WeinhardtA@aol.com on wed 10 apr 96
In a recent post about pizza stones, Phyllis Greenhouse warns of the "proven
menace" of manganese for potters. Could someone expound on this as I am
totally unaware of the dangers of manganese. When mixing glazes or using raw
oxides, I almost always use mask or gloves and I have presumed that this has
protected me but Phyllis also alludes to the danger manganese poses to the
user of ware containing this mineral. Help! Monona are you still out there??
Anyone else??? Thanks!
Albert Weinhardt
99 Bowls of Tea on the Wall Pottery
WeinhardtA@aol.com
Monona on sat 13 apr 96
MANGANESE
Message for Albert Weinhardt: I have Elke Blodgett's long paper
on manganese, I can copy material from my book on the metal and
send some articles about it from our newsletter. Send your snail
mail address in my e-mail and I'll put a packet of stuff
together.
In general, manganese is capable of causing neurological
problems. At high doses the disease it causes is called
"manganese Parkinsonism" because of its resemblance to this
disease. There also have been early indicators of neurological
damage in workers exposed well below what is allowed currently in
industry. OSHA is proposing to lower the limit.
We all need to be especially careful about manganese because we
will soon be carrying higher body burdens of it from gasoline
additives. Manganese is already added to almost all gasoline
sold in Canada. It is starting to be used in the US as well.
This means that the lead dust along the roadsides from the old
lead gas will be replaced by manganese dust.
EPA tried to block the use of manganese gasoline additives due to
their toxicity, but industry said EPA didn't have the data to
PROVE there was going to be a problem. This is such a weird way
of thinking. We should all ask why industry doesn't have to
PROVE there will not be a problem before introducing yet another
toxic component into everyone's life.
The higher our body burdens are from gasoline sources, the less
it will take from pottery to get into trouble.
Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist with Arts, Crafts and Theater
Safety
art_selsor@vicuna.emcmt.edu on sat 13 apr 96
Hans Coper's beautiful manganese-colored pots are what caused his
debilatating illness. Monona provides a great service by disseminating
this vital information to potters. On the subject, why are people so
excited about the "Tizzie Glaze" with high lead content.I had to rid
our shop of lead, chrome and barium years ago.Marcia Selsor in Montana
Janet H Walker on thu 18 apr 96
Monona --
I have your book and I've read the metal and mineral sections and I
remain pretty perplexed about how to apply the information in there
to making decisions about practice in my own studio. From the
questions I've seen, it seems as if many people share my confusion!
Some people seem to deal with it by avoiding anything that they've
seen described as toxic, for example, not using clay bodies that
have manganese speckles because "manganese is toxic". From how I
interpret what I've read, this seems like overkill (the specks are
granular not dust or fume, no?), but I don't have any way to know
which interpretation is correct. Other people deal with the
complexities of interpretation by ignoring the whole issue of
materials safety altogether. Somewhere in between lies prudent
practice I assume. But any advice on how to make decisions on
individual questions?
I wish there were a book that dealt with this from the point of view
of the potter, not the point of view of the chemical!! It would
really be great to have a video showing "poor practice" and "good
practice" for a bunch of standard studio activities, especially the
stuff that everyone has to figure out for themselves based on their
local working area, like cleanup. (If I don't put glaze washup
waste down the sink what the heck do I do with it? I might guess
that pouring it into the gravel driveway is a very bad idea but
maybe it depends on whether I'm using chrome and manganese or just
Albany slip.)
I'm sure you're very familiar with the kind of frustration I'm
talking about. Add to this the potential for lawsuits and I can
imagine that no one would want to publish recommendations that were
anything but alarmist. That said, can you recommend any materials
on safe studio "how to"?
Jan Walker
Fun & Functional Arts
Cambridge MA USA
Pat Sherwood on sun 15 dec 96
I've been following this manganese question with interest because of the
story Siglinda Scarpa told us about her experiences with it in Italy.
Siglinda is a sculptor, and had been working on a large commission
requiring black clay. Manganese had been added to the clay body to
provide the black color, and she had been working on it BAREHANDED for
several weeks. One day she got up from her work and started to turn
left -- but found herself going RIGHT instead! She could no longer make
her body do what she intended. She got medical help immediately, and
the cause of the central nervous system problems was traced to the
manganese.
This was her first clue about the toxicity of manganese. After a couple
weeks, she says, things straightened out for her, but she says she
learned a VERY TOUGH LESSON, and is adamant about passing this
information along to others who work in clay. She also mentioned that
she understood that manganese poisoning may have been the cause, or one
of the causes, of Hans Coper's death. (Hans Coper was a contemporary of
Lucie Rie).
Anyway, I'm a believer -- as far as I'm concerned, manganese is capable
of being absorbed through the skin as well as in vapor OR fume form! I
use it, but I am very careful with it.
