koratpot@korat.loxinfo.co.th on sat 26 apr 97
An interesting situation has developed at a country pottery in
Thailand. Marketing seems to have run ahead of production; the
throwers are all booked up and raising their prices day by day, it
seems. I am curious whether they are high enough that a 1st or 2nd
World potter could make money here.
I noted some while back a US potter said she threw 300-10 pound
planters a day--3000 pounds of clay. Here it takes about 5 potters to
use that much clay.
The method of throwing here is a sort of coil and throw. First a
cylinder is formed out of little pugs, about 1.5" diameter and 7-8
inches long, sloppy wet clay. The potter may use 10 wheels in a row,
very much like banding wheels. When there are 10 thick, crude
cylinders formed, he goes back to the first and sits crosslegged on
the floor while his partner spins the wheel with his hand. He then
makes the shape and moves on to the next.
The throwing part is fairly fast, but the pug-forming is slow. Most
pots are large, and must be thrown in two or three sections. For the
upper sections, pug-coils are added to the first after it has set up
a bit. The throwers work by the piece, and make more money than any
other kind of craftsman, tho not much by developed world
standards--$20-$30 a day. A laborer makes $4. The throwers do no
finishing or decorating. Handles are attached by someone else.
Some prices for throwing:
Squat jar, 10" high by 10" diam: $.40. Locals make 50-60 per day.
Medium jar, 20" high by 13 diam: $1.20. Locals make 15-20/day.
Big jar, 25" high by 21 diam, $2.20. Locals make 8-10/day.
Cylinder, 10" high by 4" diam, $.40. Locals make up to 100/day.
Planter, set of 3, large size 14" high by 16" diam, $1.80.
So someone who knows tell me: with an electric wheel, can you make
decent money at these rates? I should mention that you can hire
someone for $6/day to knead clay. And the cost of living is
cheap--like $60-80 a month for rent, $3-4 a day for food.
What I am after ultimately is to get the locals throwing off the hump
with electric wheels. My idea is that the best way to do that would
be to have a foreigner show up here with a wheel and start making a
hundred dollars a day--which I suspect is possible, especially with
small pieces, whose price seems quite high. There is nothing to be
gained here by government programs or pleading with anyone. The best
way to change things is to smoke 'em, leave them in the dust, make
them jealous--and pretty soon every potter in town will be lining up
to learn.
So, if anyone's interested, let me know. I can help make arrangements
for living and working places.
Nikom
koratpot@korat.loxinfo.co.th
Tel: 66 044 375-194
Fax: 66 044 375-198
kinoko@junction.net on sun 27 apr 97
Dear korat... I dearly hope this message is a spoof...if not,uit
feels me with disgust since it mirrors the attitudes of business/governments
everywhere. Here ,in Thailand we have a group of persons,apparently quite
content with their life...working in close cooperation and it is felt
desirable to completly destroy any sort of tradition which has supported
them for centuries(?) and replace this with Western Dog-eat-dog mentality..
I am under no illusions that their life is idylic having worked in at least
one 3rd World country.....and seen the complete failure of such schemes
or,worse, seen the success and the destruction and poverty of forced
industrialization. Another view: A westerner goes to Thailand and brings a
wheel,expecting to live a life-style somewhat equal to that they live at
home. Total cost in money only: App.12,000dollars>How long will it take to
workoff this debt at .04cents/cut,(somewhat clost to the local retail price)
How many wheels,how much fuel,how many wqorkers...before the market is
saturated? A great idea: Send all of this cup-crap to New
York,London,Toronto and sell it to the local natives in tose places for
$8.00/cup. A real money-maker. ANother country becomes totally
industrialized and loses whatever humanity they may have had.
kinoko----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>An interesting situation has developed at a country pottery in
>Thailand. Marketing seems to have run ahead of production; the
>throwers are all booked up and raising their prices day by day, it
>seems. I am curious whether they are high enough that a 1st or 2nd
>World potter could make money here.
