kevin_hulmes@uk.ibm.com on wed 19 feb 97
-------------- Original Message -------------------
>Now, general is enough for ME, but I'm asking an instructor at the
>college I go to to take our light blue stain off the shelves, since it
>contains a good amount of manganese dioxide, and the stain is often
>overused, abused, left dry and flaky in places it should never be left
>dry and flaky, on hands, breathed in at every opportunity, and my guilty
>concience can't take it anymore. I want him to get rid of it. However,
>he wants the Specific Facts.
---------------------------------------------------
Oh well! I knew the time would come when I would get the urge to be
provocative, and that time is now!
I see this message as the consequence of an unbalanced presentation of
the dangers of toxic materials.
It is essential to instil fear of the careless use or abuse of toxic
substances, and human nature is such that we have to instil more fear
than the average person needs in order to reach those that are more
resistant. If we go too far, we get this kind of response from the more
receptive people, who are so frightened that they want to ban their use.
So, no more managanese, barium, cobalt, chrome, copper ...... and all
pots will be white or brown!
So, while instilling fear, it is equally essential to educate people in
the management and handling of such materials through all stages of
their use. They will then be happy to use them with proper caution and
free from terror, and the initial FEAR will mature into RESPECT.
The problem here IMHO seems to be that neither fear nor management
education are in evidence with respect to this particular stain.
Yes, the situation described is dangerous. No, the solution is not to
remove all toxic materials (of which manganese dioxide is only one) from
student access. The solution lies in proper materials management and
EDUCATION, including perhaps, of the college staff.
Workers in chemistry laboratories are often required to use substances
which are so dangerous that they have been used in chemical warfare, or
are rapidly absorbed on contact with the skin and kill from within. They
are TRAINED to respect these substances, and to handle them correctly.
Potters should also be trained to respect and correctly manage the toxic
substances they may encounter in their work.
I KNOW the following is an over-simplification, but it demonstrates the
principle ......
Your home contains many dangerous items; knives, tools, disinfectant,
bleach, drain cleaner, pesticides, solvents, inflammable materials.
Should you throw them out, or treat them with the respect they deserve?
I suspect you keep them out of reach of small children etc, and
carefully follow the instructions on the container. That is, you RESPECT
them, HANDLE them appropriately, and MANAGE them (including ACCESS
CONTROL) effectively.
There will always be people who know the dangers, know how to manage the
materials, but choose to ignore them. This is where Darwin comes in!
*--------------------------------------------------
* INTERNET: kevin_hulmes@uk.ibm.com
* Phone/Fax/Msgs (0)1926 887003 (UK)
*__________________________________________________
JULIE ATWOOD on thu 20 feb 97
Maybe the time wasn't now. You're barking up the wrong tree with
this one. Let me reassure you, I am not someone scared into a corner,
whimpering, at the thought of manganese dioxide, barium, lead or
cadmium. I have learned a healthy respect for the chemicals I work with,
from barium to the clay dust. However, you must remember not everyone
that works with the clay is a potter. Not everyone that takes a few
hours out of a week to come into a classroom and do an assignment really
takes to heart the education they recieve. We have already done our part
in instilling the instruction...but in many ways, the students have not
done their part in paying attention. It continually frustrates me to see
the students today who don't listen, and by doing so, never learn, and
make the instruction harder for everyone involved.
Not only does it frustrate, but it could be harmful. I can't
have on my hands and concience the fact that the possibility could be one
of these students could someday have an illness from the chemicals I
knowingly put on the shelf.
Maybe it's an undue consideration, maybe I should be more callous
and say, "well, if they don't pay attention, it's their own da** fault"?
I have a hard time doing that.
I'm not someone bent on taking every interesting chemical off the
shelves so all the glazes are bland and uninteresting. I'm not
advocating the ban of manganese dioxide from every studio in Washington
state, or across the country, or worldwide. I just want to take this one
oxide off the shelf in this one studio, to protect those who wouldn't
protect themselves. It's not even like this is an indespensable oxide,
or one that could not be easily duplicated...WITHOUT manganese dioxide.
All I asked for was the cold hard facts on manganese dioxide, for
my information, and for others. Maybe that's all I should have said.
Thanks for your input.
Julie (respectful of manganese dioxide in Seattle)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> Oh well! I knew the time would come when I would get the urge to be
> provocative, and that time is now!
