pyrometers

updated mon 26 dec 11

chull@startext.net on wed 9 oct 96

I have 3 Paragon digital pyrometers, none of which are working correctly
and one is only a few months old. What experience is there among list
members with using these devices as to which type, digital or needle,
and manufacturer is the most reliable?

TIA
Cynthia
TX

Don Sanami on thu 10 oct 96

Cynthia, If you balance one Pyrometer against the others,you should come
out with some reasonable average number.At which point you might set all
three pyrometers and repeat the process.Although we have used a normal
needle(!) pyrometer for many years,we have never depended upon these
devices since it would be rare to find the temperature indication the
same at various levels in the kiln. Cones are most reliable since they
indicate,(within 12oC/f) the maturity of the clay. This has little to do
with the indicasted temperature overall. Perhaps the best of the digital
lot would be the FLUKE which has,I believe, three scales. Even so. one
measures only a single point in the kiln or,at best half-adozen points.
Cones and eyebvalls work best. Don & IsaoOn Wed, 9 Oct 1996
chull@startext.net wrote:

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I have 3 Paragon digital pyrometers, none of which are working correctly
> and one is only a few months old. What experience is there among list
> members with using these devices as to which type, digital or needle,
> and manufacturer is the most reliable?
>
> TIA
> Cynthia
> TX
>

David Woodin clayart Digest on thu 10 oct 96

I would be surprised if three digital pyrometers are bad. I would first
look at the thermocouples. Is the tip exposed ? If so you may note a
greenish color or black with silver specks or just plain smaller in diameter.
Ceramic supply houses are notorious for selling open tip thermocouples and
not telling you that the option is to get a porcelain protecting tube.
Industry would never use an unprotected thermocouple in a kiln. The other
problem could be that the ambient temperature gets too hot. Electronics
shouldn't be exposed to temperature above 120 F. or below 32 F. Didgital
pyrometers are the best choice and most ceramic supply houses sell good ones
such as Fluke. Omega also has a good hand held one, there number is
1-800-826-6342, the one I use is Omega HH-22 (dual input type K)

Kenneth D. Westfall on thu 10 oct 96

I agree with David chances are the meter is not at fault but the
thermocouple. Check the conections between thermocouple and the lead wires
and the lead wires and the meter. Kiln gases can be corrosive and the
connection can be bad. A little steel wool will shine the metal to metal
connection. Also if you have a freind with a multi meter which mesure mill
volts you can heat the thermocouple, and use it to check if it is putting
out any electric current. A pyrometer that uses infra-red is probably the
most accurate but very expensive. I use cones and a pyrometers to determine
that the kiln is still climbing in temp.
DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MUDPIES--K & T

chull@startext.net on fri 11 oct 96

Kenneth D. Westfall wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I agree with David chances are the meter is not at fault but the
> thermocouple. Check the conections between thermocouple and the lead wires
> and the lead wires and the meter. Kiln gases can be corrosive and the
> connection can be bad. A little steel wool will shine the metal to metal
> connection. Also if you have a freind with a multi meter which mesure mill
> volts you can heat the thermocouple, and use it to check if it is putting
> out any electric current. A pyrometer that uses infra-red is probably the
> most accurate but very expensive. I use cones and a pyrometers to determine
> that the kiln is still climbing in temp.
> DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MUDPIES--K & T

Pyrometer #1- Plug it in and it reads something like this:
395,4027,42,-5993,279,-102, etc., etc.,
Pyrometer #2- Plug it in it reads: 1 , way over on the left side, try
tipping it on it's side or back and it works fine if you don't touch it.
Pyrometer #3- Plug it in, works fine till it reaches 100 then it is
suddenly transformed to 4000 and after that who knows. By the way, this
one came new from the factory with a different probe that has no
ceramic cover.(!)

I test them with cones to deal with "accuracy" and use cones when firing
but with a gas kiln I like to monitor the rate of climb. The
connections look fine, the wires look fine, and the probes look fine
too.

Still wondering who might be building a better mouse trap.....
Cynthia
TX

David Woodin clayart Digest on fri 11 oct 96

It certainly seems like you have problems with your pyrometers and should
call the people that sold them to you. A quick way to test a pyromenter is
to disconnect the input and short the input with a wire , paper clip needle
nose pliers, whatever and it should read ambient temperature. If it does
reconnect and short at the thermocouple end after removing the thermocouple
this should still read ambient and proves that your wiring is okay. Shorting
with the thermocouple connected should still read ambient unless the
thermocouple is at some elavated temperature.
David

Kenneth D. Westfall on fri 11 oct 96

Cynthia
Your pyrometers problems sound like it's one not easly fixed. The first
pyrometers scream of a bad thermocouple. From your discription you are
using digital pyrometers which can be sensitve to battery voltage level if
they are battery powered. If they run on 110 volt you could have had a
voltage spike come though and fried them. Number 3 sould like you have the
wrong thermocouple, there three to four differant thermocouple which produce
differant voltage. Hard to say without seeing them just what is wrong.
There is a good article in "The Studio Potter" magazine june 1990 volume 18
number 2, by John Terragni all about Pyrometers and pyrometer assemblies
which could help you out. I use either a old pyrometer made for L and L
kilns, or a pocket digital volt meter conected to a thermocouple. the old
pyrometer is a basic galvanic analog meter, no battery or electric need. The
volt meter dosen't give me actual temperature just a positive or negitive
temperature direction. You can convert the mill volt readings to degrees
with the tables show in John's article. Fluke makes pyrometer and if it as
good as there other meter you can go wrong with it. Fluke meters can be
found in W W Grainger, a supply house which has stores in most large cities
and does catalog sells. Sorry I don't have there phone number. Hope this
is some help Kenneth
DON'T GET STUCK IN THE MUDPIES--K & T

jules on fri 25 jul 97

-------------------
Considering investing in a pyrometer. Sad to say, the Clayart Archives only
went back to 2/97. Seems the previous discussion on pyrometers was both =
before
my time and before the archives'. The only relevant hit discussed a O.D.
thermocouple. Could someone enlighten me? I am looking for a reliable =
=5E10
pyrometer that will hold up in reduction. May be able to salvage one from a
friend in industry, but I don't even know what to ask for. Would a type R =
or S
work? Can send info to me directly at bluefire=40amaonline.com. Thanks=21

"John Baymore (by way of Richard Gralnik on sat 26 jul 97

I'm taking the liberty of reposting one of John Baymore's encyclopedic
discussions, this one on pyrometers. Someone asked for info on them
but this predates the archives. I hope it helps.

I'll also post one from another of our fountains of information, Karl
Platt. I hope no one minds.

Richard



----------------------------Original message----------------------------
From: Corinne Null
Subject: small cones vs. controller

----------------------------Original ----------------------------

........... So, kiln sitter and witness cones validate each other.
Must b
that
controller has funny numbering system. Guess I just have to get used to it?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Corinne,

This thermocouple, pyrometer, and controller thing is sort of like the
discussion that's been going on about barium and glaze chemistry.......
there is
a lot more to it than first meets the eye. Now we're leaning into the
realm of
kilns......... as you know, that' s an area in which I have some expertise
.

Many of the things we "assume" to be true from "experiential logic" are simply
not. A pyrometer seems like such a simple thing on the surface. Stick a
probe
in the kiln and attach a gauge to read the result. Yet there are
complexities
untold in these devices. The pottery suppliers haven't helped the situation
much either. They have us expecting a cheap "magic bullet" in these things.

The controller on your kiln uses type K thermocouples, most likely, like
99.9999999999% of all equipment supplied to the craft potters. The Seebeck
coefficients (temperature change related to voltage change created) for
Chromel
/ Alumel type thermocouples (K) goes somewhat non-linear at the top end of the
use range. Seriously oversimplified, this means that one unit temp change no
longer results in one unit voltage change. That makes the software for the
controller a bit difficult for the programmer, and the conversion from
millivolts to degrees gets less accurate as the temp goes up.

For example, the Seebeck for the 50 degree interval from 600C to 650C
changes .3
millivolts per degree Centegrade. As you get up to 850C to 900C, it changes
more, from 40.5 mV/dC to 40 mV/dC....... a change of .5 millivolts. From
1150C
to 1200C it goes from 37.2 mV/dC to 36.5 mV/dC, a change of .7 millivolts.
From
1200C to 1250C, it changes .8 millivolts. The software has to take this
increasing "curve" into account.


Worse, the ASTM recommends type K for use only up to a max of 1260C. So a
firing to cone 10 (150C/ hr....... 9 hours+/-) is pushing the absolute
limit of
their usefulness by a great factor...... 105 degrees C over the max. use
rating
of the sensor. So they simply should not be used for cone 9-10 kilns. Yet
they
are all the time.

Continuing this complex picture, that rating is for PROTECTED (more on that
later) thermocouples of AWG (wire thickness) of 8 ......... yes EIGHT!!!!
(pretty darn thick) The maximum use rating goes DOWN to 1090C (1970ish F) for
AWG 14 (look at household 14-2 wire for a size comparison), 980C for AWG
20, and
870C for AWG 24.

So...... what gauge (AWG) are your thermocouples? I think your kiln's
manufacturer uses 8 AWG...... they do on the single pyros they sell. Not sure
on the controllers though. Look at the household wire....look at your
thermocouples. If it is AWG 14, it is only recommended to be accurate by ASTM
(within all the other constraints) for use up to about cone 4!!!!!!
Enlightening, huh?

Next, you have to look at the design accuracy of the manufacturing process to
start with. ASTM specs that the initial calibration of type K is +/- 2.2C or
..75% (whichever is GREATER) between 0 and 1200C. That is the BEST it will
ever
be....when it is brand new. At 1200C, that allowable .75% is +/- 9
degrees. At
cone nine, plus or minus 9 degrees C is about 1/3 a cone (ignoring the
heat-work
concept for simplicity)!

Plus, you have to deal with the accuracy of the meter (or controller). Some
analog meters are only accurate within 2% of full scale to start with. If
full
scale is 1300C then it is only accurate +/- 26 degrees C, and THAT is of the
thermocouple output which is also only +/- 9 degrees C!

Additionally, type K is subject to oxidation when used IN AIR above 750C.
This
oxidation results in the electrical output changing, and the need for constant
recalibration. This recalibration requires some electronic equipment that
costs
a lot of $, and some skill to use. (Industry recalibrates on a regular
schedule to maintain precise production control.) Type K should not be
used in
reduction atmospheres or sulpherous ones, so ASTM also says they are best used
enclosed in a sealed tube with an inert gas........ (a thing you'll never
see in
a potters kiln!) BTW..... A vacume on the protection tube is also a no-no.

