Autumn Downey on fri 21 jun 96
I tipped a 40 lb tank over once trying to get a firing to get to
temperature. It was just a short move from the shaking which seemed to help
to tipping it on its side. The 4 ft flames that shot out the top amazed
everyone. Thank goodness no one had been standing right over the kiln. So,
it can and does happen that liquid propane will get through. An 8 lb tank
may not present much of a risk when low, etc., but not a practice to
recommend, I've found.
The same firing got hit by an icy deluge as we were taking pots out. Some
of the strangest colours of the day.
downeya@internorth.com
Yellowknife, NWT, Canada
Bob Pulley on sat 22 jun 96
I'll add my remeniscence to the propane subject. I'll never forget one of
my first visits to Tom Farrell, a wild man raku potter in Newburgh Indiana.
He had a studio in an old river front building facing the Ohio River. In
the back was a shed roofed room with about a 9 or 10' ceiling and no
windows except for a high opening with a vent fan in it. It was dark and
he had two kilns cooking away. During the conversation he remarked on the
tanks freezing up. He walked over to a kiln, pulled out the burner and
trained it on the site of the 100# tank. This made me a little nervous I'll
tell you! But it did raise the preasure and we didn't explode.
My favorite tecknique was to put the tank in a wash tub and pour hot water
around it.
Bob Pulley
pulley@mail.cpbx.net
Robert Pulley
pulley@mail.cpbx.net
james & becca sydnor on mon 24 jun 96
Hi, I'm new to the newsgroup and computer thing so I hope this works. I
am building my kiln it will be approximately 24 cubic feet stackable
using a modified MFT design (swinging door instead of cart). I would
like to fire it propane, but need to know the smallest size tank I can
get to fire the kiln. I can take the tanks to be filled after each
firing, but because of the location I can't get a deliver truck into
deliver the propane. Hope you can help
Jim
Kenneth A. Moore on mon 24 jun 96
During the conversation he remarked on the
>tanks freezing up. He walked over to a kiln, pulled out the burner and
>trained it on the site of the 100# tank. This made me a little nervous I'll
>tell you! But it did raise the preasure and we didn't explode.
>
Hey,
When I used to backpack in the Adirondak mountains we cooked on a stove
called a Svea. To pressurize the tank you held in between your warm thighs
for ten minutes. Maybe when those tanks start to ice up we should SIT ON THEM.
Julie Moore
Dirty Bird Pottery
Manassas, VA
kenmoore@pop.erols.com
.....still looking for a used pugmill....I'll pay shipping
WardBurner@aol.com on mon 24 jun 96
Jim,
You didn't say what the kiln was made from, if the cubic foot figure is
stacking or total volume or what temperature you'll be firing to, all
important factors in answering your question. If you are firing to cone 10,
the figure is total interior volume and have built out of soft bricks (IFB)
you'll need a MINIMUM of 250,000 BTU's per hour (long firing of 16-20 hours)
If you could empty a 20 lb propane tank, which you can't because of freeze
up, it would last an hour and fifteen minutes or so. Unfortunetly, I'm the
bearer of bad news for many folks..... This may be an impractical situation
that you're in. The biggest tank that is "easily moveable" is a 60 lb tank
(weighs 106 lbs when full with 13.5 gallons of fuel). You might need 8 or
more of these tanks. You wouldn't use them up, but you need extra fuel so
your withdrawl is a percentage of the total fuel available (this is what
causes tank freezeup). The lower your withdrawl percentage, the less chance
of freeze up. Normally, I'd recommend a 500 gallon tank fro this situation.
With the chance you live in the South and keep the tank full you might get by
with a 250 gallon tank. There are many variables..... Please feel free to
call me if you have any questions or need a catalog.
P.S. I've been on vacation for 2 weeks and had my mail off. If anyone has
tried to reach me and not received a reply, that's the reason. Try again
please...
