Tom Wirt on wed 3 sep 97
>Anyway, the point is, all business ventures are hard. And I think any
>professor that told their students it was going to be easy would be
>doing
>them a disservice.
>If you want to try it and are willing to make some sacrifices and work
>hard,
>then go for it.
>Craig Fent
A very good point, Craig, and having been self-employed in several areas
over the last 25 years, I'll attest that it's true. The rule-of-thumb is
that it'll take 3-5 years to establish a business....and that's if you
know what you're doing and are well capitalized.
When I did free-lance marketing consulting, the standard line was call on
the customers during the day to get the work and present proposals, do
the work at night.
I establishing a retail store, we built the fixtures, found the work, did
the accounting, waited on the customers, etc., etc., and then had a
second part-time job that worked around the retail hours.
Easy? Never. But if you're not dedicated to doing whatever it takes to
get yourself established, think twice about going it alone. Get ahold of
Anthony Robbins' "Awakening The Giant Within" (approx title) to look at
the mentality that is required.
You can make a living at pottery. I suspect there are several thousand
out there in the U.S. alone doing it right now.
Tom Wirt
The Clay Coyote Pottery
Hutchinson, MN
claypot@hutchtel.net
Mel Jacobson on tue 9 sep 97
it is also remindful of the list of piano players dan"
i have a friend, plays fiddle, does mozart, classical, wears a tux.
symphony for awhile, teaches fiddle, golden strings at a big
hotel for years. i asked him one day...."where does the most
money come from playing fiddle"...he said "polka nites and
polka weddings.....but you gotta watch the fights..can be
dangerous". go make some mugs.
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Dan Wilson on wed 10 sep 97
Mel,
Your message reminded me of my uncle, twin brother of my mom. (niece of
aunt Lilly incedently) Played the guitar in the beginning. I guess this was
back in the 50's just after the Korean war and for some time thereafter. He
and a little group of friends under the influence of a dream, thought
they'ed make it big as a country-western band. They'ed travel all around
the county playin at the various taverns and temples and lodges. Made a
little reputation for themselves too. Singin songs like "Strawberry Roan"
and "Ragtime Cowboy Joe". The old classics. Anyway, to make a long story
short, he lost the first finger of his right hand one night at a bar. He
said it was on a bet that he held up an empty bottle of beer for a friend
who was sure he could shoot it out of his hand from clear accross the room.
I guess his friend had just a little too much alcohol in him or maybe it
was the smoke in the air cause he missed by just a couple of inches. "I'm
just happy it wasn't my left hand." my uncle told me "All my music is in my
left hand."
As for making some "mugs"... The world is full of people makin mugs just
cause someone told em to. I'm not one of em.
"Are you fearless? Can you compete without getting personal? Maybe you can
go into business too."
http://www.nas.com/~dwilson/
Heidi Haugen on mon 8 jan 01
For the benefit for all of us with gretchen's question concerning making
a living, please post to the list, not privately as I imagine there are
many of us at the transition point who would love the info and advice:)
Heidi Haugen
Isao & Don on tue 9 jan 01
At 11:56 1/8/01 -0700, Heidi Haugen wrote:
>For the benefit for all of us with gretchen's question concerning making
>a living, please post to the list, not privately as I imagine there are
>many of us at the transition point who would love the info and advice:)
>
>Heidi Haugen,I know we have answered this question number of times over
the years. The further question is : What are your expectations? Are they
the expectations of your parents and friends? Are they the expectaions of
whatever training you may have had? We have neve made any amount of money
consistant with our skills. We have never made a living consistant with the
foregoing questions.
We have raised two excellent sons. We have traveled
extensively. We have had several automobiles. And we have fed
ourselves...usually with the help of a large garden wherever we have lived.
Our economic expectations have been consistant with our 'lifestyle'. By and
large we have enjoyed all 35 yrs of it. What more may one expect or demand
out of life?
Don & Isao.
