Jonathan Kaplan on mon 9 sep 96

I have been getting some inquiries regarding my posts on kiln
shelves, so I'll post my comments to the list.

Corederite shelves have been around for a long long time. The state of the
art in cordertite compostions are those that are in combination with
alumina, mullite, and others. The are extrememly strong, extremely durable,
and are not only less expensive than their silicon carbide counterparts,
but they weigh less.

I am sure many of you are familiar with Thorley products. They are a
standard corderite for most electric kilns to about cone 6 or so. I would't
advise them higher.

Corederite shelves were developed for fast fire applications in industry
with the introduction of RCF (refractory ceramic fiber). Silicon carbide
was tempermental and not advisable for such applications.

With the newer advances in silicon carbide technology, nitride bonded
materials etc., thinnner cross sections of SiC can be used. Hot load
deformation is non existant, your back is saved, but the cost is high.

Corderite compostions have the strength and durabilty to last many many
years. I have used ALcorit compositions from Spinx (now Hewitt) since the
early 1980's and they are still in primo shape.I am expecting to put an
order with Acme Marls for the same size shelf in the Remcor composition,
14" x 28" x 1" Shelf cost is around $22.00 less crating and CIF charges
from England. The shelf weighs about 18 pounds.

I hope this answers your questions. Use them. You'll be happy you did!!

Jonathan


Jonathan Kaplan
http://www.craftweb.com/org/jkaplan/cdg.shtml


(aka "Scooter)
jonathan@csn.net
Ceramic Design Group Ltd./Production Services Voice:
970-879-9139 POB 775112
FAXmodem: same
Steamboat Springs, Colorado 80477, USA CALL before faxing



"Arrive on time, tell the truth, be a good listener, and don't
be too attatched to the results. Above all, maintain a sense of
humor!"

Frank Tucker on tue 10 sep 96

I wanted to add my two cents worth about Acme Marls And Diamond kiln shelves
from England.Most Canadian suppliers have carried them for well over 20
years!Over the years we have sent thousands of these shelves to potters all
over Canada and the U.S. for use at high temperature in both oxidation and
reduction with great success.I have friends that have used them for salt and
they have lasted for years although I am a little nervous about recommending
that.More recently a few suppliers in the U.S. have started to carry them so
there is no need to go through the hassle of importing them yourself from
England.
Boy,it sure is hard not to sound too commercial.

Frank Tucker,
Tucker's Pottery Supplies Inc.
Cone Art kilns Inc.

Rick Sherman on tue 10 sep 96

Jonathan Kaplan suggested using corederite shelves for firing in an
electric kiln. Good idea. They are not expensive and will last for
years with regular use. I use inch-thick shelves, 12X24 for gas
firing, reduction and oxidation, to ^11. They should be flipped over
for each firing to keep them flat. One potter tells me his shelves
last two years or more with approx. 40 bisque and 50 glaze firings per
year. Cost in CA is $30-$35 for 12X24. RS

Eleanora Eden on sat 14 dec 96

hi Marshall and all,

As I said I have not been into this market for many moons and so anybody
interested would have to contact Norton Co. and find out who is in charge
of the over-runs. It stands to reason that if they still make silicon
carbide shelves they will still need somebody to do that.

Good luck with it Marshall, let us all know how it goes.

Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@maple.sover.net

[the address fga@world.std.com is temporary. My mailbox at
eden@maple.sover.net still works -- do not change address books]

Phillips Kathleen on fri 14 mar 97

I am a glass artist and, as such, my information may not be valuable. I have
two electric kilns for fusing and slumping (Jen-Ken, out of Florida). As
kiln wash sometimes leaves a residue on the base of the pieces and must be
sandblasted off (not a problem, just another step which is time lost) I, and
many other glass artists, use "shelf paper". This is available from stained
glass suppliers. You can cut it to fit your shelf with scissors and it is
reusable. It's called "fiber paper" and is available in 1/8" and 1/32"
thicknesses in sheets 24" x 24". It is also available in rolls. I DO NOT
KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN CERAMICS ARE FIRED ON IT! All my studio equipment
is in storage at the present time due to a move, so I cannot test it.

Be aware that most wholesale glass suppliers require proof that you are a
"legitimate" business in the form of yellow pages ad, letterhead, business
card, and resale license; so it may be practical to contact a retail store
for a "test" piece. Better yet, contact a glass studio and network with
them. I found your group through my ceramics instructor and appreciate all
the information which is shared, 'though most of it is incomprehensible to me.

Good luck!

Kathleen Phillips

Rosanne Cleveland-King on fri 12 dec 97

I am out of the loop catalog and magazine wise; would someone
post addresses or telephone numbers where I might find rather
lightweight kiln shelves for a ^10 firing.
Thank you,
Rosanne Cleveland-King
Mud Pies Pottery

Earl Brunner on sun 26 jul 98

In a message dated 7/26/98 1:22:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
trivkin@GL.UMBC.EDU writes:

<< 1. Is it worth it to try to sand or otherwise remove the kiln wash
from the bottom of the shelves that aren't warped? What would you use to
do this? One suggestion was a silicon carbide disk attached to a power
drill. Any other ideas?

2. When we buy new shelves, we are trying to get the biggest
possible surface without sacrificing the effects of reduction. Is it a
mistake to go from 19" to 21" diameter shelves? What is the ideal
thickness we want for our shelves? I have never bought kiln shelves
before, so I could use advice! What material do we want for our shelves
that is affordable, but durable and the least likely to warp? >>

Question number one, any machine operated abrasive will probably work, We use
a body shop grinder with a carbide disk on the ones in the city lab. In my
own studio I use kiln wash
60 parts Alumina Hydrate, 30 parts EPK and 10 parts Bentonite. I wash both
sides of the shelves and flip them every other firing. I do not get "kiln
turds" on my pots from the underside of the shelves.
Question number two, Without knowing the inside dimensions of the kiln, I
could not hazard a guess on practicality of the larger shelf size, if you
restrict the gas/flame flow and you may have more than just a reduction
problem. Possible effects of not having enough combustion space in the kiln,
you may not even reach temperature, you may get uneven firings. I have to
stagger the half shelves in my down draft in order to get even firings in my
down draft.

MR TREVOR J HERCEG on sun 26 jul 98

when i was in grad school we used a hand held body grinder with the
wire brush attachment. it seemed to work... this would probably be
better than a drill as it has more power....... good luck... i also
own the same type of kiln.. have had good results with it...

trevor herceg

rivkin toby on sun 26 jul 98

Hi ClayArt gurus!

I am firing an Olympic gas kiln 2327G, BTU 50,000 that is used by a
potters' collective. Our kiln shelves are half shelves that, placed
together, make a 19" whole round shelf in diameter.Some of the shelves are
one inch shelves, some 3/4. The one inch shelves are slightly warped.
We usually fire the kiln by alternating half shelves together and open,
with the bottom and top shelves closed. The jets feed up from the bottom
of the kiln.
The problem is that people have put kiln wash on the underside of the
shelves, so I always end up with small white flaked off kiln wash in some
of my glazed pieces. I have two issues:

1. Is it worth it to try to sand or otherwise remove the kiln wash
from the bottom of the shelves that aren't warped? What would you use to
do this? One suggestion was a silicon carbide disk attached to a power
drill. Any other ideas?

2. When we buy new shelves, we are trying to get the biggest
possible surface without sacrificing the effects of reduction. Is it a
mistake to go from 19" to 21" diameter shelves? What is the ideal
thickness we want for our shelves? I have never bought kiln shelves
before, so I could use advice! What material do we want for our shelves
that is affordable, but durable and the least likely to warp? Who is a
competitively priced reliable company for kiln shelves on the East Coast?

Thanks a lot to anybody who can help us make some intelligent decisions
before we pour money into kiln shelf salvage or replacement!

Toby

Kenneth D. Westfall on tue 28 jul 98

Toby
A 4.5 " angle grinder is the berries for grinding shelves and other
small jobs around the studio. You can get silicon carbide wheel for
grinding the worst glaze goofs and a wire brush for the wash if it not
fired on to hard. There small enough to handle in one hand and have the
power and rpm to get the job done. There is no comparison to a drill, a
drill mounted grinding wheel just won't cut the mustard. But buy a good
one, it's a life time good investment. ie milwaukee, metabo, porter cable.


Kenneth D. Westfall
Pine Hill Pottery
R.D. #2 Box 6AA
Harrisville, WV 26362
304-643-2583
pinehill@ruralnet.org

Kelley Webb Randel on thu 24 sep 98

Hey Clayart!
a couple of my friends are trying to build a woodfire kiln, and are looking
for a way to make the shelves. The cost of shelves is too prohibitive for
students and I thought someone would be able give me a recipe. I can't seem
to access the archives today. What's with that?
Thanks in advance,
Kelley Webb Randel
Raku gddss@aol.com

David Hendley on sat 26 sep 98

Hey Kelley!
I am known around Clayart as a a real 'do-it-your-selfer'.
I make my own kiln posts and even my own cones.
But, as for kiln shelves, especially for a high-fire wood kiln, I
say 'forget it'.

I made some 27 inch diameter half-circle shelves for
my electric kiln, for bisque firing only, and they cracked
after only a few firings.
Shelves for stoneware temperture would be under much
more stress.

I'm not saying you can't do it, but you are asking for a
difficult undertaking.

David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas


At 02:51 PM 9/24/98 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hey Clayart!
>a couple of my friends are trying to build a woodfire kiln, and are looking
>for a way to make the shelves. The cost of shelves is too prohibitive for
>students and I thought someone would be able give me a recipe. I can't seem
>to access the archives today. What's with that?
>Thanks in advance,
>Kelley Webb Randel
>Raku gddss@aol.com
>

Sarah Barnes on sun 27 sep 98

Hi! Larkin Bricks in Georgia sells used silcon carbide shelves for $30
each (24x24x1) Freight is not as expensive as you might think. We ordered
20 at 42lbs each it is going to cost only $130 in shipping to Maryland.
Their number is770-760-7090. I spoke with Jim Wunch, he was very nice and
patient. I am going to have the cut by a local contractor for $6.50 each
cut, giving me 40 shelves at $21 each, not to bad.

Sarah
Marland Institue

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Kelley Webb Randel wrote:

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hey Clayart!
> a couple of my friends are trying to build a woodfire kiln, and are looking
> for a way to make the shelves. The cost of shelves is too prohibitive for
> students and I thought someone would be able give me a recipe. I can't seem
> to access the archives today. What's with that?
> Thanks in advance,
> Kelley Webb Randel
> Raku gddss@aol.com
>

Caroline and Hedley Saunders on mon 12 apr 99

----Original Message-----
From: Donn Buchfinck


>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>and finally what makes a kiln shelf warp is the kiln wash on the shelf.


I'd like to hear more about this, why does the kiln wash make the shelves
warp?

