Jonathan Kaplan on wed 18 dec 96
While I am sure that the "three times the clay cost" may provide a
barometer for arriving at a price for your work, I am wondering how exact
it is.
I can only speak from my experience as a production potter in my previous
life and now as a contract manufacturer for others now. Direct costs
include labor (and of course taxes on that labor) and materials. Indirect
costs include everything else necessary to keep your shop going. This is
called overhead and your bookeeper can figure out a percentage that you
need to add to your direct costs. Direct costs are fixed. Indirect costs
vary month to month. Depreciation must be accounted for even if it looked
at as soft money, and can be a direct cost, as a percentage. Profit, is
computed on the above mentioned totals.
It is a very enlightening effort to see how this works, and what you are
actually making. In fact, it can be shocking. Controlling costs and
overhead is a huge job. We all think even though clay is still pennies a
pound, our work is cost effective to produce. If you don't account for
everything that needs to be accounted for, you are usually working for
pennies.
I don't intend for these comments to be misconstrued for "well, I do this
as a labor of love" and thats not the point here. We can all love what we
do, but I am sure that many of us, if not all of us, need to make a profit
or at least break even!!
Jonathan
Jonathan Kaplan
Ceramic Design Group Ltd./Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs CO 80477
jonathan@csn.net
(970) 879-9139*voice and fax
http://www.craftweb.com/org/jkaplan/cdg.shtml
William & Susan Schran User on wed 30 jun 10
Seems like the question I get most often from my students is how they shoul=
d
price their work.
Years ago I sat down and figured out all of my expenses, how much I would
pay myself per hour (I think at the time it was $20 per hour) and came up
with the notion that I needed to make $200 per 25 pound bag of clay.
A designer blog my wife gets: "feedblitz" had the following about how to
price your work:
k
.html>
Has some interesting ways of how to price your work.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Terrance on thu 1 jul 10
Bill;
Pricing one=3D92s work is a very difficult thing. When the young ask me th=
=3D
at=3D20
question, I respond with the question "How much should you NOT charge for=
=3D
=3D20
your work?"
I wrote an a bit about this on clayart a few years back. In fact a way b=
=3D
ack.=3D20=3D20
Where has the time gone? You can see my feelings about pricing at:
http://clayart.ca/00202My%20Library/00300Article_Pricing_Our_Work_Page.ht=
=3D
m
It is a bit long but I think it is a good theory exercise for young potte=
=3D
rs.=3D20=3D20
I feel that there is a need for art schools teaching crafts to build a cl=
=3D
ass on=3D20
the business side of the profession. Pricing would be a big part of the =
=3D
program.
Food for thought
Terrance
Mea Rhee on thu 1 jul 10
Bill,
Thanks for this article. I hope that all professional craft artists will =
=3D
dispense of the bottom-
up approach as a theory, it just doesn't hold water. And everyone should =
=3D
adopt the top-
down approach instead, which should be called the "connected to reality" =
=3D
approach.=3D20
I am actually in the middle of a year-long project to calculate my hourly=
=3D
earnings in exactly=3D20
that method. I am posting the results on the Ceramics Arts Daily Forums (=
=3D
=3D20
http://ceramicartsdaily.org/community/index.php?/index ), which will lead=
=3D
you to my blog=3D20
where I am writing about the results.=3D20
For professional potters, and aspiring professionals, if you want to read=
=3D
the results go to my=3D20=3D20
blog, http://goodelephant.com , and click on the category The Hourly Earn=
=3D
ings Project.
The results have been somewhat surprising, some good, some bad.
-Mea
Lee Love on thu 1 jul 10
My teacher's Japanese apprentices got the price list from the
apprentice that graduated before them to use as prices for their
graduation show. My teacher thought my graduation show prices were
high. He didn't take into account that I had been selling pots for
13 years.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
=3D93Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent.=3D94 --Rumi
Jennifer Boyer on thu 1 jul 10
I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other people
are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound system is so =
I
can price new things in my line and have the prices make sense compared to
my other work. I weigh all my clay before throwing. I set a base rate of
13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat rate to
add for each addition: so much for a handle, a lid(several prices for
different sizes), any extra work after throwing and trimming is done. Work=
s
well.
Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and I have =
a
database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek tendencies?
Just sayin....
Jennifer
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Mea Rhee wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Thanks for this article. I hope that all professional craft artists will
> dispense of the bottom-
> up approach as a theory, it just doesn't hold water. And everyone should
> adopt the top-
> down approach instead, which should be called the "connected to reality"
> approach.
>
> I am actually in the middle of a year-long project to calculate my hourly
> earnings in exactly
> that method. I am posting the results on the Ceramics Arts Daily Forums (
> http://ceramicartsdaily.org/community/index.php?/index ), which will lead
> you to my blog
> where I am writing about the results.
>
> For professional potters, and aspiring professionals, if you want to read
> the results go to my
> blog, http://goodelephant.com , and click on the category The Hourly
> Earnings Project.
>
> The results have been somewhat surprising, some good, some bad.
>
> -Mea
>
Clyde Tullis on thu 1 jul 10
Total expenses does mean TOTAL expenses. Don't forget health ins., etc.=3D2=
0=3D
I've done this at times out of necessity. Order for 2000 of one piece? Y=
=3D
ou
surely don't want to get to the end and find out you just broke even beca=
=3D
use
you didn't include the packing step. Price each piece as if that was all =
=3D
you
are making. Don't say I can't charge what I need for a Teapot but I make =
=3D
it
up on the mugs. A spread sheet or data base can make this all pretty easy=
=3D
.
Clyde Tullis
Hot in Denver But AC in the studio!!!!
phil on thu 1 jul 10
If the Work is good...
If nothing sells, the price is too high.
If some sells, the price may close to alright, but, still too high.
If half sells, and half not, may be a good time to think about what sense
could be made of
it.
If almost all sells, the price is right.
If everything sells, the price is like way right, or could be bumped up a
little.
Who is the work for, and, did they show up?
Is the other part of the equation.
How long it took the practioner to make the work is irrelevent, and of zero
interest to anyone as for it being a justificaiton of anything, and should
have nothing to do with the price.
Make it right...sell it right...
