Tracy Wilson on wed 29 jan 97
Howdy all...
I bought a bluebird 440 deairing pugmill last Feb. It has run very well.
I average about 300-400 lbs per week including reclaimed stuff. After
about 6 months, the spring broke in the vacuum chamber. I had another on
hand that was shipped with the pugmill.
It was easy to replace and so far...(knock on wood) that's all I've had to
replace. I called the support line and ordered the few wearing parts to
have on hand. Those came in handy to give to another potter who purchased
a used one and had another part go. I gave him the box of parts and he
replaced what he used.
The pugmill is relatively quiet (compared to the homemade monster I'd used
for the last 15 years at a former studio). When I was replacing the
spring, I greased whatever fittings were shown in the manual as needing
occasional attention.
My reclaimed clay is slop from my bucket, trimmings that have been
moistened and broken pots also moistened. This goo is plopped out in
plaster tubs (holding about 1 gal each) and airdryed for a couple of days.
The stuff is usually a little too hard on the top and soft inside. The
bluebird turns this into useable clay in one pass. If it is still too
soft, I let the pugs air dry for a few hours then re-pug.
The 3" dia. pug doesn't bother me because I can slam the clay on the
wedging table to smash it into any size I want. Most of the time my pots
are small enough to use the pugs as is.
All in all, I LOVE this pugmill.
Tracy
_______________________________________
Tracy Wilson
Saltbox Pottery
RR3 Box 749, Rte. 1
Woolwich, Maine 04579
phone:207-443-5586
fax:207-443-6544-0
email: cape1764@gwi.net
Web: http://www.gwi.net/~cape1764/
______________________________________
RJMOORE2 on fri 31 jan 97
Hello Tracy,
You mentioned a homemade pug mill.??
At the moment I do not have the finances for a new pug mill. Could you tell me
what you used to put together the homemade monster? I would appriciate any
info.
Thanks, Robert
rjmoore2@iusmail.ius.indiana.edu
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: pugmills
Author: Ceramic Arts Discussion List at SMTP-Gateway
Date: 1/30/97 4:18 AM
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Howdy all...
I bought a bluebird 440 deairing pugmill last Feb. It has run very
well.
I average about 300-400 lbs per week including reclaimed stuff. After
about 6 months, the spring broke in the vacuum chamber. I had another on
hand that was shipped with the pugmill.
It was easy to replace and so far...(knock on wood) that's all I've had
to
replace. I called the support line and ordered the few wearing parts to
have on hand. Those came in handy to give to another potter who purchased
a used one and had another part go. I gave him the box of parts and he
replaced what he used.
The pugmill is relatively quiet (compared to the homemade monster I'd
used
for the last 15 years at a former studio). When I was replacing the
spring, I greased whatever fittings were shown in the manual as needing
occasional attention.
My reclaimed clay is slop from my bucket, trimmings that have been
moistened and broken pots also moistened. This goo is plopped out in
plaster tubs (holding about 1 gal each) and airdryed for a couple of days.
The stuff is usually a little too hard on the top and soft inside. The
bluebird turns this into useable clay in one pass. If it is still too
soft, I let the pugs air dry for a few hours then re-pug.
The 3" dia. pug doesn't bother me because I can slam the clay on the
wedging table to smash it into any size I want. Most of the time my pots
are small enough to use the pugs as is.
All in all, I LOVE this pugmill.
Tracy
_______________________________________
Tracy Wilson
Saltbox Pottery
RR3 Box 749, Rte. 1
Woolwich, Maine 04579
phone:207-443-5586
fax:207-443-6544-0
email: cape1764@gwi.net
Web: http://www.gwi.net/~cape1764/
______________________________________
Marcia Smith or Anton TenWolde on sat 22 feb 97
Does anyone have any comments on whether the new "marine grade" aluminum
barrels on the Bluebird pugmills continue to form crystals when used with
porcelain? I have a friend who was told that hers (purchased about 8 years
ago) should not do this, but it does. Mine, which is the old alloy type
does, of course.
By the way, I've found that emptying the barrels and putting it outside to
freeze is an excellent way to easily remove the crystals, they just fall
off. It is still irritating!
Thanks, Marcia
gracie on mon 11 jan 99
Hello, again... one more question if anyone would tackle this one.. Can
anyone recommend a brand, size or type of pugmill for a very small one
person business... I don't produce 24/7 , but I am back in production and
need to have the clay pugged regularly ..about every other day.. Has anyone
tried a Peter Pugger? I see ads for Venco.. I believe that may be a
wonderful machine, but I don't need 700 lbs an hour... Any ideas would be
very much appreciated.. gracie
Alex Wilson on tue 12 jan 99
Hello Gracie, have you looked at the smaller (3") Venco, output 400lbs/hr?,
and Shimpo makes what looks like a good mill - quite compact and with the all-
important vacuum pump.
I can vouch for the Venco being a very good machine indeed, having used one in
a production pottery at least four hours every day for four years.
yours,
Alex
John K. Dellow on tue 12 jan 99
Gacie , why not just wedge ,either by cut & slap or spiral ( japanese type
aramomi, then kikumomi ) . You will find "The Japanese Pottery Handbook" has
easy to follow diagrams..
Wedging is a good from of exercise if the clay is not too firm. To make
lumps up , roll coils & use finger widths to roughly make up lumps before
weighing.
I wedge 200 to 300 kgs. each morning when making production terracotta. Not
only is this good exercise it warms up the muscles before throwing. Not a good
idea to start throwing with cold muscles. It will also give you
good muscle tone . It also helps in getting focused on the days production.
John Dellow the flower pot man
http://welcome.to/jkdellow
Kathi LeSueur on wed 13 jan 99
In a message dated 1/12/99 3:05:26 PM, you wrote:
>Gacie , why not just wedge
> I wedge 200 to 300 kgs. each morning when making production terracotta.
Not
>only is this good exercise it warms up the muscles before throwing.
If you continue this routine one day you will wake up and find that you've
shot your wrists, elbows, and shoulders. Repairing them ( if possible to do)
will be time-consuming. Repetitive motion injuries often show up suddenly and
are very difficlut to treat.
While I was in physical therapy for a shoulder injury my therapist (who is
regarded as one of the best shoulder persons in the midwest) evaluated my work
environment. Her opinion was that the single worst thing I could do to my body
was wedge clay. Even though I pug all of my clay and did minimal wedging, she
wanted me to eliminate it as much as possible.
Kathi
John K. Dellow on fri 15 jan 99
Kathi , I have to reply to you assertion that the pug mill is the best way to go
Passing Clay through the pug makes it more compressed & harder , than the same
clay hand wedged. I have found that lumps purged go off quicker.
One does not have to wedge like a bull going at a red flag. Soft clay is
important and a good rhythm . It is not necessary to use strength . I am 50yrs.
old and could wedge all day without injury. I made the point that throwing with
cold muscles is not a good idea. I would also say that I do simple stretching
exercises regularly, to keep supple.