Pat Sherwood, in Wyoming, where it's SNOWING today.
patsher@trib.com
Lisa on tue 17 dec 96
Here is the reply from Christine at Kickwheel re: manganese in their
claybodies.
Kickwheel@aol.com wrote:
>
> Lisa.
> The amount of manganese in the Black Raven and the Grey Speck is very, very
> low. I suspect that Ms. Sherwood's clay body in Italy was loaded excessivly.
> There is no way of really knowing all of a story like this.
> The Black Raven relies heavily on a complicated blend of several irons to
> produce the black fired color. If you will notice, the wet color of the clay
> is a deep terra cotta, not a dense grey or black that heavy manganese would
> produce. Both clay bodies have less than 1 percent manganese in them. The
> Grey Speck's larger particles present even less hazard. The Chocolate
> contains no manganese at all.
> Common sense handling, such as you are doing should prevent any problem.
> However, we are all different, that's why we make so many clays to choose
> from. I know of no supplier in the USA that is manufacturing a "heavily
> loaded" manganese body that would cause any neurological harm.
> Christine
> KPS
Shirl LeVesconte on wed 19 feb 97
>Julie wrote: Can someone tell me what books or magazineshave detailed informat
any of you have any detailed information.
Julie, You should contact Monona Rossol, Industrial Hygienist with Arts,
Crafts and Theater Safety (E-mail: 75054.2542@compuserve.com). She is an
authority on this stuff and will send you lots of good authoritative info
on any toxic material. Elke Blodgett did a stunning article on manganese
poisoning (her personal experience and what she then learned about the
dangers of manganese). Monona will send you a copy if you ask. The
article also has an extensive bibliography.
Hang in there Julie. You are right about the need for caution in the
ceramic classroom. It is the place where it is most needed, since so
many of the people working there are new to clay and totally unaware of
the hazards.
IMHO your instructor should be aware and taking precautions -- not
sending a student out to prove the case.
Good luck. Shirl
Janet H Walker on tue 28 apr 98
Amy -- You wrote with your concerns about manganese. (What is it
with cats and clay anyhow? I have to remember to cover any water to
keep the cats from taking a wee sip on their way through to
somewhere else.)
Find Monona Rossol's book "Keeping Claywork Safe and Legal". She
has the most thorough presentation I've seen on what toxicity
means for the various materials we work with.
There are three basic ways to get exposed to anything: inhalation
(breathing dusts or fumes), ingestion (eating it), and absorption
(through the skin). For adults, inhalation is the major exposure
avenue to worry about. For children, ingestion is an equally big
concern. In addition, children react differently to toxins than
adults do, because of differences in their metabolism and the fact
that they are still growing. Exposures/doses that would not affect
an adult might indeed affect a child. (e.g. adults can tolerate a
higher blood level of lead than children.)
For our materials, we have two basic forms: solid and fume. The
solids can be more or less finely divided. If they are very finely
divided, they are dust. The term dust has a technical definition
here -- a particular range of particle sizes. The dusts of most
concern are the ones you can't see.
Worrisome exposure to manganese is as fumes during kiln firing and
as dust. The granular particles that you get in the speckled clay
bodies are not dust and they don't fall apart into dust just by
sitting around. They have to be ground into dust. Unfortunately I
don't recall the correspondence between mesh size and microns. Dust
is defined as a range of sizes in microns whereas the materials we
buy are generally described in mesh sizes. It is my understanding
that the powdered manganese we buy contains particles in the dust
range but that the granular manganese described as 60-80 mesh does
not.
Toxicity is not a simple subject. It is not enough to remember "Me
Jane; Manganese Bad". You have to know "why bad" and "how much bad"
for almost everything we work with. And there are relative scales
of "bad".
Life is really an exercise in risk management. You have to know
enough to choose the relative level of risk that you are
intellectually comfortable with. "More or less risky than a
charcoal broiled hamburger" might be one way of expressing risk.
The govt in fact strictly regulates some toxic compounds that have
turned out to be LESS risky than charcoal broiled hamburgers. One
of the researchers in the environmental field has taken to trying to
describe various risks as pack-a-day equivalents just to give people
some everyday scale for thinking about things in terms of. But once
yer machinery of regulation is in place, it is hard for followup
data to have much of an impact on it, one way or another. (Take
cigarettes as one interesting example. But I digress.)
As far as the manganese goes, it is very clear that the stuff should
be used with educated caution and precautions. Elke and others have
written eloquently on the topic of what happens when the worst
happens. But there are many steps in between limited careful use
and major exposure. We all have to learn as much as we can, keep
the kitties out of the studio or at least out of the glaze buckets,
and think very carefully about the amount of exposure that young
children get and what they get exposed to.