Caroline
Who is on the point of buying shelves herself

Devon, England
delphin@eclipse.co.ukX
Remove the X from the address (there to keep spam spiders at bay)

Ray Aldridge on mon 16 aug 99

I just scored a like-new Olympic 2327H for $250 and a box of pots.
Unfortunately, there are no shelves. I'm hoping you good folk on the list
can tell me the best place to buy shelves for this honker. I fire to Cone
8, and if the shelves are available in the Southeast, all the better.
Olympic sells shelves for its kilns, no doubt, but I wonder if they're
suitable for heavy ware at that temp. And of course, I'm poor, so I'm
looking for cheap. Axner sells several grades of shelf, but they're not
cheap.

Thanks much,

Ray

Tonya Johnson on mon 27 sep 99

I am in KY and looking for a good deal on kiln shelves. I need 12x24"
shelves, preferably 3/4" thick. I would be interested in used silicon
carbide or new or used high alumina shelves. I am going to need about 20 or
more, so a bulk price should be possible. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks! tj

Mark Mondloch on tue 28 sep 99

Tonya,
I bought 12 x 24 x 1/2" nitride bonded silicon carbide shelves from New Castle
Refractories in 1998. I was very pleased with the shelves, cost, and service.
They will quote a price to make you whatever you want.
New Castle Refractories Company
915 Industrial Street
New Castle PA 16102
412-654-7711

Tonya Johnson wrote:

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I am in KY and looking for a good deal on kiln shelves. I need 12x24"
> shelves, preferably 3/4" thick. I would be interested in used silicon
> carbide or new or used high alumina shelves. I am going to need about 20 or
> more, so a bulk price should be possible. Any info would be appreciated.
> Thanks! tj

--
Mark & Sylvia Mondloch
Silver Creek Pottery & Forge
W6725 Hwy 144
Random Lake, WI 53075

silvercreek@execpc.com
http://www.execpc.com/silvercreek

Susan Goldstein on sat 23 oct 99

I am looking for rectangular shelves to fit an Olympic oval kiln. Does
anyone know where I can get them at a reasonable cost?

Susan

Tonya Johnson on sun 24 oct 99

I just got 12x24 inch shelves from Bailey. Mine were high alumina shelves
and were $26.50 each. They were the cheapest I could find. Tonya

Carolyn M Leung on sun 24 oct 99

I too have the olympic oval kiln and is about 8 years old now. I can't
really remember where I originally got them. So it was probably from
Olympic themselves (in Geogia) but Axner carries Olympic kiln supplies.
Also Ceramic Supply of NY & NJ will be able to help you if given the
exact measurements. As to price--don't know--haven't had to replace yet.


On Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:06:40 EDT Susan Goldstein
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>I am looking for rectangular shelves to fit an Olympic oval kiln.
>Does
>anyone know where I can get them at a reasonable cost?
>
>Susan

___________________________________________________________________
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Craig Haaser on tue 11 apr 00

I'm looking for something to keep my porcelain and B-mix pots from sticking
to the kiln shelves at cone 10.
I would like to continue turn my shelves over without the "wash"
flaking/falling off the shelves.
Any suggestions? What is the best method of application?
Has anyone used ITC on kiln shelves?
Thank you.
Craig Haaser
Ogden, UT.

Wade Blocker on wed 12 apr 00

Craig

----------
> From: Craig Haaser
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: kiln shelves
> Date: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 1:03 PM
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I'm looking for something to keep my porcelain and B-mix pots from
sticking
> to the kiln shelves at cone 10.
> I would like to continue turn my shelves over without the "wash"
> flaking/falling off the shelves.
> Any suggestions? What is the best method of application?
> Has anyone used ITC on kiln shelves?
> Thank you.
> Craig Haaser
> Ogden, UT.


Craig,

Use placing sand or silica sand on the shelves where you are going to
put your pots. The sand acts like roller bearings. After the firing just
brush it off. It is inexpensive and should be available at your ceramic
supply store. Mia in ABQ where it was Summer yesterday and Winter today!

Paul Lewing on wed 12 apr 00

Take a Mason jar, put screen in the brass ring that holds the lid. Put
silica in the jar and dust the shelves with it before you set them in
the kiln. Don't scoot your pots around on the dusted shelves or silica
will fall onto pots below. When the shelves come out of the kiln, brush
them off thoroughly and you'll be able to turn them over and do the same
thing on the other side next time.
Paul Lewing, Seattle

Craig Martell on wed 12 apr 00

Craig Hasser sez:

>I'm looking for something to keep my porcelain and B-mix pots from sticking
>to the kiln shelves at cone 10.

You can dust your shelves with alumina and brush it off, save it, and then
you don't have to worry about anything flaking when you flip the shelves
OR:.............

You can use a 75% alumina hydrate, 25% kaolin wash and clean it off when
you have to flip and wash the other side. I use this wash formula but I
never have to flip my shelves because I use Advancers and Crystars and they
don't warp. When I did have to clean the wash off of the hi aluminas and
mullite shelves, I used a cup head wire brush on an angle grinder. Quick,
but so damn dusty you wouldn't even believe it. I think you know what I'm
talkin' about here.

later, Craig Martell in Oregon

Bob Hanlin on wed 12 apr 00

Craig:
This will work. I dust my shelves with flint before I put them in the kiln.
I have been making pots for over 30 years and can still breath and all that
stuff (to settle the free silica in the air stuff). I do have my kiln
outside and do the dusting outside so I'm not trapped with the stuff in my
studio. When I want to turn the shelves over, I merely take a scrub brush
and brush the flint off, turn the shelf over and re apply the flint. If the
dust thing is a concern or if you're indoors, you might try mixing the flint
into a paste and applying then probably it would take a wire brush to remove
it.

Bob H.
bobhanlin@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: Craig Haaser
To:
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 2:03 PM
Subject: kiln shelves


> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I'm looking for something to keep my porcelain and B-mix pots from
sticking
> to the kiln shelves at cone 10.
> I would like to continue turn my shelves over without the "wash"
> flaking/falling off the shelves.
> Any suggestions? What is the best method of application?
> Has anyone used ITC on kiln shelves?
> Thank you.
> Craig Haaser
> Ogden, UT.
>

Stephen Mills on thu 13 apr 00

We sieve Calcined Alumina or very fine Molochite onto the shelves, wipe
the edges, and set the pots on that. Nary a problem, and we turn our
shelves over a lot.

Steve
Bath
UK


In message , Craig Haaser writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I'm looking for something to keep my porcelain and B-mix pots from sticking
>to the kiln shelves at cone 10.
>I would like to continue turn my shelves over without the "wash"
>flaking/falling off the shelves.
>Any suggestions? What is the best method of application?
>Has anyone used ITC on kiln shelves?
>Thank you.
>Craig Haaser
>Ogden, UT.
>

--
Steve Mills
Bath
UK
home e-mail: stevemills@mudslinger.demon.co.uk
work e-mail: stevemills@bathpotters.demon.co.uk
own website: http://www.mudslinger.demon.co.uk
BPS website: http://www.bathpotters.demon.co.uk
Tel: **44 (0)1225 311699
Fax: **44 (0)870 0526466

DeBorah Goletz on fri 14 apr 00

Craig - You could try brushing alumina hydrate (mixed in water) on the foot
of your pots to keep them from sticking to those unwashed shelves at cone
10. You could even mix the alumina into your wax resist (if you use it).
I'm not sure if this would leave an undesired effect on the foot of your
work - I imagine the trick would be to make sure to use a thin coat and,
remove it after the firing with a dish scrubby or fine sandpaper (in a well
vented area of course). Of course you could "wad" the pot feet (as for a
wood
firing).
Best,
DeBorah Goletz

Mike Obrien on fri 14 apr 00

Hey Craig, give us the info on "Advancers and Crystars" .
How hot do you fire? How many firings? Where did you get them and what did
they cost?

Mike O'Brien

Craig Martell on sun 16 apr 00

Mike sez:

>Hey Craig, give us the info on "Advancers and Crystars" .
>How hot do you fire? How many firings? Where did you get them and what did
>they cost?

Hi:

Crystars are recrystallized silicon carbide shelves. They are rated to
2900 F and are 5/16 of a inch thick. They weigh about 9 lbs. Advancers
are nitride bonded silicon carbs and are about the same weight and
thickness. Advancers are rated to 2600F. I fire to cone 10 and sometimes
hit cone 11 in hot spots. These shelves have been in use for about 10
years. I'm full time and fire a couple of times a month. They are still
perfectly flat and straight.

I purchased the shelves from Firebrick Supply in St Paul, Minn. Don't have
their 800 number on hand. Talk to Donna at extension 123. I paid about
100 bucks each for both types because I was in on some huge quantity
buys. Last I heard, Crystars were about $170 for a 12 by 24. Advancers are
around $120 I think.

These shelves have been discussed on Clayart many times. If you look in
the Archives, you should be able to get more info.

later, Craig Martell in Oregon

Bob Hamm on sun 16 apr 00

I coat my shelves by sifting alumina hydrate from a jar. It does not take
much. After I brush them off, I give them a quick rub with an old piece of
kiln shelf. The shelves are smoother then the day I bought them; some of
them over twenty years old. Despite the current disscusion regarding
aluminium/alumina, I think alumina is safer then silica. The alumina I am
using now is a flour. I would like to find some of the coarser material.
Can anyone suggest a source. The fine stuff , alumina or silica, is very
dusty. Whatever you use, wear a good mask.


Bob Hamm
Super Mud Works
Kelowna BC, Canada
Ph 250 765-8876
Email hamm@direct.ca



>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Take a Mason jar, put screen in the brass ring that holds the lid. Put
>silica in the jar and dust the shelves with it before you set them in
>the kiln. Don't scoot your pots around on the dusted shelves or silica
>will fall onto pots below. When the shelves come out of the kiln, brush
>them off thoroughly and you'll be able to turn them over and do the same
>thing on the other side next time.
>Paul Lewing, Seattle
>

Jonathan Kaplan on mon 17 apr 00

The high costs of both Advancers and Crystars may be out of the reach for
some potters.

Discussed many times before on this list (check the archives), Acme Marls
in Stoke on Trent UK, makes fabulous high temperature cordierite
refractories that are affordable and durable for cone 10 usage. They are
available from High Water Clays and Clay Art Center.

We have used these shelves, in their "Remcor" composition for many years in
our car kiln and electrics. They stay flat, are lightweight, and are
reasonable to purchase.

Best

Jonathan

Jonathan Kaplan, president
Ceramic Design Group
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
voice and fax 970 879-9139
jonathan@csn,net
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesigin

Plant Location:
1280 13th Street Unit 13
Steamboat Springs CO 80487
(please use this address for all deliveries via UPS, comman carrier, FEd
Ex, etc.)