In general, for cone 9-10 use, type K is useless for REALLY accurate work
at the
top of the temperature range. They are used on "potters kilns" simply
because
they are CHEAP, and most potters won't pay for the platnium/ 10%
platnium-rhodium (type S) thermocouples and control systems that really should
be used (and the more expensive plated switches and contacts that entails).
Type K simply are more resistant to oxidation than the really cheap types E,
J,and T at temps over 500C, so they got pressed into use.

So you DO just get used to the fact that the temperature shown is not
really the
temperature in the kiln (pretty bad since that is what you are lead to beleive
you are paying for! :( You also get used to the fact that the accuracy
will change with time. You "work around" the inherent inaccuracy. So all the
fancy "scientific" sounding precision of these controllers supposedly offer is
subject to a lot of variables.

What these controllers SEEM to promise (incredible accuracy), CAN be done, but
not at the price point that they have to occupy to meet the budget of a studio
craftsperson. Industry has much better stuff.

YET.................................., it is still far better than the old
"seat
of the pants", look in the kiln, sniff the wind, discuss it for a half-hour,
throw salt over your shoulder, stuff we used to do (I fire a wood kiln....I
still do all that stuff!).

Luckily, most potter's applications are not all that critical at the top
end of
the firing for cone 9-10 work. So the manufacturers get away with type K in
most cases. If you are getting into trouble and need more accuracy, you will
have to change controllers to one that uses the platnium thermocouples. And
it'll cost you some $$$. But from the sound of it in the thread, you just
need
to understand the limitations of the tool, and work with it.


........................................john


PS: If your readings are that far off and you DO have type S (or type R or B)
thermocouples, call the kiln supplier. Something is really off there with the
controller.

PPS: Nice to see you at the Mary Rohem lecture at the Phoenix Workshops
yesterday.

PPPS: Don K. gave you a GREAT answer on the cone / controller question!!!


John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
Wilton, NH

76506.3102@Compuserve.com

http://www/CraftWEB.com/org/jbaymore/rivrbend/shtml

"Karl P. Platt (by way of Richard Gralnik on sat 26 jul 97

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Oi gente! Eu quero aumentar o conversacao de Joao Baymore sobre os pirometros.

The richly detailed post was quite on the mark, and I wanted to supplement it
with a few additional points and a couple practical observations.

First the practical observations.

The garden variety $60.00 pyrometer rig a potter is apt to buy from the
ceramic
supply should not be relied on for much more than the most general
indication of
what the temperature within the kiln, oven or furnace might be. The amount of
precision anyone can build into one of these instruments -- even if they build
it in China -- is very strictly limited. Note that the meter faces of most are
marked off in 25 degree increments.

A lot of glass people have had to sweep out their kilns of the rubble produced
by relying on cheesy low-rent pyrometers for the critical annealing process --
annealing is also critical in potting, but that's another post.

It should be mentioned that voltage arriving at the meter is proportional
to the
temperature difference between the tip of the T/C and its connections on the
back of the meter. What this means is that if the ambient temperature at the
meter varies from one day to the next, there will be an error roughly equal to
this difference. Some meters, especially the digital versions -- are
compensated
for this, but it's not at all common. This is to say that on a day to day or
seasonal basis there are indeed differences that can be large if the kiln is
kept out in an unheated shed in, say, Ohio. Likewise, this is why one wouldn't
want to mount the meter on the kiln. Further, it should be noted that these
kiln
mounted controllers are subject to this type of error as the temperature at
the
T/C connections at the controller do vary quite a lot and there are
versions out
these that use real cheap methods of compensation (semi-conductors) that
aren't, in my experience, very effective.

The "zero" point of the meter needs to be set to read ambient temperature (not
zero) with the T/C *disconnected*. In regions with large ambient temperature
changes, it's a good idea to do this a couple times each year -- summer and
winter.

Doing anything else is to "calibrate" a meter simply dumb. I say this because
there was once this glass guy who wrote a magazine article describing this
absurd process of "calibrating" a pyrometer by observing when the endpoint
of a
cone had been reached, and then using the adjusting screw to force the to
meter
read what the endpoint of the cone would have been had it been fired under
specified conditions. This practice, of course, introduces _huge_ errors.

Type K thermocouples are quite subject to deteriorate. Hard core reduction,
volatile glazes and temperatures of 850 oC (2000 oF) all encourage this. It is
normal for a type K to give lowered output over time, and replacement is the
only fix -- not twiddling with the meter zero adjusting screw. The metals
making
up the T/C oxidize, and since oxides aren't capable of producing the
voltage the
meter needs, the more oxide there is, the lower the readings will be.

The platinum based Type S or R T/C will last almost forever if you spend the
extra $50.00 to put it in a protection tube. Yes, they cost more, but they
last. If pyrometry is genuinely essential in your process, and this is real
rare in potting, Pt- based T/Cs are the deluxe route for your deluxe pots.

In a pinch, it's not the end ot the world if one uses, oh, lampcord to
carry the
T/C voltage to the meter. What you have to do is use a length of proper T/C
leadwire to carry the voltage away from the kiln far enough so that the
connections are at the same ambient temperature as the meteror controller.
I had
a client who connected their T/Cs using common lamp cord and given that the
connections at the kiln were subject to vary in temperature as the firing
proceeded, real substantial errors were seen. A load of ware was trashed owing
to this. As the T/Cs were fed to a PC I/O board (they have the GTC control
unit), and the board was some 40' from the kiln, using the "official" wire was
an expensive proposition for all 10 of their kilns. After some thought and
debate, it was decided to try one with a full length of "official" wire and
one
with a shorter length attached to the cheaper Cu conductor. The differences
noted over several days were very small in practiced and as verified using a
millivolt potentiometer w/ reference junction. As such a 10' length of
"official" wire is now attached to a 30' run of Cu wire and life is good.

I have to get back to work.

KPP -- dreaming of muqueqa de mariscos

kinoko@junction.net on sat 26 jul 97

Dear Jules, Copper copnic T.C.'s for low temperature work...Iron constantan
for one step up. Chromel Alumel, is what is most genarally used up to around
2400of. Platinum Rhodium is best when it is protected within a S.S. or
porceline shield. Altough Chromel Alumel is usually supplied in 18G wires
with the welded thermocouple tip exposed, I have an old industrial T.C. of
which the wires are nearly 1/8" in diameter,(#6?) This should outlast me!.
IMHO, The FLUKE,(Fluke Instruments) is an excellent instrument...and
expensive. Some companies: Fluke...Brown Instruments, Foxburo, Guages and
other instruments. You may find the addresses in any copy of a commercial
directory at local library. Although we use an old pyrometer as an
indicator,we never rely on it but use it in conjuction with cones and the
eyeball. In fact,for most,(Repeat: most) purposes a simple M illiampmeter
from Radio Shack in conjuction with a T.C. works well enough,although its
use demands repeated experience. Don M.>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>-------------------
>Considering investing in a pyrometer. Sad to say, the Clayart Archives only
>went back to 2/97. Seems the previous discussion on pyrometers was both before
>my time and before the archives'. The only relevant hit discussed a O.D.
>thermocouple. Could someone enlighten me? I am looking for a reliable ^10
>pyrometer that will hold up in reduction. May be able to salvage one from a
>friend in industry, but I don't even know what to ask for. Would a type R or S
>work? Can send info to me directly at bluefire@amaonline.com. Thanks!
>
>
*****************************************
*****************************************
** Don and Isao Morrill **
** Falkland, B.C. **
** kinoko@junction.net **
*****************************************
*****************************************

David Woodin Set Clayart Digest on sun 27 jul 97

All of the recent posts about pyrometers are interesting and mostly true.
But what does the potter need and where can he or she get it. Grainger is a
good source for the Fluke battery operated digital type K indicator. Omega
has not only the indicator but the industrial thermocouples. The catch is
you need to have a business license or be a contractor to buy from them. If
at this point a potter still wants this type pf equipment than send me an
e-mail at DWoodin@AOL.com I am still connected with industrial
instrumentation.
David

Toni Hall on wed 7 jan 98

Clayart People,
I bought a used kiln and a separate pyrometer, and found out later that the
pyrometer does not work. It doesn't do anything when put into a firing kiln.
It looks like it is in good shape, and I have another one just like it and it
works great. This one is dead as a doornail. Do any of you have any
suggestions on what (or what not) to do to work on them. My husband is real
good at fixing things, but this is not the usual car, toaster, etc. Any
advise is welcome, even including where one might find parts for repair. TIA,
Toni in NM, where we are still digging out from under 22" of snow and more is
coming tonight.

Cynthia Spencer on fri 4 dec 98

If you're a speed junkie, less techie potter like me, DIGITAL is the only
way to go!! Short of getting an oxy probe, digital numbers tell you
immediately if that last adjustment of the primary air, or the damper has
put you into slight reduction, or reduction STALL. I use my pyrometer
less as a true gauge of the temp, as a guide to how I'm doing. Yes, I
read flame and smell, etc., but when I want to make sure I'm in beddie
bye before too late, I thank my digital pyrometer for helping me get
there an hour or two sooner. The analogs I've seen, albeit oldies, all,
just weren't precise enough in their movement to give me quick answers.
Analog watches over digital ANY DAY, but give me those little flashing
numbers of a digital pyrometer!

Cynthia



cynthia.spencer@cmug.com
541-753-4606
Corvallis, OR

McCoy, Jack Eugene on wed 13 jan 99

I'm interested in purchasing a pyrometer for my wood kiln. Any
suggestions/recommendations?

Morgan A. Britt on fri 15 jan 99

I purchased a standard long stemmed pyrometer from our local ceramics dealer
for about $100.00. We've never used one before so it was really quite
nervewracking trying to keep temperature up. We put it in the back of the
anagama in one of the top vents and surrounded the hole with fiber.
According to the pyro. we never made it to cone 10, only 9, but the cone
pack right below showed cone 10 all the way down. We moved the pyro to the
opposite side and it only registered 05 so at that point we figured
something wasn't quite accurate. We did notice a nice ash blush, and deep
sappy ash runs on the stick so we thought that might have affected
accuracy????

What we found most useful (and inspired us to keep using it was that even
though the temperature read wasn't accurate) was that the level of heat rise
and drop was quite apparent. By responding to any drop in temperature
immediately, the heat was kept quite even and the opening was one our best
ever.

McCoy, Jack Eugene wrote:

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I'm interested in purchasing a pyrometer for my wood kiln. Any
> suggestions/recommendations?



--
Morgan Britt
morgan@unlimited.net

David Woodin on sun 17 jan 99

You were probably looking at a cone table with a ramp of 108 def F per hour
and in reality your kiln was climbing at somewhere around 36 deg per hour
hence the difference in reading.
David

Rose Bauer on thu 17 jun 99

Greetings!

Although I am a total NEWBIE to firing gas, I recently bought a used Estrin prop

Thanking you in advance for sharing your knowledge.

Baffled in beautiful Jasper National Park!

r

David Coggins on fri 18 jun 99

Rose,

Your message was garbled or cut off - try it again.