It is as important not to panic as it is not to be unconcerned.
Hmm. Maybe that is too many convoluted negatives of negatives. Try
again! It is important not to panic; it is important to investigate
everything and learn enough to be confident about making your own
judgments.
Regards,
Jan Walker
Cambridge MA USA
Edouard Bastarache on mon 26 oct 98
Hello all,
Manganese compounds used by potters
are inorganic , like manganese dioxide, oxide
and manganese carbonate; they do not
penetrate the body via the skin as
compared to some organic compounds.
Metallic applications account for most
manganese consumption, with about 90%
used in steelmaking.
Manganese is an essential mineral for
humans and animals.It is necessary for
normal bone formation.It has been estimated
that a normal 70-kg man has a total of 12mg to
20 mg in his body.
Inhalation of dust or fume is the major route
of entry in occupational manganese poisonning.
Also inhaled large particles are ingested after mucociliary
clearance from the lungs.Gastrointestinal absorption is
generally low (10%).
Tricarbonyls (organic) of manganese can be
absorbed by the skin.
The primary target organs of manganese toxicity
are the brain and the lungs.
The toxicity to the brain is manifested as a chronic
disorder of the central nervous system resembling
Parkinsonism.
Toxicity to the lungs is manifested as increased
susceptibility to bronchitis or, in more severe cases,
manganic pneumonia.
Since only inorganic manganese compounds are
used by potters we shall not discuss the organic
ones.
I have heard of 2 cases of Parkinson like syndrome
among unskilled workers making clays and glazes
for a local pottery supplies store (Montreal) that
happened in the 70's or 80's before Quebec passed its laws
in Occupational Health and Safety.I was personnally
involved in this process.
The important thing is your exposure to inorganic
manganese, it may vary if you are a pottery
factory worker, a teacher, a full-time studio potter
or a part-time.It certainly depends also on the amount
used over a given period of time in clays and glazes.
In the wet state, as in moist clays and glazes, these
compounds are certainly much less hazardous than
as dust.Factories can afford the monitoring of manganese
exposure but it is not the same for artists and craftpersons.
So good house keeping of your studio is important.
Avoidance of processes generating unnecessary dust
is also important and the wearing of an approved
dust mask when the exposure seems hazardous.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache M.D. (Occupational & Environmental Medicine)
in "La Belle Province"
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
Ref. Occupational Medicine,Carl Zenz & al.
Occupational & Environmental Medicine, Joseph Ladoue & al.
Bill Williams on wed 13 jan 99
Some of us have been thowing this question around for a couple of days. Is =
the
manganese in black clay bodies toxic enough to be absorbed through the skin.=
My
supplier says =22no=22. The box the clay comes in says it has been tested =
and it is
safe. Others think maybe this is not so, and have stopped using it for this
reason. Does anyone know for sure? Connie (billwms=40fn.net)
Louis Katz on thu 14 jan 99
I tell my students that if they ever even think that maybe they should pull the
fire alarm because of a fire they should just pull it. Figure out if it was the
right decision later. IMHO I would pull the alarm on this one. I would do this
regardless of the skin absorption issue.
No studio is dust free.
Louis
--
Louis Katz
lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
NCECA Director At Large
Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts Webmaster (512) 994-5987
Edouard Bastarache on fri 15 jan 99
Hello all,
Manganese compounds used by potters
are inorganic , like manganese dioxide, oxide
and manganese carbonate; they do not
penetrate the body via the skin as
compared to some organic compounds.
Metallic applications account for most
manganese consumption, with about 90%
used in steelmaking.
Manganese is an essential mineral for
humans and animals.It is necessary for
normal bone formation.It has been estimated
that a normal 70-kg man has a total of 12mg to
20 mg in his body.
Inhalation of dust or fume is the major route
of entry in occupational manganese poisonning.
Also inhaled large particles are ingested after mucociliary
clearance from the lungs.Gastrointestinal absorption is
generally low (10%).
Tricarbonyls (organic) of manganese can be
absorbed by the skin.
The primary target organs of manganese toxicity
are the brain and the lungs.
The toxicity to the brain is manifested as a chronic
disorder of the central nervous system resembling
Parkinsonism.
Toxicity to the lungs is manifested as increased
susceptibility to bronchitis or, in more severe cases,
manganic pneumonia.
Since only inorganic manganese compounds are
used by potters we shall not discuss the organic
ones.
I have heard of 2 cases of Parkinson like syndrome
among unskilled workers making clays and glazes
for a local pottery supplies store (Montreal) that
happened in the 70's or 80's before Quebec passed its laws
in Occupational Health and Safety.I was personnally
involved in this process.
The important thing is your exposure to inorganic
manganese, it may vary if you are a pottery
factory worker, a teacher, a full-time studio potter
or a part-time.It certainly depends also on the amount
used over a given period of time in clays and glazes.
