Sherry mcDonald Stewart on fri 9 may 97
Help! Am I going crazy? Or is it just me! (smile) Does anyone else have
a problem with this...
When it comes to working with children, I really have a lot of
sensitivity to who they are, and what they have to offer, I learn with
them. I set up situations where they get a chance to feel they are
discovering things themselves. I find this very gratifying, whether it
is down at Myrtle Edwards Park in Seattle on the 4th of July, beginning
small sculptures on the beach, and having kids come up and say,"What
are you doing?" And MOms, say, "What are you doing?" And men with hats
saying, "here, use this to gather stuff in!" And before long," we," have
built one sculpture after another getting larger and larger as we go and
learn and explore the materials and forms we're creating, just in time
to watch the tide come in and wash it all out., or whether it is
building a seesaw on Whidbey Island with the kids, a real moveable,
usable, beautiful sculpture that we ride as the sun sets, and others
enjoy as a piece of art on the beach...so many other examples
I just do understand that parents might be product oriented, but I
think it is just some kind of mistake to lead people on in that
direction and call it art! The kids and parents I've worked with both
learn. The kids come out learning how to think, how to trouble shoot
firing problems in sawdust , how to mine clay, how to make their own
frames for paper making. I just basically help them learn enough that
they can explore on their own,and to share what they've learned with
friends, because they are turned on! I am not that product oriented, and
it bothers me to see it being so prevelent and spreading. I see art in
summer workshops in just about every community, it's approach is to make
fast art, ready to hang on the wall in 20 minutes.(someone is making
$$$) It has nothing to do really with the exploration of materials and
self, there is no time to think, only to produce. It bothers me! So
there...anyone else?Go ahead, hit me hard! I'm ready!
Cheryl L Litman on sat 10 may 97
I teach kids in a freelance situation in several locations and I've run
into the same thing with not only parents expectations but the kids as
well. Too many want everything to happen with no effort on their part.
A small minority are willing to put some effort into a project. I can't
get most of them to slow down and perfect something. They want me to do
it for them because they want the end product to look better than what
they are capable of. They don't want to repeat a skill to practice it.
I'm struggling with how to teach as well as what to present to keep their
interest. I'm usually pretty psyched myself for each class, so I'm
disappointed when my enthusiasm doesn't always motivate the kids. I know
I'm choosing projects within their ability level.
Last summer I had a 4 year old cry every time we started a project. When
asked what's wrong he says "I know I won't be able to do it right". I
also do a lot of parent/child classes and too many parents won't just let
the kid explore the materials and learn for themselves, they're told "let
me do it for you" or "you're not doing it right". I have one mother now
who keeps painting over her 4 year old daughter's projects because the
daughter didn't paint it good enough. How do I change that without
insulting the parent? Another parent wants her daughter to start her
project over because it doesn't look just like the majority of the other
kids - her daughter is 6 and the others are 9. Until Mom said that the
kid was totally into her painting. I tried to pull Mom aside and tell
her to just let her daughter keep going but she was adamant that it
should look like the older kids - actually I liked hers better because it
was different, the older kids were playing it safe and copying each
others. Another mother wouldn't let her daughter come to part 2 of a
workshop to finish a self portrait because it didn't look very good, the
girl is 5 and is heartbroken that she can't finish the project and take
it home.
How do I balance wanting to teach art with the parents expecting a quick
craft project which looks good. I can't believe either how many kids
don't want to get their hands dirty. If I had a nickel for every time
they asked to wash their hands, I'd be rich. How can I teach the way I
want and still have the kids enjoy it and the parents want to keep paying
me? I had 2 kids recently who came in to my class (separate incidents)
saying "this had better be good - my Mom's paying good money for this!".
I charge $8/hr.