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
___
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
Don & Isao Sanami Morrill
e-Mail:
tomsawyer on tue 9 jan 01
I'm hesitating to reply to this thread because I've come into pottery in my
later years after a successful practice as a radiation oncologist and an
elderlaw attorney. After being a hobbyist for a number of years, I decided
at the age of 65 [2 years ago in Feb] to devote my major effort towards
becoming a potter. In doing so I gave up the opportunity to make much
$$$$$$; my wife was/is supportive and has continued in her law practice with
our daughter; radiation oncology was a few years ago the highest paid
medical speciality. Whereas some of our kids have verbalized that if dad had
continued in his former capacities, he could be helping them financially
much more than he does. Well I say too bad for the kids; dad is happier than
anytime in his life. Whereas I might be driving a bigger better car if I had
continued my former occupations, I really don't want to go very much further
than to walk to my studio. I sometimes express embarassment to family
members because when I was young I most wanted to be a physician and it
was/is a wonderful experience [I volunteer at the local homeless shelter
twice a week]; when I was a bit older, I wanted most to go to law school
with my wife and it too was a wonderful experience; now its pottery. I
sometimes fell like a real hedonist having always done what I wanted and
enjoying all those years. My advice is to do what you most like; consider
the possibility of 2-3 or more careers. My oncology experience of 25 years
taught me that you can never depend on tomorrow.
Tom Sawyer
tsawyer@cfl.rr.com
artimater on thu 8 mar 01
Miriam said she makes a living:
with my
line=20
I included production work as one of the ways to make a living in =
clay...You could do even better if you hired ten poor people and chained =
them to the ram presses.....If you make a good life from $12 coffee =
cups, more power to ya!.....Picasso said it was pitiful for an artist to =
copy himself.....He is one of my heroes....I would sooner dig ditches
I also noticed the lack of numerals in your post....As I have said =
before, its takes about $50000 a year net for me to be comfy and that =
includes gnashing of teeth when I write that check to car insurance....I =
still say that it is near impossible to make any kind of living creating =
works of art in the present situation....I welcome any posting of the =
pertinent facts that disprove
Rose colored glasses may keep the budgets up for the art =
schools....but they don't do anything for the dedicated individual that =
wants to make a career of producing fine art.....Since this list is for =
such people I think it might be OK for them to get a taste of what a =
brick wall they are required to break down with their heads
artimator
artimator@earthlink.net=20
http://www.geocities.com/artimator/index.html=20
http://home.earthlink.net/~artimator/index.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/texasceramics
"I only indulge when I've seen a snake, so I keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
Lee Love on sun 11 mar 01
----- Original Message -----
From: "artimater"
> I included production work as one of the ways to make
> a living in clay...
>... I also noticed the lack of numerals in your post....As I
>have said before, its takes about $50000 a year net...
I remember Matt Metz talking about making a living at a workshop of
his I attended. He said that his profs at school promoted the idea that
selling "art" in galleries was the only way to make a living at clay. He
tried this for a while, but then realized that his teachers were subsidized by
their teaching. He moved into more functional work and found that it was a
better place to make a living.
We all have different "needs." About 17 years ago, I made more
money than I have in the recent past. I am much more "comfortable" living
more simply. This can be a very important aspect of the potter's
lifestyle. We can never "Have all we want", but we can "Want all we have."
>$12 coffee cups, more power to ya!.....Picasso said it was
> pitiful for an artist to copy himself.....He is one of my
> heroes....I would sooner dig ditches...
A $12 cup does not have to be a copy, any more than an abstract
painting is a copy of an abstract painting. "Original" art is often a copy
of the last work, especially if an artist has had some financial sucess.
> Since this list is for such people I think it might be OK for
> them to get a taste of what a brick wall they are required to
> break down with their heads
There are fewer "brick walls" in functional pottery: fewer hoops to
jump through, fewer butts to kiss, fewer gate keepers to have to please.
You just have to please the people that buy your work.
There is no war between functional pottery making and making "art."
Here in Japan, functional pottery IS ART. Do what you have to do because
you are moved to do it. No need to try and discredit what others are doing
to justify what you are doing.
--
One History One Future OneAkita
Lee Love http://oneakita.com
Mashiko JAPAN Ikiru@kami.com
Share Photos of your Akitas:
subscribe-akita-g@egroups.com
artimater on sun 11 mar 01
Lee Wrote:
>
> There is no war between functional pottery making and making
"art."