In the wet state, as in moist clays and glazes, these
compounds are certainly much less hazardous than
as dust.Factories can afford the monitoring of manganese
exposure but it is not the same for artists and craftpersons.
So good house keeping of your studio is important.
Avoidance of processes generating unnecessary dust
is also important and the wearing of an approved
dust mask when the exposure seems hazardous.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
----------
> De : Louis Katz
> A : CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Objet : Re: Manganese
> Date : 14 janvier, 1999 13:17
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
> I tell my students that if they ever even think that maybe they should
pull the
> fire alarm because of a fire they should just pull it. Figure out if it
was the
> right decision later. IMHO I would pull the alarm on this one. I would do
this
> regardless of the skin absorption issue.
> No studio is dust free.
>
> Louis
>
> --
> Louis Katz
> lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
> NCECA Director At Large
> Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts Webmaster (512)
994-5987
Liz Willoughby on sat 12 feb 00
Hello clayarters,
Since I received the last issue of Studio Potter, David Shaner and
his disease has been on my mind. He is unable to work now because of
Amyotrophic Lateral Disease (ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease). This is
the same disease that killed Hans Coper. Hans rubbed manganese into
his clay to get the surfaces that he wanted. David Shaner's black
glaze had 30 % of manganese in it, and he claims that every time he
fired his kiln (an average of once every two weeks), and open his
peeps to check it, he would breathe in the fumes. His manganese test
showed 5 times the normal amount manganese in his body. This article
is a beautifully written, heartbreaking tale of what might happen.
Perhaps someday we will know for sure if Manganese is a real
contributing factor in acquiring ALS. Surely using it is not worth
the risk.
My thoughts on the matter.
Liz
Edouard Bastarache wrote:
The primary target organs of manganese toxicity are the brain and the lungs.
1-Neurological symptoms (chronic manganese poisoning) are caused by
inhalation of fumes or dusts of manganese. Exposure to heavy concentrations
of dusts or fumes for
as little as three months may produce the condition, but usually cases
develop after 1-3 years of exposure.
The symptoms may simulate progressive bulbar paralysis, postencephalitic
Parkinsonism, multiple sclerosis, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and
progressive lenticular degeneration(Wilson's disease).
2-Toxicity to the lungs is manifested as increased susceptibility to
bronchitis or, in more severe cases, manganic pneumonia.
>
>Monona Rossol wrote:
>I have not read every study of manganese compounds, but unless a specific
>study has been done on skin absorption, the statement needs to be
>conservative. For example, almost every text says that lead doesn't skin
>absorb. And then in about 1990, the first study ever done on skin
>absorption of finely powdered lead metal and lead oxide powder showed that it
>does absorb!
>
>
>Most metal compounds have never been tested for skin absorption directly. So
>the doctor's more conservative statement is the one by which you should be
>guided. And while clearly, it doesn't just soak through the skin rapidly as
>the organic manganese compounds do, there probably is no actual study of
>manganese dioxide or manganese carbonate skin absorption. If there is one, I
>would love to know about it.
>
>
>All this aside, obviously the major danger is by inhalation. And the clay
>dust in your pottery will contain a component of manganese if you use
>manganese clays. Anyone who has ever worked with granular manganese knows
>that there is a lot of fine stuff in the product as well. That's the primary
>hazard. Keep the joint clean.
>
>
Liz Willoughby
2903 Shelter Valley Rd.
R.R. 1
Grafton, Ontario
Canada. K0K 2G0
lizwill@phc.igs.net
Karin Hurt on mon 14 feb 00
What kind of test should/could a doctor take to test whether one has been
exposed to Manganese? I've worked with it for years and I'd like to have
myself tested. Any ideas?
Dennis E. Tobin on tue 15 feb 00
Karin
I have had blood work up as well as tissue analysis done. The tissue
analysis consisted if taking hair smple and sending them to a lab. I guess
this was done to show what has been absorbed in the organ tissues?
Everything was OK for me tho. I guess they can use chelation to clean the
blood if you have too many metals in your system. I understand chelation is
aprocess where an IV is inserted and a protein is ijected into your blood
and it attaches to the metals and you secret it thru your urine. i
understand it is an older process they used to releave lead posioning. good
luck!
Dennis Tobin>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>What kind of test should/could a doctor take to test whether one has been
>exposed to Manganese? I've worked with it for years and I'd like to have
>myself tested. Any ideas?
Dennis Tobin
Associate Professor
Art Department
Miami University
Oxford, Ohio 45056
(513) 529-1505
Edouard Bastarache on tue 15 feb 00
------------------
Hello Karin,
Experts still differ about the precision of urinary and/or blood
measurements of manganese as good indicators of exposure
and intoxication .
