The Wrights on thu 14 aug 97
Well, here's the question woman again. I hope you guys don't get sick
of me. I never outgrew the "Why?" and "How?" stage. I hope I never
will because that will be when I stop learning.
When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
pottery or ceramics. I am a hard worker and am willing to make
something I really enjoy work. I don't know if he was just disgruntled
with the fact that his pots didn't sell (from what I could see he had a
limited style from the '50's and didn't seem to be willing to change
with the times). It's hard for me to tell. I often feel like I would
like to eventually persue it as a means of earning a good living.
How are all of you doing? If that's not too personal a question. I
just need some encouragement.
Also, my prof. insisted that all wheel forms be footed except narrow
necks. He had a few stories about people who "cheated" and didn't give
a classic foot and that's why they couldn't sell their wares. A few of
you suggested not being too hung up on footing. Are you selling your
work even if you don't foot?
So what does anyone think about this?
Thanks again everyone. I hope someday I can help you with something.
Robert Kertesz on fri 15 aug 97
forget your professor...he has too many rules and limitations...that's
probably why he ended up in Academia
freewill on fri 15 aug 97
You wrote:
> When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
> enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
> fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
> pottery or ceramics.
I am nearly convinced that this is something that all college teachers are
required to put in the curriculum. My teacher is exactly the same way. In
fact, he'll show you two sheets of notes proving that it's financially
impossible to make a solvent pottery business. Then he goes on to tell his
stories of the people he knows who went ahead and started pottery
businesses anyway, and yes they're still doing it but they also live in
houses without running water...
I have a lot of trouble believing all of this. There's a lot of customers
out there, and I don't really think there's *anything* that there isn't
some market for. It's just a matter of finding those people who want to
buy, and convincing the rest that they want your product. Someone on
ClayArt was just talking about how Warren McKenzie pretty much created his
own market through customer education (Lectures, demos, etc...) That's a
LOT of work, and much much harder than selling something people
something they already want (like Pepsi, for example) but excitement about
your art is contagious and feeds on its own energy. And remember, the
masses had to be *taught* that they want Pepsi through years and years of
slick advertising.
Teachers like ours can be *very* discouraging. However, making pots is not
something I could stop doing entirely and still be happy. So, for the time
being, I am not quitting my day job and I am going to try to place some of
my stuff in either the craft galleries around here, or perhaps take it to
a art/craft show and see what happens. I figure that real market
experience is going to be a lot more "objective" than whatever my teacher
is saying. Test out your market. Start small, and learn from what sells.
You can change your product, your venue, your pricing, your advertising;
record all the results and go from there.
All wheel forms do not have to be footed, that's silly. However,
not putting a foot on (or putting a foot on, for that matter) should be
an artistic DECISION, not something you do because you're not capable of
doing the other. Know what I mean? You could explore lots of ways to
foot....look at other people's stuff, and historical stuff. Try them all.
Try not footing, try trimming in a foot, try throwing a foot on
seperately, try extruding a foot and sticking it on, make up some goofy
kind of foot that no one's ever heard of and try that! But go for the look
you want, not "whatever's easiest".
Looking forward to your next question....
jenni
jlexau@cwis.unomaha.edu
David Hendley on fri 15 aug 97
Your professor is wrong.
There is no such thing as "cheating". If it works and you like it, it is good.
As for "earning a good living", everything is relative. (But everything is
possable).
Ask a yuppie couple pulling down 150K a year if they are "earning a good
living". They are probably in debt up to their ears and think they shoud be
making more money.
He is correct, however, that pottery is a hard business to be in, and you
must be dedicated and hard working to make a go of it.
Best wishes,
David Hendley
At 10:56 AM 8/14/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Well, here's the question woman again. I hope you guys don't get sick
>of me. I never outgrew the "Why?" and "How?" stage. I hope I never
>will because that will be when I stop learning.
>
>When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
>enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
>fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
>pottery or ceramics. I am a hard worker and am willing to make
>something I really enjoy work. I don't know if he was just disgruntled
>with the fact that his pots didn't sell (from what I could see he had a
>limited style from the '50's and didn't seem to be willing to change
>with the times). It's hard for me to tell. I often feel like I would
>like to eventually persue it as a means of earning a good living.
>
>How are all of you doing? If that's not too personal a question. I
>just need some encouragement.