I showed pictures of Joman pots, we talked about how "funky" they are and
to my surprise the 5 & 6 year olds made beautiful pots in the Joman
style. The 8-9 year olds all wanted to make little heart shaped pinch
pots! I showed beautiful color pictures of African masks and 6 out of 7
opted to make kitty cats - only one used the African masks as a spring
board and made a very imaginative mask. Do I forbid the cats?
Any guidance would be appreciated.
Charlotte Green on sat 10 may 97
Hi Sherry,
I'm a production potter who also teaches. My kids class, ages 6-10, has been
a challenge as well as a learning experience for me as well. They love
pushing that mud around and squishing their hands in the slurry bowl. I love
that feeling too and can relate. The parents, on the other hand, want to see
what they made - "when will my Jonnie's stuff be ready?" and on and on. The
kids don't really care when, they just love the whole process. Unfortunately
the parents want to see results for their money. Too bad. They should come
to class and get pleasure out of seeing their kids so creative and happy.
Charlotte
PotterChar@aol.com
Jeremy/Bonnie Hellman on sun 11 may 97
Cheryl- What a poignant posting--and then the parents don't understand
why their kids won't try.
We always said to our girls a saying that works beautifully at all ages
and stages--
"When you are the artist, you can do it any way you want." Maybe this
little phrase should be posted in the studio.
If the sky is orange, and the nose is where some people expect to find
the ear, and the cup is not any recognizable geometric shape, that's not
a problem. When you are the artist, you can make it any way you want. If
someone criticizes your work you can tell them that you are the artist
and that is the way you wanted it.
Bonnie Hellman in Pittsburgh
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I teach kids in a freelance situation in several locations and I've run
>into the same thing with not only parents expectations but the kids as
>well. Too many want everything to happen with no effort on their part.
>A small minority are willing to put some effort into a project. I can't
>get most of them to slow down and perfect something. They want me to do
>it for them because they want the end product to look better than what
>they are capable of. They don't want to repeat a skill to practice it.
>I'm struggling with how to teach as well as what to present to keep their
>interest. I'm usually pretty psyched myself for each class, so I'm
>disappointed when my enthusiasm doesn't always motivate the kids. I know
>I'm choosing projects within their ability level.
>
>Last summer I had a 4 year old cry every time we started a project. When
>asked what's wrong he says "I know I won't be able to do it right". I
>also do a lot of parent/child classes and too many parents won't just let
>the kid explore the materials and learn for themselves, they're told "let
>me do it for you" or "you're not doing it right". I have one mother now
>who keeps painting over her 4 year old daughter's projects because the
>daughter didn't paint it good enough. How do I change that without
>insulting the parent? Another parent wants her daughter to start her
>project over because it doesn't look just like the majority of the other
>kids - her daughter is 6 and the others are 9. Until Mom said that the
>kid was totally into her painting. I tried to pull Mom aside and tell
>her to just let her daughter keep going but she was adamant that it
>should look like the older kids - actually I liked hers better because it
>was different, the older kids were playing it safe and copying each
>others. Another mother wouldn't let her daughter come to part 2 of a
>workshop to finish a self portrait because it didn't look very good, the
>girl is 5 and is heartbroken that she can't finish the project and take
>it home.
>
>How do I balance wanting to teach art with the parents expecting a quick
>craft project which looks good. I can't believe either how many kids
>don't want to get their hands dirty. If I had a nickel for every time
>they asked to wash their hands, I'd be rich. How can I teach the way I
>want and still have the kids enjoy it and the parents want to keep paying
>me? I had 2 kids recently who came in to my class (separate incidents)
>saying "this had better be good - my Mom's paying good money for this!".
>I charge $8/hr.
>
>I showed pictures of Joman pots, we talked about how "funky" they are and
>to my surprise the 5 & 6 year olds made beautiful pots in the Joman
>style. The 8-9 year olds all wanted to make little heart shaped pinch
>pots! I showed beautiful color pictures of African masks and 6 out of 7
>opted to make kitty cats - only one used the African masks as a spring
>board and made a very imaginative mask. Do I forbid the cats?