Marc Ward
Ward Burner Systems
PO Box 333
Dandridge, TN 37725
423.397.2914 voice
423.397.1253 fax
wardburner@aol.com
Jim wrote:
<<<am building my kiln it will be approximately 24 cubic feet stackable
using a modified MFT design (swinging door instead of cart). I would
like to fire it propane, but need to know the smallest size tank I can
get to fire the kiln. I can take the tanks to be filled after each
firing, but because of the location I can't get a deliver truck into
deliver the propane. Hope you can help
Jim>>>>
Nils Lou on tue 25 jun 96
Presuming your kiln will be 9" IFB or equivalent in insulation and
approx. 36 cubic feet volume with 24 stackable--to be fired to cone 10 in
reduction you can do so with 25 gallons of LPG firing an average ware
load not too tightly stacked. You could use the tanks commonly used in
construction called hundred pounders which hold 26.5 gallons. However, if
you try to draw it in vapor you will only be able to extract about 60-70%
because of the rate of vapor withdrawal. If you hooked up to one or more
additional tanks by manifolding them you could fairly easily draw off the
25 gallons. I'm also presuming you would like to fire in about ten hours.
This method allows you to use tanks that can be hauled for refill, yet
provide enough volume to reach temperature. A better way would be to use
liquid withdrawal burners which allow you to use all of the LPG with no
loss of pressure. These burners draw liquid rather than vapor and
vaporize the liquid in the burner head. I also recommend that you coat
the inside of your kiln with CGHUC-Ceramic Grade Heat Unity Coating which
will reduce the fuel needed by 25%. If that interests you respond to me
directly and I will give you sources. Good luckwith your kiln--Nils Lou
On Mon, 24 Jun 1996, james & becca sydnor wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hi, I'm new to the newsgroup and computer thing so I hope this works. I
> am building my kiln it will be approximately 24 cubic feet stackable
> using a modified MFT design (swinging door instead of cart). I would
> like to fire it propane, but need to know the smallest size tank I can
> get to fire the kiln. I can take the tanks to be filled after each
> firing, but because of the location I can't get a deliver truck into
> deliver the propane. Hope you can help
>
> Jim
>
Ed Hoeflinger on mon 8 jul 96
There was a thread a few weeks ago about propane and various methods of
warming the tank when it would ice up. I fire with propane, not raku,
but it is my fuel of choice. My supplier just went up in flames this
afternoon. The accident started with another supplier and spread about
1/2 mile taking my supplier out and several businesses between them.
It looks like a 500gal. tank went, the fire departments have controlled
the fire and are working to prevent a 33,000 gal tank from going. All
told there was the possibility of 240,000 gallons at risk.
Luckly, there were only three people seriously hurt, but this is a very
potent reminder that precautions must be taken every time you use
propane. When used with the proper precautions this is a safe fuel, but
you need to be cautious, and do your routine maint.
E. Hoeflinger
Columbus, Oh
Mel Jacobson on fri 8 aug 97
let me jump in here, along with nils' explanation....
100 gallons of fuel for a cone 10 firing>? 20 cubes.
way too much... just the other day the "girls" at our
farm ,fired (all alone for the first time)to cone 10 salt...
..and used 10% of a 250
gallon propane tank.....that was all there was left in the
the tank so they nursed it. it is a 25 cubic foot flat
top with a hard brick roof and beat to crap, melted
interior of k26. we rarely use more than 10-12%.
mk burners, backed away 1 or more inches. about
15 lbs. pressure (our pressure gauges) and we use
1/4 " welding hose, with a regulator. total firing time 7 hours.
low, medium to high pressure with 15 being sort of max.
two things can happen when you do not reach temp....too much gas,
not enough gas....most often people use too much power and
blow it all up the stack. stalls the kiln..
had a classic last year.....blowing 6 inches of flame from the
peep holes, kiln was not reaching temp....they went crazy...
i fired the kiln the next week, did not look at the pressure
gauge....just listened....got the kiln balanced....looked at the
gauge...and low and behold. it was not registering...nothing...
and they were using 3 pounds...well the gdamn gauge was
not working.....i fired the kiln to cone 11 in 7 hours...perfect
fired pots... nice kiln, great burners, wonderful pots, wonderful
potter, but she was reading her notes....not listening to her kiln...
it said 3 pounds and she was going to fire with 3 pounds...
would not work.