Devil Take the Hindermost....
----- Original Message -----
From: "William & Susan Schran User"
> Seems like the question I get most often from my students is how they
> should
> price their work.
>
> Years ago I sat down and figured out all of my expenses, how much I would
> pay myself per hour (I think at the time it was $20 per hour) and came up
> with the notion that I needed to make $200 per 25 pound bag of clay.
>
> A designer blog my wife gets: "feedblitz" had the following about how to
> price your work:
>
> ork
> .html>
>
> Has some interesting ways of how to price your work.
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William "Bill" Schran
> wschran@cox.net
> wschran@nvcc.edu
> http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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05:24:00
KATHI LESUEUR on fri 2 jul 10
On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Jennifer Boyer wrote:
> I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other
> people
> are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound
> system is so I
> can price new things in my line and have the prices make sense
> compared to
> my other work. I weigh all my clay before throwing. I set a base
> rate of
> 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat
> rate to
> add for each addition: so much for a handle, a lid(several prices for
> different sizes), any extra work after throwing and trimming is
> done. Works
> well.
> Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and
> I have a
> database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek
> tendencies?
> Just sayin....
> Jennifer
I use a system similar to Jennifer's. However, I do leave leeway for
raising or lowing the price of an item. All of this work of cost
analysis is just too much for my brain to do. I'm not not a numbers
person. And, in the end I think it has little bearing on the price
the market will accept. There's a story often told in marketing
classes about a small snow scraper that was sold in gas station. The
manufacturer put it out at three different prices. The manufacturer
made a healthy profit on the cheapest price. One would think that the
cheapest price sold best. But no. People felt if it was that cheap it
probably wasn't any good and would break easily. The highest price
also didn't work. Not enough value for the price. The mid-price was
the most popular.
Pricing is an art and the cost to you to make the item isn't
necessarily going to get you the right price in the eyes of the
buyer. Look around at what others are charging (and are they actually
selling at that price or do the pots just sit). Look what an upscale
gift shop charges for a similar item. Start low. You can always raise
your price if the item moves well. But, if you lower the price you'll
have lots of angry customers who paid the higher price.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
Lis Allison on fri 2 jul 10
On July 1, 2010, you wrote:
> I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other
> people are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound
> system is so I can price new things in my line and have the prices
> make sense compared to my other work. I weigh all my clay before
> throwing. I set a base rate of 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work
> over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat rate to add for each addition: so much
> for a handle, a lid(several prices for different sizes), any extra
> work after throwing and trimming is done. Works well.
> Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and I
> have a database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek
> tendencies? Just sayin....
> Jennifer
That's a very interesting approach. How did you come up with the figures
for the base rate and how much to add for handles, lids etc?
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
William & Susan Schran User on fri 2 jul 10
Found this on a web site about retail markdowns:
At Costco, when a price ends in $B!H (B9 $B!m (B, it is the original price=
. If it ends in
$B!H (B7 $B!m (B it is reduced for clearance. If there is an * in the pric=
e it means the
item will not be restocked.
At Home Depot if the price ends in 66, it means it is marked for final
clearance.
At Target, when the price ends in 4, it is the final markdown. If the item
doesn $B!G (Bt sell, it is sent to Goodwill or a salvage company.
Bill
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
On 7/2/10 9:11 PM, "Lis Allison" wrote:
> On July 2, 2010, you wrote:
>> a long time ago i read some similar report on pricing. the human
>> perception that a $9.99 item was cheaper than a $10.00 item, so i
>> tend to put things at a whole number price rather than fall into the
>> 99 cent store mode of $whatever.99.
>>
> Many moons ago I worked for a major retailer. The story I heard there was
> that the .99 pricing was a code to show that the item had been marked
> down. First markdown, the new price ended in .99, 2nd markdown, .98 and s=
o
> on. Maybe apocryphal but it sounded reasonable. Anybody know?
>
> My point is that we have learned that things that end in .99, .98 etc.
> have been marked down.
>
> Cheers,
> Lis
>
> --
> Elisabeth Allison
> Pine Ridge Studio
> website: www.pine-ridge.ca
> Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
> Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Bonnie Hellman on fri 2 jul 10
And I would add (writing as a CPA, business advisor, tax preparer) that if
the price at which an item will sell is not high enough to cover all of the
seller's costs (cost of materials, firing, the wage you require per hour,
packaging, selling, etc.) then if your goal is to make a profit, you should
not be selling this item.
I'm sure there are exceptions, such as you sell it because people who buy i=
t
ALSO buy very profitable items. However if you are running a business, your
prices need to provide you with net INCOME, as compared to net loss. If you
are earning an hourly rate that is too low, then you need to make changes.
The IRS expects you to demonstrate that you are TRYING to make a profit.
That is the IRS definition of a business: one that tries to make money. A
hobby (as we all know) does not have a profit motive. For our hobbies, we
buy what we like, want and (hopefully) can afford, just because we enjoy ou=
r
hobbies. If we sell what we produce, then we have additional money to spend=
.
We'd like to cover our direct costs, and if we aren't paid for our time and
effort, we don't particularly care.
If we want to run a social services company, we may feel that we should sel=
l
our work at the lowest possible prices to sustain our existence. This
does not mean that we shouldn't help others or be generous. Even businesses
make charitable contributions! But if you are asking how to price your wor=
k
because you want to make a profit, you can go through the numerical analysi=
s
to a greater or lesser extent, but the "fair market price" by definition is
the price a willing buyer will pay a willing seller in an "arm's length
transaction." This pricing is the art that Kathi leSueur wrote about
(copied below).
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
Ouray, CO 81427
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of KATHI LESUEUR
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:08 AM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Pricing your work
On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Jennifer Boyer wrote:
> I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other
> people
> are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound
> system is so I
> can price new things in my line and have the prices make sense
> compared to
> my other work. I weigh all my clay before throwing. I set a base
> rate of
> 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat
> rate to
> add for each addition: so much for a handle, a lid(several prices for
> different sizes), any extra work after throwing and trimming is
> done. Works
> well.
> Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and
> I have a
> database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek
> tendencies?
> Just sayin....