>
>Any guidance would be appreciated.
"Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes!" Capt. J. Kirk
"Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too
dark to read" Groucho Marx
" " Harpo Marx
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like an avocado" Att. to GM
CFisher995@aol.com on sun 11 may 97
As I read I flash back to the beginning of this year when I was teaching an
afterschool class. Actually I teach full time art in a public school but I
also teach after school classes at the same school too. Have not had negative
responses except for the first class this year. I had one parent come in at
the end of the class. I also had another parent and a fellow teacher in there
(whose child was taking the class). The first parent looked at their child's
work, whic was supposed to be a bank - animal (I don't want to say piggy bank
because they weren't piggoes or any particular animal that everyone had to
do). He had restarted the legs several times and pulled them off. So he had a
body and the head. She was highly insulted because his looked like a "rock".
Why wasn't his as good as everyone else's? and so on and so on. I told her I
had been around helping everyone. She said if I couldn't handle that many
kids I shouldn't be doing it ...da.da.da. Actually there was 12 kids in the
class and I've handle as many as 36-40 in my regular classes. So she went on
and on. I was mortified because she was doiung this in front of the other
parent, teacher and the kids. I was embarassed for myself to beging with.
Then it hit my really hard - how insulting she was being to her child saying
it looked like a rock. Actually it did but when it was decorated it looked
fine - not perfect like the parent wanted. I talked to the child privately
and he was satisfied with it. He had worked hard on it. So the product was
more important to this parent that the child working with his hands and
developing skills. Luckily that's been the only parent so far in the after
school classes.
Cheryl,
Sarasota, FL
Sherry mcDonald Stewart on sun 11 may 97
My first experience with kids that were frustrated by art was in a
school where they were trying to have parents volunteer to teach art,
because that is the only way they got it. Unfortunately, and as is often
the case, the wrong people were in charge. I, too, witnessed children
crying, and feeling frustrated over projects that were not art, just
craft projects, but which set up a situation where kids would compare,
and they had to do a specific thing.
I think it was this experience that taught me. I am very sensitive to
others, and I just knew this was not the way, and the difference was the
ability to be sensitive. I taught adult contination classes too, and I
learned so much from those experiences, how to reach adults. I am very
grateful for the experience I have had, and I feel that I have been able
to learn from observing these people, as to what their needs are.
With kids, I think it is important to get them relaxed right away. I do
this by setting up a situation where they will learn, and discover. For
example, I seat 4 kids at a table, (never put 4 boys together)with a pie
tin of paint with primary colors, and white. They begin painting, and
soon, one realizes the colors are changing, they are creating colors!
the excitement spreads, the kids all make different colors, and discover
pastels, too. (boys 4 at a table will time and again make brown faster
than anything you have ever seen) The relationship between you and the
kids is established. They will trust you.
With clay, I have them make a turtle, because in the making of a
turtle, we make a pinch pot for the shell, coils for the body and legs,
and a slab for the belly. This way they have learned the 3 methods of
hand building. The clay I've used for this is the self hardening kind.
I still recommend searching for the book, Discovering art through craft
by Elwin Richardson. It is this type of approach that works best, one
where you are not teaching, but setting up opportunities for people to
discover, and a relationship that is less teacher and student oriented
as it is a cooperative learning together. A guide I suppose is what you
become. I learn tremendous things from others, it is so exciting to work
in this way. It is challenging, you have to use all your senses and be
innovative. What we do best anyway, right?
As far as forbidding cats goes, I think the beginning approach would be
better just to have something like the turtle,and not show pictures,
don't give them much time to think about what they will make, teach them
technique first. That is how we did it in my first ceramics class in
college (no turtle, just the techniques) I also give a lesson on the box
turtle when I do this, i try to tie things together to a braoder
context, include science, or literature, history, so they can see how
art connects with things that they are curious about or will have to
learn in school. I want to make education look fun, because learning is
fun! I really work to create this positive attitude.
