"Rafael Molina-Rodriguez (Rafael Molina-Rodriguez)" on fri 29 aug 97
Vince :
Congratulations on you're succesful sojourn out West. By all accounts it
was quite entertaining, educational and informative. I'm very interested in
the "Ancient Clay" process because for a number of years I worked with a
closely related process of burnishing and saggar-firing. I still include a
coiled, burnished and pit-fired project in my beginning ceramics class
syllabus.
On the subject of "This Business of Potting" I have to say my view is in
opposition to yours. I can not in good conscience advise someone that they
can make a living making pots.
In the seven years I've taught at the college and university level I've had
a few ceramics majors, many art majors, and a large percentage of people who
take the class as a free elective towards their associate or baccalaureate
degree. I've also taught a large number of non-credit continuing education
students. I view my class as a sort of art appreciation class. My goal is
that through the experience with the materials and processes the student
will gain a greater understanding and appreciation for the medium of
ceramics.
If a person is interested in clay as a profession and comes to me for advice
my recommendations are to get a double major (one being in ceramics) or to
minor in ceramics. I will not encourage someone to devote four or five
years for a BFA and two or three years for an MFA and tens of thousands of
dollars in tuition only to face the uncertainties of the marketplace. I've
seen too many people try and fail.
My advice comes from many years of observation. The information I have is
only anecdotal. I'm not aware of any objective data from a survey or study
of BFA/MFA ceramics grads who went on to make a living by selling pottery.
Probably because there is none. In my opinion, schools of art will admit
students and confer degrees upon them but are not particularly interested in
what happens afterward (Placement Office. What's a Placement Office?).
Compare and contrast the percentage of MFA ceramics grads who stay in their
field with grads from other graduate schools like medicine, law, business,
dentistry, engineering, etc.,... Again, we don't have any objective data
but I think it would be reasonable to assume that a higher percentage of
people from professional schools stay in their fields than MFA ceramics
grads.
If making a living from selling pottery is such a great endeavor why this
trend of studio potters going in to teaching (how the narrow focus of studio
pottery prepares one to teach a broad based ceramics curriculum at a college
or university is beyond me and the subject for another post) or quitting
altogether. From what I gather from your posts Vince you at one time made a
living selling pots and decided to go into teaching. Why? Recently, in the
North Texas area two long-time studio potters quit potting full-time to go
into education one at the university level and the other at the high school
level. Tom Turner, who in my opinion was one our most talented potters, is
no longer making pots for a living. I can cite many more examples of
potters changing careers. If potting as a business is so great how do you
explain this trend?
I think it's disingenuous, at the very least, and self-perpetuation on the
part of the professor, at its worst, to tell someone they can make a living
selling pots. If a person who is interested in making pots for a living
knew how difficult it is and how very small the percentage of people who
succeed at it is they might consider another profession.
On this issue, we need a new objectivity.
Rafael
>>> Vince Pitelka 08/23/97 08:17am >>>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I am dismayed by the posts relating yet more stories about
>teachers in academic institutions perpetuating the myth that you cannot
>hope to survive financially making pots. For shame! I would suggest to
>any young person considering a formal education in clay to first ask the
>instructor what they think about potting for a living. If they
>discourage same, look for another school. If you can't find a good one,
>apprentice for a production potter who has disproved the myth. If anyone
>would like more of my thoughts on this topic I refer you to an article
>in the last issue of CONTACT magazine.
I have to agree entirely with Dan. If you know of a university instructor
who tells people that you cannot make a living at pottery, PLEASE PUBLISH
HIS OR HER NAME ON THIS LIST. Such misdirection slams doors in the face of
the student. University education should open up a broad range of
possibilities. Any university educator who does otherwise should seek other
employment.
- Vince
>Surviving very nicely thank you in Medicine Hat Alberta.
>
>Dan Tayor, Production Potter
>Taylor Clayworks
>
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
David Hendley on sat 30 aug 97
At 09:05 AM 8/29/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Rafael,
All I can say is I'm very glad I didn't talk to you when I was in school.
I might have been sidetracked from a fulfilling life.
I, for one, would rather have an ENCOURAGING teacher, one that is open to
many possiblities.
I always keep Stevie Wonder's story in my mind.
When he was 10 his teacher told him to forget about doing much with his
life - just go to work at the Lighthouse for the Blind.
We all know where he was 3 years later.
You may have a "ceramic Stevie Wonder" in you class. He might even have two
strikes against him, being uncoordinated and frail.
You also may have a student who wants to try making a living as a potter,
does, and eventually fails.
Is this bad?