The best way to diagnose, at an earlystage, manganese
intoxication is neurological examination.
A standardized questionnaire of neurological symptoms is helpful.
So, see a neurologist.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In =22La Belle Province=22
edouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/=7Eedouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Karin Hurt =3CLaffnbearpottery=40aol.com=3E
=C0 : CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
Date : 14 f=E9vrier, 2000 14:25
Objet : Re: Manganese
=3E----------------------------Original message----------------------------
=3EWhat kind of test should/could a doctor take to test whether one has been
=3Eexposed to Manganese? I've worked with it for years and I'd like to have
=3Emyself tested. Any ideas?
Edouard Bastarache on tue 15 feb 00
------------------
Hello Karin,
here are the symptoms to be looked for in chronic manganese
intoxication:
-nervousness
-irritability
-memory loss
-tiredness
-insomnia
-muscle weakness
-muscle pain
-trembling fingers
-stiffness of limbs
-difficulty with fine movements
-stuttering
-hoarse voice
-urinary problems
-impotence.
At the physical examination your doctor should look for signs of an
extra-pyramidal syndrome at its beginning.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Dans / In =22La Belle Province=22
edouardb=40sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/=7Eedouardb/
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Karin Hurt =3CLaffnbearpottery=40aol.com=3E
=C0 : CLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU =3CCLAYART=40LSV.UKY.EDU=3E
Date : 14 f=E9vrier, 2000 14:25
Objet : Re: Manganese
=3E----------------------------Original message----------------------------
=3EWhat kind of test should/could a doctor take to test whether one has been
=3Eexposed to Manganese? I've worked with it for years and I'd like to have
=3Emyself tested. Any ideas?
Jim Brooks on wed 16 feb 00
Edouard..i paid close attention to your lists of symptons.....These are
scary.. seems like i have had all of them since i was about 60 years
old....Could it be that im not really old.. but just have a form of chemical
poisoning?
Kris Cummings on sun 20 feb 00
"Manganese is an important chelating agent when consumed in manganese-rich
foods. It is a major factor in blocking calcium from entering the cells of
the arterial lining." Brazil nuts, pecans, barley, buckwheat, whole wheat,
and dried split peas are good sources of manganese.
'Prescription for Nutritional Healing' by Balch and Balch.
This book also describes a method of oral chelation therapy for persons who
are at risk for cirulatory problems or problems caused by toxic metal
accumulation. May help disorders like MS, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's
disease and arthritis.
Sounds less invasive than IV.
----------
>From: "Dennis E. Tobin"
>To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Manganese
>Date: Tue, Feb 15, 2000, 3:05 PM
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Karin
>
> I have had blood work up as well as tissue analysis done. The tissue
> analysis consisted if taking hair smple and sending them to a lab. I guess
> this was done to show what has been absorbed in the organ tissues?
> Everything was OK for me tho. I guess they can use chelation to clean the
> blood if you have too many metals in your system. I understand chelation is
> aprocess where an IV is inserted and a protein is ijected into your blood
> and it attaches to the metals and you secret it thru your urine. i
> understand it is an older process they used to releave lead posioning. good
> luck!
>
> Dennis Tobin>----------------------------Original
> message----------------------------
>>What kind of test should/could a doctor take to test whether one has been
>>exposed to Manganese? I've worked with it for years and I'd like to have
>>myself tested. Any ideas?
>
> Dennis Tobin
> Associate Professor
> Art Department
> Miami University
> Oxford, Ohio 45056
> (513) 529-1505
Mike Gordon on thu 31 aug 00
Hi Mary,
Back in the late 60's when I was in college at the College of Arts and
Crafts, in Oakland,Ca. we used to mix granular Manganese in wax resist
and paint it on large hand built pots. over a white clay slip.It gave a
great granit look. I don't know how this would work with glaze. We fired
at c/5 reduction. Mike Gordon
Mary Van Peursem on thu 31 aug 00
I fire cone 6 oxidation and want to know if I can wedge some Mn into
the clay to get "spots" showing through the glaze. Given the toxicity
of Mn, are kitchen gloves and mask enough protection? What % Mn
would be appropiate?
Thank you,
Mary Van Peursem
Duck Lake Pottery
Springport, Mi 49284
Elke Blodgett on thu 31 aug 00
Forget it. It is not worth it. From one who knows. Elke
Ask Monona if you still have questions.
On Thu, 31 Aug 2000, Mary Van Peursem wrote:
> I fire cone 6 oxidation and want to know if I can wedge some Mn into
> the clay to get "spots" showing through the glaze. Given the toxicity
> of Mn, are kitchen gloves and mask enough protection? What % Mn
> would be appropiate?