A KILN MUST ACHIEVE BALANCE...PERFECT BALANCE..WHEN
IT DOES IT TAKES OFF LIKE A ROCKET. less gas is often
the key to perfect balance.
mel/mn
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Rick Sherman on sat 9 aug 97
Mel and Nils are correct about too much gas in firing. Don't push it.
I built a 90 cu ft downdraft with Alfred burners and with damper in
stack plus four pull bricks. The latter are a godsend. Kept records of
pressure on each burner. Be certain there is adequate space for
seondary air around burners. My peep holes were size of one brick in
door so I could easily check atmosphere. Fire to ^7 in 6 hours, light
reduction for 1/2 hour. Oxidation fire to ^11 in 4 hours with light
reduction in last hour. Used about 60 gals propane for each firing.
Used 500 gal tank which only froze once when it was too low. Balance
is one key and experience, like Mel's and Nil's is another.
RS
mel jacobson on wed 13 oct 99
as to nil's post.
i called and ordered propane yesterday.
last cost:
.62 cents
today:
.89 cents
next week:
est. $1.05
before christmas:
est. $1.60 gallon
of course no one will scam the y2k thing, will they?
mel.mn
http://www.pclink.com/melpots
from minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a.
John K Dellow on thu 14 oct 99
Mel,
I think its more like to Arabs wanting to top up the coffers
. The gas I use is Liquid Petroleum and its price is pegged to
the price of oil.
Took a big hike last month, but looks like coming down again
. My Gas went from $A0.40 a liter to $A0.65 ,am having a fill
tomorrow , I told it will be a little cheaper .
mel jacobson wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> as to nil's post.
> i called and ordered propane yesterday.
> last cost:
> .62 cents
> today:
> .89 cents
> next week:
> est. $1.05
> before christmas:
> est. $1.60 gallon
> of course no one will scam the y2k thing, will they?
> mel.mn
> http://www.pclink.com/melpots
> from minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a.
--
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
I talk not from experience but through my arse :)
Ray Carlton on fri 15 oct 99
john
lpg is propane "liquid propane gas" i cant understand why you are paying
.65c i am paying .30c here maybe you should check around and see if you can
get a better price
cheers
ray carlton
At 13:16 14/10/1999 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Mel,
> I think its more like to Arabs wanting to top up the coffers
>. The gas I use is Liquid Petroleum and its price is pegged to
>the price of oil.
> Took a big hike last month, but looks like coming down again
>. My Gas went from $A0.40 a liter to $A0.65 ,am having a fill
>tomorrow , I told it will be a little cheaper .
>
>
>mel jacobson wrote:
>>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> as to nil's post.
>> i called and ordered propane yesterday.
>> last cost:
>> .62 cents
>> today:
>> .89 cents
>> next week:
>> est. $1.05
>> before christmas:
>> est. $1.60 gallon
>> of course no one will scam the y2k thing, will they?
>> mel.mn
>> http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>> from minnetonka, minnesota, u.s.a.
>
>--
>
> John Dellow "the flower pot man"
>Home Page http://www.welcome.to/jkdellow
> I talk not from experience but through my arse :)
>
cheers Ray Carlton
McMahons Creek Victoria Australia
Cindy Strnad, Earthen Vessels Pottery on fri 15 oct 99
Ray,
I'm curious--where *are* you, anyhow? Florida? I just paid .65/gallon and
felt lucky to do it. I'm in western SD.
Cindy Strnad
Earthen Vessels Pottery
Custer, SD
Ditmar/Gayle on sat 16 oct 99
-------------------
Count your blessings everyone, on Maui propane is =242.20+ per gallon. The =
rest of
Hawaii is about the same.
By the way, gasoline is around =241.60 - 1.80+ .........has been for a long=
time.
>From Overpricedland, Ditmar.
Shirley Samuelson on sat 16 oct 99
You all will be delighted to know that we pay ca. $1.65 per gal for
propane in Hawaii, a little more if it is delivered. That's the Honolulu
price; sure to be higher on the outer islands (e.g., Kauai). Despite, gas
^10 and propane-fueled raku are the most popular and preferred firing
methods by far.