> Jennifer
I use a system similar to Jennifer's. However, I do leave leeway for
raising or lowing the price of an item. All of this work of cost
analysis is just too much for my brain to do. I'm not not a numbers
person. And, in the end I think it has little bearing on the price
the market will accept. There's a story often told in marketing
classes about a small snow scraper that was sold in gas station. The
manufacturer put it out at three different prices. The manufacturer
made a healthy profit on the cheapest price. One would think that the
cheapest price sold best. But no. People felt if it was that cheap it
probably wasn't any good and would break easily. The highest price
also didn't work. Not enough value for the price. The mid-price was
the most popular.
Pricing is an art and the cost to you to make the item isn't
necessarily going to get you the right price in the eyes of the
buyer. Look around at what others are charging (and are they actually
selling at that price or do the pots just sit). Look what an upscale
gift shop charges for a similar item. Start low. You can always raise
your price if the item moves well. But, if you lower the price you'll
have lots of angry customers who paid the higher price.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
Robert Harris on fri 2 jul 10
It seems to me that there is nothing contradictory about Terrance's
hard-headed business approach and Phil (and others) what the market
will bear approach. Both should be done. If there is a significant
difference between the two (in a negative way) then we are obviously
not going to be able to support ourselves.
In this case we either need to get a wealthy benefactor (spouse?) who
takes care of our living expenses, mortgage etc so that we do not need
to make as much money to live, or we need to make a better, more
desirable product - or be able to make the same product faster.
If one's product is not desirable because our artistic muse is not in
lines with our society's values then you need to make some compromises
artistically. On the other hand if you make lumpy mug (or a very nice
mug very slowly) then you need to get a different job and spend all
your free time practicing, practicing, practicing, until you can
produce something the market wants. Or get a wealthy benefactor.
On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:08 PM, KATHI LESUEUR
wrote:
> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Jennifer Boyer wrote:
>
>> I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other
>> people
>> are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound
>> system is so I
>> can price new things in my line and have the prices make sense
>> compared to
>> my other work. I weigh all my clay before throwing. I set a base
>> rate of
>> 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat
>> rate to
>> add for each addition: so much for a handle, a lid(several prices for
>> different sizes), any extra work after throwing =3DA0and trimming is
>> done. Works
>> well.
>> Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and
>> I have a
>> database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek
>> tendencies?
>> Just sayin....
>> Jennifer
>
>
> I use a system similar to Jennifer's. However, I do leave leeway for
> raising or lowing the price of an item. All of this work of cost
> analysis is just too much for my brain to do. I'm not not a numbers
> person. And, in the end I think it has little bearing on the price
> the market will accept. There's a story often told in marketing
> classes about a small snow scraper that was sold in gas station. The
> manufacturer put it out at three different prices. The manufacturer
> made a healthy profit on the cheapest price. One would think that the
> cheapest price sold best. But no. People felt if it was that cheap it
> probably wasn't any good and would break easily. The highest price
> also didn't work. Not enough value for the price. The mid-price was
> the most popular.
>
> Pricing is an art and the cost to you to make the item isn't
> necessarily going to get you the right price in the eyes of the
> buyer. Look around at what others are charging (and are they actually
> selling at that price or do the pots just sit). Look what an upscale
> gift shop charges for a similar item. Start low. You can always raise
> your price if the item moves well. But, if you lower the price you'll
> have lots of angry customers who paid the higher price.
>
> KATHI LESUEUR
> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>
--=3D20
----------------------------------------------------------
steve graber on fri 2 jul 10
a long time ago i read some similar report on pricing.=3DA0 the human perce=
pt=3D
ion that a $9.99 item=3DA0was cheaper than a $10.00 item,=3DA0 so i tend to=
put=3D
things at a whole number price rather than fall into the 99 cent store mod=
=3D
e of=3DA0 $whatever.99.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Athe same goes for a $19 item vs a $2=
0 item.=3D
=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3DA0Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont=
, California=3D
USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesome texture on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspott=
ery.=3D
com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0A=3D0AOn Laguna Clay's website=3D0Aht=
tp://www=3D
.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A----- Original Message ----=3D0A=
> From: KA=3D
THI LESUEUR =3D0A> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=
=3D0A=3D
> Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 9:08:21 AM=3D0A> Subject: Re: Pricing your work=
=3D0A>=3D
=3D0A> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Jennifer Boyer wrote:=3D0A=3D0A> I agre=
e that=3D
you =3D0A> need to pay attention to the market and what other=3D0A> people=
=3D0A>=3D
are =3D0A> charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound=3D0A>=
sys=3D
tem is so =3D0A> I=3D0A> can price new things in my line and have the price=
s ma=3D
ke sense=3D0A> =3D0A> compared to=3D0A> my other work. I weigh all my clay =
before=3D
throwing. I set a =3D0A> base=3D0A> rate of=3D0A> 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for h=
eavier=3D
work over 4 lbs. =3D0A> Then I have a flat=3D0A> rate to=3D0A> add for eac=
h addi=3D
tion: so much for a =3D0A> handle, a lid(several prices for=3D0A> different=
siz=3D
es), any extra work after =3D0A> throwing=3DA0 and trimming is=3D0A> done. =
Works=3D
=3D0A> well.=3D0A> Also =3D0A> it's easy to raise prices since I just raise=
the b=3D
ase rate and=3D0A> I have =3D0A> a=3D0A> database that gives me the new pri=
ces. D=3D
id I mention my geek=3D0A> =3D0A> tendencies?=3D0A> Just sayin....=3D0A> Je=
nnifer=3D
=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AI use a system =3D0A> similar to Jennifer's. However, I do l=
eave lee=3D
way for=3D0Araising or lowing the =3D0A> price of an item. All of this work=
of =3D
cost=3D0Aanalysis is just too much for my =3D0A> brain to do. I'm not not a=
num=3D
bers=3D0Aperson. And, in the end I think it has =3D0A> little bearing on th=
e pr=3D
ice=3D0Athe market will accept. There's a story often =3D0A> told in market=
ing=3D
=3D0Aclasses about a small snow scraper that was sold in gas =3D0A> station=
. Th=3D
e=3D0Amanufacturer put it out at three different prices. The =3D0A> manufac=
ture=3D
r=3D0Amade a healthy profit on the cheapest price. One would think =3D0A> t=
hat =3D
the=3D0Acheapest price sold best. But no. People felt if it was that cheap =
=3D
=3D0A> it=3D0Aprobably wasn't any good and would break easily. The highest =
pric=3D
e=3D0Aalso =3D0A> didn't work. Not enough value for the price. The mid-pric=
e wa=3D
s=3D0Athe most =3D0A> popular.=3D0A=3D0APricing is an art and the cost to y=
ou to ma=3D
ke the item =3D0A> isn't=3D0Anecessarily going to get you the right price i=
n th=3D
e eyes of =3D0A> the=3D0Abuyer. Look around at what others are charging (an=
d ar=3D
e they =3D0A> actually=3D0Aselling at that price or do the pots just sit). =
Look=3D
what an =3D0A> upscale=3D0Agift shop charges for a similar item. Start low=
. Yo=3D
u can always =3D0A> raise=3D0Ayour price if the item moves well. But, if yo=
u lo=3D
wer the price =3D0A> you'll=3D0Ahave lots of angry customers who paid the h=
ighe=3D
r price.=3D0A=3D0AKATHI =3D0A> LESUEUR=3D0A> >http://www.lesueurclaywork.co=
m=3D0A=3D0A=3D
=3D0A
Jennifer Boyer on fri 2 jul 10
I came up with this to match what I was already selling things for, more o=
r
less. My area had a lot of potters and there was a going rate for a lot of
things.
