Carl D. Cravens on tue 16 apr 96
On Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:56:38 EDT, Carla Flati <76103.2240@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
>What is talent anyway? Is it just being skilled at something, or is it a
>combination of skill, creativity and a passion for whatever it is you're
>"talented" in? For the sake of argument, I consider it the combination.
This definition colors all further argument, so we'd better clear it up
first. I consider "talent" to be in-born aptitude, a "knack" for
learning certain skills. Talent is not skill. Talent is not
creativity. Talent is not passion. Having talent makes the learning
easier, but not having talent doesn't make it impossible... the
untalented potter can learn and can do well, but he may never "catch up"
to the talented potter who has put in as much time and effort towards
learning. If the talented potter is lazy (has no passion) and the
untalented potter is full of passion and works hard at learning... who
is the better potter? But I think creativity is a whole 'nuther ball
game.
Now to clarify points based on my definition.
>This is true to a point, but what will you learn? You can learn the skills of
>the trade... how to throw, how to formulate your owns glazes, how to fire, but
>without the talent , everything you make will look just like the work of the
>person or persons that taught you. Without the creativity there's nothing
>pushing you to take it one step further. Nothing to make it your own.
Point clarified by definition. Talent isn't creativity. [see my end
note]
>Exactly! But I don't think we look at this in the same way. When I think back
>to school, the things that didn't come easy for me are the things that I still
>have absolutely no interest in. Even though I made good grades, I hated math i
>any form...algebra, trig, geometry....yuk! I really had to study for those A's
Talent has little to do with passion (or liking). I have a talent for
library research... it's an extension of the logical talents I have that
make programming easy for me. I happen to hate doing library research.
Just because I find it *easy to learn* (where my classmates find it
terribly hard) doesn't mean I'll necessarily *like* it.
>listened to that man! Carl believes a person can learn something that doesn'
>come naturally. I say why pursue something that is difficult for you? Too man
Why should lacking talent make it *difficult*? Are you saying I should
do *only* the things that come easily? Where's the challenge in that?
There're degrees of "easy" and "difficult," just as there are degrees of
"talent."
We all learn things that don't come naturally... driving a car, figuring
income tax, typing, using our emailers. Many of these things we don't
like doing or didn't like learning... but we did so anyway, either
through need or desire. If I can struggle through typing class (I now
type 90+ wpm) which I detested, I can certainly struggle through
learning to throw, which I find enjoyable and challenging.
>kids are forced into doing things that don't come naturally to them and they en
>up as adults who hate what they do for a living. Not that we shouldn't look
>forward to a challenge, but I'm talking about your life's work. I love a
>challenge when it has to do with with the things I love, but don't throw a math
>test in front of me or you might get your hand bitten off.
Why are we talking about life's work all of a sudden? Clayart isn't
reserved for professionals only; this is a hobby for many of us. When
it comes to pottery, I want to *play*... I want to have *fun*. If, in
the end, it was more frustration than fun, something went wrong. Maybe
I *did* choose something that's too hard for me... but I can't find that
out until I've given it a serious go.
Do what you enjoy, if you can... but not everyone has the chance to do
what they enjoy or are talented at. I've got a talent for programming,
but for most of my life my circumstances have made me cook burgers,
sweep floors, pack crates, and build airplanes. I've rarely gotten to
program. (Which is why I'm nearing the end of earning my degree at
27... nobody wants to give me an interview without the degree anymore.)
As an aside... I am very good at (talented, even) and greatly enjoy
puns. But puns are a spontaneous thing, requiring a certain quick wit
to react to real-life conversation... you can't put puns on a stage.
I'd love to make a living at it, but... it just wouldn't work. For
many, art is the same way... they'd love to be a professional artist,
but can't get the breaks or art just won't support the financial life
style they'd prefer. (Only so many people can be artists... we need
street sweepers as well as artists.)
>Beside our immediate family, my kids' teachers are the most important people i
[...agreeable but somewhat irrelevant stuff about teachers snipped...]
>One more thing. You may be able to learn clay, but I gotta tell ya.....there's
>no way in this world that I could ever learn to sing. Even though I would love
>to be able to, it's just not in me. To spare my family and friends any
>discomfort, I usually lip synch Happy Birthday. So you see, sometimes
>dedication, sincerity and practice just doesn't cut it. I've been practicing
>for a looooooong time. ;-)
There are physical limitations to some activities. Can't throw pots
without hands and arms to work the clay. (And please, no flames... it's
not meant to be inflammatory. If you or someone you know has overcome a
serious physical limitation and learned to throw pots, I'd love to hear
about it.)
Most people who can't sing *can* be taught to do well by a skilled
instructor... but most people, like me, just don't have the time, money,
or inclination to learn. I started singing in church about six years
ago. I'm much better than I used to be (mostly because I've learned
many of the limitations, and *strengths*, of my voice), but I'm still
not good enough to sing solo. (I have a nearly radio-quality voice...
but I don't have the range to sing the way I'd like to.)
Desire, dedication, and perserverance. I believe that *these* are the
key. Talent is helpful, but not necessary. Creativity has to come
along somewhere in there, but creativity can be cultivated... it doesn't
have to be present there at the start. (Okay, to get picky with
myself... I think *everyone* is creative. Some just haven't figured
out how to tap their personal creativity yet. Sometimes it takes the
right *medium* to bring it out. And I don't think creativity can really
bloom until one has mastered the craft to the point that the craft is
unconscious (to echo a person's example of his music instruction).)