John Dellow the flower pot man
http:/welcome.to/jkdellow
Marty Anderson on fri 15 jan 99
I agree with Kathi. There is not worse than a repetitive motion injury. I
have spent a 1 1/2 yrs. taking care of a tennis elbow which was not received
playing tennis. It was thanks to a "Microsoft Mouse". I spent an entire
semester doing graphics homework at the rate of 40 - 50 hrs a week. Usually
forgetting what time it was until I realized I had sat with my mouse in my
hand for 8 - 10 hrs.
So I wedge only what I have to wedge.
marty
martya@airmail.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathi LeSueur
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: Pugmills
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>In a message dated 1/12/99 3:05:26 PM, you wrote:
>
>>Gacie , why not just wedge
>> I wedge 200 to 300 kgs. each morning when making production
terracotta.
>Not
>>only is this good exercise it warms up the muscles before throwing.
>
>If you continue this routine one day you will wake up and find that you've
>shot your wrists, elbows, and shoulders. Repairing them ( if possible to
do)
>will be time-consuming. Repetitive motion injuries often show up suddenly
and
>are very difficlut to treat.
>
>While I was in physical therapy for a shoulder injury my therapist (who is
>regarded as one of the best shoulder persons in the midwest) evaluated my
work
>environment. Her opinion was that the single worst thing I could do to my
body
>was wedge clay. Even though I pug all of my clay and did minimal wedging,
she
>wanted me to eliminate it as much as possible.
>
>Kathi
>
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) on fri 15 jan 99
Kathi--
I have a student who has a very severe wrist problem. She is used to throwing
very large pieces, but now has to content herself with mid-size plugs of clay.
Wedging is almost impossible. I've shown her how to slam-wedge rather than
knead. We don't have a pugger at our studio. Do you have any other suggestions
for how she might get her clay in shape? How do you manage without wedging?
Sandy D.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathi LeSueur [SMTP:KLeSueur@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:14 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: Pugmills
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
In a message dated 1/12/99 3:05:26 PM, you wrote:
>Gacie , why not just wedge
> I wedge 200 to 300 kgs. each morning when making production terracotta.
Not
>only is this good exercise it warms up the muscles before throwing.
If you continue this routine one day you will wake up and find that you've
shot your wrists, elbows, and shoulders. Repairing them ( if possible to do)
will be time-consuming. Repetitive motion injuries often show up suddenly and
are very difficlut to treat.
While I was in physical therapy for a shoulder injury my therapist (who is
regarded as one of the best shoulder persons in the midwest) evaluated my work
environment. Her opinion was that the single worst thing I could do to my body
was wedge clay. Even though I pug all of my clay and did minimal wedging, she
wanted me to eliminate it as much as possible.
Kathi
Kathi LeSueur on sat 16 jan 99
In a message dated 1/15/99 12:52:21 PM, you wrote:
<I have a student who has a very severe wrist problem. She is used to throwing
very large pieces, but now has to content herself with mid-size plugs of clay.
Wedging is almost impossible. I've shown her how to slam-wedge rather than
knead. We don't have a pugger at our studio. Do you have any other
suggestions
for how she might get her clay in shape? How do you manage without wedging?
Sandy D.>>
First,let me say that it was my physical therapist, not me, who said the
single worst thing I could do for my body was wedge clay. That said, this is
how I handle clay. I buy my clay premixed, but every bit of it goes into my
pug mill. I reprocess very soft scrap along with it, so the clay I throw with
is very soft. I do a minimal amount of wedging after it comes out of the
pugmill. Just enough so that it's in a ball form.
For your student I would first suggest that she see a sports medicine person
and have her wrist problem evaluated. People leap to the conclusion that wrist
problems are always carpel tunnel. Not so. She could have a cyst that is
exerting pressure on the nerves. I had one right on the artery. It was
necessary to remove the artery along with the cyst, so I have yet another
disadvantage with throwing. According to my therapist, many wrist problems
originate with the shoulder. The shoulder rarely is able to heal itself. I'll
tell you that I was convinced my career was over when I started therapy. I
couldn't lift my right arm above my waist. I couldn't find any position to
sleep in that it didn't hurt. I couldn't pick up most objects. Therapy lasted
6 months and ended two years ago. I'm able to throw most forms with no
problem. I routinely throw with 15 lbs. of clay, sometimes more. So I can't
stress a visit to the doctor enough.
There really is no solution to the wedging problem. If you are buying your
clay bagged I would suggest that she stick to new clay which requires little
wedging. Leave the reclaimed clay to others. Use soft clay. And I mean SOFT.
And exercise the shoulders. I used two long strips of rubber tied to the legs
of my slab table. Pulling on these several times a day in 10 rep increments
will do wonders for the shoulder muscles ( just one of the exercises given to
me).
And last, try to find a pugmill somewhere. Used or otherwise. It's a good
investment.
kathi
amy parker on sat 16 jan 99
Petite potters of relatively light weight have more difficulty wedging than
taller heftier potters. I can either wedge 11 lbs or I can throw it, but
not both in one day - not enough wrists for both!
amy parker Lithonia, GA
amyp@sd-software.com
Vince Pitelka on sat 16 jan 99
>Kathi , I have to reply to you assertion that the pug mill is the best way
to go
>Passing Clay through the pug makes it more compressed & harder , than the same
>clay hand wedged. I have found that lumps purged go off quicker.
> One does not have to wedge like a bull going at a red flag. Soft clay is
>important and a good rhythm . It is not necessary to use strength . I am 50yrs.
>old and could wedge all day without injury. I made the point that throwing with
>cold muscles is not a good idea. I would also say that I do simple stretching
>exercises regularly, to keep supple.
I have heard the same assertion from some potters. But I have heard
complaints of debilitating RMS and Carpal Tunnel from a lot more potters. I
have used a de-airing pugmill to wedge my clay for the last 20 years. The
clay which comes out is superb, easy to throw, wonderful for handbuilding.
It simply is not true that pugged clay is inherently hard and dense. The
hardness and density of pugged clay depend partially on the water content of
the clay, and partially on the degree to which the clay is de-aired, which
is in turn dependent on the speed of the machine and the degree and volume
of vacuum produced by the pump. All of these factors can be controlled (at
least they can on my pugmill!).