Base weights: pots up to 2 lbs - 12.00/lb. 2-4 lbs - 13.00/lb, 4-6 lbs -
14.00/ lb, with some up to 16.00/lb if I get a lot of seconds doing certain
shapes.
Added items: 12.00 per handle or spout. 2.00 per inch for a lid: 4 inch lid
is 8.00. I have a MISC category where I gauge the hassle factor of certain
shapes and price accordingly. I also adjust the actual price if certain
factors warrant. I charge more for certain in-demand items like mugs and
soup bowls, but charge a bit less for plates that I usually sell in sets.
Like I said, this is mainly to have some continuity in my line without
having to reinvent the wheel every time I come up with a new item. I'm doin=
g
production, not art pieces, which is a whole different thing....
I have fields in the database for adding in parts, like lamp hardware. This
database generates everything I need for my pottery in terms of lists:
consignment gallery delivery sheet, price list for customers, wholesale
receipt, throwing chart for weights and measures, etc.
Also I read software manuals for fun....just sayin'..... ;-)
Jennifer
> That's a very interesting approach. How did you come up with the figures
> for the base rate and how much to add for handles, lids etc?
>
> Lis
> --
> Elisabeth Allison
> Pine Ridge Studio
> website: www.pine-ridge.ca
> Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
> Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
>
Lis Allison on fri 2 jul 10
On July 2, 2010, you wrote:
> a long time ago i read some similar report on pricing. the human
> perception that a $9.99 item was cheaper than a $10.00 item, so i
> tend to put things at a whole number price rather than fall into the
> 99 cent store mode of $whatever.99.
>
Many moons ago I worked for a major retailer. The story I heard there was
that the .99 pricing was a code to show that the item had been marked
down. First markdown, the new price ended in .99, 2nd markdown, .98 and so
on. Maybe apocryphal but it sounded reasonable. Anybody know?
My point is that we have learned that things that end in .99, .98 etc.
have been marked down.
Cheers,
Lis
--
Elisabeth Allison
Pine Ridge Studio
website: www.pine-ridge.ca
Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
steve graber on sat 3 jul 10
when it comes to releasing products of any kind, an old expression i read i=
=3D
n ceramics monthly in the 80's comes to mind.=3DA0 "everything should=3DA0b=
e ma=3D
de, but not everything should be sold."=3D0A=3D0Ai suck at things that have=
han=3D
dles so i do not sell anything with a handle.=3DA0 i do bowls and vessles.=
=3DA0=3D
i might add a handle of sorts as an accent, but it's not functional to the=
=3D
hand.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D0Aa long time ago i did my own analysis of various thin=
gs i c=3D
ould make, how much they=3DA0"cost" me and more or less how much someone mi=
gh=3D
t buy them for.=3DA0 it was an enlightening review everyone should do somet=
im=3D
e.=3DA0 i saw that for me it was useful to do small to large bowls and smal=
l =3D
to large vessles - they would yield the highest profit.=3DA0 for freinds, b=
ir=3D
thdays, and christmas people get my crappy mugs and pitchers.=3DA0 =3D0A=3D=
0Ain t=3D
he commercial world of products it's smart to keep your product family smal=
=3D
ler.=3DA0 it's easier to maintain inventory and focus on a small controlled=
p=3D
roduct line rather than a huge matrix of things and colors.=3DA0 GM just we=
nt=3D
thru this deleting lines of cars that were similar but different from othe=
=3D
rs.=3DA0=3DA0=3D0A=3D0Aand i keep the day job........=3D0A=3D0ASteve Graber=
, Graber's P=3D
ottery, Inc=3D0AClaremont, California USA=3D0AThe Steve Tool - for awesome =
text=3D
ure on pots! =3D0Awww.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com =3D0A=3D0=
A=3D0AOn=3D
Laguna Clay's website=3D0Ahttp://www.lagunaclay.com/blogs/ =3D0A=3D0A=3D0A=
=3D0A-----=3D
Original Message ----=3D0A> From: Robert Harris =
=3D0A=3D
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=3D0A> Sent: Fri, July 2, 2010 10:12:52 AM=3D=
0A> =3D
Subject: Re: Pricing your work=3D0A> =3D0A> It seems to me that there is no=
thin=3D
g contradictory about =3D0A> Terrance's=3D0Ahard-headed business approach a=
nd P=3D
hil (and others) what the =3D0A> market=3D0Awill bear approach. Both should=
be =3D
done. If there is a =3D0A> significant=3D0Adifference between the two (in a=
neg=3D
ative way) then we are =3D0A> obviously=3D0Anot going to be able to support=
our=3D
selves.=3D0A=3D0AIn this case we =3D0A> either need to get a wealthy benefa=
ctor (=3D
spouse?) who=3D0Atakes care of our =3D0A> living expenses, mortgage etc so =
that=3D
we do not need=3D0Ato make as much money to =3D0A> live, or we need to mak=
e a =3D
better, more=3D0Adesirable product - or be able to =3D0A> make the same pro=
duct=3D
faster.=3D0A=3D0AIf one's product is not desirable because =3D0A> our arti=
stic m=3D
use is not in=3D0Alines with our society's values then you need to =3D0A> m=
ake =3D
some compromises=3D0Aartistically. On the other hand if you make lumpy mug =
=3D
=3D0A> (or a very nice=3D0Amug very slowly) then you need to get a differen=
t jo=3D
b and =3D0A> spend all=3D0Ayour free time practicing, practicing, practicin=
g, u=3D
ntil you =3D0A> can=3D0Aproduce something the market wants. Or get a wealth=
y =3D
=3D0A> benefactor.=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Larry Kruzan on sat 3 jul 10
The one true test if you are overpriced - did your work sell at the price
you asked, in the amount you expected and during the time frame you
expected?