As far as throwing clay goes, I always honor the kids desire to throw,
but I tell them , "There is something to be learned from throwing clay,
for instance, I can make a slab by throwing clay down like this,( and I
show them,) they like me, because I am not their teacher saying, "don't
throw clay!" BUT, I tell them that so and so is donating the clay, and
we only have so much, so we aren't going to throw this clay. They never
have given me any trouble about this. Never! I always have an excellent
rapport with the kids, so much so that I guess that is why the product
orientation bothers me. We just take time, and experience, and these
"carnivals," take the kids on a ride, and take the parents money.
Concerning the parents, if you have a sheet made out saying what you are
doing everyday, I think it helps explain your ideas to them, and since
they are learning, too, this is a great way to show you have a plan, but
it is braod! I send a homework sheet home too, and they never come
without their homework, as is the case in regular school. If we are
building (and I always have kids build their own frames for papermaking)
then I assign them to bring flower petals, confetti, whatever they think
will work in paper, for example) The parents see their enthusiam, and
involvement. last summer I had one parent who said that her son was
always withdrawn, and he was coming out of his shell in this camp that I
was doing. Unfortunately, the other person was a teacher, and she even
tried to boss me around! I let kids wander off, and drift back, i don't
try to control them. I will get their interest, I am confident. Teachers
want to control too much I think.
Art progranms in schools do this learning about artist thing where
they pick one picture to teach the kids about, and i disagree with this
technique too. I think it is best to show kids many pictures, and let
them pick the ones they want to set up around the room, and have them to
look at, and ask about. they will be more interested if they have a
choice, of course.
But, I am not making any money doing any of this, so, maybe I am not
the best person to ask, I just know satisfaction when I see it. The camp
last summer involved my concepts, and planning, I worked with kids for a
couple weeks only, in a week, we built frames for paper, made paper,
built kilns, learned about art history via baskets filled with clay and
fired in sawdust, and did nonsense poetry and made a book. The next we
experimented more. the other person did drama. I left then, and the
teacher took over, they put on a play, and I guess they continued the
use of the kilns and frames for paper.
It was a thing for money, but there weren't enough kids for two people
to make money, so I just let her take over. I feel that I enabled the
kids to have tools to work with, materials and tools, that is really all
they need! By doing so, I enabled them to share their knowledge with
their parents and friends, and to love exploring freely. How can I
contribute more than that? I need to make money too, but for some
reason, I am not motivated by it. Does anyone do anything really broad
with kids , like take them on field trips, etc. I would be interested in
this, but don't know what kind of problems would be created with
transportation.
Cummings Pottery on sun 11 may 97
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:23:58 EDT
From: Cheryl L Litman
Subject:
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Aaagh yes, the kitty-cat mask. Know it well. I also teach kid classes, and
can understand your frustrations. Process vs. product, parents expectations
vs. kids........ I guess I have been lucky, because I seem to manage to
actually teach the kids some skills, while they are enjoying themselves, and
the parents seem happy. Maybe some of my "tricks of the trade" will help
you .
First of all, when the kids get off the school bus (grades k-2, 3-5)
they run like demons down my long dirt drive to the studio. They whoop and
holler, throw their bread crusts and apple cores from their lunch to the
donkeys, then come panting into the studio absolutely famished. I have food
waiting - popcorn, cut up fruit, cold water. I just add the cost of the
snacks to my class costs ($10/hour class, the art school I go through takes
30%).
We visit with each other, talk about our day, wait for everyone to
arrive. These kids have been in school all day, they need some one on one
attention, and some transition time before they can get down to it. By the
time we are ready to go, the kids are eager.