If you take clay which is already mixed to correct working consistency, and
pug it in a vacuum-deairing machine, you will remove some of the water and
stiffen the clay significantly. If you take the same clay and dip every
other lump in water before throwing it into the pugmill, it will come out
just fine. This is simply a matter of experimenting to determine the
correct ritual to get the pugmill to produce clay which is right for you.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
John Jensen on sun 17 jan 99
Two years ago my work load increased to the point that I've been throwing
about fifty three lb. pots a day. At the time I began this regime my
wrists were so sore and with a touch of numbness, I was afraid I'd have to
give up pottery altogether. And on the brink of a very busy profitable
period. I did two things which have kept me in business. I started a
vitamin regime of 50 mg. B6, 50 mg. B12 and 250 Mg. C every day; and I
bought a pugmill. I have the small, 3 1/2 inch deairing Venco which cost
about $1800. I create about twenty lbs of scrap a day which I recycle
through the Venco. The freshly pugged scrap is much better for throwing
than the stuff which comes straight out of the box. I still have to wedge a
bit just to shape up the weighed balls of clay for throwing. And if I don't
wedge the stuff out of the box, I get cracked bottoms. But the pugmill does
all the heavy work and I thank my lucky stars to have been able to get it. I
used to love wedging and hand mixing clay and all that. But the prospect of
losing the use of my hands was convincing.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottey, Annapolis, Md.
John Jensen, mudbug@toad.net
Mudbug Pottery
Annapolis, Md.
John K. Dellow on sun 17 jan 99
"Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI)" wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Kathi--
> I have a student who has a very severe wrist problem. She is used to throwing
> very large pieces, but now has to content herself with mid-size plugs of clay.
> Wedging is almost impossible. I've shown her how to slam-wedge rather than
> knead. We don't have a pugger at our studio. Do you have any other suggestio
> for how she might get her clay in shape? How do you manage without wedging?
> Sandy D.
>
>
> Sandy ,
> first I think your "student " needs to take a strong look at here throwing
> tecknique. Is she takeing on more than her body can handle in one lump. Her
> mustle tone may not be up it her ability. Mustle toneing exercises are a must
> a person throwing large pots.
If for instance she wants to throw a 50 lb pot , it might be prudent to cen
30 lbs & then put a 20 lb lump on top and centre again , then throw. Or throw a
lb base & a separate 20 lb bowl shape with an opening at the base. Then join lat
The trick is to have the clay as soft as the shape will take. Soft clay "
slam-wedged " should not be a problem on the wrists. The clay needs to be lifted
slammed with the minim of strength. This is what I meant about the rhythm of
wedging.
--
John Dellow "the flower pot man"
ICQ : #2193986 {jacka}
E-mail : dellow@usa.net
25 Hugh Guinea Ct, Worongary Q 4213
Ph:+61-7-55302875 Fax:+61-7-55253585
Home Page : http://welcome.to/jkdellow
Dave Finkelnburg on sun 17 jan 99
Regarding pugging and wedging, guess I need to find the rhythm because
right now it makes my wrists ache. I do find wedging great exercise and
enjoyable, otherwise. I'm also 50, and already have some symptoms of
carpal tunnel problems.
Real reason I wrote, however, was to ask your opinion on another matter,
the often asked question of attached trays on flower pots. I started in
pottery JUST to make a few flower pots and since, it's gotten a bit out of
hand. However, I still love flower pots and wondered how you view this. I
make them both ways, use them both ways, know which I prefer, but also
suspect any potters who sells anything really has to answer this question
with what the customers want. Anyway, I'm curious about your insight on
the subject. Thanks!
Dave in Idaho where so far today we've had rain, hail, snow, sun and a
thunderstorm (but it is early yet...)
----------
> From: John K. Dellow
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Pugmills
> Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 10:43 AM
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>
> Kathi , I have to reply to you assertion that the pug mill is the best
way to go
> Passing Clay through the pug makes it more compressed & harder , than
the same
> clay hand wedged. I have found that lumps purged go off quicker.
> One does not have to wedge like a bull going at a red flag. Soft clay
is
> important and a good rhythm . It is not necessary to use strength . I am
50yrs.
> old and could wedge all day without injury. I made the point that
throwing with
> cold muscles is not a good idea. I would also say that I do simple
stretching
> exercises regularly, to keep supple.
> John Dellow the flower pot man
> http:/welcome.to/jkdellow
Lili Krakowski on tue 19 jan 99
Slamming slabs of clay to wedge the clay is good. As to throwing large
lumps. I think it is E Woody who,. in her book, shows how one centers a
small piece of clay, then when it is a nice lump dries it (scrape with
rib) and centers another piece atop. Etc. Opening a large lump is not
easy with bad wrists. Some CM article showed a man opening a huge lump
with his whole fist...check it out. Also--one can throw from coils. If
you ahve an extruder, extrude coils about 1" coil build them as two rings
not more and then throw tha part. CM and I think Rhodes both have shown
pix of this process. ALSO Try throwing standing up. I have found --cannot
explain--the angles are better,easier on writsts. LAST; WHAT IS THE BIG
TZIMMES ABOUT
LARGE POTS. Lucie Rie never made huge pots. I don't think Natzler did.
Exquisite, beautiful, meaningful--that matters. BIG? Come on!
Lili Krakowski
Jodie Lorberbaum on wed 20 jan 99
Hi, is the pugmill used for mixing the clay to get out the air bubbles so it
doesn't burst in the kiln. How much are pugmills and where can you order one
from? Thank you.Jodie
Joan Hilton on thu 21 jan 99
my pugged clay is always much shorter than it is when just out of the bag. I
add water and/or slip and use aged clay, nut it does not help. It is a
Bluebird mill. Using the de-airing part, or leaving the de-airing option out
does not seem to help. It is a lo-fire white earthenware. Any suggestions?
Judith S. Musicant on thu 21 jan 99
I've been wedging clay for 20 years (as an "avocationist", not a production
potter), with no particular problem. Last year, however, I did some work
at a studio that had a pugmill. The pugged clay was quite a bit denser
than what I was used to with wedging, but I quickly got used to it.
Centering was not a problem either - just put the pug down sideways on the
wheel and patted it into a rough ball. I didn't throw larger pieces, but I
would simply have rolled a larger pug around on a wedging board to make a
rough ball to center. Bottom line, I found pugging more convenient and
much less tiresome than wedging. I decided that when and if I become a
full time potter, I would probably get a pugmill.
Judy
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) on thu 21 jan 99
Thanks, Lili.
There is no big tzimmes about throwing large pots for me, it's just that
sometimes people get a lot of satisfaction from moving big mounds of clay. I
like the idea of centering two lumps--one on top of the other. I'll try that
with her in class tonight.
However, you do bring up a major concern of mine without realizing it, which
is......how do you move students from just throwing things to really
appreciating and looking at what they make? This is a community center where
the clay classes are considered recreation....
Sandy D.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lili Krakowski [SMTP:krakowskil@cofc.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 7:40 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: Pugmills
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Slamming slabs of clay to wedge the clay is good. As to throwing large
lumps. I think it is E Woody who,. in her book, shows how one centers a
small piece of clay, then when it is a nice lump dries it (scrape with
rib) and centers another piece atop. Etc. Opening a large lump is not
easy with bad wrists. Some CM article showed a man opening a huge lump
with his whole fist...check it out. Also--one can throw from coils. If
you ahve an extruder, extrude coils about 1" coil build them as two rings
not more and then throw tha part. CM and I think Rhodes both have shown
pix of this process. ALSO Try throwing standing up. I have found --cannot
explain--the angles are better,easier on writsts. LAST; WHAT IS THE BIG
TZIMMES ABOUT
LARGE POTS. Lucie Rie never made huge pots. I don't think Natzler did.