>
> I see this message as the consequence of an unbalanced presentation of
> the dangers of toxic materials.
>
> It is essential to instil fear of the careless use or abuse of toxic
> substances, and human nature is such that we have to instil more fear
> than the average person needs in order to reach those that are more
> resistant. If we go too far, we get this kind of response from the more
> receptive people, who are so frightened that they want to ban their use.
> So, no more managanese, barium, cobalt, chrome, copper ...... and all
> pots will be white or brown!
>
> So, while instilling fear, it is equally essential to educate people in
> the management and handling of such materials through all stages of
> their use. They will then be happy to use them with proper caution and
> free from terror, and the initial FEAR will mature into RESPECT.
>
> The problem here IMHO seems to be that neither fear nor management
> education are in evidence with respect to this particular stain.
> Yes, the situation described is dangerous. No, the solution is not to
> remove all toxic materials (of which manganese dioxide is only one) from
> student access. The solution lies in proper materials management and
> EDUCATION, including perhaps, of the college staff.
>
> Workers in chemistry laboratories are often required to use substances
> which are so dangerous that they have been used in chemical warfare, or
> are rapidly absorbed on contact with the skin and kill from within. They
> are TRAINED to respect these substances, and to handle them correctly.
> Potters should also be trained to respect and correctly manage the toxic
> substances they may encounter in their work.
>
> I KNOW the following is an over-simplification, but it demonstrates the
> principle ......
>
> Your home contains many dangerous items; knives, tools, disinfectant,
> bleach, drain cleaner, pesticides, solvents, inflammable materials.
> Should you throw them out, or treat them with the respect they deserve?
> I suspect you keep them out of reach of small children etc, and
> carefully follow the instructions on the container. That is, you RESPECT
>
>
>
>
>
>
> them, HANDLE them appropriately, and MANAGE them (including ACCESS
> CONTROL) effectively.
>
> There will always be people who know the dangers, know how to manage the
> materials, but choose to ignore them. This is where Darwin comes in!
>
> *--------------------------------------------------
> * INTERNET: kevin_hulmes@uk.ibm.com
> * Phone/Fax/Msgs (0)1926 887003 (UK)
> *__________________________________________________
>
ret on fri 21 feb 97
Julie I fully agree with your answer to Kevin Hulmes regarding educating
the potters. Sometimes all the knowledge in the world does not protect
you either. I KNEW manganese was highly toxic. I wore a dust mask, I wore
gloves when mixing and applying glazes, fired only outdoors. Nowhere in
the
warnings does it point out that the glaze fumes, even outdoors, can get y
you. One windgust at the right moment in the wrong direction can do it.
The fumes are by far the worst danger, even just to onlookers who would
not usually wear a mask.
Well, it got me, pretty badly. For six years I did not know if I would
ever be able to function again. Then I wrote it all up as a warning to
others potters,
even just ONE other potter. It was published only in Canada, contact
magazine, but Monona will send out copies of the article upon request.
ELKE BLODGETT email: eiblodge@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
12 Grantham Place
St. Albert, AB T8N 0W8
403 (458-3445); 403 (727-2395)
Sam Tomich on fri 21 feb 97
Julie,
Don't worry about those who are defensive about what you are up to,
they're just ignorant of your particular situation, and think it applies
to them for some unknown reason.
My professor is just starting to listen to me about manganese, barium,
etc. The only thing he stays away from is lead and the whole class is
working in decidedly unhealthy ways. He's a great man, just older and
out of the mainstream of potters. He warns students against stirring up
a lot of clay dust, because he has about a half a lung left. He has a
lot of health problems besides this and I'm sure it's the environment of
the clay studio. I am worried about him more than those that stay
around for one semester. Worse still, I think, is that many potters
have been thoroughly inspired to do great things, all at the cost of
their health, because of this ignorance, and will go out and work in
clay for who knows how long before they get this information. We are
really fortunate to be in touch with the resources we are.
I am off for one semester setting up my home studio, but when I go back
next semester I'll be wearing gloves & wrist supports whenever possible,
a respirator when working with dry materials and goggles when necessary.
They're gonna think I am crazy and paranoid, but there will be some that
ask questions.
I've only been at this for a year and a half and so it's easier for me
to be teachable. I've tried to tell those who've been doing this for a
few years and they think I'm nuts. Someone told me we need manganese in
our bodies and was disgusted at my ignorance and paranoia.