> Here in Japan, functional pottery IS ART. Do what you have to do
because
> you are moved to do it. No need to try and discredit what others =
are
doing
> to justify what you are doing.
I am not discrediting the work of other people and I can guarantee that
there is one place in Dallas that realizes that functional work can be =
fine
art.....You still didn't say anything about how to "make a living" doing
only fine art.....If you produce quite a bit just the papertrail is a =
full
time job....I've been trying for years to get the papertrail right
.....Besides my own work I also own thousands of pieces of American Art
Pottery.....Through crashes of various harddrives, zip disks, cdrw,
etc(smart people back up double)...I am just now getting it all in a =
form
that is semi permanent...
Another thing is that it is allmost impossible to be inspired
continually....When I hit a dead spot in one medium I usually switch to
another....and if that doesn't work I have been known to sit on my butt =
and
play "Age of Empires".....I guess this is where someone will have to say
inspiration has nothing to do with art????
BTW I don't think I've seen too many $12 coffee mugs that were =
about
art....Production maybe....lack of self esteem maybe....art?......no
My "Bues Bowls" are retail $50 .....I put that "outrageous" price =
on
them because I'm hoping that noone will buy one, because I and anyone =
who
has some know they are worth many times that
Hell I make my living at full time fine art...I know a little about
it....The living I make may not be easy to translate into $$$$$$, but I =
am
not dieing....I live a life of abundance
artimator
storm blowing over
artimator@earthlink.net
http://www.geocities.com/artimator/index.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~artimator/index.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/texasceramics
"i only indulge when i've seen a snake, so i keep a supply of =
indulgences
and snakes handy"
artimater on sun 11 mar 01
It is pretty tough to for my family of 5 to get by on 50k....We live =
in a north Dallas suburb....I own my house...the one next door rents for =
$1500 a month...
Kelly wrote:
As for copying yourself, I can't think of many jobs, from flipping =
burgers to selling stocks, that aren't the same old thing over and over. =
I repeated myself as a teacher, same lesson, different semester; =
variations on a theme. Teapots today, casseroles tomorrow. I don't think =
you can get away with dissing production potters, friend. You risk =
sounding like the art-snobs and elitists you rail against.
I have been an elitest as far as art goes for many years.....I'm not =
dissing production pots....Check out Marshall Pottery if you want to see =
some quality production pots.....If done with a little discretion and =
feeling they are a cut far above the Walmart crap of the world(Though =
often not priced that way). People can, and do, do anything they want =
to get by...but like Snail recently posted ...It would be better for the =
art world if half of those producing "art" would quit
=20
Kelly wrote:
Artimater, we've been around this thing before; fifty thou is a lot more =
than some folks need, including my family of five. Don't assume we all =
have the same measuring stick when it comes to what's "worth it". =
Compared to the way most folks on the planet live, I can't ignore the =
fact that my culture's definition of "basic needs" is a pretty big slice =
of the pie. Sadly, with the hypnotic hammering of marketing, most people =
define "enough" as a bit more than what they have now, no matter how =
much they have.
artimator
artimator@earthlink.net=20
http://www.geocities.com/artimator/index.html=20
http://home.earthlink.net/~artimator/index.html
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/texasceramics
"i only indulge when i've seen a snake, so i keep a supply of =
indulgences and snakes handy"
Debi Manduca on sun 11 mar 01
I visited a museum in Switzerland that was owned by a good friend of Picasso.
His sketches where displayed throughout the museum. I was surprised to find
out Picasso often sketched many pictures in one day. After seeing the
sketches I can tell you most looked the same. I think even he saw some art
in the idea of trying to reproduce similar pieces. Picasso made a
considerable number of pictures with the same very strange looking woman.
Debi
lela martens on mon 12 mar 01
And Picasso was a wizard at marketing, and people often didn`t cash his
cheques to keep his signature. Lela
>From: Debi Manduca
>Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>Subject: Re: making a living
>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:09:01 EST
>
>I visited a museum in Switzerland that was owned by a good friend of
>Picasso.