Exquisite, beautiful, meaningful--that matters. BIG? Come on!
Lili Krakowski
Joanne Van Bezooyen on fri 22 jan 99
Sandy,
I think the best way to get a group of people to think about their clay as art i
to give them very specific guidelines for each project. For example: Make
something functional with the clay that somehow represents a painting....or
something from a painting that they love.....or....a sculpture that has one body
part, 2 handles, one geometric shape, and at least one negative space. You coul
have them work at their own pace but each project must meet their choice of
guidelines you have listed on a poster on the wall.
Joanne
Dwiggins, Sandra (NCI) wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Thanks, Lili.
> There is no big tzimmes about throwing large pots for me, it's just that
> sometimes people get a lot of satisfaction from moving big mounds of clay. I
> like the idea of centering two lumps--one on top of the other. I'll try that
> with her in class tonight.
>
> However, you do bring up a major concern of mine without realizing it, which
> is......how do you move students from just throwing things to really
> appreciating and looking at what they make? This is a community center where
> the clay classes are considered recreation....
>
> Sandy D.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lili Krakowski [SMTP:krakowskil@cofc.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 7:40 AM
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Pugmills
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Slamming slabs of clay to wedge the clay is good. As to throwing large
> lumps. I think it is E Woody who,. in her book, shows how one centers a
> small piece of clay, then when it is a nice lump dries it (scrape with
> rib) and centers another piece atop. Etc. Opening a large lump is not
> easy with bad wrists. Some CM article showed a man opening a huge lump
> with his whole fist...check it out. Also--one can throw from coils. If
> you ahve an extruder, extrude coils about 1" coil build them as two rings
> not more and then throw tha part. CM and I think Rhodes both have shown
> pix of this process. ALSO Try throwing standing up. I have found --cannot
> explain--the angles are better,easier on writsts. LAST; WHAT IS THE BIG
> TZIMMES ABOUT
> LARGE POTS. Lucie Rie never made huge pots. I don't think Natzler did.
> Exquisite, beautiful, meaningful--that matters. BIG? Come on!
>
> Lili Krakowski
Kathi LeSueur on sat 23 jan 99
In a message dated 1/22/99 8:30:16 AM, you wrote:
>my pugged clay is always much shorter than it is when just out of the bag.
I
>add water and/or slip and use aged clay, nut it does not help. It is a
>Bluebird mill
One of the advantages of buying a Bluebird pugmill, if you live in north
America, is that you can call the manufacturer directly with question. That's
what I would advise you do. You'll probably end up talking to the engineer who
designed the machine and he can walk you through any adjustments that he
thinks might be necessary. I've always found them extremely helpful.
Kathi LeSueur
Tracy Wilson on tue 26 jan 99
I have a bluebird 440 with a deairing chamber. I use 6 to 8 thousand lbs.
of clay per year. I reclaim all scraps by moistening them and then drying
in plaster bats with sides until the clay releases easily. Then I run it
through the pugmill. I'm very happy with the process and the pugmill.
Tracy
____________________________________
Tracy Wilson
Saltbox Pottery
4 Shaw Rd.
Woolwich, ME 04579
phone: 207-443-5586
fax: 207-442-8922
email: tracy@saltboxpottery.com
web: www.saltboxpottery.com
___________________________________
Martin Howard on wed 4 oct 00
Pam Herring has posted to me:-
using his vertically mounted pug mill. He also had an exhibition at NCECA
last year demonstrating it. >
I asked Potclays about providing extruder plates for the Venco de-airing
pugmills. They faxed Venco about this and received the following:-
quote:- We don't actually make dies except in special cases for the big 8"
and 10"
barrel de-airers.
We don't also advocate dies on our normal pugs as they can expose the pug to
overloading and excessive back pressure.
HOWEVER, many customers do fit dies. These can be made from Perspex or
fibreboard and just "G" clamped to the nozzle. (end quote).
There is an interesting mixture of views here. It seems that anything goes,
but I can understand that a very small open area in a strong extruder
plate/die
could cause problems of backpressure and even buckle the sieving mixer plate
in the barrel of the pug. Still, it's no great shakes to take a pug from the
pugmill and put it into a separate hand operated extruder. That can take any
size of cross section. Just means adding more muscle power.
Perhaps we will have some expert demonstrate extruder pottery over here in
the UK sometime. Unfortunately, the dies for creating hollow extrusion
forms, over here, are rather expensive.
Martin Howard
Webb's Cottage Pottery
Woolpits Road, Great Saling
BRAINTREE, Essex CM7 5DZ
England
martin@webbscottage.co.uk
Gwyn Ace on mon 14 may 01
I purchased one of the first small twin auger pugmills from Shimpo..and =
it is great. It had a couple of faults in design but these were =
attended to in later models off the production line. It is quite a job =
to clean it out thoroughly and therefore could not be recommended if you =
are switching clays/temperature ranges.This would probably apply to most =
good pugmills..Apart from this..it does a great job.With the twin =
augers..it is "self feeding"
I have not had contact with the Venco..but they seem to have a very good =
reputation and would merit serious consideration.
Gwyn in N.Z.
John Jensen on tue 15 jul 03
Joyce, what kind of pugmill do you have? I have a Venco 3 1/2 inch
deairing. These days I pug up about 25 lbs a day from my previous days
trims. I can get it to come out any way I want it to, but it requires a
bit of intuition in the blend of what goes in. I keep all my trims in a
big plastic box and I add slop, slurry and water till it seems like the
right amount. Then I grab a hand full of firm and follow it with a
handful of soft or a handful of a mixture. When the bin gets to the
bottom I might have run out of soft clay and have some hard lumps left,
or else I run out of firm clay and have a bunch of goop left, but it all
comes out right in the long run.
If any of this makes sense... What comes out the end of the pugmill
has to reflect what goes in the other, but with a lag depending on
volume of clay already in the machine.
John Jensen, Mudbug Pottery
mudbug@toadhouse.com , http://www.toadhouse.com
Joyce Lee on tue 15 jul 03
I'm frantically researching pugmills. I have a
small Bluebird pugmill and a Bluebird mixer ....
side by side. Perfect for some, I'm sure......
especially the small mixer for preparing large
batches of slip. I was gifted with both of
these before I'd ever fired a pot ..... in other
words, there was a great deal I did not know
about my own needs in a pugmill.
Besides recycling, and warming up new bags
of clay .... I'm hoping that a different pugmill will
enable me to have softer clay. The desert
starts to work immediately on any newly
pugged, purchased or wedged clay. The few
times I've thrown with softer clay I was amazed
and delighted at the ease with which I threw the
same forms I'd struggled with when throwing
stiffer clay. I am aware that my present pugmill
supposedly can meet my expectations, but it
doesn't ..... clay is too stiff generally or way too
soft and dries unevenly.... even when placed in
my abandoned freezer (unplugged) of a damp
box.