>
> Thank you,
> Mary Van Peursem
> Duck Lake Pottery
> Springport, Mi 49284
>
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>
Clay Coordinator on thu 2 may 02
Edouard,
Before we get off this topic, I want to understand.
Are you saying that there is no hazard with manganese dust?
Thanks,
John Britt
Penland Clay
BVCuma on thu 2 may 02
>>Are you saying that there is no hazard with manganese dust?<<
__________________
Come on Co-ordintor...
I mentioned collecting manganese ore from an open mine..
Not having a clue about its toxicity,
I am certainly reconsidering...
I wonder why..Duh!
Bruce
Edouard Bastarache on thu 2 may 02
Hello John,
I have never said that.
I supplied comprehensive information from the best sources
showing that it was less toxic than what alarmists
tried to make us believe.
I am against alarmist potters who post nearly
anything here on Clayart
It is a complicated matter for people without proper
knowledge in the field.
Many factors must be taken into account, and just
to name a few:
1-Particular toxicity of a chemical
2-Particle size distribution
3-Levels of exposure
4-Duration of exposure
5-Toxi-kinetics.
6-Etc.
Put it this way: "A shot of gin a day has never
kill anyone, but forty may in the long run".
We can not decide for potters what to do not
knowing what their exposure is like.
That is why I prefer to supply up to date and
comprehensive information to the list
and let individuals make their own decision.
Off list I can send you a zipped file of health hazards
in the pottery industry and in some studio-potter's
shops supplied by the Canadian Centre for Occupational
Health and Safety, Tom Buck knows the quality of the
information supplied by this Centre financed by our
federal govt., he lives close to it.
Just let me know.
Later,
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
http://sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Clay Coordinator
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: Manganese
> Edouard,
>
> Before we get off this topic, I want to understand.
>
> Are you saying that there is no hazard with manganese dust?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John Britt
> Penland Clay
>
>
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BVCuma on fri 3 may 02
Dear John
Please accept my apologies
my arrogance was uncalled for..
I have been following this thread closely.
Edouard said:
>>the first question asked on this matter was from Ababi and the use of =
0.2%=20
granular manganese in clays.
So, that is why I put some emphasis on the use of this granular material =
and I took this opportunity to give comprehensive information on =
different=20
toxicological aspects of manganese.<<
Bruce
ps. personally I will continue
with my use of manganese
but with much more awareness.
J Lutz on mon 8 jul 02
To go along with the discussion of what dangerous/interesting chemicals are
in the ordinary objects of our lives, I just came across the following
site. Might be of interest.
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/whatstuff/stuff.html
Bill Edwards on mon 8 sep 03
Your post is important. Once you narrow down the
information could you please provide the information
you find? I have some questions?
What level of manganese does the powders have that you
use. I am very suspect of the fumes more so than some
of the other stuff mentioned but the fumes are top on
my list.
Also how much manganese was your sister showing in her
tests?
Also once they do the test on your water that
information would be nice to have as well. Is it a
cummilative amount from several sources? While
pondering, I am prone to asking if you could get air
analysis samples done for manganese in the studio
where you fire even though the room is filtered. This
type of information could help monitor potential
hazards in the future for others. We know the fumes
can be hazardous. Many are still wondering if specks
of manganese were capable of creating health issues
and was the potential for creating enough dust using
speckled clays containing manganese enough to effect a
persons health over a period of time. Your post is an
important one and one that could help us figure some
of this out better. Those are lots of questions but
important ones to ask. The more we know the better we
can control what goes on around us!
Bill Edwards
beverly potter
Subject: manganese poisoning
Dear Calyart,
I have just found out that I have toxic levels of
Manganese. My level =
is 3.4. Close to double the safe amount. I am not a
potter but have =
worked in studios for the last 11 years. I have never
done Raku =
although my Sister has a moderate business doing Raku.
By the way she =
also has elevated levels of Manganese.
=====
http://www.tallapoosariverpottery.com/
Bill Edwards
PO Box 267
Lafayette, AL, 36862
__________________________________
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Sally McLeod on tue 10 may 05
I've missed reading a number of my clayart digests due to escalating health problems. I just took a peek at today's digest and I find that I need to post.
It's now two days later and I am determined to send this message today! It takes so damn long and after I was just about ready to send it I found I had only saved a portion of my post. My body (physically and mentally) is not functioning as well these days.
I have Parkinson's Disease! Do I know that my exposure to manganese dust caused my Parkinson's Disease? No, but I do know that manganese dust exposure and fume exposure are dangerous. To me, that is enough reason to avoid manganese. You need to make your own informed decision.
> Ron Roy wrote:
>
> "Watch out for Manganese - in clay or glazes - the dust is a real
> health
> hazard as are the fumes from firing it."