>
>I noted some while back a US potter said she threw 300-10 pound
>planters a day--3000 pounds of clay. Here it takes about 5 potters to
>use that much clay.
>
>The method of throwing here is a sort of coil and throw. First a
>cylinder is formed out of little pugs, about 1.5" diameter and 7-8
>inches long, sloppy wet clay. The potter may use 10 wheels in a row,
>very much like banding wheels. When there are 10 thick, crude
>cylinders formed, he goes back to the first and sits crosslegged on
>the floor while his partner spins the wheel with his hand. He then
>makes the shape and moves on to the next.
>
>The throwing part is fairly fast, but the pug-forming is slow. Most
>pots are large, and must be thrown in two or three sections. For the
>upper sections, pug-coils are added to the first after it has set up
>a bit. The throwers work by the piece, and make more money than any
>other kind of craftsman, tho not much by developed world
>standards--$20-$30 a day. A laborer makes $4. The throwers do no
>finishing or decorating. Handles are attached by someone else.
>
>Some prices for throwing:
>Squat jar, 10" high by 10" diam: $.40. Locals make 50-60 per day.
>Medium jar, 20" high by 13 diam: $1.20. Locals make 15-20/day.
>Big jar, 25" high by 21 diam, $2.20. Locals make 8-10/day.
>Cylinder, 10" high by 4" diam, $.40. Locals make up to 100/day.
>Planter, set of 3, large size 14" high by 16" diam, $1.80.
>
>So someone who knows tell me: with an electric wheel, can you make
>decent money at these rates? I should mention that you can hire
>someone for $6/day to knead clay. And the cost of living is
>cheap--like $60-80 a month for rent, $3-4 a day for food.
>
>What I am after ultimately is to get the locals throwing off the hump
>with electric wheels. My idea is that the best way to do that would
>be to have a foreigner show up here with a wheel and start making a
>hundred dollars a day--which I suspect is possible, especially with
>small pieces, whose price seems quite high. There is nothing to be
>gained here by government programs or pleading with anyone. The best
>way to change things is to smoke 'em, leave them in the dust, make
>them jealous--and pretty soon every potter in town will be lining up
>to learn.
>
>So, if anyone's interested, let me know. I can help make arrangements
>for living and working places.
>
>Nikom
>koratpot@korat.loxinfo.co.th
>Tel: 66 044 375-194
>Fax: 66 044 375-198
>
>
lkatz@tamucc.edu on sun 27 apr 97
koratpot@korat.loxinfo.co.th wrote:
> I noted some while back a US potter said she threw 300-10 pound
> planters a day--3000 pounds of clay. Here it takes about 5 potters to
> use that much clay.
> So someone who knows tell me: with an electric wheel, can you make
> decent money at these rates? I should mention that you can hire
> someone for $6/day to knead clay. And the cost of living is
> cheap--like $60-80 a month for rent, $3-4 a day for food.
Dear Nikom,
Good question. Given smooth plastic clay (in comparison to Dankwean
Clay) someone could make a good fun living in Dankwean. Unfortunately
Dankwean Clay, unless it has changed significantly, in not plastic
enough for the center, open , pull the floor procedure we use here. The
coarseness of Dankwean Clay slows us down considerably.
The large historic water jars are best done with the coil/ throw
technique but smaller 10"-24" (.64 meter) size are probably thrown
faster from solid lumps. If you get any bites, let me know.
Louis
--
Louis Katz lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
Texas A&M University Corpus Christi
6300 Ocean
CCTX 78412
(512) 994-5987
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz
lkatz@tamucc.edu on mon 28 apr 97
Dear Kinoko, everybody,
When refering to Korat Pottery it is very hard to make it fit the label
of Third World. Korat Pottery is part of the marketing of the
industrialized world. It supports people through piecework. The poor
quality of the wares of Korat Pottery keep everybodies profits low from
the management down.
Pottery jobs in Dankwean are in demand. People stop working in the
traditional rice field jobs not so much because the pay in pottery is
better, but because the life is better. There is a choice to be made and
people are making it individually. Despite this health care, good food,
comfortable housing, good water, are hard to come by in Dankwean.