Any suggestions?
Thank you.
Joyce
In the Mojave hoping to combine my developing
desire to grow cacti .... with some one-of-a-kind
pots made for that purpose.......
psci_kw on wed 16 jul 03
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joyce Lee"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 9:13 PM
Subject: Pugmills
I'm frantically researching pugmills. I have a
small Bluebird pugmill and a Bluebird mixer ....
side by side. Perfect for some, I'm sure......
especially the small mixer for preparing large
batches of slip. I was gifted with both of
these before I'd ever fired a pot ..... in other
words, there was a great deal I did not know
about my own needs in a pugmill.
Besides recycling, and warming up new bags
of clay .... I'm hoping that a different pugmill will
enable me to have softer clay. The desert
starts to work immediately on any newly
pugged, purchased or wedged clay. The few
times I've thrown with softer clay I was amazed
and delighted at the ease with which I threw the
same forms I'd struggled with when throwing
stiffer clay. I am aware that my present pugmill
supposedly can meet my expectations, but it
doesn't ..... clay is too stiff generally or way too
soft and dries unevenly.... even when placed in
my abandoned freezer (unplugged) of a damp
box.
Any suggestions?
Thank you.
Joyce
In the Mojave hoping to combine my developing
desire to grow cacti .... with some one-of-a-kind
pots made for that purpose.......
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
Joyce: Perhaps a stupid question, but is that Bluebird one of the de-airing
variety? Could you disconnect the vaccum and leave the clay air-entrained
(it could always be wedged out later) Or, if you have decided that you
rreeaallyy don't like wedging (and I could easily avoid it, were I to have a
pugmill), could you possibly put the clay back into the mixer with a bit
more liquid (slurry?) to make it softer? It might simply be that you need
to change the formula slightly for the clay body you are using, but you
mentioned that "the desert starts to work..." Sounds like a moisture issue
to me.
Wayne in Key West
Lily Krakowski on wed 16 jul 03
We all could learn more humidity.
Ok. I do not know what de-airing does. Do know heard Soldner say he does
not like it. Forget why.
I have a 20+ year old Bluebird 440, a sturdy, chubby little girl, with a
lovely disposition. She can turn out revoltingly soft clay, or normal
throwing consistency clay. She is a wonderful low maintenance friend.
Seems to me your problem is Le Desert. And if I may suggest: put your pugs
instantly they come out of the pugmill in a dampbox. A woos?
Dampboxes. A box or cabinet made of outdoor plywood, with shelves in it.
Line the box with burlap that hangs down far enough to sit in water pans at
the bottom, and soaks the water up. (Remember those, Old Timers?) NOT FOR
PEOPLE WITH ALLERGIES TO MOLD.
Take an old refrigerator. Pans of water at the bottom. Place clay in it.
In your heat the heat on the metal should keep a steamy atmosphere in there.
Take an old picnic cooler. Put foam rubber at the bottom and glue it inside
the lid. Lid foam should be damp, not drippy. Place a pan or plastic over
the bottom so the clay does not actually sit on the wet foam, close lid,
open only to remo clay.
ALL worth trying before you invest in new equipment.
Lili Krakowski
P.O. Box #1
Constableville, N.Y.
(315) 942-5916/ 397-2389
Be of good courage....
June Perry on wed 16 jul 03
Joyce, I'm not sure if you want information on pug mills since you already
have one, or information on what to do about clay that is drying too fast.
You have several choices to solve the problem without buying a new pug mill,
unless the reason you want a new pugmill is because the one you have isn't a
deairing one and you want one that is.
I don't know how much clay you use, but if you buy enough, you can have the
clay company mix your batch super soft. That's one option. Companies differ and
you'd have to find out what their minimum amount is. Some companies will do
500 lbs and other want a minimum order of a ton. When I stopped mixing my own
clay, I used to do that and store the clay for a few months (I used to live in
Southern California too).
The other option, if the clay is the right consistency when you get it, it to
put a pan of water in the freezer where you're storing the clay. That should
help.
If the pug is too firm there are several choices there as well. Here are the
three methods I have used:
1. take the clay out of the bag and wrap it in a wet towel and wrap it in a
plastic garbage bag overnight. It think Dannon gave me this tip.
2. Open the bag of clay and put it in a 5 gallon bucket and fill the bucket
with water and let the water flow into the bag. Check it every few hours.
3. Remove the clay from the bag and cut it into slices about 5/8" to 1/2"
thick, dip each slice is a bucket of water and put back in the bag. This will
soften it pretty quickly.
4. Leave the clay in the bag and poke a bunch of holes deep in the clay using
a wooden dowel, or piece of metal rod and pour water into the holes and pour
some on the sides. Let sit overnight or till softened.
If you have both a mixer and a pug, and you can order your clay dry and mix
and pug it yourself. Since you might use 25% water in the clay, you will have
that amount of savings and then you can make the clay really soft for storing
and pug it before you use it.
I reclaim my scraps by adding a bit of water, let them sit and day and then
put them into my Soldner mixer. I then bag the clay for later use. At this
point you can put it through the pugmill for de-airing, if you have a de-airing
pugmill and it's ready to throw, or you can just store it and mix and de-air as
needed.
Warm regards,
June
John Rodgers on wed 16 jul 03
Joyce, when I worked in New Mexico all the scraps were dried out then
crushed, then put in a slip mixer with water and beaten into a slip
consistency. Basically we made a slurry that was thoroughly mixed, but
we did not defloc the mix. We were going for clay for the wheel.
After mixing, we drained the clay into large plaster bowls and let in
set for a few days. Didn't take ong for that dry climate to remove the
water sufficiently to make a clay lump. The clay lump was then run
throug our 6 inch Venco de-airing pugmill. The clay was then immediately
put into water proof plastic bags, same as clay comes from a commercial
source. . Never had any problems with it. Used that clay right out of
the pug mill on a jiggering machine. It was nice and soft and worked
really well for jiggering. Letting it dry just a bit, it was also good
for throwing on a wheel.
My $0.02
Regards,
John Rodgers
Brimingham, AL
>I'm frantically researching pugmills. I have a
>small Bluebird pugmill and a Bluebird mixer ....
>side by side. Perfect for some, I'm sure......
>especially the small mixer for preparing large
>batches of slip. I was gifted with both of
>these before I'd ever fired a pot ..... in other
>words, there was a great deal I did not know
>about my own needs in a pugmill.