Set a price and if you accept that an item will sell for that price in one
week, but it is still on the shelf in 30 days - you might be too high for
the market. If it sold in one hour, you MIGHT be on the too cheap side. The
challenge is calculating just how much off the ideal price you may be.
After my back injury I was unable to produce the same volume I had in the
past so my production cost per piece climbed appreciably. At the same time =
I
made a major advance in technique which also added to an increase in
production cost per piece. Because my base price schedule is computerized,
raising prices was easy but the indicated (via computer analysis) increase
was much higher than I thought the traffic would bare.
After trying the new levels it was about half and half. About half of the
items I repriced are doing well - mostly the under $20 "bread and butter"
items. The $85 and up items are frozen. These I will be adjusting this
weekend, in a downward direction until they begin to sell again.
The tough part of this is knowing if the drop in high end sales is due to
general economic constraints or is it the result of my over-pricing these
items? The current economic environment has to be significant - determining
the amount of influence is the third hardest part.
Bonnie mentioned the difference between a hobbyist and a business person -
the past 2 years have been difficult and there were several quarters when I
slipped from businessman to hobbyist. The goal has been the same but result=
s
have been mixed.
As the economy very slowly improves over the next two years, my goal is to
be found working, watching and taking care of business as it comes back.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Lee Love
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 7:27 PM
To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG.
Subject: Re: Pricing your work
My teacher's Japanese apprentices got the price list from the
apprentice that graduated before them to use as prices for their
graduation show. My teacher thought my graduation show prices were
high. He didn't take into account that I had been selling pots for
13 years.
--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mingeisota.blogspot.com/
"Observe the wonders as they occur around you. Don't claim them. Feel
the artistry moving through and be silent." --Rumi
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found.
(Email Guard: 7.0.0.18, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.15350)
http://www.pctools.com/
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Daniel Rotblatt on sat 3 jul 10
I was told by an employee at Sears that the last two digits indicated
sale prices, items that were closeout, etc. Don't remember the
numbers but it didn't appear to be any secret. I'm sure many stores
use a similar system.
In regards to the psychology, I had always thought that the 9.99 item
was perceived as less expensive then the 10.00 item rather then
cheaper. The brain tends to discount the cents and only look at the
dollar value. I suspect that was the reason for originally dropping
the price .01, although at this point it may be perceived as "cheaper."
Dan
On Jul 2, 2010, at 6:11 PM, Lis Allison wrote:
> On July 2, 2010, you wrote:
>> a long time ago i read some similar report on pricing. the human
>> perception that a $9.99 item was cheaper than a $10.00 item, so i
>> tend to put things at a whole number price rather than fall into the
>> 99 cent store mode of $whatever.99.
>>
> Many moons ago I worked for a major retailer. The story I heard
> there was
> that the .99 pricing was a code to show that the item had been marked
> down. First markdown, the new price ended in .99, 2nd markdown, .98
> and so
> on. Maybe apocryphal but it sounded reasonable. Anybody know?
>
> My point is that we have learned that things that end in .99, .98 etc.
> have been marked down.
>
> Cheers,
> Lis
>
> --
> Elisabeth Allison
> Pine Ridge Studio
> website: www.pine-ridge.ca
> Pottery blog: www.studio-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
> Garden blog: www.garden-on-the-ridge.blogspot.com
Fisher Cheryl on sat 3 jul 10
Correction: I left a few letters out. I meant to say These are the full =
=3D
priced books, unless the store is running a discount.=3D20
Cheryl Fisher
potterytalk@verizon.net
Sarasota, FL USA
On Jul 3, 2010, at 4:01 PM, Fisher Cheryl wrote:
I work at one of the three major big box book stores. Books are usually =3D
priced ending in .00, example $35.00; .99 example $25.99; .95 example =3D
$24.95. Full priced books are labeled Key 01 (mass market paperbacks) or =
=3D
Key 04 (all other books from trade paper and hardbacks. se are the full =3D
priced books, unless the store is running a discount. The Sale books are =
=3D
labeled Key 05 whether they are mass market, trade paper or hardbacks. =3D
If a book is on sale then usually there is a special sticker and prices =3D
end in .00, example $1.00; .97 example $3.97; and sometimes .98 example =3D
$2.98. Sale books usually have a black marker marked across the outside =3D
edges of the bottom pages.We may have the same title in full price and =3D
various discount prices. Sale books are overstocked books, books we no =3D
longer carry in the regular sections.
Cheryl Fisher
potterytalk@verizon.net
Sarasota, FL USA
Fisher Cheryl on sat 3 jul 10
I work at one of the three major big box book stores. Books are usually =3D
priced ending in .00, example $35.00; .99 example $25.99; .95 example =3D
$24.95. Full priced books are labeled Key 01 (mass market paperbacks) or =
=3D
Key 04 (all other books from trade paper and hardbacks. se are the full =3D
priced books, unless the store is running a discount. The Sale books are =
=3D
labeled Key 05 whether they are mass market, trade paper or hardbacks. =3D
If a book is on sale then usually there is a special sticker and prices =3D
end in .00, example $1.00; .97 example $3.97; and sometimes .98 example =3D
$2.98. Sale books usually have a black marker marked across the outside =3D
edges of the bottom pages.We may have the same title in full price and =3D
various discount prices. Sale books are overstocked books, books we no =3D
longer carry in the regular sections.