Sometimes it takes a while for people to change, and if what they've
been doing has been harmful to others, it can take longer for them to
accept and admit and make necessary changes.
kevin_hulmes@uk.ibm.com on sat 22 feb 97
Triggered by the first note in this thread, I posted a general note on
management of toxic chemicals. In response, Julie Atwood wrote:
< You're barking up the wrong tree with this one. Let me reassure you,
I am not someone scared into a corner, whimpering, at the thought of
manganese dioxide, barium, lead or cadmium. > snip
< We have already done our part in instilling the instruction...but in
many ways, the students have not done their part in paying
attention. > snip
< I just want to take this one oxide off the shelf in this one studio,
to protect those who wouldn't protect themselves. >
I do not apologise for my post (which has been building up in me for
some time), but I DO apologise to Julie for unintentionally, and
unjustifiably upsetting her. I thought from her first post that she was
a student on the referenced course, and was meeting resistance from
the staff to safety issues she raised. As a proactive and caring member
of staff, however, she was naturally offended by the sentence " The
solution lies in proper materials management and EDUCATION,
including perhaps, of the college staff". I withdraw the last 6 words of
that sentence. My intention was, and still is, to support her - not
attack her.
I stand by the rest of the note, and although I sympathise with Julie's
problem, I don't think withdrawal of the stain is the answer. Why? ...
Because removal of this one implies that it's OK to carry on being
careless with the others! Better to control access to all stains, and to
all known toxic substances, if they are difficult to train. That
is, make the students ask for them and return them promptly, and you can
monitor their use. If and when the class is ready, you can allow free
access. If they don't learn respect for dry dust and toxic materials in
the classroom, how will you protect them when they make pots at home?
Materials management and education is a complex area. This only
partly addresses one small part. For me, the fundamental goals for
achievement in this education are RESPECT for the materials we use, and
SKILLS TRANSFER IN HANDLING them.
At the "end of the day", even if this is achieved 100%, you will still
get people who choose not to apply those skills. They will say that is
their right, and maybe it is... but not in the classroom, and not with
their customers. Those of us who smoke tobacco, accept the
danger that goes with it. In both cases, it's tomorrow's problem .......
isn't it?
......Kevin
*--------------------------------------------------
* INTERNET: kevin_hulmes@uk.ibm.com
* Phone/Fax/Msgs (0)1926 887003 (UK)
*__________________________________________________
JULIE ATWOOD on sat 22 feb 97
Thanks for all the replies...As it stands now...all I had to do was visit
http://mail.odsnet.com/TRIFacts and grab the official manganese dioxide
fact sheet with all the scary worst case stuff on it, and my instructor
turned really pale and said "Wow. Brain damage. OK. That's enough for
me!". However, I am very interested in the rest of the responses I have
been recieving. I try to handle clay and associated chemicals
responsibly, but from the things I have been reading, it's apparent I am
not even responsible ENOUGH. As I said to someone else, I love clay
passionately, but I also want to love it 20 years from now!! I have this
funny thing about wanting to be MOSTLY healthy when I'm older, you know,
it's kind of silly, but gee. ;) I really appreciate all the responses I
got, from everyone, those who at first glance didn't appear to support me
included, because it made me take a closer look at my own habits, my
friend's habits, and I hope it made others take a look at their habits as
well.
As a friend and I were discussing loading kilns, talking about
the back aches we go through in an effort to place the shelves without
hurting the ware, he commented, "We're so careful about the ware that we
end up hurting ourselves..." and twenty years from now, I wonder what
condition I'll be in if I continue my current habits...
I have to admit, I am generally new to clay, having only done
this a few years, and am only now trying to reconcile the idea that I
WILL be doing this for many many more years yet to come, and trying to
figure out HOW I am going to do this for so many years, and live to see
more of it.
I notice a lot of discussion here about glazes, firing,
techniques of this and that, but I'd really like to hear about how the
rest of you handle your chemicals, how you load your kilns without
hurting yourselves, how many precautions everyone REALLY takes in
practice (rather than theory).
Sorry for the longish nature of this, but now my curiosities are
going in high gear. I would really like to be a safe potter, and I'd
like to hear how you all do it. :) Thanks SO much!! I appreciate all of
your time and help. I've loved clayart for over a year now, thanks for
everything!! :)
Julie in Seattle
(ack! Someone turned the heat up! ::gasp:: Is it... SPRING?)