>
>Besides recycling, and warming up new bags
>of clay .... I'm hoping that a different pugmill will
>enable me to have softer clay. The desert
>starts to work immediately on any newly
>pugged, purchased or wedged clay. The few
>times I've thrown with softer clay I was amazed
>and delighted at the ease with which I threw the
>same forms I'd struggled with when throwing
>stiffer clay. I am aware that my present pugmill
>supposedly can meet my expectations, but it
>doesn't ..... clay is too stiff generally or way too
>soft and dries unevenly.... even when placed in
>my abandoned freezer (unplugged) of a damp
>box.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Joyce
>In the Mojave hoping to combine my developing
>desire to grow cacti .... with some one-of-a-kind
>pots made for that purpose.......
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
>
ginger on tue 6 jul 04
Can anyone give me any good information on pugmill's that have two augers?
Which brand is the best? I only need the smaller size, so I can recycle
paper clay to be used in an extruder.
Thanks
Gail Korn on tue 11 jan 05
I have just ordered a bailey a400 pugmill. Are there any comments =
good/bad about it. Never had a pugmill before but need to save my back =
from wedging.
susan elena esquivel on fri 17 nov 06
I was wondering if anyone has any information about Bailey pugmills. I am most familiar with
Bluebirds but have a limited budget. I a trying to find something for $1800-2000. It is for a one
person studio processing about 3-4000 pounds of clay a year. I expect my production to increase
but not significantly. I was trying to compare the bluebird 440 to similar Bailey, shimpo and venco
models. I'd appreciate any feedback from owners of these that might help.
Thanks so much! susan elena
Ken & Mely Yancey on sat 18 nov 06
I really Love my Bailey A-400. The actual machine, however,
is a bit longer than what you see in their catalog. It has
three barrel sections instead of two.
As far as performance, it does a wonderful job of pugging
and de-airing the most inconsistent blobs of clay I have put
through it, then extrudes a perfectly homogeneous pug. What
I mean by "inconsistent blobs" is that I will take handfuls
of clay scrap of various moisture content but void of any
dry chunks.
If I change clays, it takes me an hour and a half to clean
it. It holds a little over ten pounds of clay inside.
I removed the stiff plastic hose from the vacuum pump and
replaced it with clear reinforced tubing. I also removed the
safety screen and plugged the holes with little plastic
plugs. This makes the machine a little easier to clean when
the time comes. I am the only user so the safety aspect is
not an issue.
The long, counter balanced handle makes it easy to plunge
clay, yet is difficult to remove and re-attach when cleaning
since it is so heavy. I solved that minor problem by using a
one inch thick block of wood between the counter balance and
the motor for support when removing/attaching. You'll see
what I mean if you purchase one.
My own personal productivity has increased two-fold, since
the chore of wedging is no longer an issue.
I have absolutely no regrets buying the Baily A-400.
Ken Yancey
susan elena esquivel wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone has any information about Bailey pugmills. I am most familiar with
> Bluebirds but have a limited budget. I a trying to find something for $1800-2000. It is for a one
> person studio processing about 3-4000 pounds of clay a year. I expect my production to increase
> but not significantly. I was trying to compare the bluebird 440 to similar Bailey, shimpo and venco
> models. I'd appreciate any feedback from owners of these that might help.
>
> Thanks so much! susan elena
>
Vince Pitelka on sat 18 nov 06
>I was wondering if anyone has any information about Bailey pugmills. I am
>most familiar with
> Bluebirds but have a limited budget. I a trying to find something for
> $1800-2000. It is for a one
> person studio processing about 3-4000 pounds of clay a year. I expect my
> production to increase
> but not significantly. I was trying to compare the bluebird 440 to similar
> Bailey, shimpo and venco
> models. I'd appreciate any feedback from owners of these that might help.
Elena -
I have not used the Bailey pugmills, but it is my impression that Jim Bailey
and the whole company have high standards of ethics and quality, and stand
behind whatever they build. Their wheels are quite fine, and their gas
kilns are the standard for institutional installations. I can't see how you
could go wrong, especially if it is a better deal than the Bluebird, which
is also a fine machine.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
Vantuil Varges on sun 19 nov 06
I have used a BAILEY pugmill, their smallest model with a vacuum, and
I can sing it's praises. It has worked fine for two years I've been
using it. No problems whatsoever. Bailey has been a great company to
deal with. Whenever any problem occurs, as I had with a wheel, they
strive to solve it. Just great folks to deal with. I've stuck with
their products not only because they work well, but also because they
will be there if a problem occurs.
Vantuil
On Nov 18, 2006, at 7:37 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>> I was wondering if anyone has any information about Bailey
>> pugmills. I am
>> most familiar with
>> Bluebirds but have a limited budget. I a trying to find something for
>> $1800-2000. It is for a one
>> person studio processing about 3-4000 pounds of clay a year. I
>> expect my
>> production to increase
>> but not significantly. I was trying to compare the bluebird 440 to
>> similar
>> Bailey, shimpo and venco
>> models. I'd appreciate any feedback from owners of these that
>> might help.
>
> Elena -
> I have not used the Bailey pugmills, but it is my impression that
> Jim Bailey
> and the whole company have high standards of ethics and quality,
> and stand
> behind whatever they build. Their wheels are quite fine, and their
> gas
> kilns are the standard for institutional installations. I can't
> see how you
> could go wrong, especially if it is a better deal than the
> Bluebird, which
> is also a fine machine.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft, Tennessee Technological University
> Smithville TN 37166, 615/597-6801 x111
> vpitelka@dtccom.net, wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
> http://www.tntech.edu/craftcenter/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
Dale Neese on sat 22 dec 07
Hi ya Wayne,
of course it's all about the clay and the throwing habits you've developed
over time. We all find out what works and what doesn't. I spend as much time
throwing as anything else. An efficient pugmill allows me to do that. I
prefer to throw with mainly reclaimed clay. Not right out of the bag.
Usually the clay from a supplier contains plenty of water to keep it from
drying out and being unsellable from his stock pile. When you put it on the
wheel and add more water, well, you end up fighting with it. I do use a lot
of clay, several clay bodies for different fired results and the majority of
what I purchase from a supplier gets processed through the pugmill first
with a good portion of firm reclaim, not slop. Then it sits for a while and
I throw with good aged plastic but firm hand wedged clay from my stash that
is prepared to my liking. I can expand and thin the clay without fear of
collapse. Tall cylinders, bottle forms are of no problem. People ask me what
clay body I use and I can only respond "several" when 3 different stoneware
clay bodies get into the slip bucket. I also bring my own clay to demos.
They may furnish free clay to use but I only work with my own. I also bring
my own 20 year old handbuilt padded stool to sit on at the wheel. Dang, some
of these demo places with wheels have everything from a short milking stool
to a worn out lawn chair to sit on at the wheel. It's all about the clay and
what works for you.
Christmas Cheer!
"across the alley from the Alamo"
San Antonio, Texas USA
celia hirsh on wed 16 sep 09
Although I appreciate the three responses to my question regarding the
efficiency of your pug
mills, yesterday's discussion focussed on Vegemite, coffee and Oreos!