Hank Murrow on mon 12 jun 00

>I am shelving a kiln with new shelves and going through two big
>bebates...
>
>first let me say that i fire to ^10 in a reduction atmosphere.
the burner ports are about 3-4" from the walls of the kiln. if i were to
>allow 2" of airspace on the sides, i would cover the burners. would
>this be acceptable? i am all for getting the most out of the airspace
>and using this extra 4". i spoke to Rick over at Aardvark and he said
>that he has seen it done but does not know how it tested out in the long
>term. he recommended that if i were to do this that i use the 1"
>cordierite shelves as they are less suceptable to thermal shock.
>
>now the main question is... can i cover the burner ports (allowing about
>3" for the heat to come in and flow) with shelves? has anyone had ANY
>exprience with this?? will it affect the firing schedule or reduction
>of the kiln? any input is appreciated.
>
>thanks.
>ray

Dear Ray; I have experience mainly with my cubic meter fiber-lined kiln
which is a Top Hat, or lifting design. For the record, I call it the
'Doorless FiberKiln'. My Crystar and Advancer shelves are placed three
inches from the walls, where there are four very small(3/4") flame
retention tips along each of the four walls; and the burner ports AIM the
flame fronts toward the walls.. Flame fronts are like water in their
behavior, in that they tend to 'hug' whatever surface they first contact.
Thus, I can report no problem with these shelves in 170 firings with them.
The 3/4" Ferro SiC setters used for 350 firings previously, did exhibit
cracking starting in the outside-middle of the shelves, which I attribute
to heat shock stresses. The thinner shelves of Nitride-bonded composition
seem to be more immune to such stress. It may be that just adopting a
gentler slope to BOTH the firing up AND cooling down of your firing will
alleviate these stresses. Good Luck! Hank in Eugene

Tim J Havens on mon 12 jun 00

Hey Ray : I have used this stacking procedure in an old Dickenson ( I
think ) years ago . They used two layers of shelves to protect the bottom
pots ( I think ) . The kiln used a manifold and a single burner , the
manifold had 12 ports ( I've always been intrigued by this approach ,
would love to see why the kiln builders of the present don't use this
method ; only one eyeball - inferred sensor and no pilot bar _ who knows
). Use two layers of shelves though . I'm assuming this is an updraft
your building . Also those bottom shelves are separated with a 1 or 2
inch ticker, depending on how brave or tight you are . Alohaz Tim ,
summer is about to hit Portland , the best in the world. In my opinion.
The temp. was 82 and the bar. is getting all the way up to 48 , For an ex
- Hawaiian this is no sweat .
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Ray Gonzalez on mon 12 jun 00

I am shelving a kiln with new shelves and going through two big
bebates...

first let me say that i fire to ^10 in a reduction atmosphere.

1. cordierite vs. silicon carbide (please read below)

2. this is a little more technical. i am shelving my fibre kiln. the
burner ports are about 3-4" from the walls of the kiln. if i were to
allow 2" of airspace on the sides, i would cover the burners. would
this be acceptable? i am all for getting the most out of the airspace
and using this extra 4". i spoke to Rick over at Aardvark and he said
that he has seen it done but does not know how it tested out in the long
term. he recommended that if i were to do this that i use the 1"
cordierite shelves as they are less suceptable to thermal shock.

now the main question is... can i cover the burner ports (allowing about
3" for the heat to come in and flow) with shelves? has anyone had ANY
exprience with this?? will it affect the firing schedule or reduction
of the kiln? any input is appreciated.

thanks.
ray

Tannaz Farsi on tue 4 jul 00

has anyone tried to make kiln shelves or know where i can find some info
on this? i have loads of cracked silica carbide shelves and want to put
them to use.
thanks
-tannz farsi
west virginia

Celia Littlecreek on sat 31 mar 01

Sorry to be a pest. I just joined the list and I have another question =
I need help with. I do Raku and like to use nice shelves. Is there =
such a thing as recipes for kiln shelves? I like the kind that are used =
in my electric kiln. I have used my Raku clay which is wonderful for my =
work. Really sturdy. I added lots of grog to my clay and made shelves, =
but they are very fragile, probably because they are flat as opposed to =
round forms (like pots) which are a stronger form.=20

Arnold Howard on sun 1 apr 01

I think it would be less expensive to buy shelves than to make your
own. Otherwise kiln manufacturers would make their own shelves,
too.

At Paragon many years ago, we made our own posts, but ended up
throwing many of them away. We never attempted shelves.

With best wishes,

Arnold Howard
Paragon

--- Celia Littlecreek wrote:
> Sorry to be a pest. I just joined the list and I have another
> question I need help with. I do Raku and like to use nice
> shelves. Is there such a thing as recipes for kiln shelves? I
> like the kind that are used in my electric kiln. I have used my
> Raku clay which is wonderful for my work. Really sturdy. I
> added lots of grog to my clay and made shelves, but they are very
> fragile, probably because they are flat as opposed to round
> forms (like pots) which are a stronger form.


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Jean Stephenson on tue 25 dec 01

I've been given some silicon carbide shelves for my birthday. On my =
mullite shelves Alice had recommended using ITC 296 A. That has worked =
very well. My question is, should I use the 296 A on the new silicon =
carbide shelves when they arrive? If not what would be the =
recommendations? =20

Happy Holidays, Jean on the southern Or. coast

Hank Murrow on wed 26 dec 01

>I've been given some silicon carbide shelves for my birthday. On my
>mullite shelves Alice had recommended using ITC 296 A. That has worked
>very well. My question is, should I use the 296 A on the new silicon
>carbide shelves when they arrive? If not what would be the
>recommendations?
>
>Happy Holidays, Jean on the southern Or. coast
>


Hey Jean just south of me:

Found this in the setter files:

Cheers, Hank in Eugene

From: Deborah Bouchette
Subject: Re: ITC on shelves
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by clavin.efn.org id
MAA13662
Status:

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
------------------
Use ITC-100. Yes, you can brush it on...get a big, wide "hake" brush and
put it
on thinly in one direction (like watery milk), then the opposite direction.
Keep shaking or whisking the container it's in. It'll be a little uneven, but
it's not uneven enough to matter, and the shelves don't warp, and most glaze
spots have popped right off (some have kinda soaked in, but none have eaten any
holes in the shelf).

deb

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Hill [SMTP:hill@mv.igs.net]
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 11:30 AM
Subject: ITC on shelves

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Could someone tell which ITC product could be applied to some new plate
setters I am going to use in my soda kiln.
Is it possilble brush it on in stead of spraying and can I apply it to
the undersides of the setters to protect them from the soda.

Thanks in advance
Dan Hill
Eastern Ontario, Canada.

Chris Jones on thu 27 dec 01

>
> From: Hank Murrow
> Date: 2001/12/26 Wed PM 11:33:55 EST
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: kiln shelves
>
> >I've been given some silicon carbide shelves for my birthday. On my
> >mullite shelves Alice had recommended using ITC 296 A. That has worked
> >very well. My question is, should I use the 296 A on the new silicon
> >carbide shelves when they arrive? If not what would be the
> >recommendations?
> >


Hello,
I make my own kiln wash that is totally superb! It goes on like latex paint, bonds wonderfully and releases when needed just right. I would be more than happy to send you a sample if you would like to try it. I have used it on most types of kiln shelves over the past 5 years or so and have had great results. I have to admit, I haven't tried ITC products, but I haven't had the need. Just contact me through my website e-mail at www.jonespottery.net .

Thanks, Chris

Martin Howard on thu 27 dec 01

Kathy wrote
starts to
warp. Eventually, they all do. So you turn it over to fire it hump side up.
Now you've a thick layer of grungey, flaky shelf wash on the underside of
your shelf, just begging to fall into your pots.>

We've been here before.

There is less warping the lower you fire.
IF you know your glazes and how much they run, then you can make sure they
do not run onto the shelves by leaving some of the pot unglazed. So no need
for batwash.

If you your glazes do not run, then a deep enough footring with three little
troughs through, will enable the whole pot to be dip-glazed with just a
touch of the footring onto some damp sponge. A twist into a layer of foam
rubber does the trick. No need for batwash.

If your glazes do run, then extra pottery bats are needed to fit your pots
and protect the shelves. Easy enough to arrange; or why not redesign the
glaze to stop the runs.

I've had enough of batwash, making my own from "silver paper" (tinfoil) and
buying in; so next time the kiln is empty on a nice bright spring-like day,
all the shelves will be outside and I'll wipe all of them clean. End of
little bits on the floor and scatter of batdust over the pots.

And an end to those mucky little white bits on the footrings and bases of
pots which need to taken off with the electric file.

We do make trouble for ourselves, due to listening to, reading about and
copying other potters, without thinking it all through clearly!!

Go on, give yourself a new year's resolution to get rid of all the fetish,
slavish, stupid, unnecessary parts of your present potting routine. Result:-
extra time for more pots, or updating your web site:-)

Martin Howard
Webbs Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
01371 850 423
martin@webbscottage.co.uk
http://www.webbscottage.co.uk
Updated 26/12/01

David Hendley on sun 16 feb 03

Wow. 100 kiln shelves. You are not going to like what I have to
say. I have been using the same silicon carbide shelves since
the 70's. Years in a gas kiln, and now 12 years in my Fastfire
wood kiln.
About 5 years ago I bought some Acme Marls shelves.
The silicon carbide shelves are so much better, there is no comparison.
If you buy high-alumina clay shelves, ITC will not protect them from
ash deposits in your anagama. They will sag so they need to be flipped
often, which makes using kiln wash very difficult.
I have also experienced small chips coming off the surface of my
clay shelves, and the edges are very fragile, with pieces crumbling off.
I would never use anything but silicon carbide. Unless of course
I had no money or was given clay shelves. Silicon carbide is cheaper
in the long run. Of course, I can't imagine buying 100 of them. That
might cost more than my entire pottery shop.

David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david@farmpots.com
http://www.farmpots.com



----- Original Message -----
> I need to buy some new kiln shelves. I've been using 2'x3' silicon carbide
> shelves that I got used from Kohler about fifteen years ago. I've been
> thinking of replacing them with some Acme-Marl shelves or the high alumina
> shelves that Bailey Ceramic Supply has. The ones from Bailey are claim to
> fire to cone 11. they are a lot cheaper than any source I have found from
> Acme-Marl.
> Has anyone used the Shelves from Bailey? I'm wondering if they are of the
> quality of Acme-Marl?
> I plan to use these in my anagama kiln, so I will coat them with ITC, to
> protect them from the ash and vapors. Will they stand the heat,that is my
> major concern.
> I need 100- 18x24x1 shelves so the investment is considerable, and so the
> difference in price between the Bailey shelves and the Acme-Marl would be
a
> real factor, if the Bailey shelves stand up to their claims.
> Any thoughts on what to do would be greatly appreciated.