--
Carl (ravenpub@southwind.net)
* Contentsoftaglinemaysettleduringshipping.
CaroleER@aol.com on wed 17 apr 96
In a message dated 96-04-16 19:26:36 EDT, Carl writes:
>I have a talent for library research... I happen to hate doing library
research.
>Just because I find it *easy to learn* (where my classmates find it
>terribly hard) doesn't mean I'll necessarily *like* it.
Perhaps you don't have a *talent* for library research - only the skill.
>Why should lacking talent make it *difficult*? Are you saying I should
>do *only* the things that come easily? Where's the challenge in that?
>There're degrees of "easy" and "difficult," just as there are degrees of
>"talent."
Many things for which one has a talent are difficult. The difference comes
when you have no desire to overcome difficulties. Perhaps it's the talent
ingredient which makes overcomming the difficulty fun and challenging. Don't
forget, overcomming difficulties *is* some people's talent.
>Do what you enjoy, if you can... but not everyone has the chance to do
>what they enjoy or are talented at. I've got a talent for programming,
>but for most of my life my circumstances have made me cook burgers,
>sweep floors, pack crates, and build airplanes. I've rarely gotten to
>program. (Which is why I'm nearing the end of earning my degree at
>27... nobody wants to give me an interview without the degree anymore.)
Sounds like you've had a lot of jobs in your short little life! How much of
your life have you really spent doing things you don't enjoy? We all pay a
little dues on the way to our *chosen* life's work! Suppose after you have
your degree and landed a great job, you find out that programming all damn
day bores you into unconsiousness?
>As an aside... I am very good at (talented, even) and greatly enjoy
>puns. But puns are a spontaneous thing, requiring a certain quick wit
>to react to real-life conversation... you can't put puns on a stage.
>I'd love to make a living at it, but... it just wouldn't work.
Maybe puns are only one sideline of your talent. Maybe in a broader sense
you are talented at comedy. Maybe what you like about programming is the
structure and the logic.
>Creativity has to come along somewhere in there, but creativity can be
cultivated... it >doesn't have to be present there at the start. (Okay, to
get picky with
>myself... I think *everyone* is creative. Some just haven't figured
>out how to tap their personal creativity yet. Sometimes it takes the
>right *medium* to bring it out. And I don't think creativity can really
>bloom until one has mastered the craft to the point that the craft is
>unconscious (to echo a person's example of his music instruction).)
I agree.
I believe we are all creative at birth (at least women are). Through
conditioning by society and teachers and parents etc., our creativity is
smothered so that we can do something *constructive* with our lives. As a
result we have a lot of neurotic people hanging around. Many of us don't
resurrect our creativity until after our kids are grown and we've taken care
of our *responsibilities*. By then we have to really search for our
creativity before we can even begin to develop it - further behind than when
we started!
Carole Rishel
Bastrop,TX
CaroleER@aol.com
Carl D. Cravens on thu 18 apr 96
On Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:33:15 EDT, CaroleER@aol.com wrote:
>Perhaps you don't have a *talent* for library research - only the skill.
This is where we get into the trickiness of defining a slippery word.
It took little effort to develop the skill... I didn't have to work at
it, it came naturally. That's how I define talent. But library
research is really a logical thing... I have a talent for logic, which
naturally extends to library research. I like many things which are
logical... and dislike others.
>ingredient which makes overcomming the difficulty fun and challenging. Don't
>forget, overcomming difficulties *is* some people's talent.
Sometimes I think my true talent is in starting new hobbies and never
mastering them.
>Sounds like you've had a lot of jobs in your short little life! How much of
Until Boeing, I never managed to spend more than 18 months at a job...
I got bored by them and went searching for more meaningful work. Boeing
wasn't meaningful work, but the pay certainly was. (It was only triple
what I've made anywhere else. But I was glad to get laid off.)
>your life have you really spent doing things you don't enjoy? We all pay a
>little dues on the way to our *chosen* life's work! Suppose after you have
>your degree and landed a great job, you find out that programming all damn
>day bores you into unconsiousness?
I've programmed for a living before... just in little chunks, though.
Temporary jobs, etc. Problem is, we all run the risk of not liking our
chosen profession when we thought we would. If it turns out I don't
like it, I'll turn to something else... I've got good people skills and
I'd like to try teaching.
(I currently have the first job that I've really enjoyed. I'm working
for an Internet provider in tech support. The interpersonal environment
is getting a little tense, as we've signed up more new customers in the
last four months than we did in the previous 12 and we're having trouble
keeping up.)
>Maybe puns are only one sideline of your talent. Maybe in a broader sense
>you are talented at comedy. Maybe what you like about programming is the
>structure and the logic.
Nah, I've never been very good at other humor. And you've hit it on
programming, mostly. There's something about creating on the computer
that's different from anything else... giving it instructions and having
it respond to my every whim. (After I beat it into submission through
debugging sessions, of course. :)
>of our *responsibilities*. By then we have to really search for our
>creativity before we can even begin to develop it - further behind than when
>we started!
I've been looking for a way to express mine outside of a computer. I
need VISUAL creativity, which doesn't happen in programming that's
hidden away. I've been learning woodworking, but it's expensive. I
wanted to try my hand at clay again... there's something about a
well-made pot that I can connect with.
--
Carl (ravenpub@southwind.net)
* BASIC programmers never die, they GOSUB without RETURN.
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