This is the only venue we have to openly talk about specific,
identifiable products. I keep finding myself in the frustrating
position of discovering the flaws in a piece of equipment, after I've
invested in it. The money wasted is bad enough, but the time invested
in figuring out what precisely is the issue, (as I tend to think I've
done something wrong, rather than blame the manufacturer), is the
worst part of it.
So, please, whoever has had experience with a pug mill/de-airing
machine - share it with me.
Thanks,
Celia Hirsh
www.hirshpottery.com
Brenda Phillips on wed 16 sep 09
I purchased a Peter Pugger VPM 9 about 2 years ago and was having =3D
trouble with porcelain. I returned the pugmill (I live close to Ukiah, =3D
CA) and they coated the inside for free. It now works great.
Brenda
Manchester, CA
Lorraine Pierce on wed 16 sep 09
Celia, I do not think the Venco pugmill that you mentioned, the twin
stainless steel one, will mix as you may think...as you know, you have to
prepare the clay before it can be pugged to greatest advantage. I have a
wonderful old Venco but need a mixer to go with it if I put in anything
other than that days still damp scrap and adjust the clay's moisture as I
pug, sometimes sending it thru several times. I know how frustrated you are
and your work is beautiful. Have you considered asking some of the other
professional porcelain potters directly, one on one? Might work! Lori Pierc=
e
in Fl.
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:04 AM, celia hirsh wrote=
:
> Although I appreciate the three responses to my question regarding the
> efficiency of your pug
> mills, yesterday's discussion focussed on Vegemite, coffee and Oreos!
>
> This is the only venue we have to openly talk about specific,
> identifiable products. I keep finding myself in the frustrating
> position of discovering the flaws in a piece of equipment, after I've
> invested in it. The money wasted is bad enough, but the time invested
> in figuring out what precisely is the issue, (as I tend to think I've
> done something wrong, rather than blame the manufacturer), is the
> worst part of it.
>
> So, please, whoever has had experience with a pug mill/de-airing
> machine - share it with me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Celia Hirsh
> www.hirshpottery.com
>
Birgit Wright on wed 16 sep 09
Hi Brenda=3D3B What cone porcelain do you use and where do you get your cla=
y =3D
or what recipe do you use? I am pretty far from california so I don't want=
=3D
to waste anyones time sending my VPM-9 hither and yon=3D2C if it isn't co=
ne=3D
6 or I am not able to access the clay=3D2C Though I would mix it myself if=
t=3D
here was a recipe.
Remaining hopeful=3D2C Birgit Wright=3D2C Ontario=3D2C Canada
=3D20
> Date: Wed=3D2C 16 Sep 2009 07:37:06 -0700
> From: brenphil@MCN.ORG
> Subject: pugmills
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=3D20
> I purchased a Peter Pugger VPM 9 about 2 years ago and was having trouble=
=3D
with porcelain. I returned the pugmill (I live close to Ukiah=3D2C CA) and=
t=3D
hey coated the inside for free. It now works great.
>=3D20
>=3D20
> Brenda
> Manchester=3D2C CA
_________________________________________________________________
New! Open Messenger faster on the MSN homepage
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D3D9677405=3D
Carolyn Boeri on fri 6 nov 09
Hi all,
I really need a pugmill, I have not kept up with recylcling the clay and =
=3D
lets face it am not about to start now that I am so far behind the =3D
eightball. Anyone have advice for me in the best for my money, with =3D
deairing. I am not a production potter. This is for a one person studio =3D
with use on average of 2-3times a week. Handbuilding, wheel throwing and =
=3D
extruding. I do seem to come up with a good amount of waste no matter =3D
how careful or ingenious I am at using scraps.
Thanks,
Carolyn in Vermont
Michael Wendt on fri 6 nov 09
Carolyn,
In my opinion you should do the math first.
calculate this way:
cost of pugmill
cost of space needed
time needed to recycle
cost of additional clay to dry out the recycle
Compare those costs to throwing out scrap and buying new
clay. How much cost savings is there with a pugmill in a
small studio?
It takes many years for recycling commercially bought clay
to pay for even a small pugmill when you factor in your time
and the initial purchase price.
In contrast, mixing your own clay from local materials with
properly configured equipment ( a ribbon blender, then a
pugmill) pays dividends throughout a lifetime despite the
time cost. People love the fact that the items you make are
from local materials which helps sales.
A Peter Pugger is probably the exception to the pugmill rule
since it batch mixes which allows you to adjust moisture
content by adding dry materials a little at a time before
pugging out or to start from scratch with your own clay
formulation.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Carolyn in Vermont wrote:
Hi all,
I really need a pugmill, I have not kept up with recylcling
the clay and lets face it am not about to start now that I
am so far behind the eightball. Anyone have advice for me in
the best for my money, with deairing. I am not a production
potter. This is for a one person studio with use on average
of 2-3times a week. Handbuilding, wheel throwing and
extruding. I do seem to come up with a good amount of waste
no matter how careful or ingenious I am at using scraps.
Thanks,
Carolyn in Vermont
Birgit Wright on fri 6 nov 09
Hello Carolyn=3D3B The business of Pugmills is very fresh for me. I had r=
ec=3D
ently gotten a Peter Pugger VPM-9=3D2C the smallest they have. I was workin=
g =3D
with cone 6 porcelain. I learned that the potasium in that clay body reacts=
=3D
with the aluminum housing of the pugger because of the friction created du=
=3D
ring mixing. Little hard chunks would form=3D2C causing throwing to feel l=
ik=3D
e there was hundreds of tiny air bubbles=3D2C very frustrating. Also it was=
e=3D
vident when cleaning it out that the housing was subject to corrosion if I=
=3D
continue with the cone 6 porcelian. A stainless steel pugger like venco's =
=3D
does not de-air but would not react with the potasium.
As arthritis is an issue for me I wanted the de-airing as well as the mix=
=3D
ing. So I have changed my clay body to cone 6 white stoneware=3D2C its a l=
it=3D
tle different but I'm adaptable=3D2C really I'm finding quite nice to work=
w=3D
ith.
=3D20
So=3D2C after sorting out these issues I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND THE PETTE=
R =3D
PUGGER VPN-9 for a one person studio. Unless you are using cone 6 porcelain=
=3D
=3D2C except Melissa Schooly is working on a solution to that problem since=
t=3D
hat is her preferred clay body. I just didn't have the time to wait. Alth=
=3D
ough if a solution emerges I may rethink my decision.
=3D20
Good luck=3D2C Birgit Wright=3D20
=3D20
=3D20
> Date: Fri=3D2C 6 Nov 2009 07:23:22 -0500
> From: claychi_04@VERMONTEL.NET
> Subject: Re: pugmills
> To: Clayart@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>=3D20
> Hi all=3D2C
> I really need a pugmill=3D2C I have not kept up with recylcling the clay =
an=3D
d lets face it am not about to start now that I am so far behind the eightb=
=3D
all. Anyone have advice for me in the best for my money=3D2C with deairing.=
I=3D
am not a production potter. This is for a one person studio with use on av=
=3D
erage of 2-3times a week. Handbuilding=3D2C wheel throwing and extruding. I=
d=3D
o seem to come up with a good amount of waste no matter how careful or inge=
=3D
nious I am at using scraps.