**** LISTEN TO RON ROY! ****
Regarding Parkinson's Disease the following information comes from the National Parkinson's Foundation:
What is Parkinson disease?
Parkinson disease is a brain disorder. It occurs when certain nerve cells (neurons) in a part of the brain called the substantia nigra die or become impaired. Normally, these cells produce a vital chemical known as dopamine. Dopamine allows smooth, coordinated function of the body's muscles and movement. When approximately 80% of the dopamine-producing cells are damaged, the symptoms of Parkinson disease appear.
What are the signs and symptoms of Parkinson disease?
The loss of dopamine production in the brain causes the primary symptoms of Parkinson disease. The key signs of Parkinson disease are:
Tremor (shaking)
Slowness of movement
Rigidity (stiffness)
Difficulty with balance
Other signs of Parkinson disease may include:
Small, cramped handwriting
Stiff facial expression
Shuffling walk
Muffled speech
Depression
Who gets Parkinson disease?
Parkinson disease affects both men and women in almost equal numbers. It shows no social, ethnic, economic or geographic boundaries. In the United States, it is estimated that 60,000 new cases are diagnosed each year, joining the 1.5 million Americans who currently have Parkinson disease. While the condition usually develops after the age of 65, 15% of those diagnosed are under 50.
How is Parkinson disease diagnosed?
The process of making a Parkinson disease diagnosis can be difficult. There is no X-ray or blood test that can confirm Parkinson disease. A physician arrives at the diagnosis only after a thorough examination. Blood tests and brain scans known as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) may be performed to rule out other conditions that have similar symptoms. People suspected of having Parkinson disease should consider seeking the care of a neurologist who specializes in Parkinson disease.
Whatever challenges we face in life, we can take them as reminders to take each day and live it to the fullest!!
For those who have tremors(either from essential tremors or parkinson's disease and want to use the computer check out this website.
www.montrosesecam.com
The Assistive Mouse Adapter is an effective and unobtrusive solution to the problem of operating a computer mouse with a tremor condition.The Assistive Mouse Adapter is an effective and unobtrusive solution to the problem of operating a computer mouse with a tremor condition.
Kate Johnson on wed 11 may 05
>
> I'd rather be too cautious -- in practice, and in giving advice to
> newbies -- than not cautious enough. Caution is easy and cheap. You can
> decide what risks to take for yourself, just like you can decide to
> jaywalk against the light based on your assessment of whether you can
> beat the car that's coming. Just be aware that the folks behind you at
> the crosswalk might follow without checking traffic for themselves,
> assuming it's safe because you decided to cross.
And that's what I love about Clayart. I appreciate the varied opinions and
attitudes, the solid information and the speculation. I've learned a lot in
this discussion...I knew manganese was not _as_ in favor as it once was, but
had no clue about a possible connection to Parkinson's. Hadn't been
concerned with fumes, at all...but don't need to, right at the moment.
I am pretty middle of the road as a potter...I don't mind using "dangerous"
things, with sufficient information and caution, I just want to know what
that caution might be. (I'm also a painter who uses some materials that can
be dangerous, and a black-powder reenactor. Talk about "could be
dangerous!" That's gunpowder, folks...)
I've been lucky (no kiln in my living space, so no fumes) and NOT careful,
in other ways--I don't wet mop every day, or even every week (alas, yes, I
admit it.), and am apparently flirting with silicosis and other nasties.
Must mend my ways...I generally work till I drop and have NO energy left for
cleaning. Better crank back the workaholic tendencies a mite...bad for my
kitties, too.
I DO decide what risks to take, myself, as Kelly says. I'm a grownup. But
it's nice to be informed of the wide range of possibilities in risk vs.
caution.
So thanks, all, I do greatly appreciate all the flood of information on this
subject. I don't plan to throw away my current bag of manganese, but will
continue to experiment with less-iffy substitutes for my dark slip.
Best--
Kate Johnson
graphicart@epsi.net
http://www.cathyjohnson.info/
Art, History, Nature and More at Cathy Johnson's Cafepress--
http://www.cafepress.com/cathy_johnson/
Graphics/Fine Arts Press--
http://www.epsi.net/graphic/
Lili Krakowski on tue 7 feb 06
The one time I was in London (1953-54) they had this great ad in the =
buses: "Remember men the Navy's rule/ There is no substitute for =
wool."
Well, there is no substitute for manganese. Both umber and Barnard clay =
enclose some manganese within themselves BUT I AM NOT THE ONE WHO KNOWS =
whether they are safer in the handling as raw materials, or in the fumes =
they give off. You need to ask a Monona Rossol, or John or Ron or....
However, some very nice and pleasant similarities can be gotten with =
cobalt and iron combos. In a high magnesium glaze the cobalt can, will =
give a purplish hue, balanced by the iron. Give it a try, lettuce know.