Cheryl Fisher
potterytalk@verizon.net
Sarasota, FL USA
Michael Wendt on sun 4 jul 10
Pricing your work without doing basic cost accounting is a
huge mistake.
For seven years from 1973 until 1980, I tracked every cost
including time, materials, repairs, replacement cost and
profit and
developed a clear picture of the minimum price needed to
allow me to stay in business and make a living. By the early
80s, as we started our family, I was able to cover the cost
of medical insurance, IRA, having 2 kids and growing into a
new studio which I still occupy today.
Bottom line:
No one who is depending on pottery to make a living can
afford to price solely by charging what others charge.
Your costs will be unique to you and if you expect to stay
in business, you better know that you are not making pots
below cost.
Beyond that, I prefer to charge prices that move work while
still making a living.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Jennifer Boyer on mon 5 jul 10
HI Michael,
This is interesting. I looked at your website and in New England terms, you=
r
pricing is very cheap. Your retail is almost what I get when I sell on
consignment. 13.80 for a mug is unheard of in my area. Is this kind of
pricing the norm for other potters in your area?
Jennifer
On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Michael Wendt wrote:
> Pricing your work without doing basic cost accounting is a
> huge mistake.
> For seven years from 1973 until 1980, I tracked every cost
> including time, materials, repairs, replacement cost and
> profit and
> developed a clear picture of the minimum price needed to
> allow me to stay in business and make a living. By the early
> 80s, as we started our family, I was able to cover the cost
> of medical insurance, IRA, having 2 kids and growing into a
> new studio which I still occupy today.
>
> Bottom line:
>
>
phil on tue 6 jul 10
There is no such thing as 'profit' technically nor correctly figuratively
even, in an
Artisan's or Crasftman's endevors, remunerations, recompenses.
Profit is gain for re-selling something someone else made or produced, minu=
s
the costs incurred to do so.
Profit is an outcome of investment, not of Labor.
Wages, or mutable remunieration for Labor/Skill, in producing an object or =
a
service, are not 'profit'.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bonnie Hellman"
> And I would add (writing as a CPA, business advisor, tax preparer) that i=
f
> the price at which an item will sell is not high enough to cover all of
> the
> seller's costs (cost of materials, firing, the wage you require per hour,
> packaging, selling, etc.) then if your goal is to make a profit, you
> should
> not be selling this item.
>
> I'm sure there are exceptions, such as you sell it because people who buy
> it
> ALSO buy very profitable items. However if you are running a business,
> your
> prices need to provide you with net INCOME, as compared to net loss. If
> you
> are earning an hourly rate that is too low, then you need to make changes=
.
>
> The IRS expects you to demonstrate that you are TRYING to make a profit.
>
> That is the IRS definition of a business: one that tries to make money. A
> hobby (as we all know) does not have a profit motive. For our hobbies, we
> buy what we like, want and (hopefully) can afford, just because we enjoy
> our
> hobbies. If we sell what we produce, then we have additional money to
> spend.
> We'd like to cover our direct costs, and if we aren't paid for our time
> and
> effort, we don't particularly care.
>
> If we want to run a social services company, we may feel that we should
> sell
> our work at the lowest possible prices to sustain our existence. Thi=
s
> does not mean that we shouldn't help others or be generous. Even
> businesses
> make charitable contributions! But if you are asking how to price your
> work
> because you want to make a profit, you can go through the numerical
> analysis
> to a greater or lesser extent, but the "fair market price" by definition
> is
> the price a willing buyer will pay a willing seller in an "arm's length
> transaction." This pricing is the art that Kathi leSueur wrote about
> (copied below).
>
> Bonnie
>
> Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
> Ouray, CO 81427
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of KATHI LESUEU=
R
> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:08 AM
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Pricing your work
>
> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Jennifer Boyer wrote:
>
>> I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other
>> people
>> are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound
>> system is so I
>> can price new things in my line and have the prices make sense
>> compared to
>> my other work. I weigh all my clay before throwing. I set a base
>> rate of
>> 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat
>> rate to
>> add for each addition: so much for a handle, a lid(several prices for
>> different sizes), any extra work after throwing and trimming is
>> done. Works
>> well.
>> Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and
>> I have a
>> database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek
>> tendencies?
>> Just sayin....
>> Jennifer
>
>
> I use a system similar to Jennifer's. However, I do leave leeway for
> raising or lowing the price of an item. All of this work of cost
> analysis is just too much for my brain to do. I'm not not a numbers
> person. And, in the end I think it has little bearing on the price
> the market will accept. There's a story often told in marketing
> classes about a small snow scraper that was sold in gas station. The
> manufacturer put it out at three different prices. The manufacturer
> made a healthy profit on the cheapest price. One would think that the
> cheapest price sold best. But no. People felt if it was that cheap it
> probably wasn't any good and would break easily. The highest price
> also didn't work. Not enough value for the price. The mid-price was
> the most popular.
>
> Pricing is an art and the cost to you to make the item isn't
> necessarily going to get you the right price in the eyes of the
> buyer. Look around at what others are charging (and are they actually
> selling at that price or do the pots just sit). Look what an upscale
> gift shop charges for a similar item. Start low. You can always raise
> your price if the item moves well. But, if you lower the price you'll
> have lots of angry customers who paid the higher price.
>
> KATHI LESUEUR
> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
No virus found in this incoming message.
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11:35:00
Steve Slatin on tue 6 jul 10
Phil -- there are many definitions of profit.
Consider the question from Mark --
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose=
his own soul?"
This is clearly not a reference to merchantilism, as you
suggest. Certainly that is one way that the word "profit"
may be used. But it is hardly the only way that it can
be used. In accounting, in tax law, and in common usage
there's no restriction on the use of the word to resale
events.
Best -- Steve S
--- On Tue, 7/6/10, phil wrote:
> There is no such thing as 'profit'
> technically nor correctly figuratively
> even, in an
> Artisan's or Crasftman's endevors, remunerations,
> recompenses.