> Thanks=3D2C
> Carolyn in Vermont
=3D20
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=3D92re up to =
on=3D
Facebook.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=3D3D9691816=3D
Snail Scott on fri 6 nov 09
On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Carolyn Boeri wrote:
> I really need a pugmill, I have not kept up with recylcling the clay...
> This is for a one person studio with use on average of 2-3times a
> week. Handbuilding, wheel throwing and extruding...
It's clay. It's not toxic waste, nor especially valuable.
If you used more clay, even low-value waste would
add up the savings if recycled, but how much would
you have to reprocess before it paid for the pugmill?
And a pugmill requires some time as well. Not as
much as reclaiming by hand, but not zero, either.
Waste seems wrong at a basic gut level, but you've
gotta look at it thoughtfully. Sometimes trying to save
something wastes more (more time, money, floor
space, natural resources, etc) than it really preserves.
What's the environmental impact of putting clay back
into the ground, compared with manufacturing and
shipping an entire pugmill? If you used it daily, it
would be worth it, but it sounds like it wouldn't be
used often enough to justify itself even if you have
plenty of money to spend and space to park it in.
Not everything needs to be saved.
It's just dirt. Nice dirt, but dirt. Reclaim the easy fresh
stuff, chuck out the recalcitrant scrap with a clear
conscience, and spend your money and time on new
clay instead.
-Snail
Dana & Chris Trabka on fri 6 nov 09
Reclaiming scraps and waste for the sake of reclaiming is one consideration=
.
Using a pug mill to get the clay to the consistency where it makes it easie=
r
to throw and saves your joints is quite another matter. I am sure that ther=
e
are many of us who are feeling the pinch of our aging bodies; not that we
don't take care of our bodies but they are getting older. Is a $3,000 pug
mill worth the price of three tons of thrown out clay (my last order from
Continental)? A point to consider. Is a $3,000 pug mill worth the price of =
5
to 7 years of refining your voice when you are at the pinnacle of your
abilities? You decide.
Chris
Sally Guger on fri 6 nov 09
On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Carolyn Boeri wrote:
> I really need a pugmill, I have not kept up with recylcling the clay...
> This is for a one person studio with use on average of 2-3times a
> week. Handbuilding, wheel throwing and extruding...
=3DA0
Hello Clayarters, I've been one of those "lurkers" lately, and usually thin=
=3D
k of my 2 cents worth well after a subject has been adequately discussed. H=
=3D
owever, I do have a very strong opinion about pugmills.
=3DA0
Snail's comment about how much clay one could throw out before wasting as m=
=3D
uch as a pugmill would cost, makes a lot of sense- but I still would feel r=
=3D
eally bad throwing clay out!=3DA0=3D20
=3DA0
I love my Peter Pugger. It is expensive, but it so effortless to use once y=
=3D
ou get the hang of it. The hopper is large, there are no screens to clean o=
=3D
ut- I never even run it on "mix" just on "pug." If the clay isn't perfect w=
=3D
hen it comes out- I just throw it back in. (I don't mix from dry clays.)
=3DA0
I have the de-airing model but tend to mix a little soft, and then quickly =
=3D
wedge what comes out. De-airing is nice when I take the time. Right now we =
=3D
have an attachment on the one we use at the high school where I teach, It e=
=3D
xtrudes a wide assortment of coils. The student wanting the coils wanted co=
=3D
ne 6 white and we were running a mixture of our cone 6 tan and our white cl=
=3D
ay. So I let her open new boxes of white and feed enough through it until s=
=3D
he got close enough to all white. We didn't have to unbolt it and clean it =
=3D
all out which isn't that bad to do either.
=3DA0
For the years and years that you'll have perfect reclaim, I think it's wort=
=3D
h it.=3D20
Sally in Wisconsin!!=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A
Tracey Duivestein on sat 7 nov 09
Is a pugmill the only way to go or are there other options available for
your reclaim. One of our local clay suppliers buys clay scrap from
potters, recycles it & sells it back for slightly more than he paid. A
win /win situation for all. No scraps lying around, a very cheap,
usable clay in return & no cost outlay for machinery.
Tracey
Near Stanford, South Africa
> On Nov 6, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Carolyn Boeri wrote:
>
>> I really need a pugmill, I have not kept up with recylcling the clay...
>> This is for a one person studio with use on average of 2-3times a
>> week. Handbuilding, wheel throwing and extruding...
>>
>
>
>
>
Michael Wendt on sat 7 nov 09
We have a pugmill and never gather up slops and scrap and
put them back in. I tried that years ago and found the hair,
dirt and chunks of unknown hard stuff ruined hundreds of
dollars worth of pots.
Now, for the pugmill, we save only clean clay and keep it
moist at all times. Broken dry pots are collected,
hammermilled, screened and only then made back into clay.
The reason I don't think a pugmill is needed for a small
studio is stack and slam wire wedging solves problems of
soft and stiff clay faster and better than a pugmill can.
When I need a specific degree of stiffness for a larger
vase, I blend pieces of clay from hard pugs with some form
softer pugs. By changing how much of each I use I can
quickly zero in in the proportion needed for the specific
job.
Stack and slam wire wedging is low stress and very fast,
usually requiring les than a minute and 30 seconds to do 30
doublings , creating over a billion layers of staggering
uniformity. This also solves many warping and cracking
issues with more plastic clays.
Take the $3000 and buy clay only when you need it and toss
the bad scrap and slops.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
KATHI LESUEUR on sat 7 nov 09
When considering whether to buy a pugmill or not, reclaiming clay is
just one consideration. I pug all of my clay even straight from the
bag. I've had two wrist surgeries and wedging is not something I want
to be doing frequently. If I'd bought a pugmill sooner I'd have
probably not needed those surgeries. My first pugmill was a Bluebird
studio model, not stainless. That was 1979. I sold it in 1990 and
it's still in operation. I then replaced it with a Bluebird
Powerstar. It was quite an investment, but well worth it. I do lots
of extruding and the Bluebirds can handle the load. Even my little
one could easily extrude and I paid for it many times over with just
my extruded business card holders that I made 100 at a time. I was
never able to be that efficient with my hand extruder. So, I would
say, look at what you do and what you want to do in the future. A
pugmill can make sense even for a small studio.
KATHI LESUEUR
http://www.lesueurclaywork.com
>
>
>
>
Carolyn Boeri on wed 11 nov 09
Thanks for all the responses regarding pugmills. I will take them all =3D
into consideration as I revamp my space. I will let you know what I end =3D
up with.
chugging along,
Carolyn
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