Shirley Samuelson
ssam@hawaii.edu
Tom Wirt on sat 16 oct 99
Subject: Re: propane
>
> I'm curious--where *are* you, anyhow? Florida? I just paid .65/gallon and
> felt lucky to do it. I'm in western SD.
>
> Cindy Strnad
That's about what it's going for here in MN too, Cindy. Although we get it
for .589/gal because we contracted in August. It will be the same .589 all
winter. I haven't heard anyone talk about buying contracts on their
gas....doesn't everyone who buys more than an occasional tankful??? It's
standard practice in the industry.
Tom Wirt
Tom Buck on sun 17 oct 99
Hey Ray C:
Nice try but LPG is Liquid Petroleum Gas and it is a mix of C3 and
C4 with a touch of C2; most of it is propane (C3) so your name really sets
out the truth. In N America there is one main LPG ("liquids line, propane
plus butanes (C4)) from the west to the east, and if you live near a
dropoff point you can buy the LPG reasonably lowcost. But if you are some
distance away, the trucking costs mount rapidly since the truck is limited
by law in size and carries a heavy pressure tank.
So that's why the price varies so much, not to mention OPEC's
price fixing efforts (crude oil now much more expensive).
Be well. Peace. Tom.
Tom Buck ) tel: 905-389-2339
(westend Lake Ontario, province of Ontario, Canada).
mailing address: 373 East 43rd Street,
Hamilton ON L8T 3E1 Canada
Andrew Buck on sun 17 oct 99
Ray and all,
LPG stands for "Liquefied Petroleum Gas" and can contain blends of many
light hydrocarbons including propane, propylene (the stuff they make
polypropylene plastic out of), and butane, to name a few. Big commercial
users have to specify a minimum BTU heat content for this product when
contracting for quantity pricing because the different components will
contribute different amounts to the overall as well as affect the vapor
pressure of the liquid. The world is always more complicated than we
think. The least expensive LPG I can get here is a commercial user rate
of $1.13 per gallon.
Andy Buck
Raincreek Pottery
Port Orchard, Washington
On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Ray Carlton wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> john
> lpg is propane "liquid propane gas" i cant understand why you are paying
> .65c i am paying .30c here maybe you should check around and see if you can
> get a better price
>
> cheers
>
> ray carlton
Ralph O. Robinson on thu 19 oct 00
"Don't bury the tanks"??
"Keep them vented"???
We recently installed three (3) 1,000 lb. tanks (two of which are linked
together) in Montana. All three are buried and none have venting other
than the filling nodules which have to be dug out when refilling. Dug
out I might add from 3-6 feet of snow, depending upon rate of
consumption.
Suggest you consult your propane service provider where you live as
these systems may vary depending on local vagaries.
John Britt on fri 20 oct 00
Hello,
Just wanted to thank everyone for the advice on propane. I will pass
along the information.
John Britt
Penland
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
mel jacobson on fri 8 mar 02
remember propane in the tank is a liquid.
the vapor that you take off is not a liquid.
i assume it will just float off in the air.
no big science here.
nils, (you all know that old guy.) turns his propane
tank over and draws off liquid for his burners.
works better.
but, i have seen propane form a puddle on the
ground. light it and you have a big elephant fart.
KABOOOOM.
From:
Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
Roger Korn on sat 9 mar 02
I had an apparently leaking tank in my shop in CA, back in the '60s. Lit my welding
torch and KAWHUMP! Garage door wound up 50 feet away and my ears were ringing for a
week.
Little Lessons Learned:
* Propane is heavier than air.
* Sometimes empty tanks aren't.
* You can't smell it if it has settled to the floor.
* It doesn't take much.
Roger, in OR, heading back to AZ next Saturday. Remember Alice for me! Wish I could
afford NCECA.
mel jacobson wrote:
> remember propane in the tank is a liquid.
> the vapor that you take off is not a liquid.
> i assume it will just float off in the air.
>
> no big science here.
> nils, (you all know that old guy.) turns his propane
> tank over and draws off liquid for his burners.
> works better.
>
> but, i have seen propane form a puddle on the
> ground. light it and you have a big elephant fart.