>
>
> Profit is gain for re-selling something someone else made
> or produced, minus
> the costs incurred to do so.
>
> Profit is an outcome of investment, not of Labor.
>
> Wages, or mutable remunieration for Labor/Skill, in
> producing an object or a
> service, are not 'profit'.
>
James Freeman on wed 7 jul 10
Phil...
I do understand what you are saying, and on a certain level I can
agree with it. There is, however, another way to look at the
situation:
Let's assume that the best wage I can find in the free market given my
unique combination of brains, brawn, temperament, and locale is $16
per hour assembling widgets at the local manufactory. That is, the
free market values me as a worker at $16 per hour. I give up my
assembly job and devote myself to producing and selling pots, whereby,
after expenses, I net what works out to be $24 per hour.
Under your view there is no profit; I simply earned a $24 per hour
wage as a potter versus my $16 wage as a laborer. A cleaner way to
look at the situation however, and more useful from an accounting,
planning, and evaluative perspective, is to recognize the market wage
for my labor as the same $16 per hour I could earn elsewhere, and the
extra $8 per hour as profit to my "business". This is a fairer way to
look at the situation, in that one could make a strong case that the
extra $8 per hour was not the result of me working any harder than I
did as a laborer, but rather accrued as a result of the risk I assumed
as a business person, which risk I did not bear as a laborer. Another
useful way to look at this is that I earned the same $16 per hour free
market rate for my labor, and earned the additional money as a
salesman, bookkeeper, financier, et cetera. In any case, since you
are doing so many more things and assuming so many more risks as a
business owner than you did as a wage earner, it is not particularly
useful to attribute all of the extra income to labor.
Sorry, just the crass, cold, calculating, evil capitalist finance
major businessman in me. Can't help it!
BTW, Phil, are you familiar with a product from the 1970s called the
Improved #7 Bunab? I own two of them, serial numbers 36177 and 36178.
I don't know why, but they make me think of you.
All the best.
...James
James Freeman
"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I
should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/resources
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 6:06 AM, phil wrote:
> There is no such thing as 'profit' technically nor correctly figuratively
> even, in an
> Artisan's or Crasftman's endevors, remunerations, recompenses.
>
>
> Profit is gain for re-selling something someone else made or produced, mi=
=3D
nus
> the costs incurred to do so.
>
> Profit is an outcome of investment, not of Labor.
>
> Wages, or mutable remunieration for Labor/Skill, in producing an object o=
=3D
r a
> service, are not 'profit'.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bonnie Hellman"
>
>
>> And I would add (writing as a CPA, business advisor, tax preparer) that =
=3D
if
>> the price at which an item will sell is not high enough to cover all of
>> the
>> seller's costs (cost of materials, firing, the wage you require per hour=
=3D
,
>> packaging, selling, etc.) then if your goal is to make a profit, you
>> should
>> not be selling this item.
>>
>> I'm sure there are exceptions, such as you sell it because people who bu=
=3D
y
>> it
>> ALSO buy very profitable items. However if you are running a business,
>> your
>> prices need to provide you with net INCOME, as compared to net loss. If
>> you
>> are earning an hourly rate that is too low, then you need to make change=
=3D
s.
>>
>> The IRS expects you to demonstrate that you are TRYING to make a profit.
>>
>> That is the IRS definition of a business: one that tries to make money. =
=3D
A
>> hobby (as we all know) does not have a profit motive. For our hobbies, w=
=3D
e
>> buy what we like, want and (hopefully) can afford, just because we enjoy
>> our
>> hobbies. If we sell what we produce, then we have additional money to
>> spend.
>> We'd like to cover our direct costs, and if we aren't paid for our time
>> and
>> effort, we don't particularly care.
>>
>> If we want to run a social services company, we may feel that we should
>> sell
>> our work at the lowest possible prices to sustain our existence. =3DA0> =3D
This
>> does not mean that we shouldn't help others or be generous. Even
>> businesses
>> make charitable contributions! =3DA0But if you are asking how to price y=
ou=3D
r
>> work
>> because you want to make a profit, you can go through the numerical
>> analysis
>> to a greater or lesser extent, but the "fair market price" by definition
>> is
>> the price a willing buyer will pay a willing seller in an "arm's length
>> transaction." This pricing is the art that Kathi =3DA0leSueur wrote abou=
t
>> (copied below).
>>
>> Bonnie
>>
>> Bonnie D. Hellman, CPA
>> Ouray, CO 81427
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Clayart [mailto:Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of KATHI LESUE=
=3D
UR
>> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 10:08 AM
>> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>> Subject: Re: Pricing your work
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Jennifer Boyer wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that you need to pay attention to the market and what other
>>> people
>>> are charging for their work. The only reason I have a $/pound
>>> system is so I
>>> can price new things in my line and have the prices make sense
>>> compared to
>>> my other work. I weigh all my clay before throwing. I set a base
>>> rate of
>>> 13-14 $/lb. 14$ is for heavier work over 4 lbs. Then I have a flat
>>> rate to
>>> add for each addition: so much for a handle, a lid(several prices for
>>> different sizes), any extra work after throwing =3DA0and trimming is
>>> done. Works
>>> well.
>>> Also it's easy to raise prices since I just raise the base rate and
>>> I have a
>>> database that gives me the new prices. Did I mention my geek
>>> tendencies?
>>> Just sayin....
>>> Jennifer
>>
>>
>> I use a system similar to Jennifer's. However, I do leave leeway for
>> raising or lowing the price of an item. All of this work of cost
>> analysis is just too much for my brain to do. I'm not not a numbers
>> person. And, in the end I think it has little bearing on the price
>> the market will accept. There's a story often told in marketing
>> classes about a small snow scraper that was sold in gas station. The
>> manufacturer put it out at three different prices. The manufacturer
>> made a healthy profit on the cheapest price. One would think that the
>> cheapest price sold best. But no. People felt if it was that cheap it
>> probably wasn't any good and would break easily. The highest price
>> also didn't work. Not enough value for the price. The mid-price was
>> the most popular.