>
>Also, my prof. insisted that all wheel forms be footed except narrow
>necks. He had a few stories about people who "cheated" and didn't give
>a classic foot and that's why they couldn't sell their wares. A few of
>you suggested not being too hung up on footing. Are you selling your
>work even if you don't foot?
>
>So what does anyone think about this?
>
>Thanks again everyone. I hope someday I can help you with something.
>
>
Carol Ratliff.clayart.CLAYART.MAILING LIST on fri 15 aug 97
In a message dated 97-08-14 16:43:32 EDT, you write:
<< I often feel like I would
like to eventually persue it as a means of earning a good living.
How are all of you doing? If that's not too personal a question. I
just need some encouragement. >>
I pursued it anyway, and maybe someday it will earn a living for me - I can
only dream that it will be a good living but I'll do it anyway because I feel
I need to, as much as I want to. For now I can say that I am so glad I am
married and have to time to spend working up to that someday. I found that
the sales I had went down to half when war broke out in the early 90's over
in Iran. My theory is that when the economy is in trouble people can't
afford to buy decorative stuff like when things seem good. So I started
including more functional work and it improved some. It all depends on what
you make & where you sell it alot of times.
carol ratliff
san diego,ca
ambersmith on fri 15 aug 97
I'm really interested in this as well.. I think I ought to be able to make
a living at what I am doing. My work does sell well locally, but it's quite
a small place, with alot of very skilled potters (competition is awesome!)
so it seems to be a question of volume, and I keep stuggling with the best
way to get my work "out there". I'd love to be so much in demand that
people came to my door! Maybe oneday..any suggestions on cost effective
ways to sell?? Amber
The Wrights wrote in article
<33F29E5B.45B1@bellatlantic.net>...
Jeff Lawrence on fri 15 aug 97
flobiwan asked:
>How are all of you doing?
>my prof. insisted that all wheel forms be footed except narrow
>necks. He had a few stories about people who "cheated" and didn't give
>a classic foot and that's why they couldn't sell their wares.
I watched a Bernard Leach apprentice showing me the mugs he likes to make.
He undercut a bare 1/4", cut it and then rolled the mug around on on its
edge ... once, without marring the wire marks before he set it aside to dry
for a handle. I am still working for his economy of motion and simplicity of
result. It makes my trimmed feet look as overworked as UPS workers aren't
these days.
don't get stuck in his ruts!
Jeff
Jeff Lawrence
Sun Dagger Design
ph/fax 505-753-5913
Cindy on fri 15 aug 97
If you're good, and you make things people want to buy, then you can
certainly make a living potting. (Not teaching--teaching is good, but
that's not what I'm talking about--I mean making and selling pots.)
You're likely right about your Prof. Of course, I don't know, but that's my
guess. If you're willing to be a business-woman and make the sorts of
things people want to buy, you can make money. If you're determined to only
make those things which express your inner artist or whatever, you'd better
be willing to starve for your art as many honored artists have done. I'm
not saying one is better than another--it's a matter of what's important to
you.
That's not saying you can't use your imagination. In fact, you *must* use
your imagination--develop your own individual style. Why should anyone want
to buy your work if there's nothing unique or special about it? And of
course, it doesn't hurt at all if you happen to have a smashing collection
of blue glazes.
As for footing your pieces, most people couldn't care less. Do smooth the
bottoms, though. You don't want rough pot bases scratching up someone's
fine antique furniture.
Cindy
>
> When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
> enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
> fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
> pottery or ceramics. I am a hard worker and am willing to make
> something I really enjoy work. I don't know if he was just disgruntled
> with the fact that his pots didn't sell (from what I could see he had a
> limited style from the '50's and didn't seem to be willing to change
> with the times). It's hard for me to tell. I often feel like I would
> like to eventually persue it as a means of earning a good living.
>
> How are all of you doing? If that's not too personal a question. I
> just need some encouragement.
>
> Also, my prof. insisted that all wheel forms be footed except narrow
> necks. He had a few stories about people who "cheated" and didn't give
> a classic foot and that's why they couldn't sell their wares. A few of
> you suggested not being too hung up on footing. Are you selling your
> work even if you don't foot?
>
> So what does anyone think about this?
>
> Thanks again everyone. I hope someday I can help you with something.
Don Jones on fri 15 aug 97
>How are all of you doing? If that's not too personal a question. I
>just need some encouragement.