>
> KABOOOOM.
> From:
> Minnetonka, Minnesota, U.S.A.
> web site: http://www.pclink.com/melpots
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464
Gavin Stairs on sat 9 mar 02
Dear dear people,
I suppose it is worth rubbing this in a bit. I saw mel's "the vapor ... is
not a liquid. i assume it will just float off in the air." and sort of
assumed that someone else would correct it. No, mel, don't assume
that. Even if it only stays put for a few minutes, which it may,
especially in still air in a basement, someone else may come along, not
knowing it is there, and decided to throw a cigarette on the floor, or
something equally innocent and stupid. It's very similar to another
everyday hazard that we all ignore, mostly without incident: gasoline
(petrol, benzina) vapours. They are heavier than air, mostly invisible
(sometimes you can see them like heat waves, as their index of refraction
is so different from that of air) very easily ignited, and they will pool
in any depression or closed space for quite a time. I have a friend who
learned this to his cost while repairing his car. Gas vapour leaked out
onto the floor of his garage, flowed over to an overheated electrical
outlet, and the result was burns to much of his body, scars for life and a
long stay in hospital.
Gavin
At 09:03 AM 09/03/2002, you wrote:
>I had an apparently leaking tank in my shop in CA, back in the '60s. Lit
>my welding
>torch and KAWHUMP! Garage door wound up 50 feet away and my ears were
>ringing for a
>week.
>
>Little Lessons Learned:
>
> * Propane is heavier than air.
> * Sometimes empty tanks aren't.
> * You can't smell it if it has settled to the floor.
> * It doesn't take much.
>
>Roger, in OR, heading back to AZ next Saturday. Remember Alice for me!
>Wish I could
>afford NCECA.
>
>mel jacobson wrote:
>
> > remember propane in the tank is a liquid.
> > the vapor that you take off is not a liquid.
> > i assume it will just float off in the air.
Hank Murrow on sat 9 mar 02
>Dear dear people,
>
>I suppose it is worth rubbing this in a bit. Even if propane only stays
>put for a few minutes, someone else may come along, not knowing it is
>there, and decided to throw a cigarette on the floor, or something equally
>innocent and stupid. It's very similar to another
>everyday hazard that we all ignore, mostly without incident: gasoline
>(petrol, benzina) vapours. They are heavier than air, mostly invisible
>(sometimes you can see them like heat waves, as their index of refraction
>is so different from that of air) very easily ignited, and they will pool
>in any depression or closed space for quite a time.
>Gavin
Dear propane folks;
The glass facility at Penland deliberately designed their building
with a grate-covered trench under the furnaces just to catch any leaking
fuel. At the ends of the trench there was an open exit to the outdoors. No
pooling, no danger. Good design. Potters might take a leaf from their book.
Cheers, Hank
Philip Poburka on mon 11 mar 02
Dear Gavin and all...
I have tried many times to get some flammible liquid as 'Gasolene' or
other...'MEK', Toluene, Alcohols, Lacquer-Thinners, Benzine etc to ignite
with a
Cigarette, and I have never suceeded.
A 'spark' yes...that I can make work.
But I cannot ever seem to get a 'spark' that WILL work from a Cigarette.
From a flint-and-steel, yes.
A battery...yes.
I just now went into the Kitchen and turned on the front burner of my Range
and had a lit Cigarette and I stabbed the cherry of it onto the aperatures
of the Iron
'burner', and I pulled a few hard drags to get the temp up in it, having it
right in the gas comeing out full blast, and half, and softly as well, and
could not get the gas to ignite.
My Range or Stove as it may be, runs on Propane and it is an old one you
light with a match, no 'pilot-lights'.
I tried...couldn't get it to catch.
Since I were sixteen and had a Car, I have never demured from having a
Cigarette in my mouth when filling my Car's gas-tank, as I had satisfied
myself by then of the inability of mine TO get Gasolene a-going with a
Cigarette.
People sometimes get upset or look askance...I let them.
Would I 'light' one in that situation?
Hell No...at least not on a 'hot' day...on a 'cold' day, sure...why not?
That is the 'difference'.