Not in my book. It beats working as an accountant (no offense, accountants,
some of my best friends..) wondering if you could have made it as a potter.
A true failure is the one who never tried.
The truth is that most people change careers during their lifetimes.
More than once.
Documented fact.
For every potter who gives up and gets another job there is another person
who quits ther job to make pots. Go back and read Cindy from South Dakota's
post today.
Also, it's not valid to compare a MFA degree with an MD degree. The latter
requires much more time and commitment. And more of an obligation to repay.
Every thing is relative, especially "making a living".
If my goal in life is to live in Highland Park I, too, would quit trying to
make a living as a potter and get a teaching job.
My goal is to do the best work I can, and I'll be happier in Oak Cliff,
making pots, thank you.
Best wishes from an idealistic optimist,
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
>On the subject of "This Business of Potting" I have to say my view is in
>opposition to yours. I can not in good conscience advise someone that they
>can make a living making pots.
>
>In the seven years I've taught at the college and university level I've had
>a few ceramics majors, many art majors, and a large percentage of people who
>take the class as a free elective towards their associate or baccalaureate
>degree. I've also taught a large number of non-credit continuing education
>students. I view my class as a sort of art appreciation class. My goal is
>that through the experience with the materials and processes the student
>will gain a greater understanding and appreciation for the medium of
>ceramics.
>
>If a person is interested in clay as a profession and comes to me for advice
>my recommendations are to get a double major (one being in ceramics) or to
>minor in ceramics. I will not encourage someone to devote four or five
>years for a BFA and two or three years for an MFA and tens of thousands of
>dollars in tuition only to face the uncertainties of the marketplace. I've
>seen too many people try and fail.
>
>My advice comes from many years of observation. The information I have is
>only anecdotal. I'm not aware of any objective data from a survey or study
>of BFA/MFA ceramics grads who went on to make a living by selling pottery.
>Probably because there is none. In my opinion, schools of art will admit
>students and confer degrees upon them but are not particularly interested in
>what happens afterward (Placement Office. What's a Placement Office?).
>
>Compare and contrast the percentage of MFA ceramics grads who stay in their
>field with grads from other graduate schools like medicine, law, business,
>dentistry, engineering, etc.,... Again, we don't have any objective data
>but I think it would be reasonable to assume that a higher percentage of
>people from professional schools stay in their fields than MFA ceramics
>grads.
>
>If making a living from selling pottery is such a great endeavor why this
>trend of studio potters going in to teaching (how the narrow focus of studio
>pottery prepares one to teach a broad based ceramics curriculum at a college
>or university is beyond me and the subject for another post) or quitting
>altogether. From what I gather from your posts Vince you at one time made a
>living selling pots and decided to go into teaching. Why? Recently, in the
>North Texas area two long-time studio potters quit potting full-time to go
>into education one at the university level and the other at the high school
>level. Tom Turner, who in my opinion was one our most talented potters, is
>no longer making pots for a living. I can cite many more examples of
>potters changing careers. If potting as a business is so great how do you
>explain this trend?
>
>I think it's disingenuous, at the very least, and self-perpetuation on the
>part of the professor, at its worst, to tell someone they can make a living
>selling pots. If a person who is interested in making pots for a living
>knew how difficult it is and how very small the percentage of people who
>succeed at it is they might consider another profession.
>
>On this issue, we need a new objectivity.
>
>Rafael
>
>>>> Vince Pitelka 08/23/97 08:17am >>>
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I am dismayed by the posts relating yet more stories about
>>teachers in academic institutions perpetuating the myth that you cannot
>>hope to survive financially making pots. For shame! I would suggest to
>>any young person considering a formal education in clay to first ask the
>>instructor what they think about potting for a living. If they
>>discourage same, look for another school. If you can't find a good one,
>>apprentice for a production potter who has disproved the myth. If anyone
>>would like more of my thoughts on this topic I refer you to an article
>>in the last issue of CONTACT magazine.
>
>I have to agree entirely with Dan. If you know of a university instructor
>who tells people that you cannot make a living at pottery, PLEASE PUBLISH
>HIS OR HER NAME ON THIS LIST. Such misdirection slams doors in the face of
>the student. University education should open up a broad range of
>possibilities. Any university educator who does otherwise should seek other
>employment.
>- Vince
>
>
>
>
>>Surviving very nicely thank you in Medicine Hat Alberta.
>>
>>Dan Tayor, Production Potter
>>Taylor Clayworks
>>
>Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
>Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
>Appalachian Center for Crafts
>1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
>
>
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
See David Hendley's Pottery Page at
http://www.sosis.com/hendley/david/
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