Dave

David & Elaine Coggins
dercoggins@one.net.au
http://web.one.net.au/~dercoggins

-----Original Message-----
From: Rose Bauer
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Friday, 18 June 1999 8:30
Subject: pyrometers


----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Greetings!

Although I am a total NEWBIE to firing gas, I recently bought a used Estrin
prop

Thanking you in advance for sharing your knowledge.

Baffled in beautiful Jasper National Park!

r

Rose Bauer on tue 22 jun 99

<00ac01beb93e$a10c4780$184b38c-@dercoggins> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/group/clayart/?start=46785
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Rose,
>
> Your message was garbled or cut off - try it again.
>
> Dave
>
> David & Elaine Coggins
> dercoggins@one.net.au
> http://web.one.net.au/~dercoggins
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rose Bauer
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Date: Friday, 18 June 1999 8:30
> Subject: pyrometers
>

Greetings!

I'm not sure why the ghosts in the machine decided
to edit my first ever posting but at least I know
I'm connected to the many generous people out in
clayworld!! This is such a great forum, and I am
truly grateful to be able to access it. Many thanks!

I've recently bought a propane fired kiln and as
I want to become familiar with the kiln before
I attempt a glaze load, I have only fired cone 06
bisque to date. I've noted that there is a
200 degree differance between the cone and the
pyrometer. The 06 cone (1840 f) goes over and
the pyrometer only reads 1600 degrees f. I've
been told that pyrometers are used as guides only
and I should trust my cones, however, is a
200 degree difference normal? Can I, or should I,
reset my pyrometer to read 200 degrees when the
kiln is cold.

Thanking you in advance,

Rose
(Still in beautiful Jasper National Park)

Steve Dalton on fri 30 jul 99

Hi there everybody,
Well here's the question of the week or so. I have an analog pyrometer,
and ever so often it works. I've replaced the thermocoupler and it worked
for a little bit and then it quit. During my first successful firing it
would
register until it got to 1500 F then go back to 0. Now here's the wierd
thing,
when I put the firing into reduction then it would register(but only at
1250F
and stay there until I took it out).

Should I get a new one and use the old for target practice?

Can I repair it?

Or, is it possesed by the cracked pot demon?

Here's another thought, since all it's reading is millivolts-couldn't a
person go
get a small cheap digital volt-meter and hook that up with the
thermocoupler?
I don't have the money to buy a new digtal pyrometer and I also have Nils
Lou
book-it gives the readings in volts for the various temp readings used for
the
oxygen sensor.
Steve Dalton
sdpotter@gte.net

douglas adams on sun 1 aug 99

Steve, answers to both questions are yes.
Have you replaced the leads going to your pyrometer? A tiny crack in the
lead invisible to the human eye can also cause this type of problem.

If your going to use a digital multi meter, don't get a cheap one. Remember
you get what you pay for! Fluke sells a meter designed for temp. and WW
Granger has them in their catalog.

You could use any digital meter and calibrate it to your leads and
thermocouple. Take Ice water at 32 f. or boiling water at 212 f.( at sea
level) put your thermocouple in it and take a reading on millivolts. As an
example let's say you used the boiling water, and it reads 6 millivolts.
Then for each 6 millivolts the meter reads you multiply it by 212 to get
your temp. The problem here is that the lowest incriment of temp. you can
get is 35.3333.... per millivolt. Buy a fluke and have the conversions
worked out for you.

Hope this helps! Douglas Adams




>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hi there everybody,
>Well here's the question of the week or so. I have an analog pyrometer,
>and ever so often it works. I've replaced the thermocoupler and it worked

>
> Can I repair it?
>

>
>Here's another thought, since all it's reading is millivolts-couldn't a
>person go
>get a small cheap digital volt-meter and hook that up with the
>thermocoupler?

Anne POSSOZ on sun 1 aug 99

------------------
What type of pyrometer is it?
We succeeded to repair type S thermocouple with an old friend.

Anne Possoz
http://slpc5.epfl.ch/=7Epossoz

=3E ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
=3E Hi there everybody,
=3E Well here's the question of the week or so. I have an analog pyrometer,
=3E and ever so often it works. I've replaced the thermocoupler and it =
worked
=3E for a little bit and then it quit. During my first successful firing it
=3E would
=3E register until it got to 1500 F then go back to 0. Now here's the wierd
=3E thing,
=3E when I put the firing into reduction then it would register(but only at
=3E 1250F
=3E and stay there until I took it out).
=3E
=3E Should I get a new one and use the old for target practice?
=3E
=3E Can I repair it?
=3E
=3E Or, is it possesed by the cracked pot demon?

Ben Shelton on mon 2 aug 99

Why not try it out with the multimeter. The thing to watch for would to get
one that is sensitive enough to read the small amount of juice that the
pyrometer puts out. Milivolts is very very little and most cheap meters
won't go that low. The cheapest I've seen was about $40 and I bought it.
Works extremely well. The Brand, Amprobe.
Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Dalton
To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 10:33 AM
Subject: Pyrometers


>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Hi there everybody,
>Well here's the question of the week or so. I have an analog pyrometer,
>and ever so often it works. I've replaced the thermocoupler and it worked
>for a little bit and then it quit. During my first successful firing it
>would
>register until it got to 1500 F then go back to 0. Now here's the wierd
>thing,
>when I put the firing into reduction then it would register(but only at
>1250F
>and stay there until I took it out).
>
>Should I get a new one and use the old for target practice?
>
> Can I repair it?
>
> Or, is it possesed by the cracked pot demon?
>
>Here's another thought, since all it's reading is millivolts-couldn't a
>person go
>get a small cheap digital volt-meter and hook that up with the
>thermocoupler?
>I don't have the money to buy a new digtal pyrometer and I also have Nils
>Lou
>book-it gives the readings in volts for the various temp readings used for
>the
>oxygen sensor.
>Steve Dalton
>sdpotter@gte.net
>

Steve Dalton on tue 3 aug 99

Anne,
My pyrometer is made by Cottone. I purchased it from A.R.T. I think it's
type K.
Steve Dalton

----------
> From: Anne POSSOZ
> To: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU
> Subject: Re: Pyrometers
> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 11:15:56 EDT
>
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>------------------
>What type of pyrometer is it?
>We succeeded to repair type S thermocouple with an old friend.
>
> Anne Possoz
> http://slpc5.epfl.ch/~possoz
>
>> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> Hi there everybody,
>> Well here's the question of the week or so. I have an analog pyrometer,
>> and ever so often it works. I've replaced the thermocoupler and it
worked
>> for a little bit and then it quit. During my first successful firing it
>> would
>> register until it got to 1500 F then go back to 0. Now here's the wierd
>> thing,
>> when I put the firing into reduction then it would register(but only at
>> 1250F
>> and stay there until I took it out).
>>
>> Should I get a new one and use the old for target practice?
>>
>> Can I repair it?
>>
>> Or, is it possesed by the cracked pot demon?

Larry Phillips on tue 3 aug 99

Steve Dalton wrote:

> Here's another thought, since all it's reading is millivolts-couldn't
> a person go get a small cheap digital volt-meter and hook that up with
> the thermocoupler?

Certainly! Watch it carefully for a few firings, preferably with as many
cones visible as you can possibly accomodate. Plot yourself a graph of
the actual response of your sensor.

Of course, it the junsction is bad, or the wires, you'll have the same
problem as with the analog meter. If you can borrow a digital meter,
you'll know.

Even if the sensor or wires are bad, that part of the unit is not very
expensive.

> I don't have the money to buy a new digtal pyrometer and I also have
> Nils Lou book-it gives the readings in volts for the various temp
> readings used for the oxygen sensor.

I suspect the oxy sensor has different voltages with different meanings,
though I am not familiar with either the sensor or Nils' book.

--
I want to die quietly in my sleep, like my grandfather,
not screaming in terror, like his passengers.

http://cr347197-a.surrey1.bc.wave.home.com/larry/

Anne POSSOZ on fri 6 aug 99

------------------
Steve,

I suspect that you thermocouple is broken somewhere or that the soldering
is not really soldered. Try to open it and check it.
I would not trust any output that it gives now. There seems to be =
intermittent
contact.
If you know somebody that could repair it, soldering is quite
simple. I call it autosoldering as you don't add any external solder
but just use the thermocouple itself. Simple job for a technician.

But I am dubious about your comment that it stayed at 1250 F untill you
took it out. You mean that the temperature inside the kiln was like
100F and you red 1250F? Then there is something else. Maybe the
electronic behind is wrong. Why don't you ask to your vendor?
I am in Europe and have no idea of who is A.R.T or Cottone.

Anne Possoz
http://slpc5.epfl.ch/=7Epossoz
=3E ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
=3E My pyrometer is made by Cottone. I purchased it from A.R.T. I think =
it's
=3E type K.
=3E =3E----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E =3EWhat type of pyrometer is it?
=3E =3EWe succeeded to repair type S thermocouple with an old friend.
=3E =3E=3E ----------------------------Original =
message----------------------------
=3E =3E=3E Hi there everybody,
=3E =3E=3E Well here's the question of the week or so. I have an analog =
pyrometer,
=3E =3E=3E and ever so often it works. I've replaced the thermocoupler and =
it
=3E worked
=3E =3E=3E for a little bit and then it quit. During my first successful =
firing it
=3E =3E=3E would
=3E =3E=3E register until it got to 1500 F then go back to 0. Now here's =
the wierd
=3E =3E=3E thing,
=3E =3E=3E when I put the firing into reduction then it would register(but =
only at
=3E =3E=3E 1250F
=3E =3E=3E and stay there until I took it out).
=3E =3E=3E
=3E =3E=3E Should I get a new one and use the old for target practice?
=3E =3E=3E
=3E =3E=3E Can I repair it?
=3E =3E=3E
=3E =3E=3E Or, is it possesed by the cracked pot demon?

Jack and Sue on wed 26 apr 00

------------------
I need to know if a pyrometer can be hooked up to long leads so they can go
outside to my home so that I can read the pyrometer from my bedroom. I want =
to
monitor the kiln without alot of exposure(fumes) and keep from overfiring a =
thin
load. I fire overnight and this feature might keep me in business.
Thank you.
Jack Merlino
Check Us Out=21
http://www.ceramicfountains.com

vince pitelka on thu 27 apr 00

> I need to know if a pyrometer can be hooked up to long leads so they can
go
> outside to my home so that I can read the pyrometer from my bedroom. I
want
> to monitor the kiln without alot of exposure(fumes) and keep from
overfiring a
> thin load. I fire overnight and this feature might keep me in business.