I have refrained when in the presence of other people's Aeroplanes, certain
'chlorates',
Fulminateing Mercury, Gun-Powders (in bulk) or Chloroform, Ether and the
like...out of politeness and
tradition and maybe some 'sense' too.
In atmospheres as say of about pure or very high Oxygen, Hydrogen or the
like, I should happily, respectfully refrain.
Propane, Acetylene, Natural Gas and the like I have had no sucess in
experiments calculated to ignite them with a Cigarette, unless pure Oxygen
is also directed at the 'cherry' at the same time.
A 'Match' will...a 'spark' will...a flame will...a Cigarette so far for me,
has never done
so, and I have tried many times.
In 'movies' it will...and in 'movies' many things may be seen as I have not
seen elsewhere.
In movies, Gasolene has spilled on the ground...someone tosses a Cigarette
and 'whooooosh'! it combusts in a dramatic and violent conflagration.
I have never been able even on a Hundred-and Twenty degree day, to get it to
do that...maybe the presence of a 'director' and Camera Man and Actors would
help matters?
That is my experience.
Can it happen?
I suppose...
Could I win the 'lottery'?
Or get hit bye a Metiorite, Aereole, or small Asteroid?...or catch one in a
'Catcher's Mitt'?
I suppose...
But such is not my experience.
The flame as bye which one LIGHT a Cigarette, is another matter.
A 'spark' is another matter...
A Cigarette in my experience, which is already 'lit' may readily be put
'out' in Gasolene and
similar solvents or 'flammables', even in slow and prolonged motion of
doing so without any ignition
of the Gasolene or rather, of it's evaporative 'fumes' as are the
combustable of it
anyway.
Done it many times.
Never could get the 'flammables' to 'light'...
Now a spark in an electrical connection?
Sure, that could do it...
A minute spark from a nail in a shoe heel on concrete?
Sure...
Certain gasses exposed to certain metals, plastics or organics?
Sure...thats all they need..."whoosh"! they'll ignite...
The Gasolene-Cigarette thing allways puzzled me...I never could get it to
work.
Phil
ell vee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gavin Stairs"
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: propane
> Dear dear people,
>
> I suppose it is worth rubbing this in a bit. I saw mel's "the vapor ...
is
> not a liquid. i assume it will just float off in the air." and sort of
> assumed that someone else would correct it. No, mel, don't assume
> that. Even if it only stays put for a few minutes, which it may,
> especially in still air in a basement, someone else may come along, not
> knowing it is there, and decided to throw a cigarette on the floor, or
> something equally innocent and stupid. It's very similar to another
> everyday hazard that we all ignore, mostly without incident: gasoline
> (petrol, benzina) vapours. They are heavier than air, mostly invisible
> (sometimes you can see them like heat waves, as their index of refraction
> is so different from that of air) very easily ignited, and they will pool
> in any depression or closed space for quite a time. I have a friend who
> learned this to his cost while repairing his car. Gas vapour leaked out
> onto the floor of his garage, flowed over to an overheated electrical
> outlet, and the result was burns to much of his body, scars for life and a
> long stay in hospital.
>
> Gavin
>
> At 09:03 AM 09/03/2002, you wrote:
> >I had an apparently leaking tank in my shop in CA, back in the '60s. Lit
> >my welding
> >torch and KAWHUMP! Garage door wound up 50 feet away and my ears were
> >ringing for a
> >week.
> >
> >Little Lessons Learned:
> >
> > * Propane is heavier than air.
> > * Sometimes empty tanks aren't.
> > * You can't smell it if it has settled to the floor.
> > * It doesn't take much.
> >
> >Roger, in OR, heading back to AZ next Saturday. Remember Alice for me!
> >Wish I could
> >afford NCECA.
> >
> >mel jacobson wrote:
> >
> > > remember propane in the tank is a liquid.
> > > the vapor that you take off is not a liquid.