>
>Also, my prof. insisted that all wheel forms be footed except narrow
>necks. He had a few stories about people who "cheated" and didn't give
>a classic foot and that's why they couldn't sell their wares. A few of
>you suggested not being too hung up on footing. Are you selling your
>work even if you don't foot?
>
>So what does anyone think about this?
>
>Thanks again everyone. I hope someday I can help you with something.
Dear Wrights,
As a matter of fact, my business is doing better than I ever expected. I
do think that the market demands a high degree of finishing and I think
that includes footing and other niceties. The more you can make your work
look like a work of art the more it will be valued.
Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
Craig Fent on sat 16 aug 97
In a message dated 97-08-14 16:17:43 EDT, you write:
<< When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
pottery or ceramics. >>
This question has come up many times in discussions in our pottery class.
And the general concensus is that it would be very tough. But, what in life
has been easy so far.
What occured to me at NCECA was that there were thousands of potters in Las
Vegas, and that was just the tip of the iceberg. If all of these people were
trying to make a living at ceramics, which I realize they're not, but if
they were, what kind of chance do I have? So what if just a fraction were
trying? Still a lot of competition.
Don't get me wrong, I do plan on trying some day, but I think it is going to
take a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice.
<necks. He had a few stories about people who "cheated" and didn't give
a classic foot and that's why they couldn't sell their wares. A few of
you suggested not being too hung up on footing. Are you selling your
work even if you don't foot?>>
I think feet are nice on some forms, almost required on some, but some do not
require feet, or even shouldn't have a foot. I throw a lot of large vase
forms and I don't feel that a foot would impove the piece not to mention it
would be very hard to trim a foot on them. I could throw a separate foot and
attach it, but I think it would detract from the form. On the other hand,
bowls almost require a foot just to get the thickness right.
Anyway that's my two cents worth.
Craig Fent
Carl meigs on sat 16 aug 97
At 10:09 AM 8/15/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>You wrote:
>
>> When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
>> enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
>> fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
>> pottery or ceramics.
>
>I am nearly convinced that this is something that all college teachers are
>required to put in the curriculum. My teacher is exactly the same way. In
>fact, he'll show you two sheets of notes proving that it's financially
>impossible to make a solvent pottery business. Then he goes on to tell his
>stories of the people he knows who went ahead and started pottery
>businesses anyway, and yes they're still doing it but they also live in
>houses without running water...
>
>I have a lot of trouble believing all of this. There's a lot of customers
>out there, and I don't really think there's *anything* that there isn't
>some market for. It's just a matter of finding those people who want to
>buy, and convincing the rest that they want your product. Someone on
>ClayArt was just talking about how Warren McKenzie pretty much created his
>own market through customer education (Lectures, demos, etc...) That's a
>LOT of work, and much much harder than selling something people
>something they already want (like Pepsi, for example) but excitement about
>your art is contagious and feeds on its own energy. And remember, the
>masses had to be *taught* that they want Pepsi through years and years of
>slick advertising.
>
>Teachers like ours can be *very* discouraging. However, making pots is not
>something I could stop doing entirely and still be happy. So, for the time
>being, I am not quitting my day job and I am going to try to place some of
>my stuff in either the craft galleries around here, or perhaps take it to
>a art/craft show and see what happens. I figure that real market
>experience is going to be a lot more "objective" than whatever my teacher
>is saying. Test out your market. Start small, and learn from what sells.
>You can change your product, your venue, your pricing, your advertising;
>record all the results and go from there.
>
>
>
>All wheel forms do not have to be footed, that's silly. However,
>not putting a foot on (or putting a foot on, for that matter) should be
>an artistic DECISION, not something you do because you're not capable of
>doing the other. Know what I mean? You could explore lots of ways to
>foot....look at other people's stuff, and historical stuff. Try them all.
>Try not footing, try trimming in a foot, try throwing a foot on
>seperately, try extruding a foot and sticking it on, make up some goofy
>kind of foot that no one's ever heard of and try that! But go for the look
>you want, not "whatever's easiest".
>
>
>Looking forward to your next question....
>
>jenni
>
>jlexau@cwis.unomaha.edu
>
>Anyone who doubts that pottery can be a going business should visit
Seagrove, NC, especially the fall pottery festival. When I was there
they extimated 10000 people in attendance. And they were selling as
fast as they could wrap.
meigs@neca.com
Erin Hayes on sat 16 aug 97
Oh dear...I hope we're not going to get into this, "This who can, do;
those who can't, teach" thing.