Craig Edwards on sun 16 feb 03

Hello All;

I need to buy some new kiln shelves. I've been using 2'x3' silicon carbide
shelves that I got used from Kohler about fifteen years ago. I've been
thinking of replacing them with some Acme-Marl shelves or the high alumina
shelves that Bailey Ceramic Supply has. The ones from Bailey are claim to
fire to cone 11. they are a lot cheaper than any source I have found from
Acme-Marl.
Has anyone used the Shelves from Bailey? I'm wondering if they are of the
quality of Acme-Marl?
I plan to use these in my anagama kiln, so I will coat them with ITC, to
protect them from the ash and vapors. Will they stand the heat,that is my
major concern.
I need 100- 18x24x1 shelves so the investment is considerable, and so the
difference in price between the Bailey shelves and the Acme-Marl would be a
real factor, if the Bailey shelves stand up to their claims.
Any thoughts on what to do would be greatly appreciated.


Craig Edwards
New London MN

Where the cold is cold

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Kathi LeSueur on mon 17 feb 03

craigledwards@HOTMAIL.COM wrote:

> I started thinking about clay shelves when the silicon carbide ones
> started
> to form excessively in the long firings (72-104 hours) I had never had
> this
> happen in shorter firings (24-36 hours). I had some old Thorley
> shelves that
> had seen better days so I tried them. I thought that they would take me
> through the firing. Contrary to everything that I expected they came
> out of
> the firing in the same condition as they went in. I used them in two more
> long firings and two shorter firings and they are working much better than
> the silicon carbide shelves.
>
I've been using Thorley shelves for 25 years. I fire cone 10 reduction
with 11 down in the very middle of the kiln. I 've never had a problem
with the shelves. They are an excellent value.

kathi

Craig Edwards on mon 17 feb 03

hello David;
I started thinking about clay shelves when the silicon carbide ones started
to form excessively in the long firings (72-104 hours) I had never had this
happen in shorter firings (24-36 hours). I had some old Thorley shelves that
had seen better days so I tried them. I thought that they would take me
through the firing. Contrary to everything that I expected they came out of
the firing in the same condition as they went in. I used them in two more
long firings and two shorter firings and they are working much better than
the silicon carbide shelves. It baffles me.
I have fired several times with my good friend Svend Bayer, he uses clay
shelves , Acme Marl I believe. Not sure, I know that they come from
Stoke-on-Trent. Doesn't seem to have problems that you are having and I
expected. Hmmmm.. What to do.

Craig Edwards
New London



>
>Wow. 100 kiln shelves. You are not going to like what I have to
>say. I have been using the same silicon carbide shelves since
>the 70's. Years in a gas kiln, and now 12 years in my Fastfire
>wood kiln.
>About 5 years ago I bought some Acme Marls shelves.
>The silicon carbide shelves are so much better, there is no comparison.
>If you buy high-alumina clay shelves, ITC will not protect them from
>ash deposits in your anagama. They will sag so they need to be flipped
>often, which makes using kiln wash very difficult.
>I have also experienced small chips coming off the surface of my
>clay shelves, and the edges are very fragile, with pieces crumbling off.
>I would never use anything but silicon carbide. Unless of course
>I had no money or was given clay shelves. Silicon carbide is cheaper
>in the long run. Of course, I can't imagine buying 100 of them. That
>might cost more than my entire pottery shop.
>
>David Hendley
>Maydelle, Texas
>david@farmpots.com
>http://www.farmpots.com
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
> > I need to buy some new kiln shelves. I've been using 2'x3' silicon
>carbide
> > shelves that I got used from Kohler about fifteen years ago. I've been
> > thinking of replacing them with some Acme-Marl shelves or the high
>alumina
> > shelves that Bailey Ceramic Supply has. The ones from Bailey are claim
>to
> > fire to cone 11. they are a lot cheaper than any source I have found
>from
> > Acme-Marl.
> > Has anyone used the Shelves from Bailey? I'm wondering if they are of
>the
> > quality of Acme-Marl?
> > I plan to use these in my anagama kiln, so I will coat them with ITC, to
> > protect them from the ash and vapors. Will they stand the heat,that is
>my
> > major concern.
> > I need 100- 18x24x1 shelves so the investment is considerable, and so
>the
> > difference in price between the Bailey shelves and the Acme-Marl would
>be
>a
> > real factor, if the Bailey shelves stand up to their claims.
> > Any thoughts on what to do would be greatly appreciated.
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.


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Craig Edwards on thu 20 feb 03

Kathi: Thanks for the thoughts on Thorley shelve. I've also had good results
with them in the past. A good company with a good product.
I started thinking about trying A. Marl or Diamond shelves because of a
highter alumina content. That was the original thought.
David didn't have exactly have a glowing review of A. Marl.
I know that SiC shelves foam way to much in long firings- a friend compared
it to rabies:0)
Now I'm thinking that staying with Thorley might be the way to go.
My Oh My what to do.

Craig the Confused
New London MN





Kathi LeSueur

>>
>I've been using Thorley shelves for 25 years. I fire cone 10 reduction
>with 11 down in the very middle of the kiln. I 've never had a problem
>with the shelves. They are an excellent value.
>
>kathi
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.


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ronnie beezer on thu 13 mar 03

Hello everyone

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to salvage kiln shelves. I just overfired a full kiln and all the glazes ran all over the shelves. Some of the pieces actually are stuck to the shelf even though they were just re-done with kiln wash. The bottom of the kiln also has some glaze. Is there anything that can be done or do I have to purchase new shelves. I would hate to have to spend the money on new ones since I've only used them twice to fire glaze. I would appreciate any help.

Thanks, Ronnie



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Cat Jarosz on fri 14 mar 03

Angle grinder comes to mind for the really bad stuff with concrete wheel
head.. then you can use a sand paper disc thingy on the same tool to get the
kiln wash off... also I use a paint roller and pan to apply 3 thin
loads of kiln wash... too thick and you get a hell of a mess ( cracks in
first firing) too thin and it doesnt help much , let it dry inbetween coats
... you'll be ok and can save your shelves :o) easy with that angle
grinder cause you can grind your shelf away wear a mask and do
this outside big big mess.. Cat jarosz

lela martens on fri 14 mar 03

You could get on the phone and call Funeral monument places. Ask them if
they will sandblast the shelves for you. The companies here will for about
20$ Canadian per hour, it`s fast, and works very well. Saves hours of
grinding and a lot of dirty air. Best Wishes, Lela




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John Rodgers on fri 14 mar 03

You might try a little silica sand on the surface after the kiln wash is
applied. It allows the clay to move when it shrinks during firing. This
is expecially true when firing porcelain.

Jonothon in Birmingham

ronnie beezer wrote:

>Hello everyone
>
>Does anyone have a suggestion on how to salvage kiln shelves. I just overfired a full kiln and all the glazes ran all over the shelves. Some of the pieces actually are stuck to the shelf even though they were just re-done with kiln wash. The bottom of the kiln also has some glaze. Is there anything that can be done or do I have to purchase new shelves. I would hate to have to spend the money on new ones since I've only used them twice to fire glaze. I would appreciate any help.
>
>Thanks, Ronnie
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>

Snail Scott on fri 14 mar 03

At 08:27 PM 3/13/03 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone have a suggestion on how to salvage kiln shelves. I just
overfired a full kiln and all the glazes ran all over the shelves...


Get an angle grinder and put a masonry disc on it.
Cheap angle grinders can be purchased for as little
as $20. (You get what you pay for, to be sure, but
silica dust eats up their motors, so I wouldn't buy
a good one for grinding ceramic materials.) Grind out
the glaze drips, then fill the divots with kiln putty.
Let dry, then apply new kiln wash.

You need to get all the glaze out of the shelves.
Kiln wash may keep it from rising to the surface for
a while, but the hidden glaze may continue to eat
through the shelves, especially if you even have an
overfiring incident again. A few divots from the angle
grinder won't significantly weaken the shelves.

-Snail

John Rodgers on fri 14 mar 03

Ronnie, go to the nearest tool rental place and rent for a day (about
$10) a small highspeed grinder, and buy a couple of cement grinding
discs. These will take glaxe and stuck pottery off the shelves in a
heartbeat. ABSOLUTELY wear goggles for this job., and at least a dust
mask.. Clean both sides of the shelves. When done, blow all the dust off
with compressed air, and check the shelf condition. If to your
satisfaction, re-coat the shlf with kiln wash. DO NOT put kiln wash on
both sides. If you have kiln wash on both sides, when you are firing,
some times stuff will fall from the bottom of the shelf into your melted
glaze. That causes problems..

Good luck

John Rodgers

>Hello everyone
>
>Does anyone have a suggestion on how to salvage kiln shelves. I just overfired a full kiln and all the glazes ran all over the shelves. Some of the pieces actually are stuck to the shelf even though they were just re-done with kiln wash. The bottom of the kiln also has some glaze. Is there anything that can be done or do I have to purchase new shelves. I would hate to have to spend the money on new ones since I've only used them twice to fire glaze. I would appreciate any help.
>
>Thanks, Ronnie
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
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>Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>

Lily Krakowski on fri 14 mar 03

Oh dear. At least no one got hurt!

Every word Cat says is right. But I urge you to wear a hat, long sleeves, a
heavy jacket a face mask, goggles, and heavy gloves when doing all this.
Glaze chips propelled by a grinder can embed themselves in your skin just
like that. I once cut my finger washing a glaze chip out of my hair....

Also: AND THIS IS TOTALLY FROM LEFT FIELD BUT SOME POTTERS WILL KNOW.
Would sandblasting be of any purpose?


P.O. Box #1
Constableville, N.Y.
(315) 942-5916/ 397-2389

Be of good courage....

Snail Scott on fri 14 mar 03

At 05:48 PM 3/14/03 +0000, you wrote:
>Ask them if
>they will sandblast the shelves for you.


Some shelves are softer than the glaze that gets
stuck on them; you can blast a crater all around
the errant glaze spot before you get it all off.
Silicon carbide and other hard shelves work OK to
sandblast, but I'd avoid it with the mullite ones.

-Snail

Ric Swenson on fri 14 mar 03

Buy or borrow or rent an angle grinder and grind the glaze off the shelves. ( cost of a small unit, with an abrasive wheel....used ( ie. 'rebuilt'), at SEARS about $100.00 USD )

It's dirty and dangerous, so protect yourself from cuts and sharps, and dust. Hope you had the forthought to use kiln wash ( 50% Kaolin and 50 % 270 mesh silica ) otherwise, you may find a lot of grinding necessary. Use eye protection and wear heavy gloves. After you are done, use the kiln wash to prottect against the next over fire.... Or alternatively, don't overfire again. Keep the grinding level...try not to grind dips into the shelves !

Ric Swenson,
San Antonio

with experience in overfiring 'once'.

Sandy Cryer on fri 14 mar 03

Rent an 8" angle grinder and buy masonery grinder discs for it. Wear eye
protection and mask!! This is the best for heavy duty cleaning shelves.
Take care not to dig big gouges into the shelves.
Sandy Cryer in Arizona loving my new mug!!