Jack -
It is my understand that the current generated by the thermocouple is so low
that you cannot extend the leads. They are specifically designed to give an
accurate reading with the length supplied or indicated. Among the digital
pyrometers available I bet there is one which will allow you to hook up a
remote reader. You will have to do some research. This is something that
is done all the time in industry, and it is just a matter of getting the
right equipment. Hopefully it will not be prohibitively expensive.
Good luck -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Home - vpitelka@dekalb.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

Fredrick Paget on thu 27 apr 00

You can surely find the answer at
http://www.omega.com/
If not found ask somebody at that firm. They specialize in temperature
measurement among other things. If you are too far from the kiln to run
direct thermocouple wires there are transmitters that will send the signal
much further over plain wires.
Fred
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>------------------
>I need to know if a pyrometer can be hooked up to long leads so they can go
>outside to my home so that I can read the pyrometer from my bedroom. I want =
>to
>monitor the kiln without alot of exposure(fumes) and keep from overfiring a =
>thin
>load. I fire overnight and this feature might keep me in business.
> Thank you.
> Jack Merlino
>Check Us Out=21
>http://www.ceramicfountains.com


>From Fred Paget, Marin County, California, USA

ferenc jakab on thu 27 apr 00

------------------
I need to know if a pyrometer can be hooked up to long leads so they can go
outside to my home so that I can read the pyrometer from my bedroom. I want
to
monitor the kiln without alot of exposure(fumes) and keep from overfiring a
thin
load. I fire overnight and this feature might keep me in business.

Jack,
The longer the cable the greater the resistance and the less accurate your
pyrometer. You can buy a data logger that will send the data to your
computer from your Pyrometer. Check with an electronics hobby store.
Feri.

Gavin Stairs on fri 28 apr 00

I felt sure that someone would have answered this before me, but here goes.

What you need is extension wire. The thermocouple wire is expensive, and
if you extend the leads with copper wire, all you will get is the
difference in temperature between the end of the copper wire and the
thermocouple junction. This will work, provided the temperature at the
copper to thermocouple joint is held at a constant temperature, and the
proper offset is applied. But it is not recommended, because it introduces
uncontrolled errors.

The standard technique is to extend the leads with a special wire which is
formulated to act just like the thermocouple in a limited temperature range
around room temperature. This is called extension wire, and is sold by
thermocouple marketers like Omega. If you have a K thermocouple, you buy
KX extension wire for about $1/ft@24ga., which is maybe 1/4 the cost of
bare thermocouple wire the same gauge, or a tenth that of a larger gauge
like 8 gauge.

The length you can use depends on two things: electrical noise, and lead
resistance versus meter impedance. For a long run of wire, you need to use
a good meter with a large input impedance (like 1MegOhm or greater), and
the longer the run, the bigger wire you need to use. Induced electrical
noise can be minimized by the use of shielded wire.

For the average kiln to barn run, you won't need to be too concerned about
this. Just get some 24ga. extension wire, solder or conect it to the
thermocouple, and connect to your meter at the other end. Note that the
polarity of the thermocouple and the extension wire must be respected. The
extension wire insulation is colour coded (yellow and red for KX). To
check that you got it right, heat up the joint between the thermocouple and
the extension, making sure that BOTH wires are heated equally, and see if
the meter moves. If it does, you've probably got the wires crossed. Do
this by twisting the wires together, so you can see the difference, and
correct it without to much trouble.

Industrially, extensions are usually connected using a compensating plug
and socket. If you don't mind having to resolder when you change a
thermocouple, a solder joint is just as good, or better.

For a general idea of the error in a thermocouple measurement, look at the
Omega website notes.

Gavin

Louis H.. Katz on fri 28 apr 00

nominatejoe@nceca.net

Dearyall.
Pyrometer lead wire is designed so that it will not generate a new thermocouple
where it is attached to the thermocouple ends. If you used copper wire and
attached it to the ends of your thermocouple each of these two connections
would also be come a thermocouple. This would wreak havoc on trying to get an
accurate read as the leads near the kiln would change temperature all the time.

As you run from the kiln to your meter the resistance of the lead wire becomes
a larger percentage of the resistance of the meter and your voltage will drop
accordingly. Where does this become a problem? It depends on the meter and lead
wire.

The other problem for digital systems is that as the lead wire becomes long it
becomes an excellent antenna and will pick up radio waves and other stray
electric fields. The older electronic glass annealing kiln controllers had a
limited thermocouple length because of these problems.

The suggestion to contact Omega is a good one. Also you can get a wicked good
price on thermocouples for pyrometers there.

Thermocouples for Baso valves come in several varieties. The Garden Hardware
Store variety does not hold up as well as the Husky variety. Mark Ward and
appliance repair stores sell them.
Louis


Louis Katz
NEW EMAIL ADDRESS Louis.Katz@mail.tamucc.edu
NCECA Director of Electronic Communication and Webmaster(Ad-Hoc)
Texas A&M-CC Division of Visual and Performing Arts
Visit the NCECA World Ceramics Image Database Online
Looking for a school or a class? Visit NCECA Ceramics Educational Programs
Database Online

David Woodin on fri 28 apr 00

The analog pyrometer is calibrated for a certain resistance or lead length.
The old analog pyrometer for industry was calibrated for 4.5 ohms and that is
why they used extension wire of 16 gauge so they could put the thermocouple
further away from the control room. Digital pyrometers can read much further
away and unless you are trying to read a thermocouple over 1000 feet or more
there is no need for a transducer. The cost of the extension wire then
starts to make a difference as to whether or not to use a transducer.
David

Hank Murrow on fri 28 apr 00

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>> I need to know if a pyrometer can be hooked up to long leads

Reply:

>Jack -
>It is my understand that the current generated by the thermocouple is so low
>that you cannot extend the leads. They are specifically designed to give an
>accurate reading with the length supplied or indicated. Among the digital
>pyrometers available I bet there is one which will allow you to hook up a
>remote reader. You will have to do some research. This is something that
>is done all the time in industry, and it is just a matter of getting the
>right equipment. Hopefully it will not be prohibitively expensive.
>Good luck -
>- Vince

Dear Vince & Jack; The OxyProbe can have extension leads long enough to go
to another building without altering the readings. In addition, you can
read atmosphere too. Hank in Eugene

DeBorah Goletz on fri 28 apr 00

Okay - I'll just throw this one out there to those of you who want to
monitor your pyrometers from the next county - what about using a video
monitor sold for monitoring infants? Granted, I don't know that the cost is,
but theoretically you could aim it at the pyrometer next to the kiln and
watch it from - your t.v.? talk about a cushy firing!
Best,
DeBorah Goletz

Anne POSSOZ on sat 29 apr 00

Gavin Stairs explanation is wonderfull.

And I have to admit that www.omega.com is really a good web site for all that.
For the color code of the wire and extension wires, I like:
http://www.omega.com/techref/thermcolorcodes.html
http://www.cobrawire.com/clrcod.htm

I tried to checked the proper connection by heating the thermocouple
to extension wire but this is not so easy. I'll try once more...

But I have a question. If I understand well, the cables has to be long
to reach a distant room where there is some kind of meter.
What is that kind of meter? Simple and cheap?

Today, my favorite solution is to amplify the thermocouple signal
(type S) very next to the kiln and then transport a much bigger signal.
There are chips available for that today. Since I use this solution,
my signal is much more stable than it ever was.
So I just use a small length of extension wire to extend the thermcouple
signal close to the kiln but where temperature is really low. And then
I use LTK001ACN to amplify the signal by a factor of a 100 ("cold junction"
included) and then feel free to use any length of copper wire.

Anne

--
Anne Possoz Service Informatique Central Tel : (41/21) 693.22.49
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne, 1015 Lausanne (Switzerland)

BeardiePaw on sat 16 mar 02

I need an answer kind of quick, if anyone can help. I need to get a
pyrometer and I don't know much about them. Is a fluke 51 K/J okay for temp
measurements? I don't know if they are the same as the paragon analog
pyrometers, if digital is better than analog. Thanks Sherry Morrow

Jeff Seefeldt on sat 16 mar 02

I'm not sure on the accuracy of the different pyrometers, but you may want
to look at axners they have one they sell (under their own name) that is
only about $40.

jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of BeardiePaw
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 6:23 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: pyrometers

I need an answer kind of quick, if anyone can help. I need to get a
pyrometer and I don't know much about them. Is a fluke 51 K/J okay for temp
measurements? I don't know if they are the same as the paragon analog
pyrometers, if digital is better than analog. Thanks Sherry Morrow

____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.

Craig Martell on sat 16 mar 02

Hello Sherry:

I have a Fluke 51 and it's an excellent tool. It'll read temp in F or C to
the tenth of a degree. Well made and very accurate if you use a good
thermocouple. I paid $180.00 for mine from the Clayart Center in Tacoma,
Wa. www.clayartcenter.com

regards, Craig Martell in Oregn

vince pitelka on sat 16 mar 02

> I need an answer kind of quick, if anyone can help. I need to get a
> pyrometer and I don't know much about them. Is a fluke 51 K/J okay for
temp
> measurements? I don't know if they are the same as the paragon analog
> pyrometers, if digital is better than analog. Thanks Sherry Morrow

Sherry -
Don't bother with the inexpensive analog pyrometers. They are inaccurate,
and they deteriorate rapidly. Get a digital pyrometer. Fluke makes
excellent ones, but be sure to get the appropriate thermocouple. We bought
another brand (can't remember the name) from Marc Ward at Ward Burner
Systems (see any copy of CM or CT) and are very happy with it.
Best wishes -
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Crafts
Tennessee Technological University
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
615/597-5376
Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/

BeardiePaw on sun 17 mar 02

Vince, thanks, and thanks to others who gave me advice. I think I will get
a digital pyrometer, with my 52 year old eyes, big numbers that light up
will defiinitely be better anyway. Sherry

Roger Korn on sun 17 mar 02

I have used the El Cheapo $39 digital multimeters from Harbor Freight (the ones
with a Type K thermocouple input) for several years now. I buy the $3 Omega thin
wire thermocouples and replace or reweld them when they break. Just stick the
thermocouple in a spy hole, get your reading (about 20 seconds), and pull it back
out. These cheap units give the same readings as my much more expensive Fluke, and
have given zero trouble, except for the one which got its case melted from hanging
against the kiln wall. The readings were still fine, but replacing the battery was
tough - the little door was welded to the rest of the case.

I reweld broken thermocouples using a 000 tip on a gas welding outfit to form a
bead about three times the wire diameter. This is probably not the "correct" way to
do it, but the repaired units give the same readings as new units, so I assume its
OK. The junctions of Type K thermocouples are a bit suspect at anything over ~1100
C (~2000F), so compare with another thermocouple if you suspect the reading.