> > > i assume it will just float off in the air.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Anita Rickenberg on mon 11 mar 02
As a member of a volunteer ambulance squad many years ago that was =
called to a local gas station, I can assure you a cigarette can and will =
ignite with gasoline fumes. An employee there had thrown down a =
cigarette, it ignited, and he had 2nd and 3rd degree burns on his hands =
and arms. No, it doesn't ignite most of the time, but it only takes =
once and the result at best is painful--at worst, fatal. Why on earth =
would you take the chance?
Anita
"In 'movies' it will...and in 'movies' many things may be seen as I have =
not
seen elsewhere.
In movies, Gasolene has spilled on the ground...someone tosses a =
Cigarette
and 'whooooosh'! it combusts in a dramatic and violent conflagration.
I have never been able even on a Hundred-and Twenty degree day, to get =
it to
do that...maybe the presence of a 'director' and Camera Man and Actors =
would
help matters?"
Gretchen L. Mottet on fri 14 mar 03
In Tacoma, WA I last paid $2.25 a gallon in February. I have a 100 gallon
tank that heats my Studio. Gretchen
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on sat 29 oct 05
Hello all,
my most recent article on Sir Denis Caraty's (aka Smart.Conseil) site;
mon plus r=E9cent article sur le site de Sire Denis Caraty (alias =
Smart.Conseil) :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/propane_toxico.htm
Later,
"Ils sont fous ces quebecois"
"They are insane these quebekers"
"Est=E1n locos estos quebequeses"
Edouard Bastarache
Irreductible Quebecois
Indomitable Quebeker
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
edouardb@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/
http://stainlessfre.blogspot.com/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm
http://www.digitalfire.com/education/toxicity/
Dale Neese on fri 25 apr 08
so to get those per gallon prices do you order a complete refill of your
200-1000 gallon tanks or do you purchase a specific amount at a time? I know
I can't afford to fill my 250 gallon tank completely unless it's right after
a sale. I was getting low with Monday's bisque firing and ordered just 100
gallons this go around.
Dale Tex
"across the alley from the Alamo"
San Antonio, Texas USA
http://www.daleneese.com
mel jacobson on tue 7 dec 10
in many cases, tanks smaller than 250 gallons
must be taken to a fill station. it all depends on
your laws and dealers.
but, you will find that manifolding smaller tanks works
well, but you may have to take them in for filling.
and, a 100lb tank is a real load in the back of a
'65 vw beetle .
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com
alternate: melpots7575@gmail.com
Bill Merrill on sun 19 dec 10
There has been considerable talk about propane. I have used propane to =3D
fire with since 1970. I came from Wyoming where I was familiar with =3D
natural gas for my kilns. I have used forced air burners and also =3D
natural draft burners with propane. I found they both worked well but =3D
propane has some issues a potter needs to address.
=3D20
I have always used a 500 gallon tank. The larger the tank and the =3D
fuller it is will produce more gas than a tank with less gas. The =3D
liquid of propane will produce more gas if there is more liquid touching =
=3D
the tank itself, the lower the liquid the more it will be prone to =3D
"freeze up" I use a large primary regulator. It is a Fisher Control =3D
regulator Type 627-6210. It can produce pressure that is adjustable up =3D
to 20 pounds. The regulator orifice size is quite large at =3DBD inch. =
=3D
After the regulator down line I have a 2 =3DBD" black iron pipe manifold =
=3D
that houses gas and then from the manifold a line to each of several =3D
kilns. Each kiln has its own adjustable regulator, for firing with =3D
water column inches of pressure or with pounds. The manifold is 30 feet =
=3D
long, but that is for several large kilns so they can be fired at once. =
=3D
=3D20
For a 50 cubic for stoneware kiln the manifold is not necessary, but a =3D
shorter manifold is advisable if colder weather is the norm. On one 50 =3D
cubic foot kiln I have 4 Pyronics 80 ET (elbow type) torch
Burners and on the other there is 6, 80 ET Pryonics medium pressure =3D
burners, both are fired with propane. Both kilns fire exactly the same =3D
top to bottom. I am build a new $0 cubic foot kiln and I will use 6 =3D
burners. I just like the control there is when using 6 burners. I =3D
first used these burners in 1966 when Dave Shaner turned me on to them. =
=3D
He had a 30 cubic foot kiln at the Archie Bray Foundation and it fire =3D
well with only 2 of the Pyronics 80 ET type burners. On his kiln In Big =
=3D
Fork Montana he used the same burner except it was straight rather than =3D
an elbow type. He also used hoses rather than having the kiln plumbed =3D
with pipe. There were 4 burners on that kiln which was a little over 50 =
=3D
cubic feet.