>>
>> Pricing is an art and the cost to you to make the item isn't
>> necessarily going to get you the right price in the eyes of the
>> buyer. Look around at what others are charging (and are they actually
>> selling at that price or do the pots just sit). Look what an upscale
>> gift shop charges for a similar item. Start low. You can always raise
>> your price if the item moves well. But, if you lower the price you'll
>> have lots of angry customers who paid the higher price.
>>
>> KATHI LESUEUR
>> http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
-------
>
>
>
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phil on sun 11 jul 10
Hi James, all...
Below...amid...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Freeman"
>
>
> Phil...
>
> I do understand what you are saying, and on a certain level I can
> agree with it. There is, however, another way to look at the
> situation:
>
> Let's assume that the best wage I can find in the free market given my
> unique combination of brains, brawn, temperament, and locale is $16
> per hour assembling widgets at the local manufactory. That is, the
> free market values me as a worker at $16 per hour. I give up my
> assembly job and devote myself to producing and selling pots, whereby,
> after expenses, I net what works out to be $24 per hour.
If I exchange my Labor, which means also all what go with that for
accompanying skill, judgement, experience, attitude, effeciency, that I eve=
n
showed up at all, or whatever
else, and or depending on conditions imposed...if I exchange my Labor for
recompense/remuneration, it is an exchange which is
occuring.
The employer or Wage payer has to 'earn' what he gets from me, with the
recompense I am promised or understand to represent the agreement or terms
of the
exchange.
There is a Quid pro Quo.
People seem to focus entirely on Wages, and as Wages being something
'earned' , in a sort of
one-dimensional quantification of lop-sided preoccupation, with little
regard of the value assigned or by whom, as being then thought of
as income, while
forgetting entirely what is being exchanged for both partys, as out-go, and
in-come both.
Both parties receive in-come, both partys have their out-go.
Out-go for the Wage 'earner' is a form of in-come for the Wage Payer, if no=
t
in dollars, of course.
There is no such thing as 'profit' in this condition for the Wage recipient=
,
or Wage 'earner'.
Even if there may be in an attenuated sense, a 'profit' for the Wage payer
in so far as
the Wage payer receives typically, a greater value in the exchange, than th=
e
Wage
recipient.
> Under your view there is no profit; I simply earned a $24 per hour
> wage as a potter versus my $16 wage as a laborer.
There was no profit.
Probably, it is even reasonable to say, that you earned nothing.
Or, the Wager payer 'earned' what you gave?
You made a trade...you made an exchange...as did whoever was paying.
'Earned' is a very misleading notion which tends to imagine only one
quantified dimension, of one side of the equation, tinged with some moral
quality...a sort of plaintive
position.
Nobody earns anything...there are exchanges, transactions and the terms and
conditions thereof.
Forget 'earn'...it is misleading...and or a wash.
Hs the IRS 'earned' the income they receive?
> A cleaner way to
> look at the situation however, and more useful from an accounting,
> planning, and evaluative perspective, is to recognize the market wage
> for my labor as the same $16 per hour I could earn elsewhere, and the
> extra $8 per hour as profit to my "business". This is a fairer way to
> look at the situation, in that one could make a strong case that the
> extra $8 per hour was not the result of me working any harder than I
> did as a laborer, but rather accrued as a result of the risk I assumed
> as a business person, which risk I did not bear as a laborer.
One can constructively participate in the electing the conditions which
qualify the values assigned to things being exchanged.
Profit ( to my mind ) is a gain realized, for selling or trading an
investment or speculative venture condition.
The phrase 'Capital Gains' is roughly what the term 'Profit' should mean - =
a
windfall or other unambiguous gain, for an unambiguous investment or
speculative hold, being sold
or traded for clearly more than it had cost to own or have.
This gets tricky though under the circumstances of inflation...as for
whether any 'gain' or 'profit' actually occurred at all from such a sale,
when held over a long time.
Wages or transactions of equilateral ( roughly ) recompense...trades or
exchanges of roughly
co-lateral value commodities/services/other, are not 'profit' conditions.
> Another
> useful way to look at this is that I earned the same $16 per hour free
> market rate for my labor, and earned the additional money as a
> salesman, bookkeeper, financier, et cetera. In any case, since you
> are doing so many more things and assuming so many more risks as a
> business owner than you did as a wage earner, it is not particularly
> useful to attribute all of the extra income to labor.
Yes.
None the less, on each side of the equation, are the lists one could
compose, of what is being
exchanged for what, and, the values one assigns to these respectively...and=
,
the mutable conditions which qualify assignemtns
of value, to those things represented in the respective Lists.
> Sorry, just the crass, cold, calculating, evil capitalist finance
> major businessman in me. Can't help it!
Someone once said, "Life...is a combination of the given, and, the
construed..."
I think what they actually meant, is that human experience, is conditioned
in the confluence of what is accepted as 'given', and,
what is construed, and how these two effect eachother, and effect our
thinking, perception, ways of knowing, ways of making sense of things and
events.
Anymore, I feel we do well to carefully question any 'given', and, also, to
look carefully at what has been construed on the basis of the 'givens'...an=
d
by whom, for the construed things themselves to become 'givens' in turn.
> BTW, Phil, are you familiar with a product from the 1970s called the
> Improved #7 Bunab? I own two of them, serial numbers 36177 and 36178.
> I don't know why, but they make me think of you.
I do not know anything about that.
I will look into it. ( Looked into it briefly and I could not make any sens=
e
of it ).
Though I once passed up a two inch piece of the first successful
Trans-Atlantic
Telegraaph Cable...lain by the Deep Water Side-Wheeler & Srew propelled
Steamship, 'The Great Eastern', which had been designed by Isambard Kingdom
Brunell.
It was attacthed to a small, greyish-bluish White ornamentally printed
Pasteboard Card...frayed
on the corners.
I saw it when I was twelve I think...at the San Jose Flea Market...1965.
It was $3.00
It has haunted me ever since.
The Poor Great Eastern...such a 'Shining Star', so amazing an Engineering
acheivement, yet, she did not fare so
well.
Blow her a Kiss...long gone though she is...
No one passed her up for a couple generations...
> All the best.
>
> ...James
>
> James Freeman
Phil
Lv
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