Hope this helps,

Roger

vince pitelka wrote:

> > I need an answer kind of quick, if anyone can help. I need to get a
> > pyrometer and I don't know much about them. Is a fluke 51 K/J okay for
> temp
> > measurements? I don't know if they are the same as the paragon analog
> > pyrometers, if digital is better than analog. Thanks Sherry Morrow
>
> Sherry -
> Don't bother with the inexpensive analog pyrometers. They are inaccurate,
> and they deteriorate rapidly. Get a digital pyrometer. Fluke makes
> excellent ones, but be sure to get the appropriate thermocouple. We bought
> another brand (can't remember the name) from Marc Ward at Ward Burner
> Systems (see any copy of CM or CT) and are very happy with it.
> Best wishes -
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Crafts
> Tennessee Technological University
> 1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166
> Home - vpitelka@dtccom.net
> 615/597-5376
> Work - wpitelka@tntech.edu
> 615/597-6801 ext. 111, fax 615/597-6803
> http://www.craftcenter.tntech.edu/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

--
Roger Korn
McKay Creek Ceramics
In AZ: PO Box 463
4215 Culpepper Ranch Rd
Rimrock, AZ 86335
928-567-5699 <-
In OR: PO Box 436
31330 NW Pacific Ave.
North Plains, OR 97133
503-647-5464

don hunt on sat 2 nov 02

Does anyone have a recommendation of a type K thermocouple supplier?
I'm looking for something better that the pottery supply caliber stuff.
The two that I have appear fine but after 12 cone 10 firings they quit
about 2000f. Is the thermocouple on the oxyprobe high quality or are
you mainly paying for the oxygen sensor?
Thanks
Don Hunt

Snail Scott on sun 3 nov 02

At 04:24 PM 11/3/02 -0800, you wrote:
>...
>you never open the peephole in firing your kiln until your probe
>reads cone nine?
>But why?


It's not good to subject your cones to repeated
blasts of cold air from an open peephole; it
distorts their accuracy, later. A few peeks, to
figure out 'where you're at', OK, but best not
to be a chronic cone-checker if you can tell by
the color (or the pyro reading) that you're not
really close yet.

-Snail

cHuCk on sun 3 nov 02

> Does anyone have a recommendation of a type K thermocouple supplier?

Cleveland Electric Laboratories
1176 Enterprise Parkway
Twinsburg, Ohio
44087
330-425-4747

They are very good and helpful!

Ask for Bill

Potter Wagoner

"Gotta go rake leaves and get some more glaze mixed up!"

hmurrow@EFN.ORG on sun 3 nov 02

Quoting don hunt :

> Does anyone have a recommendation of a type K thermocouple supplier?
> I'm looking for something better that the pottery supply caliber stuff.
> The two that I have appear fine but after 12 cone 10 firings they quit
> about 2000f. Is the thermocouple on the oxyprobe high quality or are
> you mainly paying for the oxygen sensor?
> Thanks
> Don Hunt

Dear Don;

The OxyProbe comes with a type R (Platinum/Rhodium) thermocouple which is
accurate to an amazing degree (unintentional pun). The thermocouple is inside
the tip of the Oxygen sensor, and protected, but the common wire (Platinum)
runs up the side of the tube, so an open ended, one-half inch alumina tube
should enclose the OxyProbe and extend about 1/2" past the end of the sensor.
Protected this way, it should last for years......mine has. I still read the
cones after C/9, but don't crack the peep until then.

Best, Hank



------------------------------------------------------------
Visit http://www.efn.org for all your community networking needs

william schran on sun 3 nov 02

Don - Might want to give the bimetal K thermocouple from Skutt or the
one from L&L a try. Though we only fire to cone 6, we are doing a few
crystalline firings each week and the thermocouple we have is holding
up.
Bill

Ned Ludd on sun 3 nov 02

>
>Protected this way, it should last for
>years......mine has. I still read the cones after C/9, but don't
>crack the peep until then.

Hello Hank

I'm puzzled at "don't crack the peep until then." Are you saying that
you never open the peephole in firing your kiln until your probe
reads cone nine?
But why?

best wishes,


Ned
in Butte County, CA, where Chico's annual Open Studios just wrapped
its first of two weekends.

Jennifer F Boyer on sun 3 nov 02

I've used the Fluke Digital Pyrometer for at least 4 years. The
thermocouples last 2-3 years for me firing every 3 weeks or so
to cone 10. I love the 2 thermocouple version that allows me to
monitor top to bottom temps...They do fine even at the high end
of my firing. Axner.com has them, as well as cheaper one that
has one odd feature: it reads in only F. up to 1999 degrees,
and then switches to C.
Take Care
Jennifer

don hunt wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation of a type K thermocouple supplier?
> I'm looking for something better that the pottery supply caliber stuff.
> The two that I have appear fine but after 12 cone 10 firings they quit
> about 2000f. Is the thermocouple on the oxyprobe high quality or are
> you mainly paying for the oxygen sensor?
> Thanks
> Don Hunt
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

--
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Jennifer Boyer mailto:jboyer@adelphia.net
Thistle Hill Pottery Montpelier VT USA
http://www.thistlehillpottery.com/

Never pass on an email warning without checking out these sites
for web hoaxes and junk:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/
http://snopes.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Logan Oplinger on mon 4 nov 02

A search with Google on thermocouples, protection tubes and pyrometers
yealded the following:

OMEGA ENGINEERING--
has an extensive selection of high quality thermocouple assemblies,
protection tubes, TC wire, etc. and hand held digital meters. The least
expensive hand helds (without thermpcouples) are for type K only, starting
at $75. Go to:

http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/sectionSC.asp?book=temperature§ion=l

and click on the Selection Guide for a table of features.
This is in Adobe Acrobat pdf format.

They also offer a free CD or printed catalog of their products.

(Also, check out the Dilbert cartoons.)

NANMAC CORPORATION--
Has several types of thermocouples, protection tubes rated for high
temperature (2500+ deg. F.)
http://www.nanmac.com

FLUKE CORPORATION--
Web site describes all of their hand held digital meters. They do not
appear to have a selection of heavy duty thermocouples or protection tubes.
http://www.fluke.com/us.asp

INDUSTRIAL PYROMETER & SUPPLY CO.--
Has a good selection of various industrial duty thermocouples, insulators,
protection tubes, and complete assemblies. No pyrometers (readout meters)
are listed.
http://www.ipscustom.com/

DAVIS INOTEK INSTRUMENTS--
Lists a good selection of thermocouple supplies for industrial and general
use, and pyrometers.
http://www.inotek.com/

NEWPORT ELECTRONICS, INC.--
Lists a good selection of pyrometers and industrial thermocouple supplies.
http://www.newportus.com/

THERMO ELECTRIC CO., INC.--
Lists a comprehensive selection of industrial thermocouple assemblies.
http://www.thermo-electric-direct.com/

Several pottery/ceramics web sites also came up including the following

AXNER--
http://axner.com/

BAILEY POTTERY--
http://www.baileypottery.com/kilns/pyrometers.htm

CLAYARTCENTER.COM--
http://www.clayartcenter.com/kilnaccess_pyro.htm

L & L KILNS--
http://www.hotkilns.com/

WARD BURNER SYSTEMS--
http://www.wardburner.com/pyrometers.cfm


Logan Oplinger
Another Pacific Island
Latitude: 13.5 Longitude: -144.7

John Baymore on mon 4 nov 02

Does anyone have a recommendation of a type K thermocouple supplier?
I'm looking for something better that the pottery supply caliber stuff.
The two that I have appear fine but after 12 cone 10 firings they quit
about 2000f. Is the thermocouple on the oxyprobe high quality or are
you mainly paying for the oxygen sensor?

Don,

Try Omega Engineering..... PO Box 4047 Stamford, CT 06907-0047 =

800-826-6342. In the UK they are at 0455-28-5520. In Germany at 070-56
-3017. Canada at PO Box 244 Mississauga, Ontario L4T9Z9. They are an
industrial firm specializing in measurment equipment of various
sorts.....particularly temperature measurement. Great stuff and good
prices. You'll never buy from a middle man like a "ceramic supply" again=

.

Type K goes pretty non-linear in the temps typically associated with cone=

10. Search the archives for a post I did a long time ago that gave a LOT=

of info on pyrometers. It had a lot of stuff about why type K is not so
good for high fire work.

The oxyprobe contains a platinum based thermocouple.....type R........muc=
h
more accurate for cone 10 stuff. But quite expensive when compared to th=
e
type K. That's why most "potter type" kilns come with the type K systems=
. =

Most potters don't want to pay the higher costs associated with the more
accurate system.


Best,

..............................john

John Baymore
River Bend Pottery
22 Riverbend Way
Wilton, NH 03086 USA

603-654-2752 (s)
800-900-1110 (s)

JohnBaymore.com

JBaymore@compuserve.com

hmurrow@EFN.ORG on mon 4 nov 02

Quoting Ned Ludd :

Hello Hank
>
> I'm puzzled at "don't crack the peep until then." Are you saying that
> you never open the peephole in firing your kiln until your probe
> reads cone nine?
> But why?

Dear Ned;

The OxyProbe and the condition of the flame at the flue give me all the
information I need to fire any atmosphere without opening the peep. I just open
to confirm that the C/10 is fallken to the degree I want for the firing.

See the pics of my kiln at www.murrow.biz/hank , go to the kiln and tools page.
Orf check out the article ont the must reads page of the CM site.

Cheers, Hank

------------------------------------------------------------
Visit http://www.efn.org for all your community networking needs

Nick Molatore on tue 5 nov 02

I have used my current thermocouple every week or two for for about a =
year, probably about 30 firings.
-Nick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How many firings? Some of them are no good after 12.

Nick Molatore wrote:

> have used the type K thermocouple from Axner.com with weekly firings =
to C10 and it is still going strong. I think it is about $20. I also =
got their inexpensive digital pyrometer (I think about $50) and it works =
great. The nice thing about a digital meter is that you can tell =
immediately if the temperature is increasing or not: adjust the damper =
and see the affect on temperture rise instantly.
>
> =
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots@pclink.com.

Nick Molatore on tue 5 nov 02

CLAYART Digest - 3 Nov 2002 to 4 Nov 2002 (#2002-305)I have used the =
type K thermocouple from Axner.com with weekly firings to C10 and it is =
still going strong. I think it is about $20. I also got their =
inexpensive digital pyrometer (I think about $50) and it works great. =
The nice thing about a digital meter is that you can tell immediately if =
the temperature is increasing or not: adjust the damper and see the =
affect on temperture rise instantly.

don hunt on tue 5 nov 02

Thanks for the recommendations! Apparently what happened is both my
probes when bad. At first one of the probes wouldn't read above 2000, I
was confused because the cones read even top to bottom, so I just fired
by the probe that reflected what the cones said. I assumed the probes
were ok since they had less than 12 firings and visually were fine. The
second probe followed the first within 3 firings. They seem perfect to
1600, gain error to 2000 and not read at all above 2000. The first
time I ran into it I thought my kiln had stalled. I tweeked it for rise
for a couple hours. When I finally looked at the cones, they were ALL
DOWN. I say check'em early and check'em often, better a little off then
finding them all down.
I don't know if this is a bad batch or just cheap probes, but I think an
upgrade is in order.