The frustration I read from Nikhom's letter is that there is a demand
for more pots from Dankwean, but the skills of the potters are such that
supply does not come close to meeting demand. I suspect that his
attempts to help people be more productive have been mostly ignored. If
someone comes to Dankwean and makes pots for a few years, the local
population will learn from example.
For good or for worse, without mass marketing of Dankwean pots,
potmaking in Dankwean would be nearly nonexistant. Other vilaages that
have only retained the remains of their traditional markets are all
gone.
This is a big subject, but the jist of my response is," the change from
traditional to "westernized" (not my term) has already been made. It is
a choice of the local population. Feel free to read what I have written
on Dankwean. You can find my articles from seven years or so ago at:
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz, homepage
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/TFP.HTML ceramics monthly article
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz/mortar.html NCECA Journal
I hope y'all enjoyed my performance at NCECA, we are working on taking
it to a school down the coast in Mexico in a few weeks. We are modifying
it a bit.
Louis
--
Louis Katz lkatz@falcon.tamucc.edu
Texas A&M University Corpus Christi
6300 Ocean
CCTX 78412
(512) 994-5987
http://www.tamucc.edu/~lkatz
TYLERCD@GOV.NS.CA on tue 29 apr 97
What a wonderful letter.! There are several issues here which have
interested me for a long time!
First: throwing speed. I went to an art college to learn and was, probaly
wisely, discouraged from considering speed as an important issue.
However, the workshop visit of Harry Davis who was a Leach-trained
potter who later went to Peru and New Zealand to establish potteries
based on available technology, said that he could regularly throw 1,000
pots per day. Later, I worked with John Reeve (also a Leach student),
who had worked in a traditional flower-pot pottery in Britain. John said a
regular daily output for a potter there was 2,000 a day. Two years ago, I
talked to a young potter at Stoke on Trent who said he could throw 1200
plates a day. Two of the three examples were contemporary makers of
high quality ware. (The flower pot obviously did not require the degree of
finish we would consider acceptable, but it still gives an indication of
what can be done).
The rate of throwing is crucial to your question. I would like to know what
rates people consider realistic, given that more individual consideration is
needed for some things than others. Is is possible that potters set their
targets for speed too low? Are higher targets for throwing part of the
solution for contemporary potters of useful ware?
Second: technology. I think Harry Davis would have been cross at the
automatic assumption that an electric wheel is faster, and even crosser
at the idea that introducing dependence on an industrial source
(electricity) is a good idea for a developing economy.
Now, there are many things about your situation which I do not know, but
it seems to me that these are useful questions. The banding wheels
which you describe do not have consistent power applied (as a kick
wheel would) and may have inferior bearings. The continental kick wheel
type (such as the Randall) is a rugged, low tech type and can run for
ages without more attention that a bit of grease. It also may be adapted
with a motor later without impairing its performance or sensitivity as a kick
wheel.
There are still some Klopfensteins around, which enthrall those who use
them a lot. This is a stand up, foot crank powered wheel which was
used by industrial throwers.
Peter and Sam Tomich on wed 30 apr 97
About Speed:
Warren MacKenzie just told us this wonderful story. He said Bernhard's
son, David (?), was running the pottery and thought the throwers were
too slow. So, all the throwers visited Harry Davis in his studio. He
was all set up when they got there with balls ready for throwing and he
was making small plates. They clocked him at 23 (?) seconds each.
The potters didn't change their speed any. Warren says he makes about
600 pots a month and glazes them all in two days! (More on the workshops
I went to later)
Warren thinks Harry's work looks lifeless. Maybe, but not the stuff I've
seen. Harry Davis came through here (before my time in clay) and my
teacher has a lot of his work.
I throw pretty slow, then I futz with the pots forever afterwards. I
think economically speed makes little difference. But I'm sure one Harry
Davis plate commands more $$$ than mine.
Sorry, I'm not the best storyteller, I thought I got that one in my
notes better, Samantha Tomich, Paauilo, Hawaii
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