Each week we tackle a project that incorporates a new skill to be
learned, ie. slab technique - picture frames. Everyone has to make the
project, and if they have time when they finish (which they usually do),
then they can make anything they want, including taking turns on the old
lockerbee. The first 4 weeks we learn a new handbuilding technique, the 5th
week we glaze using various techniques, the 6th week we have a show of the
students work for the parents. We unload the kiln, clean out the studio,
decorate with table clothes, set up the kids work, fill out an artist's
statement, talk about our work, go around and write positive comments on
each other's statement, the parents come bearing art opening goodies, ooh
and aah, go around and write positive comments on statements, talk to the
proud kids, then they take all the stuff home grinning from ear to ear.
What makes it sucessful? I think it is that I try and keep things
light. We have a good time, we get very silly, the kids sing me songs, tell
jokes, they really share a lot with each other. We play loud music, if we
have too much energy we run around the outside of the studio a few times.
We bang the clay loudly on the table to get the air bubbles out. We throw
slabs on the cement floor. We make knee bowls on each other's knees. We go
on hikes and find leaves and stuff for texture on our pots. We talk about
our work. This becomes their studio, and we are all potters, working
together and enjoying each others company and the things we are making. It
is a kind of empowerment. And this power and joy shows in the kids work.
Hey - you're really good I say...yea.... I am they tell me. I love it!
Good luck, and anytime any one wants to talk about teaching kids,
send me a post!
Pat
I teach kids in a freelance situation in several locations and I've run
into the same thing with not only parents expectations but the kids as
well. Too many want everything to happen with no effort on their part.
A small minority are willing to put some effort into a project. I can't
get most of them to slow down and perfect something. They want me to do
it for them because they want the end product to look better than what
they are capable of. They don't want to repeat a skill to practice it.
I'm struggling with how to teach as well as what to present to keep their
interest. I'm usually pretty psyched myself for each class, so I'm
disappointed when my enthusiasm doesn't always motivate the kids. I know
I'm choosing projects within their ability level.
Last summer I had a 4 year old cry every time we started a project. When
asked what's wrong he says "I know I won't be able to do it right". I
also do a lot of parent/child classes and too many parents won't just let
the kid explore the materials and learn for themselves, they're told "let
me do it for you" or "you're not doing it right". I have one mother now
who keeps painting over her 4 year old daughter's projects because the
daughter didn't paint it good enough. How do I change that without
insulting the parent? Another parent wants her daughter to start her
project over because it doesn't look just like the majority of the other
kids - her daughter is 6 and the others are 9. Until Mom said that the
kid was totally into her painting. I tried to pull Mom aside and tell
her to just let her daughter keep going but she was adamant that it
should look like the older kids - actually I liked hers better because it
was different, the older kids were playing it safe and copying each
others. Another mother wouldn't let her daughter come to part 2 of a
workshop to finish a self portrait because it didn't look very good, the
girl is 5 and is heartbroken that she can't finish the project and take
it home.
How do I balance wanting to teach art with the parents expecting a quick
craft project which looks good. I can't believe either how many kids
don't want to get their hands dirty. If I had a nickel for every time
they asked to wash their hands, I'd be rich. How can I teach the way I
want and still have the kids enjoy it and the parents want to keep paying
me? I had 2 kids recently who came in to my class (separate incidents)
saying "this had better be good - my Mom's paying good money for this!".
I charge $8/hr.
I showed pictures of Joman pots, we talked about how "funky" they are and
to my surprise the 5 & 6 year olds made beautiful pots in the Joman
style. The 8-9 year olds all wanted to make little heart shaped pinch
pots! I showed beautiful color pictures of African masks and 6 out of 7
opted to make kitty cats - only one used the African masks as a spring
board and made a very imaginative mask. Do I forbid the cats?
Any guidance would be appreciated.
{{{|}}}
( o o )
-------------------------.oooO----(_)---Oooo.--------------------------
"All the genuine, deep delight of life is in showing people the mud-pies you
have made; and life is at its best when we confidently recommend our
mud-pies to each other's sympathetic consideration." - J.M. Thorburn
patpots@wolfenet.com
..ooo0
-------------------------------( )-----Oooo.-------------------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
Patsy Catsos on mon 12 may 97
Dear Cheryl:
I've been teaching kids for several years and I have experienced many of the
same problems that you are wrestling with. Here are a few thoughts that have
worked for me.