Arnolds Home Improvements on fri 14 mar 03

This may be a crazy question, but what is the purpose of kiln wash anyway???

It seems that when there is as accident in the kiln the wash doesn't protect
the shelves or anything else anyway. And the time spent applying kiln wash
and removing it would be a waste of time and money IMHO.

I have never used kiln wash and so far no problems. When there is a accident
you still have to grind anyway.

Gene Arnold
mudduck@advi.net

Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 14 mar 03

I've never gotten the hang of my angle grinder, and frankly I am
scared to death of the thing. =20

What is a concrete wheel head? And at precisely what angle does one
hold the angle grinder? =20

I'm assuming, as always, goggles are in order for the task.

> Angle grinder comes to mind for the really bad stuff with concrete =
wheel
>head.. then you can use a sand paper disc thingy on the same tool to get=
the
>kiln wash off... also I use a paint roller and pan to apply 3 thin
>loads of kiln wash... too thick and you get a hell of a mess ( cracks=
in
>first firing) too thin and it doesnt help much , let it dry inbetween =
coats
>... you'll be ok and can save your shelves :o) easy with that angle
>grinder cause you can grind your shelf away wear a mask and =
do
>this outside big big mess.. Cat jarosz
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
______
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.

--------------------------------------------
=46ine Craft Porcelain - New and Updated for 2003!!
http://www.loisaronow.com=20

Sandy Cryer on sat 15 mar 03

I don't use kiln wash either, I know my glazes and protect the shelf with
shards or pc of old kiln shelf if I'm trying something new. I grind if a get
a drip. The grinding is less dusty when there is no kiln wash!! Kiln wash
is necessary though in a school or guild/club setting.
Sandy Cryer

Snail Scott on sat 15 mar 03

At 07:14 PM 3/14/03 -0500, you wrote:
>I've never gotten the hang of my angle grinder, and frankly I am
>scared to death of the thing. =20
>What is a concrete wheel head? And at precisely what angle does one
>hold the angle grinder? =20


Just get the discs that say 'Masonry' on them.
And the grinder should be held at an angle so=20
that the disc is at about a 15=BA-20=BA angle to=20
the surface being ground. You work with the=20
outer edge of the flat side, NOT edge-on=20
perpendicular.

A 4" grinder is sufficient; if you've got one=20
of those monster 7" grinders or larger, try a=20
smaller one. They're cheap, adequate, lightweight=20
and not nearly as daunting.

-Snail

Snail Scott on sat 15 mar 03

At 05:11 PM 3/14/03 -0500, you wrote:
>It seems that when there is as accident in the kiln the wash doesn't protect
>the shelves or anything else anyway...


It doesn't do a perfect job, but does work often
enough to save a whole lot of grinding. In my
experience, it often makes the difference between
a piece that ran but comes loose easily with a
spot of kiln wash stuck to its bottom, and a piece
that's actually stuck to the shelf. If you only
fire your own predictable glazes, and are careful
with tests, maybe you can skip it - it's a personal
choice. But, if you ever put other people's work
into your kiln, I'd use kiln wash...lots if it!

-Snail

Sam or Mary Yancy on sat 15 mar 03

Perhaps buy new shelves? I have had the same experience - and have done the "grinding trip" more than once. What a mess - and even though outside- took days to clean up the dust - off the surfaces, of my cloths (which I trashed) and off myself. Not good! Actually if you figure your time at $5 a hour, and cost of the grinding wheels, grinder, protective coverings, respirator and safety face mask, perhaps (if you have a large mess), it would be better to buy new shelfs. I do grind off small drips from time to time, but never again a large mess. P.S. There is also a safety issue of you are not familiar with high-speed grinders..If you are using one, be sure another person is in the area in case you have a mishap.... Regards, Sam in Daly City


> wrote:Buy or borrow or rent an angle grinder and grind the glaze off the shelves. ( cost of a small unit, with an abrasive wheel....used ( ie. 'rebuilt'), at SEARS about $100.00 USD )

It's dirty and dangerous, so protect yourself from cuts and sharps, and dust. Hope you had the forthought to use kiln wash ( 50% Kaolin and 50 % 270 mesh silica ) otherwise, you may find a lot of grinding necessary. Use eye protection and wear heavy gloves. After you are done, use the kiln wash to prottect against the next over fire.... Or alternatively, don't overfire again. Keep the grinding level...try not to grind dips into the shelves !

Ric Swenson,
San Antonio

with experience in overfiring 'once'.

______________________________________________________________________________
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

william schran on sat 15 mar 03

Gene wrote: wash doesn't protect
the shelves or anything else anyway. And the time spent applying kiln wash
and removing it would be a waste of time and money IMHO>

In an individual studio where one has control over all aspects of the
glazing/firing the application of kiln wash is probably not an
absolute necessity. In a larger studio or in a school situation where
there is less control over glazing application or lots of glaze
experimentation I believe the use of kiln wash is very helpful in
extending the life of the shelves. I know wash has saved the shelves
many times in our school.
Bill

Vince Pitelka on sat 15 mar 03

> You could get on the phone and call Funeral monument places. Ask them if
> they will sandblast the shelves for you. The companies here will for about
> 20$ Canadian per hour, it`s fast, and works very well. Saves hours of
> grinding and a lot of dirty air. Best Wishes, Lela

I am concerned about this. Unless you are sandblasting silicon carbide
shelves, the areas of the shelf without glaze will be softer than the areas
with glaze, so the sandblasting will cut far into the unglazed shelf surface
long befrore it removes the glaze runs. That could be a disaster.

Instead, I suggest you purchase a small cold chisel (3/8" to 1/2" wide) from
a good hardware store, and find someone with a bench grinder. The tip of
the chisel will come with an equal bevel on each side, and the objective is
to eliminate the bevel on one side by further grinding the bevel on the
other side. This will take a little patience on the bench grinder, and make
sure that you have a cup of water to dip the chisel tip in frequently to
keep it from overheating.

You want one side of the chisel to be flat right to the tip, while the other
side had the bevel. For clarification, see the section on preparation and
cleaning of kiln shelves in my book, or see the article exerted from my book
in the current issue of PMI.

Once you have the proper chisel and a small hammer, put on good safety
goggles, and begin chipping the glaze runs from the edge, with the flat side
of the chisel flat against the kiln shelf, so that the force of the
hammer/chisel is parallel to the shelf rather than against the shelf. The
whole purpose is to avoid cracking or breaking the kiln shelf, while still
being able to deliver a good whack each time to successfully chip off the
glaze.

Make sure that the shelf is resting on a folded towel, a sheet of foam
rubber, or some other soft cushion.

There will be some areas you simply cannot chip off, and for those you must
use an angle grinder with a masonry-grade grinding wheel, as has been
suggested already. Be sure to wear a dustmask, and do this grinding
outdoors. If you cannot find a masonry-grade grinding wheel for your angle
grinder, use one intended for ferrous metals. It will work almost as well.

Once you finish chipping and grinding the glaze off your shelf, if there are
pits, you might want to fill them with high-quality refractory cement.
Greenpatch 421 works well. It used to be an APGreen product, but is still
being made by whoever took over the company, and is available from most good
refractory suppliers. If you cannot find Greenpatch, any good high-duty
kiln-repair cement should work.

Before applying the patching mortar, moisten the ground surfaces of the
shelf generously with water. Like Portland cement, the patching mortar is
designed to air-set while it is still damp. If the shelf sucks the moisture
out of the mortar it will not develop good strength.

Apply the mortar with a trowel or putty knife, in repeated applications if
necessary to build it up slightly above the original surface of the shelf.
Let it cure completely for a few days, and then use the grinder very gently
to take it back down level. Heat the shelf gently the next time you use it
(as if you were doing a bisque firing) to drive off the moisture.
Good luck -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/

Michael Wendt on sat 15 mar 03

One other kind of masonry wheel is the "cup" wheel in silicon carbide. I use
mine in conjunction with a router speed control to slow the wheel down for
more control in our spray booth area to remove the occasional glaze drip or
sputter from a kiln shelf
Regards,
Michael Wendt.
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Avenue
Lewiston, Idaho 83501
1-208-746-3724
wendtpottery.com

Lois Ruben Aronow on sat 15 mar 03

>>It seems that when there is as accident in the kiln the wash doesn't =
protect
>>the shelves or anything else anyway...

I use a spitting glaze. (OK, others call it a crawling glaze, but it
spits like an orangutan!) I can oftentimes clean the shelves fairly
easily when they have a good kilnwash on them. =20

On the occasion that glaze has spat where this is no wash, or a very
thin coat, it's been a nightmare to get off.



--------------------------------------------
=46ine Craft Porcelain - New and Updated for 2003!!
http://www.loisaronow.com=20

Cindi Anderson on mon 17 mar 03

I have had cases where glaze ran a little off the pot. I was able to just
pick the pot up with the glaze run attached to the bottom edge, and nothing
stuck to the shelf. Couldn't have done that without kiln wash! I suspect
it depends on how thick your kiln wash is, what the composition is, and how
bad the run is.

Cindi

Arnold Howard on tue 18 mar 03

You should dig out the glaze from the kiln bottom before firing the kiln
again. You can use a screw driver to dig it out. Otherwise, the glaze
will remelt even deeper into the firebrick bottom. Glaze eats through
firebricks. You can fill the gouged-out firebrick with a 1:1 mixture of
powdered firebrick dust and kiln repair cement.

Also, be sure to dig out glaze drippings from the firebrick walls of
your kiln. Otherwise, the glaze can remelt into an element groove.