Erin.
Robert Kertesz wrote:
> ---------------------------Original message----------------------------
> forget your professor...he has too many rules and limitations...that's
> probably why he ended up in Academia
Sue Davis on sat 16 aug 97
Hi, I do not always foot my pieces. I work in Majolica and my work sells
quite well. Could make a living at it but am not that disciplined. Business
got big enough so I needed to hire help and didn/t want to expand. I throw
mainly functional work. Hope this helps.
The Wrights on sun 17 aug 97
Thanks to everyone again for your wonderfully honest and open answers,
some of you responded personally. I appreciate everyones help. I am
much more encouraged now. I am responding to "freewills" post.
> I am nearly convinced that this is something that all college teachers are
> required to put in the curriculum. My teacher is exactly the same way. In
> fact, he'll show you two sheets of notes proving that it's financially
> impossible to make a solvent pottery business. Then he goes on to tell his
> stories of the people he knows who went ahead and started pottery
> businesses anyway, and yes they're still doing it but they also live in
> houses without running water...
Oh brother!!!
>
> Teachers like ours can be *very* discouraging. However, making pots is not
> something I could stop doing entirely and still be happy.
You're absolutely right. Last summer and fall when I was going through
the stress of preparing for a wedding, packing and emotionally preparing
for leaving living with my parents. Yes, I am an old fashioned woman
and lived with my parents until I was 37. But anyway, I would go down
to my wheel and just throw a few forms and feel so much better.
I am taking your advise and hope that by the time next spring/summer
rolls around I will have enough work to put in various situations, to
see what works around here.
Cathie Feild on sun 17 aug 97
There is a really good article in the Summer 1997 issue of "Contact," the
Canadian ceramics magazine. It is by Dan Taylor, who is a participant on
this list, and is called, "This Business of Potting." My husband and I found
it informative and encouraging as we plan to open our own pottery shop within
the next year. The article contains some very practical advice and I
recommend it to anyone considering this question.
On a personal note, I want to say thanks to Dan for a well-written, helpful,
and timely (for us) article!
Cathie and David Feild
cfeild@aol.com
stevemills on mon 18 aug 97
We have a current joke in the UK about a Potter who won the big one on
the national lottery.... 1 million plus.........asked if it would make a
difference to their life.............replied "no, I'll just keep on
making pots and selling them 'till the money runs out"!!
whenever this one's told the laughter tends to be a bit hollow!
Steve.
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>You wrote:
>
>> When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
>> enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
>> fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
>> pottery or ceramics.
>
--
Steve Mills
@Bath Potters Supplies
Dorset Close
Bath
BA2 3RF
UK
Tel:(44) (0)1225 337046
Fax:(44) (0)1225 462712
David Hendley on mon 18 aug 97
Steve - Here's our current one.
What's the best career move in pottery?
Retire.
David Hendley in Texas
At 08:23 AM 8/18/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>We have a current joke in the UK about a Potter who won the big one on
>the national lottery.... 1 million plus.........asked if it would make a
>difference to their life.............replied "no, I'll just keep on
>making pots and selling them 'till the money runs out"!!
>whenever this one's told the laughter tends to be a bit hollow!
>Steve.
>>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>
>>You wrote:
>>
>>> When I was a student, my ceramics professor, knowing how much I really
>>> enjoyed clay, insisted that it is a very hard business to be in. In
>>> fact he almost insisted that it's impossible to earn a living doing
>>> pottery or ceramics.
>>
>--
>Steve Mills
>@Bath Potters Supplies
>Dorset Close
>Bath
>BA2 3RF
>UK
>Tel:(44) (0)1225 337046
>Fax:(44) (0)1225 462712
>
>
Tamsin A. Whitehead on wed 20 aug 97
I have just very recently come to the conclusion that although I have been
selling work around the place and claiming that I run a part-time pottery
business, I really know very little about the 'business' side of things.
Most craft people that I know who have made a success out of selling their
craft as a way of making a living are people who also have a strong
grasp of this. So I have started going into all this now, with the
determination of running a pottery BUSINESS. I thought I would just share
a few discoveries with anyone who might feel in a similar situation....