On Fri, 21 Feb 1997, Sam Tomich wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Julie,
>
> Don't worry about those who are defensive about what you are up to,
> they're just ignorant of your particular situation, and think it applies
> to them for some unknown reason.
>
> My professor is just starting to listen to me about manganese, barium,
> etc. The only thing he stays away from is lead and the whole class is
> working in decidedly unhealthy ways. He's a great man, just older and
> out of the mainstream of potters. He warns students against stirring up
> a lot of clay dust, because he has about a half a lung left. He has a
> lot of health problems besides this and I'm sure it's the environment of
> the clay studio. I am worried about him more than those that stay
> around for one semester. Worse still, I think, is that many potters
> have been thoroughly inspired to do great things, all at the cost of
> their health, because of this ignorance, and will go out and work in
> clay for who knows how long before they get this information. We are
> really fortunate to be in touch with the resources we are.
>
> I am off for one semester setting up my home studio, but when I go back
> next semester I'll be wearing gloves & wrist supports whenever possible,
> a respirator when working with dry materials and goggles when necessary.
> They're gonna think I am crazy and paranoid, but there will be some that
> ask questions.
>
> I've only been at this for a year and a half and so it's easier for me
> to be teachable. I've tried to tell those who've been doing this for a
> few years and they think I'm nuts. Someone told me we need manganese in
> our bodies and was disgusted at my ignorance and paranoia.
>
> Sometimes it takes a while for people to change, and if what they've
> been doing has been harmful to others, it can take longer for them to
> accept and admit and make necessary changes.
>
Robbie Hunsinger on sat 22 feb 97
------------------
Sam, you are right on the money, my friend. I'm a potter and instructor who
started in '78. I have steadily found many practices I learned in a =
sensibly
run
----------studio from that era to now be anywhere from too casual to simply
dangerous. Meanwhile, don't give up on us dinosaurs - some of us are =
educable.
Kelly Kessler
From: Sam Tomich=5BSMTP:aphesis=40interpac.net=5D
Sent: Friday, February 21, 1997 8:18 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list CLAYART
Subject: Re: Managanese Dioxide, and then some...
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Julie,
Don't worry about those who are defensive about what you are up to,
they're just ignorant of your particular situation, and think it applies
to them for some unknown reason.=3Csnip=3E
Sometimes it takes a while for people to change, and if what they've
been doing has been harmful to others, it can take longer for them to
accept and admit and make necessary changes.
David Donica on sun 23 feb 97
Hello Julie. I mix glazes in 5 gallon buckets. After putting in the
requisite amount of water, I put the lid on the bucket and when adding
chemicals, just crack the lid enough to get the material in and then close
the lid, as this makes a lot of dust. I wear a Binks respirator at all
times and never touch the glaze chemicals with my bare hands. Weather
permitting, I try to mix glazes outside, still wearing the respirator.I
never store chemicals in paper bags to avoid the possibility of the bag
breaking or ripping, which would result in a major dust cloud. I transfer
all chemicals into more durable containers- this is always done outside. As
for kiln loading, that's another (sad) story. I fired my new gas kiln for
the first time last December and was devastated psychologically when I
realized that I could not place the shelves because it created new
dimensions in back pain for me. My husband does it but his back isn't much
better so I envision in the future, hiring young, strong college students
to do it.I'm also sure that there are some young potters in my area who
would trade some labor for kiln space. I couldn't afford a car kiln but I
think that's the answer. My father is a retired metal shop teacher and he
welded up some leg extentions for my electric wheel and this past year I
learned (it's not hard) to throw standing up. What a god send- no back
pain. I don't think I would have been able to continue throwing had I not
done that. Hope this helps. Best wishes for safe potting.
Maggie Shepard
FireWorks Pottery
Mt. Shasta, Calif.
Tony Hansen on sun 23 feb 97
> I KNEW manganese was highly toxic. I wore a dust mask, I wore
> gloves when mixing and applying glazes, fired only outdoors. Nowhere in the
> warnings does it point out that the glaze fumes, even outdoors, can get y
> you.
I saw a glaze recipe on this forum the other day with more than 30% manganese!
As usual it was 'naked', no documentation.
--
=================================================================
Tony Hansen, IMC - Get INSIGHT 5 beta or The Magic of Fire II at
http://digitalfire.com or http://www.ceramicsoftware.com
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