Don Hunt

don hunt on tue 5 nov 02

How many firings? Some of them are no good after 12.

Nick Molatore wrote:

> CLAYART Digest - 3 Nov 2002 to 4 Nov 2002 (#2002-305)I have used the type K thermocouple from Axner.com with weekly firings to C10 and it is still going strong. I think it is about $20. I also got their inexpensive digital pyrometer (I think about $50) and it works great. The nice thing about a digital meter is that you can tell immediately if the temperature is increasing or not: adjust the damper and see the affect on temperture rise instantly.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

Carole Fox on tue 28 jan 03

Since I know little about pyrometers, I did want to check and make sure I'm
headed in the right direction for my situation. I would like a pyrometer
that would be suitable for both my electric kiln and my fiber bonnet raku
kiln. I'm working on getting a gas kiln as well, and wouldn't it just be
sweet if the same pyrometer would work for all the kilns! But...Is it a bad
idea to move the pyrometer from one kiln to another?

Also, I am assuming,in the electric kiln I can just stick the thermocouple
in a peephole, no? Or must I drill out the bricks through those little holes
in the kiln casing? And then...can I move the thermocouple from hole to
hole? In my homemade fiber raku bonnet, where would the thermocouple go?

So... the archives led me to the conclusion that the Fluke 51 would be
ideal. Baileys has them for $163!! That is a lot cheaper than other places
that I checked.

Carole Fox -sick child home from school today...time for a cuddle by
the fire.

Silver Fox Pottery
Elkton, MD
thesilverfox@dol.net

Carole Fox on wed 29 jan 03

Since I know little about pyrometers, I did want to check and make sure I'm
headed in the right direction for my situation. I would like a pyrometer
that would be suitable for both my electric kiln and my fiber bonnet raku
kiln. I'm working on getting a gas kiln as well, and wouldn't it just be
sweet if the same pyrometer would work for all the kilns! But...Is it a bad
idea to move the pyrometer from one kiln to another?

Also, I am assuming,in the electric kiln I can just stick the thermocouple
in a peephole, no? Or must I drill out the bricks through those little holes
in the kiln casing? And then...can I move the thermocouple from hole to
hole? In my homemade fiber raku bonnet, where would the thermocouple go?

So... the archives led me to the conclusion that the Fluke 51 would be
ideal. Baileys has them for $163!! That is a lot cheaper than other places
that I checked.

Carole Fox -sick child home from school today...time for a cuddle by
the fire.

Silver Fox Pottery
Elkton, MD
thesilverfox@dol.net


Carole Fox
Elkton, MD
thesilverfox@dol.net

dalecochoy on thu 30 jan 03

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carole Fox"
Subject: Pyrometers
I'm working on getting a gas kiln as well, and wouldn't it just be
> sweet if the same pyrometer would work for all the kilns! > So... the
archives led me to the conclusion that the Fluke 51 would be
> ideal. Baileys has them for $163!! That is a lot cheaper than other places
> that I checked.
>
> Carole

Carole,
I too have been thinking of getting a Fluke 52 for two probes, but, find the
total cost a bit rediculous. There HAS TO BE a cheaper purchase place.
Perhaps there will be some deals at NCECA but I can't go.
Axner price on them is mighty steep after you get the two probes. The #52 is
$216 and the #52 is $265!!! Plus probes. I guess I need to check Bailys
price on the #52.
Any better deals out there folks?
Regards,
Dale

Robert Izzi on thu 30 jan 03

Try ebay some time ago there were, I think 3 flukes for sale, I got a 51 for
$50.00 ,a
52 went for $100.00 and a 52 with the computer set up went for a little more
than
$100.00 also. These were all new and mine works great . Haven't found any
such deals lately but you never know when something migh show up for bid.

Guillemot cove pottery

Mike on thu 30 jan 03

Carole,

Omega.com has some low cost digital thermometers with single and dual input
type K thermocouple inputs. They cost $65 and $75. Model numbers HH11 and
HH12.

following is link.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=HH11_HH12&Nav=teml04


Fluke is certainly a top of the line instrument, but there are other
options. Has anyone used one of these?

Mike



I'm working on getting a gas kiln as well, and wouldn't it just be
> sweet if the same pyrometer would work for all the kilns! > So... the
archives led me to the conclusion that the Fluke 51 would be
> ideal. Baileys has them for $163!! That is a lot cheaper than other places
> that I checked.
>
> Carole

Charles Moore on thu 30 jan 03

Carole & Dale & any other interested party,

I have a friend who works in a ceramic supply shop (nameless) where he
(nameless) uses a (one) Cress pyrometer which he inserts into peepholes to
check the temperature throughout the kiln. After he checks he reinserts the
peephole plug.

I'm wondering--is this a good idea? Would you get an accurate reading? Or
close?

By the way, Bailey's has a digital Cress pyrometer for $140.

Anybody know the answer to my question?

Charles Moore
Sacramento



----- Original Message -----
From: "dalecochoy"
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: Pyrometers


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carole Fox"
> Subject: Pyrometers
> I'm working on getting a gas kiln as well, and wouldn't it just be
> > sweet if the same pyrometer would work for all the kilns! > So... the
> archives led me to the conclusion that the Fluke 51 would be
> > ideal. Baileys has them for $163!! That is a lot cheaper than other
places
> > that I checked.
> >
> > Carole
>
> Carole,
> I too have been thinking of getting a Fluke 52 for two probes, but, find
the
> total cost a bit rediculous. There HAS TO BE a cheaper purchase place.
> Perhaps there will be some deals at NCECA but I can't go.
> Axner price on them is mighty steep after you get the two probes. The #52
is
> $216 and the #52 is $265!!! Plus probes. I guess I need to check Bailys
> price on the #52.
> Any better deals out there folks?
> Regards,
> Dale
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

Carole Fox on fri 31 jan 03

Thanks, everybody for the info on pyrometers. I think I will try to drill
the fire brick out using Mel's directions. Wish me luck because- honestly,
the only time I've ever used a drill was when it had a mixer on the other
end!

Now, my L and L kiln has a 1/2" hole in the jacket on each of its three
rings. I'm assuming these are all for pyrometer readings. And I am guessing
that I should drill them all so that I can take the reading at all levels.
Would I then need to plug the other holes with a homemade ceramic plug? Some
folks suggested that I get the double probe. I was under the impression that
you could only use single probe pyrometers with electric kilns. When I was
perusing the Bailey site, I read the following:
"Because of electrical fields generated by the elements, a double probe
can not be used with electric kilns."
Do you know something the folks at Bailey don't know?

Thank you all so much for your help!
Carole Fox
Elkton, MD
thesilverfox@dol.net

Paul Vernier on fri 31 jan 03

Fluke 52 for $209 at this site

http://www.web-tronics.com/fluk52dualin.html

Paul



NEVER ARGUE WITH AN IDIOT; THEY
JUST DRAG YOU DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL,
AND THEN BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE

dalecochoy on fri 31 jan 03

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike"
Subject: Re: Pyrometers


> Carole,
>
> Omega.com has some low cost digital thermometers with single and dual
input
> type K thermocouple inputs. They cost $65 and $75. Model numbers HH11 and
> HH12.
>
> following is link.
>
> http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=HH11_HH12&Nav=teml04
>
>
> Fluke is certainly a top of the line instrument, but there are other
> options. Has anyone used one of these?
>
> Mike

Good price, but
This one has the same fault as a couple others I checked. Max range is 2,000
degrees F. Not quite good enough for high firing.
Also, some only read degrees C ( I don't want to look at a chart), and
another I saw ( can't remember which now) reads F up to 2,000 then you have
to convert to C after that.
The Fluke seems to be the only one I've seen that is ACCURATE much higher
and reads F.
But, I'm certainly open to suggestions before I spend money.
I did check eBay a couple times and saw nothing.
Regards,
Dale
Regards,
Dale

william schran on fri 31 jan 03

Mike suggested low cost HH11 or HH12 Omega pyrometers as an option to
Carole. Only problem is the device is only rated to 2000=B0F and uses a
small bead type thermocouple. Couple of years ago I bought a low cost
pyrometer ( I think it was around $60 or $80) from Axner that is
basically a volt meter with a label pasted over it. Works fine, until
it gets above 2000=B0F, then I really can't count on an accurate
reading. Since I was working with crystalline glazes an accurate
reading was needed. Bought A lower cost Fluke 51 last year and I'm
very happy with it. Have it paired with a type K bi-metal
thermocouple.
Bill

karen gringhuis on fri 31 jan 03

Carole -

>But...Is it a bad idea to move the pyrometer from one
kiln to another?<

Not that I know of but I've never had the luxury of
more than one kiln. I can't see why not.

>Also, I am assuming,in the electric kiln I can just
stick the thermocouple in a peephole, no? Or must I
drill out the bricks through those little holes
in the kiln casing?<

Drill out one of the little holes. It's not that big a
deal. See below.

>And then...can I move the thermocouple from hole to
hole?<

NO YOU CANNOT DO THIS!! Once the temp. starts up, you
leave the probe in place. If you want, you can insert
two probes at diff. locations.

I did this at first, then abandoned the second probe.
One is enough for me since you are really only using
the probe to chart SPEED of temp rise or fall and NOT
for exact temp. **** For "exact" temp. a pyrometer
does NOT replace cones - got that?? - i.e. don't give
up a peep hole for a pyrometer. ****

Be very clear about this. To judge if one part of the
kiln is cooler or hotter than another, and to tell
when I have reached temperature, I still rely on the
CONES. (Experience with a pyro in YOUR kilns will
show you how close its readings are to cones.)

>In my homemade fiber raku bonnet, where would the
thermocouple go?<

I have no clue.

>So... the archives led me to the conclusion that the
Fluke 51 would be ideal. Baileys has them for $163!!
That is a lot cheaper than other places
that I checked.<

I got mine from Bailey and wouldn't fire without it,
period. I also get replacement probes from them -
which yes, you will need to do from time to time
because the metal tip oxidizes. I also suggest buying
the porcelain sleeve to cover the metal end of the
probe inside the kiln. This sleeve may not fit thru
the small hole in kiln wall so just get it cut short
and hang it over the end of the probe inside the kiln.



As for the price of a pyrometer, it's an investment in
the quality of my work which I have never regretted.
You have to be clear on why you want one. Controlling
the speed in firing (BOTH glaze and BISQUE) and
cooling is critical to me and I can't control what I
can't monitor. I have no intention of "eyeballing"
anything! [Aside - are you using protective sun
glasses to look into a kiln? If not, start!]

Remember that the pyrometer computer itself you will
have a LONG time - just changing the batteries. Look
at its cost on a cost-per-firing basis - and with
regard to how it may improve your final results. Your
TIME is still your most expensive ingredient.