Sincerely,

Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P.
www.paragonweb.com



From: ronnie beezer
> Does anyone have a suggestion on how to salvage kiln shelves. I just
overfired a full kiln and all the glazes ran all over the shelves. Some
of the pieces actually are stuck to the shelf even though they were just
re-done with kiln wash. The bottom of the kiln also has some glaze. Is
there anything that can be done or do I have to purchase new shelves. I
would hate to have to spend the money on new ones since I've only used
them twice to fire glaze. I would appreciate any help.

mel jacobson on sun 2 nov 03

it is called responsibility for the tools of the studio.

talk to mechanics, look at their tool boxes.
clean, shiny, everything in place.
then, look at shop tools, those that are
purchased by the owner of the shop.
often dirty, worn, un/cared for. should not be that way.

a couple of the worst cases of anger
at hay creek have been from folks dropping off
pots, `hey, fire these, i have a show coming
up`.
earthenware clay, melted all over the kiln shelves.
all over other peoples fine pots.
now that raises hairs.
and, the perps are never seen from again.
being a good guy, and i paid the price.

it is called responsibility. not a great deal of that
around in some places...esp schools. and, we rarely
teach it. it is never anyone's fault. see a counselor.
`poor baby, here, let us put a cold towel on your head`.

it was not the way of our pottery at hopkins high.
and the kids bought into that idea fast.
responsible for your own work, your own ideas, and they were
responsible to fellow potters and the facility.
we made our own clay, we made our own glaze.
we bought our own wheels by sponsoring dances.
(one dance we invited two other schools...1400 kids
having a ball. not one problem. pure fun. and meet
new kids.) put a buck in a bucket. we bought
two wheels. we made all the hand tools for every kid.
a few scraps of wood and metal. they took their tools
with them when the graduated. we also repaired anything
that broke, with the kids holding the tools.

i never passed up a piece of foam. i would stop on the highway
to pick up a big chunk of foam. an old mattress would last us
two years. wash it in ammonia, cut it up into chunks.
a 250 foot roll of metal fish line would make hundreds of cut-
off wires. kids would even make the knobs for their cut-off wires
in the shapes of animals from clay. fired them in the bisque firing.
(if they get in the pug mill, they grind to grog.)

the clay program always was within it's budget.
i did not have to beg. we made do, the creative way.
and, as i said, if the kids take ownership, if they
take responsibility...things run well...and dignity for
self improves by leaps and bounds.
teaching self worth and responsibility comes from
the heart and the leader.
mel




From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: my.pclink.com/~melpots
or try: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
new/ http://www.rid-a-tick.com

Kathi LeSueur on fri 14 nov 03

In the latest issue of Clay Times is an ad for cordorite kiln shelves
from West Coast Kilns in California. I've always used Thorley kiln
shelves but now they've been sold to Laguna. I getting ready to place an
order for new shelves. Does anyone have experience with West Coast's
shelves? Or experience with shelves from Laguna since they bought Thorley?

Thanks,

Kathi

Brant Palley NMCLAY.com on sat 15 nov 03

What will you use them for? That is the question.

Brant
nmclay.com

Kathi LeSueur on sat 15 nov 03

brant@NMCLAY.COM wrote:

>What will you use them for? That is the question.
>
>Brant
>nmclay.com
>
>
>
>
Same thing I've always done with them.cone 10 reduction firing.

Kathi

Cindi Anderson on mon 17 nov 03

They can if you get them thick enough. Might have to be 1" or thicker
depending on the size of the shelf. The larger, the thicker necessary to
avoid warpage.

Cindi
Fremont, CA

Lisa Skeen on mon 17 nov 03

Hi! Can regular white refractory kiln shelves like you'd put in an electric kiln go in a ^10 kiln?

Thanks
L
L. P. Skeen http://www.living-tree.net
Living Tree Pottery
Summerfield, NC

Vince Pitelka on mon 17 nov 03

> Hi! Can regular white refractory kiln shelves like you'd put in an
electric kiln go in a ^10 kiln?

Lisa -
Most of the electric kiln shelves are mullite or cordierite, and will warp
badly at cone 10. For cone 10 you need high-alumina shelves. Axner has
excellent prices on high-alumina. Quite a few years ago we bought a big
supply of them, but we are still on the first set. They haven't warped a
bit. We bought the 13x26x1".
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Office - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 x111, FAX 615/597-6803
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/

Snail Scott on tue 18 nov 03

At 11:56 AM 11/17/03 -0700, you wrote:
Can regular white refractory kiln shelves like you'd put in an electric
kiln go in a ^10 kiln?


You mean the Thorleys that everyone seems to
use? Yes, but the thin ones will warp badly. If
you use the thicker shelves they'll be OK, but
they will still warp some, depending on how much
weight is on them. They will probably need to be
flipped now and then.

-Snail

RubiaM&M on tue 18 nov 03

in Brazil, in them we use a mixture of mulita and corderita. below
link of the manufacturer
http://www.estivarefratarios.com.br/en/index.htm

rubia moraes
são paulo. Brazil
Cindi Anderson escreveu:

>They can if you get them thick enough. Might have to be 1" or thicker
>depending on the size of the shelf. The larger, the thicker necessary to
>avoid warpage.
>
>Cindi
>Fremont, CA
>
>
>
>

Michael Wendt on tue 18 nov 03

I rarely disagree with Snail, but for those who fire the 12 sided round
updrafts, the large thin Thorleys not only go to cone 10 but beyond without
warping IF you keep the loads light and take care to flip them over
alternately. I fire plates and other light weight flat items on these to
cone 10, and some of those shelves have early 80s dates on them. Since I
fire 2-3 cone 10 loads every week, that must mean they have seen cone 10 or
better at least 50 times a year for 20 years or at least 1000 firings
without warping enough to harm the plates and tiles.
Side note: When the old Thorley guy Mr. Haecker was there, we talked every
time I visited Thorley and one time he told me that as the shelves go to
cone 10 repeatedly, the crystal structure continues to grow and their tests
showed they become stronger as they get older.
Snail wrote:
>You mean the Thorleys that everyone seems to
use? Yes, but the thin ones will warp badly. If
you use the thicker shelves they'll be OK, but
they will still warp some, depending on how much
weight is on them. They will probably need to be
flipped now and then.

-Snail

end snip
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
wendtpot@lewiston.com
www.wendtpottery.com/supply.htm

Snail Scott on wed 19 nov 03

At 01:30 PM 11/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
>I rarely disagree with Snail, but for those who fire the 12 sided round
>updrafts, the large thin Thorleys not only go to cone 10 but beyond without
>warping IF you keep the loads light and take care to flip them over
>alternately.


Actually, I think we're more or less in
agreement; it's our definition of lightweight
loading that varies. I seldom fire anything
as light as plates - my usual work starts at
about 10# - and even the 1" thick ones will
warp under a 50# sculpture, eventually. For
genuinely lightweight work like pottery,
though, by all means use the thin ones, but
do flip 'em as Michael suggests.

Another trick to reduce warping - if your
laoding allows for it, don't put the posts
right at the edge of the shelves. If you
can move them in even an inch or two, you
improve the resistance to warping a lot!

-Snail

Tig Dupre on fri 5 mar 04

Dear Mudbuds,

I need to get some new shelves for my L&L JD230, now several years old, and well-used. The kiln takes 20" round shelves, available from L&L for $55 each. I can use 19" shelves, but am having a hard time finding and getting any.

I have ordered some through Clayart Center in Tacoma, but they're having troubles getting stuff from California. It's been a while, and the truck coming northward just can't seem to make it this far.

Do you all have any good connections on the West Coast (Washington state, in particuar), or ideas for ordering directly from a manufacturer? Barring that, any ideas on making shelves for myself? Clay body formulas, firing, methods, and such are all appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Tig
in Port Orchard, WA

Rob Van Rens on fri 5 mar 04

Tig, ol' buddy...

Call Laguna in CA, they own Thorley Refractories these days and can get you
set up.

Rob Van Rens

Frederick Clay Art Center
5400 Yukon Ct, Unit 500
Frederick, MD 21758

(301) 371-0310
www.frederickclayartcenter.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tig Dupre"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 11:09 AM
Subject: Kiln Shelves


> Dear Mudbuds,
>
> I need to get some new shelves for my L&L JD230, now several years old,
and well-used. The kiln takes 20" round shelves, available from L&L for $55
each. I can use 19" shelves, but am having a hard time finding and getting
any.
>
> I have ordered some through Clayart Center in Tacoma, but they're having
troubles getting stuff from California. It's been a while, and the truck
coming northward just can't seem to make it this far.
>
> Do you all have any good connections on the West Coast (Washington state,
in particuar), or ideas for ordering directly from a manufacturer? Barring
that, any ideas on making shelves for myself? Clay body formulas, firing,
methods, and such are all appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Tig
> in Port Orchard, WA
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

Kathi LeSueur on mon 27 dec 04

I have five 14" square silicon carbide shelves (good condition) free to
anyone who wants them and can pick them up. I live in Ann Arbor, MI.

Kathi

deborah olson on sat 19 mar 05

I have 8 1/2 12 sided 26"x1" kiln shelves for sale @$25 each.
I am located in central Wis. Can bring to Minneapolis. Please call.
Deborah Olson
Stolp Pottery-
w8648 Sand Rd
Neillsville, Wi 54456
715 743-4041

Rod Wuetherick on wed 13 apr 05

> Questions:
> Why was the time the same but the end absolute temperature so different?

I would think simply that as you know our probes only measure actual
temperature and not the relationship of
time and temperature i.e heat work. This is directly related I think to
your next question.

> Is 1/3 of the cost of firing due to kiln furniture?

You bet it is! When I fire matt glazes I always use soaps instead of regular
kiln stilts. Boy do those soaps suck up the BTU's like a parched camel.

I think this also answers your question above. Instead of that heat work
going into shelves, posts, etc. The work went into your sculpture instead of
the stacking furniture. This way the firing time was still the same yet the
work was where you wanted it.

I'm sure you have fired real fast before and noticed that hey my probe says
13.1, 13.2 and cone 9 is just going down. Add a few hours onto the firing
and cone 10 will be laying flat at 13.1.

> Does any one else have similar results?

So yep happens to me almost everytime I try and new firing schedule!

One thing I was wondering is you said you fired with less gas and your
sculpture looked like it had more oxidation. If your damper settings,
primary, and secondary air were all the same I would suspect becuase you
were using less gas and you were reducing less as well.

peace,
Rod

Mark Issenberg on fri 29 feb 08

About Geil and his kilns and shelves..I had been trying to talk to someone
for months.. I was told that they would get back to me.. They never did. I
called every couple of weeks and was told they would call me back, never
happened.

Finally last week the girl put me on hold for awhile then told me the
shelves were guaranteed for a year.. I didn't even know that. I got NO paper work
with the kiln shelves.. If up front on the first call told me I was SOL I
guess that would have worked.. But to keep putting me off so I had to wait till I
had to go to NCECA to talk to Geil BS

Mark



**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Tony Ferguson on fri 29 feb 08

Yeah,

I would have to agree with your Mark, a person should not have to wait to talk to someone in person to get resolution.

Tony

Mark Issenberg wrote: About Geil and his kilns and shelves..I had been trying to talk to someone
for months.. I was told that they would get back to me.. They never did. I
called every couple of weeks and was told they would call me back, never
happened.

Finally last week the girl put me on hold for awhile then told me the
shelves were guaranteed for a year.. I didn't even know that. I got NO paper work
with the kiln shelves.. If up front on the first call told me I was SOL I
guess that would have worked.. But to keep putting me off so I had to wait till I
had to go to NCECA to talk to Geil BS

Mark



**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com




Tony Ferguson
315 N. Lake Ave. Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
...where the sky meets the lake...