=3D20
My kiln has a burner system that the plumbing completely surrounds the =3D
burners. The gas comes in at one point, but the pressure is equalizes =3D
on all burners because the plumbing pressure does not stop at the end =3D
burner. I adjust all the burners with one adjustable regulator. I use =
=3D
50 drill sizes for the burner orifices and when all the burners are open =
=3D
fully there is 2 - 21/2 pounds of pressure on the system. I start the =3D
kiln with one burner on, on both sides of the kiln. The pressure is =3D
considerably less until all the burners are on. I start reduction at =3D
1650 degrees Fahrenheit and maintain reduction until come 9 and then I =3D
oxidize for at least an hour.
=3D20
There are pictures of a few kilns I have built and the article that is =3D
on Mel's 21st Century Kiln book, also a picture of Dave Shaners 2 burner =
=3D
kiln. The article also shows the kiln floor system I use and pictures =3D
of some of my pots. =3D20
=3D20
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25594880@N04/ =3D
=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
Should anyone want to write please do or call if you have any questions. =
=3D
=3D20
=3D20
Keep making pots, the best ones are still in you!!!!
=3D20
Bill Merrill 360-417-6537 Studio at school =3D20
=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
Robert Briscoe on mon 20 dec 10
Hi all, just to add some more fuel on this propane fire. Years ago, my
propane supplier, when I asked for advice, if my 1000 gallon tank should
begin to freeze up, he said build a fire under each end!
I live in Minnesota and with a 1000 gallon tank I have been able to
confidently fire either of my kilns at -20 or - 30 degrees outside as long
as the tank is fairly full. I think a 1000 gallon tank is the key here in
Minnesota winters.
Another piece of advice I was given, by an Uncle who is the chief of a
volunteer fire department in Indiana. Place your propane tank so that the
long side is parrallel to your studio/home. If they blow (which he has
witnessed) the end (ends) blows off and the tank becomes a missile. I
assume the welds failed and the tank did not explode but took off like a
rocket. That was always my worry about building a fire under the tank.
At -30 degrees I was worried that the temperature difference from the fire=
s
at either end could cause a flawed weld to fail. I also was s told propane
expands 400 times its volume when it explodes so your home is probably toas=
t
from a 1000 gallon tank anyway.
Just saying, Robert Briscoe
Tommy Humphries on mon 20 dec 10
A few years ago the local propane supplier installed some holding
tanks just down the road from us. These tanks are 60 feet long and
10-12 feet wide. In the discussion about the safety of placing these
tanks within 100 yards of residences, he showed me an arial photo of a
tank that had ruptured from a lightning strike. The tank, (identical
to the one described) traveled 1/4 mile through the air, coming to
rest across 3 lanes of interstate hiway. Trees had been incinerated to
the ground 100 yards to the rear from the plume of fire produced from
the rupture and launch.
In my opinion, for what it is worth the best way to boost pressure in
a tank, is to use a length of pipe warming tape, or a warming jacket.
These are used for similar purposes all the time, and most have a
temperature control.
Tommy Humphries
On Dec 20, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Robert Briscoe wrote:
>
>
> Another piece of advice I was given, by an Uncle who is the chief of a
> volunteer fire department in Indiana. Place your propane tank so
> that the
> long side is parrallel to your studio/home. If they blow (which he
> has
> witnessed) the end (ends) blows off and the tank becomes a missile. I
> assume the welds failed and the tank did not explode but took off
> like a
> rocket. That was always my worry about building a fire under the
> tank.
> At -30 degrees I was worried that the temperature difference from
> the fires
> at either end could cause a flawed weld to fail. I also was s told
> propane
> expands 400 times its volume when it explodes so your home is
> probably toast
> from a 1000 gallon tank anyway.
> Just saying, Robert Briscoe
| |
|