If you keep decent kiln logs of time and temp. off the
pyrom., the logs will also alert you when your
elements or switches are dying as the firing time
stretches out. You will have a profile of an average
firing and can see deviations so you can ask "why?"

If a pyrometer would help you, go for it. The
nonsensical notion that potters have to do everything
"by the seat of our pants" is long gone. We and our
work are entitled to as much higher tech equipment as
we can possibly use and afford. (A digital scale is
next on my list.)

If I can answer further qns. just ask.

=====
Karen Gringhuis
KG Pottery
Box 607 Alfred NY 14802

__________________________________________________
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dalecochoy on sat 1 feb 03

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carole Fox"
Subject: Re: pyrometers
Some
> folks suggested that I get the double probe. I was under the impression
that
> you could only use single probe pyrometers with electric kilns. When I was
> perusing the Bailey site, I read the following:
> "Because of electrical fields generated by the elements, a double
probe
> can not be used with electric kilns."
> Do you know something the folks at Bailey don't know?
> Carole Fox

Carole,
I read that also, although I'm not sure about that, perhaps someone could ad
some info to that if you've actually had this problem.
But, If you read my last note. For $6 or $13 more ( depending on Bailey or
Axner prices) you can get TWO single Fluke #51's W/ thermo probes. I'm
leaning that way. I sure can't see that difference in price for the #52. Can
anyone find fault in this logic?
Regards,
Dale Cochoy

karen gringhuis on mon 3 feb 03

Carole -

>Thanks, everybody for the info on pyrometers.<

You're welcome.

>my L and L kiln has a 1/2" hole in the jacket on each
of its three rings. I'm assuming these are all for
pyrometer readings. And I am guessing
that I should drill them all so that I can take the
reading at all levels.<

Drill them all only if you MUST. Once you know your
kiln (I have the L & L J230 (?) ) which you can learn
by reading cones, you know which tier is hottest and
which lags behind. In my kiln, this seldom,if ever,
changes.

As I said in my previous post, I read only the middle
of the kiln and use the pyro reading ONLY to track
RATE of climb or drop. But in the beginning, I did
read two tiers. Once I got over the thrill of
pyrometer numbers, I don't need to know what the
difference in temp between tiers is. I even them up
(when I get lucky) using the cones NOT the pyro.

>Would I then need to plug the other holes with a
homemade ceramic plug?<

Use ceramic fiber.

>Some folks suggested that I get the double probe. I
was under the impression that you could only use
single probe pyrometers with electric kilns. When I
was perusing the Bailey site, I read the following:
"Because of electrical fields generated by the
elements, a double probe can not be used with electric
kilns."
Do you know something the folks at Bailey don't know?<

HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT WE KNOW MORE THAN BAILEY - if you
ever are in doubt, phone Bailey and ask for a tech
support person - they WILL help you. They are good
people.

I jumped in with both feet, bought two probes, used
them at one time and no, it didn't work. I never
found out why but here's what DOES WORK. If you drill
out two of the small holes and if you buy two
probes........leave both probes in the kiln. They
plug into the pryo (handheld computer) with little
gold tabs i.e. easy in and out.

BUY A PRYO FOR A SINGLE PROBE. Turn the pyro off, plug
in Probe #1, turn it on, read the temp and write it
down. Turn the pryo off (it may not actually be
necessary to turn it off when unjacking the probes -
ASK Bailey), UNplug Probe #1 and plug in Probe #2.
Turn it on, read the temp, write it down. Etc.
Worked for me.

As you can see, you really don't need a pyro computer
with two input places for probes, just 2 actual probes
and a single input on the pyro.

ASK BAILEY - there really is a Jim Bailey who will get
you an answer.



=====
Karen Gringhuis
KG Pottery
Box 607 Alfred NY 14802

__________________________________________________
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will hershey on thu 31 jul 03

Bob,
I just bought one 2 weeks ago and asked myself the same question.
Decided to go with the digital because it was easier to read. Used it
for the first time last weekend and was very happy with it. Made my
firing go a lot better as well!

Will Hershey

On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 11:42 AM, Bobbruch1@AOL.COM wrote:

> I was looking at pyrometers and noticed that the digital version was
> double
> the price of the non digital variety. Any opinion as to whether it is
> worth
> the extra $$$$ for the digital?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob Bruch
>
> _______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>

Bobbruch1@AOL.COM on thu 31 jul 03

I was looking at pyrometers and noticed that the digital version was double
the price of the non digital variety. Any opinion as to whether it is worth
the extra $$$$ for the digital?

Thanks,

Bob Bruch

Earl Brunner on fri 1 aug 03

My Geil Kiln came with a digital pyrometer, it was the first time I had
ever used one. I will NEVER go back. The dial on the non digital isn't
precise enough. I learned things on my first firing about firing
adjustments for things like reduction that I never knew in 20 years of
firing with the non digital.

I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that a 1/4 inch of
movement on the damper could mean the difference between steady climb
and DROP in temperature. With the non digital, you could lose 50
degrees or more before you could even tell. On the digital it's almost
instantaneous. I used to be heavy handed with my adjustments, not any
more.

On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 11:42 AM, Bobbruch1@AOL.COM wrote:

> I was looking at pyrometers and noticed that the digital version was
> double
> the price of the non digital variety. Any opinion as to whether it is
> worth
> the extra $$$$ for the digital?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob Bruch
>

LindaBlossom on fri 1 aug 03

Bob, I got mine from a guy on ebay for $65 plus shipping. It is great.
His email is stanpawlak@sympatico.ca You could see if he sells them off
ebay - I would think so. He was very helpful. The thermocouple is 16" long
and is very easy to shorten. I used a cord from an extension cord for the
power supply and a thermostat wire (4 cents a foot) for the thermocouple
wire.

Linda
Ithaca, NY


> I was looking at pyrometers and noticed that the digital version was
double
> the price of the non digital variety. Any opinion as to whether it is
worth
> the extra $$$$ for the digital?
>

steve harrison on sat 2 aug 03

Hi Bob,
Go digital, there are no moving parts. the older galvanometer style
mechanical ones are full of delicate moving parts, a nightmare to keep
accurate. I'm amazed that they are cheaper.
If money is a problem go with a radio shack/tandy multimeter ($25). you
can read the millivolts DC straight off the thermocouple. there are
published charts of mv to temp conversions easily available, so one
meter can read from any thermocouple.
I can give you more details if you think you are interested.
regards
Steve Harrison

> I was looking at pyrometers and noticed that the digital version was
> double
> the price of the non digital variety. Any opinion as to whether it is
> worth
> the extra $$$$ for the digital?
>

Karen Hinz on tue 3 feb 04

Question from a newbie:

I definitely think a pyrometer is needed. Any suggestions on types that
are reliable, work well and are affordable?

There's currently an Analog one by Olympic Kilns on ebay for $80. Good
buy? Bad buy?

Any info appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
Karen in Indiana

wayneinkeywest on tue 3 feb 04

Karen:
My supplier sells analog pyrometers for $75.
Think twice.
Wayne Seidl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Hinz"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Pyrometers


> Question from a newbie:
>
> I definitely think a pyrometer is needed. Any suggestions on
types that
> are reliable, work well and are affordable?
>
> There's currently an Analog one by Olympic Kilns on ebay for $80.
Good
> buy? Bad buy?

Roly Beevor on wed 4 feb 04

Karen Hinz

> > Question from a newbie:
> >
> > I definitely think a pyrometer is needed. Any suggestions on types that
> > are reliable, work well and are affordable?

I missed the original question, so I don't know how relevant this is, but
I'm using an Omega Datalogger digital thermometer HH306. (I don't have any
relationship with the company, and I havn't used any other manufacturers
product).

Bearing in mind the caveats about the accuracy of especially a K type
thermocouple (which comes with the kit) I find this a most useful tool. You
can plug it into a PC and get a chart of the recorded temperature through
the whole firing, and see exactly what effect it has when you fiddle around
with the burner etc.. It has two inputs so you can record the temperature at
two different places.

My feeling is that by the time I've learnt enough to fire the kiln without
the datalogger it will have easily repaid the extra money, if only in time
saved not having to chart temperature.

I had to wait a while for it to be shipped from the States, and it would be
a tad cheaper there.

Cheers
Roly

ilene richardson on wed 2 mar 05

I'm looking at pyrometers on Axner's website, (thank you Jan) and have a =
question as I've not seen one used. If I added this to my kiln which is =
electric...could I stick the thermocoupler in one of the peep holes? =
How would I connect this to my kiln?

It seems like a good investment. I purchased my Paragon kiln which is in =
excellent shape from an elderly woman nearby who was retiring from =
ceramics. For $200 I got octagon or hexagon, can't recall kiln that is =
about four feet tall, with the three dials for temperature that register =
low/medium/high. I know the original owner used orton cones for temp =
info. =20

I've not used this kiln yet and while I sit with my foot elevated for =
the last three weeks due to ankle surgery... there is lots to think =
about, lots to read and plan for when I am able to put weight on my foot =
again... at the 8 week mark. I'm hoping to eventually use my 'aircast' =
to walk in when the time comes, but for now, the ankle is too swollen to =
get in the cast. Immobilization is soooooo much fun. Falling on =
crutches is a &%*$ drag and hurts and it appears I'm not very good on =
them. I"ve got a neat "knee wheelchair" that allows me to get around, =
looks like a stroller, thank goodness it has a handbrake as it gets =
going too fast and doesn't turn on its own.

I'm sure Vince will agree with me.
Oh, Vince, look into the "roll-a-bout" online. YOu can rent one for $25 =
per week, well worth it when the swelling goes down and you don't have =
to elevate your foot anymore. http://www.roll-a-bout.com/

Foot up, but I am down,
Ilene

Arnold Howard on wed 2 mar 05

Ilene, you can place the thermocouple into a peephole provided you use a
drilled peephole plug. You will also need to find out how far the
thermocouple must extent into the firing chamber.

There is no electrical connection needed between the kiln and the
thermocouple since you are not using a digital controller.

Sincerely,

Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
arnoldhoward@att.net / www.paragonweb.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "ilene richardson"
I'm looking at pyrometers on Axner's website, (thank you Jan) and have a
question as I've not seen one used. If I added this to my kiln which is
electric...could I stick the thermocoupler in one of the peep holes? How
would I connect this to my kiln?

mel jacobson on mon 12 oct 09

i have had the same pyrometer on my gas kiln
for 30 years.
i don't calibrate, i re/mark.

i set cones at the peep like/ 08, 5, 9, 10, 11.
(make a clay cup and let them just melt into the cup.)

when each of these cones drops, i mark a colored line
on my pyrometer with a sharpie.\

never look at the temp, look at the colored line.
`oh, the kiln is at cone 5, nice`.

pyrometers are never accurate, but they are
consistent.
use a sharpie, change your life.
mel
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
new book: http://www.21stcenturykilns.com

John Post on mon 12 oct 09

I calibrate my computer controlled kilns the same way. On one kiln,
cone 6 is 2200F. On another one it's 2180F. One of these pyrometers
is lying. I don't lose any sleep over it.