Artist, Educator, Photographer, Film Maker, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.tonyferguson.net





---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

tony clennell on sat 1 mar 08

Mark: A couple of tricks for getting service when you need it. don't
phone every couple of weeks. Phone every day and be like an itch that
won't go away. I have also used Dr. on occassion and that seems to
work. Say Dr. Mark Issenberg is calling. Otherwise they just think
you're a potter and how smart does that make ya.
I tell people when talking about our business here it's product,
service and experience. We try to do all well. Sometimes i wish I
could just make pots.
cya in the Pits.
Tony

On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 1:48 PM, Mark Issenberg wrote:
> About Geil and his kilns and shelves..I had been trying to talk to someone
> for months.. I was told that they would get back to me.. They never did. I
> called every couple of weeks and was told they would call me back, never
> happened.
>
> Finally last week the girl put me on hold for awhile then told me the
> shelves were guaranteed for a year.. I didn't even know that. I got NO paper work
> with the kiln shelves.. If up front on the first call told me I was SOL I
> guess that would have worked.. But to keep putting me off so I had to wait till I
> had to go to NCECA to talk to Geil BS
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
> Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
>



--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com

Carl Finch on mon 3 mar 08

At 08:31 AM 3/3/2008, Arnold Howard wrote:

>I can offer several pointers in dealing
>with a customer service department for
>any type of product:

>6) When you complain, try to find something
> nice to say about the product, too.

Ahh, yes--great idea, Arnold!

Your number (6) reminded me of a presentation I heard 25 years ago by
the noted family therapist, Virginia Satir. She told of a family she
had once counseled which included a teenage son who had recently
impregnated a second high school classmate.

What could she say that was "nice" about this kid to help placate his
angry parents?! Finally, she admitted, she had reflected, "Well, at
least we know he has good seed!"

--Carl
in Medford, Oregon

KATHI LESUEUR on mon 3 mar 08

On Mar 1, 2008, at 8:46 AM, tony clennell wrote:

> Mark: A couple of tricks for getting service when you need it. don't
> phone every couple of weeks. Phone every day and be like an itch that
> won't go away. I have also used Dr. on occassion and that seems to
> work. Say Dr. Mark Issenberg is calling. Otherwise they just think
> you're a potter and how smart does that make ya.
> I tell people when talking about our business here it's product,
> service and experience. We try to do all well. Sometimes i wish I
> could just make pots.
> cya in the Pits.
> Tony


I don't have time to sit on the phone everyday because a company
won't respond to my problem. I have to make a living. I don't think I
should have to resort to subterfuge because I'm just a potter. Is
that how you run your business, Tony?If someone calls and tells you
one of your beautiful casseroles cracked the first time it was used
would you say, "I'll get back to you" and then ignore them forever?
I don't think so. I know I wouldn't. I spent two months trying to get
Laguna to talk to me. It was only when I posted my experience on
Clayart that the money for the cracked shelves was refunded. Of
course, I had to eat the freight.

Kathi
>
>

Arnold Howard on mon 3 mar 08

From: "tony clennell"
> Mark: A couple of tricks for getting service when you need
> it. don't
> phone every couple of weeks. Phone every day and be like
> an itch that
> won't go away. I have also used Dr. on occassion and that
> seems to
> work. Say Dr. Mark Issenberg is calling.

I, too, have had my share of customer service difficulties.
Just last week I dealt with a car dealership over defective
tires.

I'm not actually in customer service at Paragon. However,
since I work for a manufacturer, I can offer several
pointers in dealing with a customer service department for
any type of product:

1) Deal with the distributor first rather than the
manufacturer. The distributor is your advocate and can
sometimes speed up resolution of your problem.

2) Notify the distributor/manufacturer of a problem as soon
as possible. The sooner you contact them, the more likely
that your problem will be resolved. (Also, the sooner you
use a new product, the better. One time I bought an
expensive tape recorder and didn't even use it until it was
out of warranty. It failed to work the first time I turned
it on.)

3) Before you call, read the warranty so that you will know
what to expect from the customer service rep.

4) Compile a list of every pertinent fact that you can think
of and have it in front of you when you contact the company.
This might include date of purchase, number of firings,
serial number if any, model number, etc. The biggest cause
of delay in resolving a problem is lack of information.

5) Some companies respond better to emails than to phone
calls. You might give that a try before you call, especially
if you are upset. The email gives the customer service rep
time to research the problem for you. Include your phone
number in the email.

6) When you complain, try to find something nice to say
about the product, too. Few people do this when they
complain, but it makes a difference. The customer service
rep is just as human as your next door neighbor.

7) Write down the name of the customer service rep who is
helping you. Ask for that person if you need to call back.

8) If you are upset, have someone else who is more detached
talk to the customer service rep for you--a spouse or one of
your older kids.

Sincerely,

Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com

William & Susan Schran User on tue 4 mar 08

On 3/3/08 11:31 AM, "Arnold Howard" wrote:

> When you complain, try to find something nice to say
> about the product, too. Few people do this when they
> complain, but it makes a difference. The customer service
> rep is just as human as your next door neighbor.

I understand this is often tough to do, but it is often very helpful in
resolving any number of issues.

Any time I have a problem with a business or person, I always start with
something positive. I have learned folks will often focus in on the first
words out of your mouth.

When I do critiques in my classes I ALWAYS find something positive to say
right from the start, then I will discuss areas that could benefit from
change/improvement.

Bill


--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

jonathan edward byler on thu 27 mar 08

Does anyone else make the nitride bonded shelves other than the
chinese? Is that what Bailey and Axner have for sale? I don't know
how much our wood kiln will get fired, I figure a couple times a year
unless people get very interested in the results. I have been trying
to work around the shelves that we already have for our regular gas
kilns so that I can cycle them out as they start to wear out. I
figured a couple of firings in a wood kiln before they are put out to
pasture might be one way to get some extra life out of them. Is that
a crazy notion, or would I be much better off biting the bullet and
buying new for the wood kiln?

-jon

jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849

jonathan edward byler on thu 27 mar 08

I am looking at getting kiln shelves for a soda/salt kiln (cone 10),
a wood kiln (cone 10/11), and for our regular gas kilns (cone 10).
Any suggestions of pros and cons of various types of shelves for the
various types of kilns?

I have heard that the advancer patent runs out in august or so, and
that there are people geared up to make similar shelves, which might
make them more reasonably priced. These look great on one level (no
glaze sticking, light, etc), but they also have the caveat of violent
explosions if subjected to moisture.

how do nitride bonded silicon carbide and silicon carbide shelves
compare, especially soda/salt and wood firings?

are high alumina shelves, such as those sold by bailey pottery,
suitable in wood kilns? It is my understanding that a soda/salt kiln
would eat these for lunch...

one thing I am looking for in a shelf is easy removal of glaze drips
and runs since I am working in an educational setting with some
students who it seems at times insist on putting runny glazes on to
thickly. I don't personally care much about the weight per shelf,
although lighter shelves are a nice touch. I am interested in
durability and immunity from abuse, as we don't always get bundles of
money to buy new loot around here.

I know there are compromises to be made in all aspects of this, and
need a bit more information than I have been able to get so far in
making an informed decision.


Thanks in advance,

jon


jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849

William & Susan Schran User on thu 27 mar 08

On 3/27/08 1:59 PM, "jonathan edward byler" wrote:

> I am looking at getting kiln shelves for a soda/salt kiln (cone 10),
> a wood kiln (cone 10/11), and for our regular gas kilns (cone 10).
> Any suggestions of pros and cons of various types of shelves for the
> various types of kilns?

Jonathan,

I'm currently writing the kiln shelf section for Mel's book that I think
will come out this fall.

The only shelves you'll get that are truly easy to remove glaze drips are
the Advancers. The Chinese made nitride bonded shelves have gotten glaze on
them and came off fairly easy without having used kiln wash. Problem is
quality control seems to be lacking, so there seems to be good batches and
bad ones. I'd stay away from them for a while.
Advancers can be used in wood/salt, but not in areas with possible flame
contact. St. Gobains also makes a Sic shelf, named Crystolon, that is highly
recommended for salt/wood firings. Chinese are making some thinner oxide
bonded Sic shelves that show promise, but they, like the nitride bonded
ones, have expansion cuts in them - some folks question why they're needed.

I've begun testing several different shelves ^10 reduction, but only have a
few firings in so far. More later in Mel's book.

Bill

--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

William & Susan Schran User on fri 28 mar 08

On 3/27/08 11:37 PM, "jonathan edward byler" wrote:

> Does anyone else make the nitride bonded shelves other than the
> chinese? Is that what Bailey and Axner have for sale?

So far as I am aware, the only nitride bonded SiC shelves made in USA are
the Advancers. I know that Euclid's and Larkin are supplied by the same
manufacturer as are others. Who supplies Bailey & Axner, you'll have to ask.

Just to make sure everyone understands, this is information I have gotten by
talking to manufacturers & resellers:

Advancers are made by slip casting, using highly quality controlled
materials (very fine particle SiC), then undergo two firings, one in
nitrogen atmosphere, then a second time in oxidizing to form a glassy layer.
This creates a <1% porosity. EVERY shelf is inspected for deflection and
must be less than .003" - that means very flat!
U.S. Labor, quality controlled materials, slip casting, twice fired, careful
inspection - all that costs more!

ALL the rest are nitride bonded shelves manufactured in China. The quality
control of materials has been called into question, the shelves are ram
pressed, expansion cuts have been introduced to prevent cracking (FYI, don't
cover the cuts with posts or pots), they are fired only once (there is some
suspicion by resellers that after the nitrogen atmosphere, it must be
cleaned up in oxidizing which may not be done correctly leading to defects)
and the shelves are not being inspected (resellers have told me they've
received shelves with small cracks). So, apparently some good batches are
delivered and others are defective from the factory. Deflection of .005 is
acceptable for these shelves.

I'm testing nitride bonded and a oxide bonded Chinese manufactured shelves
in our ^10 reduction firings at school, holding up ok so far, though the
nitride bonded shelf seems to have warped a bit.

Bill

--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

Jennifer Boyer on fri 28 mar 08

I got some years ago from New Castle Refractories. I Googled them and
found they ahve been bought by a Pittsburgh, PA company:
http://www.rescoproducts.com/companynews.asp?ID=62

Mine had some cracking problems in the beginning and New Castle
replaced a few. I'm getting more cracking now, but it's been 10 years
or so since I bought them. I'm swapping them out for Advancers.