Lili Krakowski
Be of good courage
Ron Roy on wed 11 oct 06
Monona Rossol covers this in the latest issue of clay times.
Recent studies indicate that Manganese is a problem through ingestion and
seems to be acting in a similar way to lead - in other words there seems to
be a relationship between levels in water and childrens intelligence.
I don't believe it is in the best interestes of potters to be providing
trace elements by using unstable liner glazes. For one thing - we cannot
provide regulated doses - a very important factor.
RR
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Edouard Bastarache on tue 21 feb 12
There are 2 compounds that can be used in pottery,
manganese dioxide and the carbonate.
Its the dioxide that is generally used.
I send a MSDS for manganese carbonyl because Ben mentionned the carbonyl =
=3D
in a private e.mail to me
to make sure he had the proper information.
"----- Original Message -----=3D20
From: Ben Morrison=3D20
To: Edouard Bastarache=3D20
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: Black Glaze
Edouard,
The only explanation based on this article is that the product I was =3D
using was not manganese dioxide as it said on the bag from the =3D
manufacturer, but rather tricarbonyl of manganese. Prior to this =3D
exposure I'd been doing a lot of testing in the college studio on =3D
manganese glazes. In looking over this link you sent me I have had many =3D
of these symptoms associated with manganism. My only guess is that =3D
manufacturers of these products aren't really concerned with quality =3D
assurance. What got on my hand was supposed to be Manganese Dioxide, =3D
clearly it wasn't. Thanks for sending me that link it's helped identify =3D
some symptoms I'd not realized were from manganese.
Regards,
Ben Morrison"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
-------
Plejkore,
Edouard Bastarache=3D20
Spertesperantisto=3D20
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://smart2000.pagesperso-orange.fr/bloggs_edouard.htm
http://www.facebook.com/edouard.bastarache
Ben Morrison on tue 21 feb 12
My guess is that what was in my bag marked as Manganese Dioxide from the su=
=3D
pplier was actually Tricarbonyl Manganese, or one of the other compounds th=
=3D
at can absorb through your skin. Just be cautious with Manganese and other =
=3D
materials you buy. Manufacturers may not know or care what's actually going=
=3D
into a bag. I now treat Manganese as a toxic substance, treating it as I w=
=3D
ould an acid in a laboratory. That way I don't have to worry about it. Glov=
=3D
es, glasses and a mask is all it takes to keep yourself safe.=3D0A=3D0A-Ben=
=3D0A=3D
=3D0A=3D0A________________________________=3D0A From: Edouard Bastarache douard=3D
b@COLBA.NET>=3D0ATo: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG =3D0ASent: Tuesday, February =
21, =3D
2012 10:55 AM=3D0ASubject: Manganese=3D0A =3D0AThere are 2 compounds that c=
an be =3D
used in pottery,=3D0Amanganese=3DA0 dioxide and the carbonate.=3D0AIts the =
dioxid=3D
e that is generally used.=3D0A=3D0AI send a MSDS for manganese carbonyl bec=
ause=3D
Ben mentionned the carbonyl in a private e.mail to me=3D0Ato make sure he =
ha=3D
d the proper information.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A"----- Original Message ----- =3D0A=
From: Be=3D
n Morrison =3D0ATo: Edouard Bastarache =3D0ASent: Monday, February 20, 2012=
3:2=3D
4 PM=3D0ASubject: Re: Black Glaze=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AEdouard,=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AThe =
only explanati=3D
on based on this article is that the product I was using was not manganese =
=3D
dioxide as it said on the bag from the manufacturer, but rather tricarbonyl=
=3D
of manganese. Prior to this exposure I'd been doing a lot of testing in th=
=3D
e college studio on manganese glazes. In looking over this link you sent me=
=3D
I have had many of these symptoms associated with manganism. My only guess=
=3D
is that manufacturers of these products aren't really concerned with quali=
=3D
ty assurance. What got on my hand was supposed to be Manganese Dioxide, cle=
=3D
arly it wasn't. Thanks for sending me that link it's helped identify some s=
=3D
ymptoms I'd not realized were from manganese.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0ARegards,=3D0ABe=
n Morris=3D
on"=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A---------------------------------------------------------=
------=3D
-----------------=3D0A=3D0A=3D0APlejkore,=3D0A=3D0AEdouard Bastarache =3D0A=
Spertesperan=3D
tisto =3D0A=3D0ASorel-Tracy=3D0AQuebec=3D0A=3D0Ahttp://www.flickr.com/photo=
s/30058682=3D
@N00/=3D0Ahttp://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/=3D0Ahttp://smart2000.pages=
pers=3D
o-orange.fr/bloggs_edouard.htm=3D0Ahttp://www.facebook.com/edouard.bastarac=
he
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