> His sketches where displayed throughout the museum. I was surprised to
>find
>out Picasso often sketched many pictures in one day. After seeing the
>sketches I can tell you most looked the same. I think even he saw some art
>in the idea of trying to reproduce similar pieces. Picasso made a
>considerable number of pictures with the same very strange looking woman.
>
>Debi
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
mudlark on mon 12 mar 01
artimater wrote:
> It is pretty tough to for my family of 5 to get by on 50k....We live in a north Dallas suburb....I own my house...the one next door rents for $1500 a month...
>
Family of 5 , 50K. Suburb outside Dallas. Yep it probably does get close at times.
Like I said with the "Perfect Day" post you make the choices of how you need to approach your art, or what ever you want to call it, with the lifestyle you choose.
On the other hand, I don't see how the reproduction of a piece such as a bowl decreases it's artistic expression. Sung dynasty? Unknown Craftsman? So pots are not beautiful if they were made in quantity. This goes along with the same thinking that art has to be big to be good.
elizabeth priddy on wed 15 aug 01
a few people discussing making a living recently
indecated that they need two incomes to live and theat
they can't pot full time and do all they need to do.
If you are inthis boat and you do not believe that you
could be "just a potter" and make it, think again.
it is about priorities. If it is important to you,
you can do it. Your kids don't need designer clothes
and you don't each need a seperate tube of toothpaste.
I could tell you some hard luck stories and success
stories about people who turned their consumer driven
lifestyles around and finally got around to doing what
they choose to do, but I won't.
Go to the library, where books are FREE, and get a
copy of THE TIGHTWAD GAZETTE, the big compendium. It
will tell you how and you will either listen or not.
But stop deluding yourself that you NEED an suv, new
car, new clothes, or those frozen dinners and chips
and cookies. Maybe what you NEED is a life worth
living, one that you choose to live, rather than one
where you "have to" work two jobs just get by.
=====
Elizabeth Priddy
epriddyclay@yahoo.com
www.angelfire.com/nc/clayworkshop
252-504-2622
PO Box 2342
Beaufort, NC 28516
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Penni Stoddart on wed 15 aug 01
elizabeth priddy wrote:
> a few people discussing making a living recently
> indecated that they need two incomes to live and theat
> they can't pot full time and do all they need to do.
>
> If you are inthis boat and you do not believe that you
> could be "just a potter" and make it, think again.
>
> it is about priorities. If it is important to you,
> you can do it. Your kids don't need designer clothes
> and you don't each need a seperate tube of toothpaste.
>
>
> I could tell you some hard luck stories and success
> stories about people who turned their consumer driven
> lifestyles around and finally got around to doing what
> they choose to do, but I won't.
It is not my intention to start the great debate here, however you struck a
chord and after thinking about it I just want to say that my choice is to
not "go without" just to do pottery. My husband earns a good wage yet it
covers just the mortgage (on our small 1 1/2 storey house), a car loan, and
the monthly bills. It does not put food on our table, gas in our car or
birthday and Christmas presents for the kids.
I choose not to go without cable t.v., the internet, the car etc. etc. I
don't think we are "consumer driven" as a family. We are fighting to keep
our heads above the water line. Most times I feel as if I am bailing the
boat out as fast as it is filling up.
I am also not good enough *yet* to go it alone as a production potter.
Someday I may be and then I will take the plunge. It will probably be after
my two have done post secondary education (they are 7 and 2) so yes I will
have a long time to practice my skills.
For those people who have "done without" to be what they truly want to be
good on you! It is just not MY choice to do so.
Respectfully,
~~~~
Penni Stoddart of Penelope's Pots
President, Artisans London (Ontario, Canada)
It takes fewer muscles to smile then to frown....
and fewer still to ignore someone completely. =o)
John Jensen on wed 15 aug 01
When I first turned to pottery it was with the idea that it was possibly a
good way to make a living...that I could develop a valuable skill and use it
in the market to earn money. I was encouraged by articles in Ceramics
Monthly magazine in which certain potters said that they had turned to
pottery because it was the only way they could make a living and still be
around for their children. And I haven't been disappointed. Pottery is so
far allowing me a more comfortable living than anything else I've ever
attempted. And yes I do send my daughter to private school and yes my house
and cars are paid for and yes I have a tube of toothpaste in each of my two
bathrooms. All paid for with pottery. Granted, I have not so far been
selling a lot of my so called artistic work, I've compromised to the mass
market and production. But I am doing pottery, I'm my own boss, I work in
my own space, and I make a good living. In my ample free time I am able to
concentrate on following the inspiration of my artistic inclinations. I
hope one day my art makes me enough money to live on...perhaps when it is
mature and developed enough to stand up to critical scrutiny.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery, Annapolis, Md.