On Mar 28, 2008, at 11:29 AM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:

> On 3/27/08 11:37 PM, "jonathan edward byler"
> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone else make the nitride bonded shelves other than the
>> chinese? Is that what Bailey and Axner have for sale?
>
> So far as I am aware, the only nitride bonded SiC shelves made in
> USA are
> the Advancers. I know that Euclid's and Larkin are supplied by the
> same
> manufacturer as are others. Who supplies Bailey & Axner, you'll
> have to ask.
>
> Just to make sure everyone understands, this is information I have
> gotten by
> talking to manufacturers & resellers:
>
> Advancers are made by slip casting, using highly quality controlled
> materials (very fine particle SiC), then undergo two firings, one in
> nitrogen atmosphere, then a second time in oxidizing to form a
> glassy layer.
> This creates a <1% porosity. EVERY shelf is inspected for
> deflection and
> must be less than .003" - that means very flat!
> U.S. Labor, quality controlled materials, slip casting, twice
> fired, careful
> inspection - all that costs more!
>
> ALL the rest are nitride bonded shelves manufactured in China. The
> quality
> control of materials has been called into question, the shelves are
> ram
> pressed, expansion cuts have been introduced to prevent cracking
> (FYI, don't
> cover the cuts with posts or pots), they are fired only once (there
> is some
> suspicion by resellers that after the nitrogen atmosphere, it must be
> cleaned up in oxidizing which may not be done correctly leading to
> defects)
> and the shelves are not being inspected (resellers have told me
> they've
> received shelves with small cracks). So, apparently some good
> batches are
> delivered and others are defective from the factory. Deflection of .
> 005 is
> acceptable for these shelves.
>
> I'm testing nitride bonded and a oxide bonded Chinese manufactured
> shelves
> in our ^10 reduction firings at school, holding up ok so far,
> though the
> nitride bonded shelf seems to have warped a bit.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

***************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
http://jboyerdesign.com
http://artisanshand.com
***************************

miriam on fri 28 mar 08

Do you turn your shelves over each time you fire? I have found that doing
this has helped with Not warping.

I mark the shelves a and b. That way I know what side to put down....

miriam

----- Original Message -----
From: "William & Susan Schran User"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: kiln shelves
>
> I'm testing nitride bonded and a oxide bonded Chinese manufactured shelves
> in our ^10 reduction firings at school, holding up ok so far, though the
> nitride bonded shelf seems to have warped a bit.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran

William & Susan Schran User on fri 28 mar 08

On 3/28/08 9:23 PM, "miriam" wrote:

> Do you turn your shelves over each time you fire? I have found that doing
> this has helped with Not warping.

Depends on the shelf.
Advancers, no need to flip.
Any others, all need to be flipped at some point.
Just surprised I would notice warping after 3 firings!

Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

Shula on sat 29 mar 08

Bill,

I'm planning to buy an electric kiln very soon. If I buy a top loader, I plan to buy Advancers. As I understand it, I will have to unplug the kiln (or turn off the electric to the kiln since the kiln I buy will have to be hard wired) before I load or unload the kiln. Do you (or does anyone else) have comments about Advancers for an electric kiln?

Thanks

Shula
in sunny, windy Desert Hot Springs, California USA

>The only shelves you'll get that are truly easy to remove glaze drips are
>the Advancers.
>
>I've begun testing several different shelves ^10 reduction, but only have a
>few firings in so far. More later in Mel's book.
>

William & Susan Schran User on sat 29 mar 08

On 3/29/08 3:16 PM, "Shula" wrote:

> I'm planning to buy an electric kiln very soon. If I buy a top loader, I =
plan
> to buy Advancers. As I understand it, I will have to unplug the kiln (or =
turn
> off the electric to the kiln since the kiln I buy will have to be hard wi=
red)
> before I load or unload the kiln. Do you (or does anyone else) have comme=
nts
> about Advancers for an electric kiln?

Silicon carbide shelves in electric kilns have always been thought to be a
no-no. Silicon carbides does conduct electricity, there's the issue of
silicon carbide in an oxidizing atmosphere and the issue of temperature
gradients across the shelf causing cracking.

But then Advancers came along.
Yes, you can use Advancers in electric kilns, top loading or front loading.

Marshall Browne at Smith-Sharpe, who worked with Mike Arbini at St. Gobians
to develop the Advancers for electric kilns explained they ran tests by
laying elements across the Advancers and energized them and found the
shelves conducted no electric current.

I use them in my kiln in which I fire crystalline glazes. I chose to bite
the bullet and buy one full and two half shelves. The full 21" shelf cost m=
e
$244 a couple years ago and they have gone up.

I was concerned as my typical crystal firing ramps up at 500=B0F to 750=B0F per
hour that I might have cracking issues. I started firing at 300=B0F per hour
until about 700=B0F, but have since gone back to fast firing right from the
start with no problems.

Even if you hard wire the kiln, I'd suggest you switch off the local
disconnect you should have near the kiln anytime you're not actually firing
no matter what shelves you use.

Bill

--=20
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

shane mickey on sat 29 mar 08

jon
et al, i know of folks using the chinese shelves with the strees cuts, =
they are holding up fine so far
and some are in wood/soda. You should use the old shelves till they are =
badly cracked or to=20
warped to use. but plan your kiln around whatever size kiln you want to =
buy next.
shane mickey
shane mickey kiln building and design services

jonathan byler on sun 16 nov 08

Vince, Bill, june, others,

Thanks for the tips. The shipping expenses seem to be a real killer,
so the place in Lithonia, GA may work out. it is only about 3 hours
away, and with gas ever cheaper, it may make sense to go and pick
some up. I wrote emails to some suppliers, including kinlshelf.com,
but have not heard back yet. We shall wait and see. I wonder if
prices will start to come down a bit with the crap economy and all?
-jon


jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849

On Nov 16, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Bill Merrill wrote:

> Firebrick Supply in Minneapolis is a good source for kiln shelves.
> Ask
> to speak to Donna.
> She has been the person I have dealt with for years. Wally Schwab in
> Portland said he purchased Advancer shelves directly from the factory
> and that while he had to buy quite a number of them they were
> considerably less expensive.
>
> http://www.kilnshelf.com/
>
> Bill Merrill

Bill Merrill on sun 16 nov 08

Firebrick Supply in Minneapolis is a good source for kiln shelves. Ask
to speak to Donna.
She has been the person I have dealt with for years. Wally Schwab in
Portland said he purchased Advancer shelves directly from the factory
and that while he had to buy quite a number of them they were
considerably less expensive.

http://www.kilnshelf.com/

Bill Merrill

marci and rex on fri 3 jul 09

At 08:30 PM 7/3/2009, Lis Allison wrote:
> Let the AH fall on the floor and periodically sweep (wear a
>mask) it up and re-use.


I use half shelves in my kiln and I also use the dry AH
on them ...but after I take the shelves out of the kiln , I
stand the shelves on end inside a tall plastic waste basket and
then use a large
paint brush to brush the AH off the shelf into
the trash can .. No mess to clean up and when
I m ready to fire , I just scoop the AH out
of the can and into a strainer I use that to sift the
AH back onto the shelves.
If you use full shelves, then maybe a large plastic
storage bin or something like that would work ... ( and that
would have a snap on lid.. )

Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com

rfsanterre on thu 1 oct 09

I'm in the market for new kiln shelves. I'm firing to cone 10, gas
reduction. =3D20

=3D20

Geil sells a hollow-core high alumina shelf . Has anyone had any =3D
experience
with these hollow-core shelves. They seem like a good idea, but I'd
appreciate any comments - good or bad - about warping, cracking, etc.

=3D20

Thanks, Bob

=3D20

Arrowsic Island Pottery

aipots@gwi.net=3D20

William & Susan Schran User on thu 1 oct 09

On 10/1/09 12:42 PM, "rfsanterre" wrote:

> I'm in the market for new kiln shelves. I'm firing to cone 10, gas
> reduction.
> Geil sells a hollow-core high alumina shelf . Has anyone had any experie=
nce
> with these hollow-core shelves. They seem like a good idea, but I'd
> appreciate any comments - good or bad - about warping, cracking, etc.

During the year of testing a variety of shelves in preparation for writing
the shelf section of our (well, Mel's name is on it but I think of it as
ours) book on kilns, the Corelite shelves you ask about were included in al=
l
the ^10 reduction firings. Resco, the manufacturer, sent me 2 each of the
12x24 shelves to test.
They are high alumina shelves and are holding up well. I washed one side an=
d
decided to not flip them to see if they would warp. They've stayed flat so
far. Given they are cordierite/alumina, you must protect the surface with
kiln wash.

They also gave me a 15" octagonal shelf to at NCECA to test in our raku
firings. The shelf cracked/broke after the 3rd firing, so I would recommend
them for that type of firing.

Bill

--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

jonathan byler on thu 1 oct 09

If these are the "core lite" shelves, I hear they come highly
recommended, except for raku. I am looking into them myself
eventually. if you get them, please report back to us.


On Oct 1, 2009, at 11:42 AM, rfsanterre wrote:

> I'm in the market for new kiln shelves. I'm firing to cone 10, gas
> reduction.
>
>
>
> Geil sells a hollow-core high alumina shelf . Has anyone had any
> experience
> with these hollow-core shelves. They seem like a good idea, but I'd
> appreciate any comments - good or bad - about warping, cracking, etc.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bob
>
>
>
> Arrowsic Island Pottery
>
> aipots@gwi.net

Brandon Phillips on thu 1 oct 09

Several years ago i bought imported shelves from Larkin Refractories, 15:
12x24x5/8. They are the "Fines Bonded"(whatever that means?) not the
nitride bonded which some folks have had problems with. They have been
through about 40 salt firings, and 15 wood/salt firings. Never flipped,
not a warped one in the bunch(couple firings in the cone 13 range) and no
cracks. I think they still sell them for $45-50. A lot of people assume
that since they are from china they are crap. I've used mullite,
cordierite, 3/4" SiC shelves and high alumina and the imported shelves
have been superior in durability to all of them. glaze drips and salr
residue don't melt into the shelf and they often come off with a scraper
or a rub brick, I rarely have to use a grinder. I think advancers are the
only shelves better than these...just my opinion.

Brandon Phillips
www.supportyourlocalpotter.com


> I'm in the market for new kiln shelves. I'm firing to cone 10, gas
> reduction.

Sean Burns on fri 2 oct 09

>I'm in the market for new kiln shelves. I'm firing to cone 10, gas
>reduction.=3D20=3D20
> a hollow-core high alumina shelf . Has anyone had any experience
>with these hollow-core shelves.=3D20=3D20
>Thanks, Bob
>
>=3D20
> Bob, Use Corelite hollow core shelves at my high school- Only to Cone 6=
=3D
=3D20
Elec. but we love em- light- havent warped or caused any trouble yet and =
=3D
I=3D20
dont expect them to.
Sean Burns
Williamsburg=
=3D
, Ma.

Steve Mills on fri 2 oct 09

I had some seconds hollow core shelves from Acme Marls here in the UK about=
25 years ago. They were intended for commercial Tunnel Kiln users and were=
big! they were extruded 24" X 48" X 2", fired and then ground flat.
They are amazing; very strong, light (in comparison), and have never warped=
.
I still have several, and use (and abuse) them for wood firing et al.

Steve
Bath
UK





________________________________
From: rfsanterre
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2009 5:42:49 PM
Subject: Re: kiln shelves

I'm in the market for new kiln shelves. I'm firing to cone 10, gas
reduction.



Geil sells a hollow-core high alumina shelf . Has anyone had any experienc=
e
with these hollow-core shelves. They seem like a good idea, but I'd
appreciate any comments - good or bad - about warping, cracking, etc.



Thanks, Bob



Arrowsic Island Pottery

aipots@gwi.net