and was wondering if anyone has any good or bad comments on there product or any other. Money does not come around very often so we want to make sure we spend it well. We have looked at Geil Kilns, would love to have one but it does not fit in our budget, we tried to contact Fred Olson but he is in Europe until the end of August. I
would love to build a kiln or offer a kiln building workshop but my boss wants it by September and we are on summer break. Any suggestions or comments are welcome. Oh yeah, we have about 1600.00 to spend.
Sincerely
Francis Rider
Tony Ferguson
315 N. Lake Ave. Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
...where the sky meets the lake...
Artist, Educator, Photographer, Film Maker, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Dannon Rhudy on thu 10 jul 08
> > We are looking at a 24 cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and
was
> > wondering if anyone has any good or bad comments on there product
......>>>>>
We had a number of West Coast kilns at the
grad school studios, along with others. The
West Coasts tended to be a little tricky regarding
reduction, but once you figured it out, they were
very reliable. The 24 cu. ft. that we had was really
easy to fire. Pretty even, etc. Had to fire slowly
in the beginning to keep it even; they heat up fast.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
Mimi Patrick on thu 10 jul 08
Francis - I fired a Westcoast updraft 36 (24 cu ft stacking) for many
years. Please don't forget to factor in the cost of propane/natural gas. I
am at about the same elevation as Tahoe here in Gold Hill - 6000 feet. So
if you go that route, be prepared for firings that will consume about 100
gallons of propane and the equivalent of natural gas for each firing.
Mimi Patrick
Argenta Earth & Fire Co.
Gold Hill, NV
Doric T. Jemison-Ball ll on thu 10 jul 08
"Oh yeah, we have about $1600.00 to spend."
The WEST COAST KILN model you referenced has a list price of $6675. So
you're either about $5000 short, or you've got a discount we'd all like to
have.
What gives? This is out of your budget, just like the GEIL
Doric T.Jemison-Ball II
BBS-LA
14622 Ventura Blvd. #727
Sherman Oaks, CA 91403
707-884-5067 Voice
707-884-4449 FAX
818-606-6678 CELL
buffalo@bbs-la.com
http://www.bbs-la.com
"You can always cure the sausage that's too long"
Susan Gatherers
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:36 PM
Subject: kiln purchase
To All
I would like to ask advice from clayart members on purchasing a gas kiln on
the West Coast. I work at Lake Tahoe Community College and we need to
purchase a new kiln for our expanding art program. I have spent many hours
in contact with suppliers and kiln company only to still be undecided on
what purchase to make. We have three 7- CF electric Cress kilns, 1-16 CF
front loading electric programable kiln, 1-16 CF electric oval kiln and 1
Olson kiln that was donated and we were able to convert it from an updraft
to a down draft with forced air burners (long story don't ask). We are
looking at a 24 cubic foot updraft kiln by West Coast Kilns and was
wondering if anyone has any good or bad comments on there product or any
other. Money does not come around very often so we want to make sure we
spend it well. We have looked at Geil Kilns, would love to have one but it
does not fit in our budget, we tried to contact Fred Olson but he is in
Europe until the end of August. I would love to build a kiln or offer a
kiln building workshop but my boss wants it by September and we are on
summer break. Any suggestions or comments are welcome. Oh yeah, we have
about 1600.00 to spend.
Sincerely
Francis Rider
Hank Murrow on thu 10 jul 08
On Jul 9, 2008, at 8:17 PM, Rider,Francis - Art Studio Technician wrote:
> I typed in the wrong figure on my last post we have 16000.00 to
> spend. Sorry for the error.
Dear Francis;
Get a smaller Geil and fire more often. If you are not firing 40 or
more times a year, you are not firing enough. Feedback is critical to
learning, especially when you only have two to four years contact
with your students.
Good luck,
Hank in Eugene
Paul Herman on fri 11 jul 08
Hi Joe,
You are right about the helium, as it isn't 'made' from natural gas
but rather extracted and concentrated from natural gas wells. I should
have written "Helium is a by product of natural gas extraction." It
does come out of the same hole in the ground, so while not related
chemically, it is related by being found in the same neighborhood.
Helium is used for a lot of things that are more important than party
balloons, and I understand is rather difficult to locate, except in
gas wells.
Best wishes,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
On Jul 11, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Joseph Herbert wrote:
> Paul wrote: Did you know nitrogen fertilizer is made from natural
> gas? Also
> helium. Where will we get helium for our party balloons?
>
> Helium IS a natural gas, produced from wells. It is, however,
> unrelated to
> methane. Helium is an element, methane contains carbon and hydrogen.
>
> Joe
>
>
Joseph Herbert on fri 11 jul 08
Paul wrote: Did you know nitrogen fertilizer is made from natural gas? Also
helium. Where will we get helium for our party balloons?
Helium IS a natural gas, produced from wells. It is, however, unrelated to
methane. Helium is an element, methane contains carbon and hydrogen.
Joe
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.7/1543 - Release Date: 7/9/2008
6:32 PM
Larry Kruzan on fri 11 jul 08
Hi All,
100 gallons for a 24 CF kiln? Is this really accurate? What a fuel hog! My
100 cf kiln uses about 30 gallons for a 05 bisque and 70 gallons for a cone
10, heavy reduction firing. At $2.89 a gallon you would buy the kiln again
every six months in fuel costs- ouch!
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Mimi Patrick
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 7:41 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] kiln purchase
Francis - I fired a Westcoast updraft 36 (24 cu ft stacking) for many
years. Please don't forget to factor in the cost of propane/natural gas. I
am at about the same elevation as Tahoe here in Gold Hill - 6000 feet. So
if you go that route, be prepared for firings that will consume about 100
gallons of propane and the equivalent of natural gas for each firing.
Mimi Patrick
Argenta Earth & Fire Co.
Gold Hill, NV
Lili Krakowski on fri 10 oct 08
Arnold Howard has been a pal, a friend, a giver of great and
generous advice. He is a support, a handholder, and,sometimes, a
raconteur. A true Clay Buddy to us all.
I have never met him, am not related, have no commercial interest
either in him or Paragon, any of their suppliers, distributors
etc.
So I feel free to wonder: without in any way putting down other
kilns or their makers, should not everyone on this list
interested in electric kilns think PARAGON?
Lili Krakowski
Be of good courage
| |
|