You have to push wood through one of my saws on an angle to get a
straight cut. If you just watch the blade and the line you are
cutting, you are fine. If you try to set the wood square to the table
and blade and push it straight through you get a crooked cut.
Sometimes you have to work with what the tools give you.

John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan

:: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
:: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org

> pyrometers are never accurate, but they are
> consistent.
> use a sharpie, change your life.
> mel

mel jacobson on wed 21 dec 11

Mel,

I would not use a K-type thermocouple, unless it is made with with very thi=
ck wires, above cone 4 (Konuzo 4 in Esperanto), but a S or R.(Ask David Fin=
kelnberg)

For the readout, check with Omega :
http://www.omega.com/

Gis,

Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
from: minnetonka, mn
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html

David Finkelnburg on sat 24 dec 11

My personal experience with type K thermocouples has been very good, even
in reduction firing to cone 10, but I am firing with natural gas, not wood
or oil. Also, my thermocouples have come from Marc Ward, Ward Burner
Systems and are 1/8-inch diameter, which is thick enough that they last
much longer. I have not seen significant drift in the readout during the
last 12 years. I do have the thermocouple connected to an industrial
digital indicator (Doric) which I have had calibrated by an experienced
instrument technician. However, having said all this I would still never
consider firing crystal glazes with such a thermocouple. The accuracy of a
type S or better is what one needs for that. Also, I always glaze fire with
multiple cone packs. I have a complete backup thermocouple assembly but I
use the cone packs to check the kiln top to bottom and front to back and
side to side. It assures me that the ware in the kiln is fired to the same
end point.

The biggest problem I have seen with thermocouples is actually from the
readout. Cheap thermocouple indicators, the dial type, do not seem to be
very durable. At least, that's what I observed early on in clay and so I
have never used one. As Edouard mentions, Omega has digital indicators.
They also have virtually everything related to temperature measurement.

Happy Holidays!
Dave Finkelnburg

-----------------------------
Edouard wrote:
Mel ,
I would not use a K-type thermocouple, unless it is made with with very
thick wires, above cone 4 (Konuzo 4 in Esperanto), but a S or R.(Ask David
Finkelnberg)

For the readout, check with Omega :
http://www.omega.com/

Gis,

Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto

Steve Mills on sun 25 dec 11

We used to get the Multi-Type Digital Meters we sold at Bath Potters' Suppl=
i=3D
es from Omega, until, in my capacity as Source Detective :-) I found out wh=
o=3D
made them in Taiwan.=3D20
They are more correctly described as portable Data Loggers, but they work v=
e=3D
ry well indeed as plain Pyrometers, have a rubber protective over-case, are=
s=3D
elf adjusting, and use a PP3 battery which lasts a long time. Thermocouple =
t=3D
ype selection is very simple, and they connect using a micro-plug which, if=
y=3D
ou use the one matching the Thermocouple, gives very accurate readings.

Steve M


Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod

On 25 Dec 2011, at 01:42, David Finkelnburg wrote:

> My personal experience with type K thermocouples has been very good, even
> in reduction firing to cone 10, but I am firing with natural gas, not woo=
d=3D

> or oil. Also, my thermocouples have come from Marc Ward, Ward Burner
> Systems and are 1/8-inch diameter, which is thick enough that they last
> much longer. I have not seen significant drift in the readout during the
> last 12 years. I do have the thermocouple connected to an industrial
> digital indicator (Doric) which I have had calibrated by an experienced
> instrument technician. However, having said all this I would still never
> consider firing crystal glazes with such a thermocouple. The accuracy of =
a=3D

> type S or better is what one needs for that. Also, I always glaze fire wi=
t=3D
h
> multiple cone packs. I have a complete backup thermocouple assembly but I
> use the cone packs to check the kiln top to bottom and front to back and
> side to side. It assures me that the ware in the kiln is fired to the sam=
e=3D

> end point.
>=3D20
> The biggest problem I have seen with thermocouples is actually from the
> readout. Cheap thermocouple indicators, the dial type, do not seem to be
> very durable. At least, that's what I observed early on in clay and so I
> have never used one. As Edouard mentions, Omega has digital indicators.
> They also have virtually everything related to temperature measurement.
>=3D20
> Happy Holidays!
> Dave Finkelnburg
>=3D20
> ------------------------------
> Edouard wrote:
> Mel ,
> I would not use a K-type thermocouple, unless it is made with with very
> thick wires, above cone 4 (Konuzo 4 in Esperanto), but a S or R.(Ask Davi=
d=3D

> Finkelnberg)
>=3D20
> For the readout, check with Omega :
> http://www.omega.com/
>=3D20
> Gis,
>=3D20
> Edouard Bastarache
> Spertesperantisto

Edouard Bastarache on sun 25 dec 11

Here is what I found after Googling "Data Loggers Omega"

http://www.omega.ca/shop/dsc.html

Gis,

Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto

Sorel-Tracy
Quebec

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://edouardbastaracheblogs2.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/edouard.bastarache







----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Mills"
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: pyrometers


We used to get the Multi-Type Digital Meters we sold at Bath Potters'
Supplies from Omega, until, in my capacity as Source Detective :-) I found
out who made them in Taiwan.
They are more correctly described as portable Data Loggers, but they work
very well indeed as plain Pyrometers, have a rubber protective over-case,
are self adjusting, and use a PP3 battery which lasts a long time.
Thermocouple type selection is very simple, and they connect using a
micro-plug which, if you use the one matching the Thermocouple, gives very
accurate readings.

Steve M


Steve Mills
Bath
UK
Sent from my iPod

On 25 Dec 2011, at 01:42, David Finkelnburg wrote:

> My personal experience with type K thermocouples has been very good, even
> in reduction firing to cone 10, but I am firing with natural gas, not woo=
d
> or oil. Also, my thermocouples have come from Marc Ward, Ward Burner
> Systems and are 1/8-inch diameter, which is thick enough that they last
> much longer. I have not seen significant drift in the readout during the
> last 12 years. I do have the thermocouple connected to an industrial
> digital indicator (Doric) which I have had calibrated by an experienced
> instrument technician. However, having said all this I would still never
> consider firing crystal glazes with such a thermocouple. The accuracy of =
a
> type S or better is what one needs for that. Also, I always glaze fire
> with
> multiple cone packs. I have a complete backup thermocouple assembly but I
> use the cone packs to check the kiln top to bottom and front to back and
> side to side. It assures me that the ware in the kiln is fired to the sam=
e
> end point.
>
> The biggest problem I have seen with thermocouples is actually from the
> readout. Cheap thermocouple indicators, the dial type, do not seem to be
> very durable. At least, that's what I observed early on in clay and so I
> have never used one. As Edouard mentions, Omega has digital indicators.
> They also have virtually everything related to temperature measurement.
>
> Happy Holidays!
> Dave Finkelnburg
>
> ------------------------------
> Edouard wrote:
> Mel ,
> I would not use a K-type thermocouple, unless it is made with with very
> thick wires, above cone 4 (Konuzo 4 in Esperanto), but a S or R.(Ask Davi=
d
> Finkelnberg)
>
> For the readout, check with Omega :
> http://www.omega.com/
>
> Gis,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
> Spertesperantisto

Steve Mills on sun 25 dec 11

This is the one:
http://www.omega.co.uk/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=3DHH506A_HH506RA
in your part of the world:
http://www.omega.ca/shop/pptsc.asp?ref=3DHH506A_HH506RA

Mine is an earlier version, but pretty much the same.

excellent piece of kit.

Steve M


On 25 December 2011 16:48, Edouard Bastarache wrote:

> Here is what I found after Googling "Data Loggers Omega"
>
> http://www.omega.ca/shop/dsc.**html
>
> Gis,
>
> Edouard Bastarache
> Spertesperantisto
>
> Sorel-Tracy
> Quebec
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**30058682@N00//30058682@N00/>
> http://edouardbastarache.**blogspot.com/t.com/>
> http://**edouardbastaracheblogs2.**blogspot.com/blogs2.blogspot.com/>
> http://www.facebook.com/**edouard.bastaracheard.bastarache>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Mills" <
> original.mudslinger@GMAIL.COM**>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: pyrometers
>
>
>
> We used to get the Multi-Type Digital Meters we sold at Bath Potters'
> Supplies from Omega, until, in my capacity as Source Detective :-) I foun=
d
> out who made them in Taiwan.
> They are more correctly described as portable Data Loggers, but they work
> very well indeed as plain Pyrometers, have a rubber protective over-case,
> are self adjusting, and use a PP3 battery which lasts a long time.
> Thermocouple type selection is very simple, and they connect using a
> micro-plug which, if you use the one matching the Thermocouple, gives ver=
y
> accurate readings.
>
> Steve M
>
>
> Steve Mills
> Bath
> UK
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On 25 Dec 2011, at 01:42, David Finkelnburg
> wrote:
>
> My personal experience with type K thermocouples has been very good, eve=
n
>> in reduction firing to cone 10, but I am firing with natural gas, not wo=
od
>> or oil. Also, my thermocouples have come from Marc Ward, Ward Burner
>> Systems and are 1/8-inch diameter, which is thick enough that they last
>> much longer. I have not seen significant drift in the readout during the
>> last 12 years. I do have the thermocouple connected to an industrial
>> digital indicator (Doric) which I have had calibrated by an experienced
>> instrument technician. However, having said all this I would still neve=
r
>> consider firing crystal glazes with such a thermocouple. The accuracy of=
a
>> type S or better is what one needs for that. Also, I always glaze fire
>> with
>> multiple cone packs. I have a complete backup thermocouple assembly but =
I
>> use the cone packs to check the kiln top to bottom and front to back and
>> side to side. It assures me that the ware in the kiln is fired to the sa=
me
>> end point.
>>
>> The biggest problem I have seen with thermocouples is actually from the
>> readout. Cheap thermocouple indicators, the dial type, do not seem to be
>> very durable. At least, that's what I observed early on in clay and so I
>> have never used one. As Edouard mentions, Omega has digital indicators.
>> They also have virtually everything related to temperature measurement.
>>
>> Happy Holidays!
>> Dave Finkelnburg
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Edouard wrote:
>> Mel ,
>> I would not use a K-type thermocouple, unless it is made with with very
>> thick wires, above cone 4 (Konuzo 4 in Esperanto), but a S or R.(Ask Dav=
id
>> Finkelnberg)
>>
>> For the readout, check with Omega :
>> http://www.omega.com/
>>
>> Gis,
>>
>> Edouard Bastarache
>> Spertesperantisto
>>
>
>