mudbug@toad.net www.Toadhouse.com
Bill Merrill on tue 11 may 10
Mel is correct about colleges. The colleges teach art and during a =3D
undergraduate and graduate program no classes on finance or how to make =
=3D
making a living is discussed. Colleges undergraduate programs teach =3D
you how to make a portfolio, and usually it is so the student can get =3D
into graduate school. The normal thinking is probably centered around =3D
getting a teaching position at the college level after graduation. . =3D
Dave Shaner, a wonderful potter said that if what is going to be =3D
produced is just more teachers, who's going to make the pots? Dave was =3D
one of the hardest working potters I have had the pleasure to know. He =3D
glaze fired his 60 cubic foot stoneware kiln every two weeks. When you =3D
work with that kind of dedication and have the ability and stamina to =3D
produce good wook, week after week, that's what I would call with great =3D
respect a potter with ethics.
=3D20
I have taught at the college level since 1966 and I have yet to see a =3D
art program have classes on life after school.
=3D20
Bill Merrill
=3D20
I'm just giving my point of view......no discourse is necessary....
Lee Love on tue 11 may 10
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Bill Merrill wrote:
> Mel is correct about colleges. =3DA0The colleges teach art and during a u=
nd=3D
ergraduate and graduate >program no classes on =3DA0finance or how to make =
ma=3D
king a living is discussed.
Studio arts are not unique in this. I received no finance classes as
a non-studio arts undergrad or grad student. That's simply the
university.
This is simply a red herring argument.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Maurice Weitman on wed 12 may 10
At 22:36 -0500 on 5/11/10, Lee Love wrote:
>Studio arts are not unique in this. I received no finance classes as
>a non-studio arts undergrad or grad student. That's simply the
>university.
>
> This is simply a red herring argument.!
Nice of you to summarize your own message in one pithy sentence. Well done=
.
Perhaps next time you might simply refrain from posting instead.
Regards,
Maurice
Eric Hansen on wed 12 may 10
Bill: In my senior year with Joe Zeller, quite a bit of this was taught and
discussed. Over time I have come to appreciate many of the things he touche=
d
bases with. Another was the creation of a class that focussed on mold-makin=
g
techniques. Also he brought in ceramic computer programs, which in my case
led to using online resources (and ClayArt, ClayCraft, CeramicArtsDaily
discussion groups). A bit of geology. He has a slight tendency to fire
dead-beat instructors. He was Dean of Arts and Sciences at Idaho, but now
teaches the clay program there and the summer institute in China with West
Virginia U. The list of things goes on and on that contradicts the current
argument. It all depends on who you took clay from. One of the things Joe
told worried parents about their kids enrolling in ceramics - "They will
never be unemployed"
h a n s e n
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 10:25 PM, Bill Merrill wrote:
> Mel is correct about colleges. The colleges teach art and during a
> undergraduate and graduate program no classes on finance or how to make
> making a living is discussed. Colleges undergraduate programs teach you
> how to make a portfolio, and usually it is so the student can get into
> graduate school. The normal thinking is probably centered around getting=
a
> teaching position at the college level after graduation. . Dave Shaner,=
a
> wonderful potter said that if what is going to be produced is just more
> teachers, who's going to make the pots? Dave was one of the hardest work=
ing
> potters I have had the pleasure to know. He glaze fired his 60 cubic foo=
t
> stoneware kiln every two weeks. When you work with that kind of dedicati=
on
> and have the ability and stamina to produce good wook, week after week,
> that's what I would call with great respect a potter with ethics.
>
> I have taught at the college level since 1966 and I have yet to see a ar=
t
> program have classes on life after school.
>
> Bill Merrill
>
> I'm just giving my point of view......no discourse is necessary....
>
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