1) When you are showing the kids a "sample" of the project, make sure that
it was made by a kid their own age. If you hold up an example made by the 30
year old, they will feel that their own work doesn't measure up.
2) For the same reason, I don't mix children and adults in the same class.
Why are the mothers there (re painting, etc)? I find that a mixture of
grades 1-5 is OK, as fine motor skills vary so much, and some 1st graders can
be as successful as 4th or 5th graders.
3) The 4 y.o. crying because she won't do it right probably has nothing to do
with you, so don't read too much into it. Probably a personality thing.
4) I balance process and product like this: I demonstrate a
technique/project of the day. I require them to use the technique and the
basic idea of the project. Beyond that, the decisions about decoration and
style are theirs to make. For example, animal shaped pinch pot soap dishes.
The shape, size, type of animal, color etc. is up to them. Sometimes we do
end up with a preponderance of cats or whatever, but often then is a
wonderful variety! After the project of the day, they can have "free clay".
This is usually 10 or 15 minutes at the end of the class. At first, this
blank time made me feel anxious, but I've learned that some of the kids
(especially boys...OK I'm being sexist here) like this part of class best. I
make toy cars, etc. available, and they do a lot of cooperative fantasy stuff
with the clay, build cities, roads, etc.
Hope these comments have been helpful.
Patsy
C.T. Wagoner on thu 15 may 97
> Art progranms in schools do this learning about artist thing where
>they pick one picture to teach the kids about, and i disagree with this
>technique too. I think it is best to show kids many pictures, and let
>them pick the ones they want to set up around the room, and have them to
>look at, and ask about. they will be more interested if they have a
>choice, of course.
>
Hi, I have taught Art 7-12 for 11 years in a public school and I just
wanted to say that I think your point is a valid one. One of the most
important things in "our" art room is that the students participate in the
set up of the room. I try to "edit" the material, but most of all a
"buffet" of artists and art is presented to allow for testing and tasting.
In the end while I may think that Picasso or Volkus are important artists I
am always amazed how many young people prefer Haring or David Gilhooley
(Sp? sOrRy) If they remember and get insprired that is the most important
thing to me.
A good example of this is when I let them help pick what we are going to
enter in the art shows we participate in. In a lot of cases what they pick
does better than what I pick. Needless to say they get a kick out of this
and love to rub it in.
I do however ask my students to be able to discuss and critique a single
work of art of their choice and one of my choice for them. It's more like a
compromise.
But they say all I care about is Clean UP! I guess they are 50 percent
right. But with 18 to 25 young people every 55 min. it would be a disaster
if someone didn't harp constantly.
Yours in education.
C.T. Wagoner
cwag@abcs.com
Wagoner Pottery
"Made to be used!"
Checkout our homepage
http://abcs.com/cwag/
Vince Pitelka on fri 16 may 97
>"When you are the artist, you can do it any way you want." Maybe this
>little phrase should be posted in the studio.
>
>If the sky is orange, and the nose is where some people expect to find
>the ear, and the cup is not any recognizable geometric shape, that's not
>a problem. When you are the artist, you can make it any way you want. If
>someone criticizes your work you can tell them that you are the artist
>and that is the way you wanted it.
>
>Bonnie Hellman in Pittsburgh
THREE CHEERS FOR THE ABOVE!!!! As I have quoted before on Clayart, in the
words of Jaqueline Ford Morie, pioneer in virtual reality, "Reality has
always been far too small for the human imagination." Let kids (and all
other artists) soar far beyond the limits of visual reality. There is
nothing wrong with pictorial realism, but see it for what it is - a small
segment of the vast world of possibility in visual expression.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Phone - home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801
Appalachian Center for Crafts
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
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