I have bought or borrowed from the library a number of books/publications
on the subject of running a craft or small business (in my case from my
home). Two fairly up to date books I have found particularly interesting
(usual disclaimers - I have no connection with them) are "How to start a
home-based craft business" by Kenn Oberrecht, and "Crafting as a business"
by Wendy Rosen. They are both very user friendly and cover such things as
writing a business plan, marketing, pricing, etc. Most libraries will
carry an assortment of books on small business management.
I am discovering also that there are groups and organisations in my area
such as the state division of the Small Business Development Center,
womens' business groups etc which are happy to help with information and
often run workshops to help people develop their own businesses.
I am learning that I am going to have to be organised, disciplined and
take charge of the administrative side of things. (Big, no, Extra Big
groan!) This is true for me, but
everybody has their own strengths and weaknesses. I would much rather
spend all my time in my studio, happily working away with my clay, but if
I want to eventually make a living at it, I know these other things have
to be done.
Well, I'm off to buy a filing cabinet (pre-owned).......!
Tamsin
Nottingham, NH
USA
Carol Jackaway on wed 20 aug 97
Hi Again,
I went to college to learn about clay. I learned alot about clay bodies,
kilns, cones, glazes, materials, Throwing, handbuilding, slab forms, and
molds. What I didn't learn was how to handle retail and wholesale customers,
pricing formulas, shippment schudeling, what to look for in shows, etc. If
making a living in pottery is so hard why don't they start to teach how to's
in college? By the way the school of hard knocks will teach you the answer
to all these questions, and if your still standing when their done, your on
your way!
Carol Jackaway
Parkside Pa.
Alan Ambrose on wed 20 aug 97
My 10c on this is: On _average_, your prices need to cover your labor (at
the rate
you need/want to be paid plus taxes), studio rent/taxes, equipment
depreciation,
and materials. Labor should include development and testing time, kiln
packing,
wrapping, administration, time spent at exhibitions etc (i.e. a start is to
divide the
average number of pots per week by the number of hours you work). It will
only
be possible to estimate this roughly, but you should feel that you are
accurate to
_say_, $2 per hour/per pot. Try this calculation several ways (a) By Hour -
_average_ number of pots per hour divided by your labour rate multiplied by
average overhead rate (your accountant or book-keeper will be able to tell
you this; (b) By Month - average pots per month divided by average expenses
per month (including taxes, equipment depreciation); (c) By Year (even
better if
you can do this over 2/3 years) - total number of pots divided by total
expense.
These calculations should give _roughly_ the same answers, if they don't,
investigate because it will probably tell you something important about
your costs
that you are overlooking (e.g. are you taking proper account of studio rent
and equipement depreciation). You will probably find that the biggest cost
is labor.
This is a key observation, because it tells you that efficient use of your
time is important.
(Don't go crazy over this, all you're trying to do is get a feel for the
lowest price you
should sell your work at..) If this kind of thing fries your artistic
brain, get your book-
keeper to help run the numbers - but try and make the effort to understand
because
this may mean the difference between you continuing to do the thing you
love or not.
The other side is, of course, what 'the market' will pay for your work.
This will depend
a lot who is buying, where and why. There are no rules, so experiment with
prices
(may be different for the same work at different outlets) and get a feel
for 'the market'.
Talk to your customers, observe them, ask some what they think of the
prices, get a
feel for why they are buying, try to understand their thoughts and feelings
when they
buy. Some people would call this 'market research', you could just call it
empathy.
Lastly look at your records to see what you make money on and what you
don't.
This is important information. Having a bad financial month - then grit
your teeth and
make a load of those dreadful blue incense burners (or whatever you have
figured
you make lots of money on) that you hate but they (your clients) love.
I apologise if all this is obvious to some, but I know that there are
others who don't
find this obvious at all. Lastly, this all is 'conventional business logic'
and as such
is only one of the many pieces of logic, emotion, intuition, inspiration
and faith you'll
use to run your art/business. Good luck.
Alan Ambrose
Eleanora Eden on tue 26 aug 97
Hi Tamsin and all,
I mentioned awhile back that I took advantage of the SCORE program, which
is a program sponsored by the US Biz Adm connecting retired executives with
people who need business advice. They also do small biz loans I do believe
but I didn't look into that.
In New Hampshire the phone is 603-448-3491 in Lebanon.
I bet the local library could put you onto them in your location. The guy
who came to visit me was a retired college president and sweet and helpful
as could be.
Eleanora
Eleanora Eden 802 869-2003
Paradise Hill
Bellows Falls, VT 05101 eden@sover.net
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