Ron Roy on sat 16 aug 97
This is a substitute for bone ash but I have tried everywhere to find an
analysis. Would those of you who have such a thing please send it to me.
I would also be interested to know how a straight substitution of
Tri-cal-phos for bone ash works - if anyone has tried it.
Thanks for any help on this subject.
There are two grades - ceramic and N C food safe - I have the kind you can eat.
Ron Roy
Toronto, Canada
Evenings, call 416 439 2621
Fax, 416 438 7849
Studio: 416-752-7862.
Email ronroy@astral.magic.ca
Home page http://digitalfire.com/education/people/ronroy.htm
June Perry on sun 17 aug 97
Dear Ron:
This is what I have for Tri calcium phosphate:
3Na2O P2O5 Molecular weight 328
Warm regards,
June
Daniel W Kirkland on sun 17 aug 97
This is the technical information that I have regarding tricalcium
phosphate:
The chemical formula is: Ca5OH(PO4)3
The molecular weight is 100.5
And it brings in 1.000 CaO and .300 P2O5
I have not used tricalcium phosphate. However, I do know that it is one
of John Chalke's favorite materials.
And to quote him from Ceramics Monthly (unfortunately, I do not know the
date of the issue that this is coming from):
"Tricalcium phosphate is a type of bone ash mined in Ontario and Quebec
as the material apatite. Unless you re ready for it it s the one that
startles by fizzing and bubbling in a glaze, and for a while can make the
studio smell like a badly digested meal. However, these are minor
drawbacks for a material of such great potential. I ve started using it
much more over a previous favorite -- real bone ash. Anything up to 12%
is a real surface enhancer, especially in iron glazes. For example,
using between 12% and 15% tricalcium phosphate in magnesium glazes gives
dramatic results, forming deep craters and throwing up segregations of
metals like iron so that they lie on the surface in small clumps.
The other bone ash is far more staid. I use it in equal proportions to
calm down cryolite, whereby it adds reliability to a surface otherwise
somewhat prone to release of solubles.
Side by side the chemical breakdown of both bone ashes looks very
similar. In practice, they are appreciably different. Originally, I
tried to see their separate and reputed enriching effects on iron; I
found that tricalcium phosphate works better at this. (Odd, though, when
a material containing calcium usually bleaches iron.) Unashamedly
esoteric, one of my very favorite glazes uses both types of bone ash. I
can t get the particular textural results any other way."
He also offers one glaze using tricalcium phosphate:
Wild Rose Temmoku (cone 6)
Lithium Carbonate 1.50
Tricalcium Phosphate 1.50
Nepheline Syenite 8.75
#6 Tile 2.50
Red Iron Oxide 1.50
Daniel Kirkland
e-mail: danielkirkland@juno.com
M Richens on sun 17 aug 97
In article , Ron Roy
writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>This is a substitute for bone ash but I have tried everywhere to find an
>analysis. Would those of you who have such a thing please send it to me.
>
>I would also be interested to know how a straight substitution of
>Tri-cal-phos for bone ash works - if anyone has tried it.
>
>Thanks for any help on this subject.
>
>There are two grades - ceramic and N C food safe - I have the kind you can eat.
>
>Ron Roy
>Toronto, Canada
>Evenings, call 416 439 2621
>Fax, 416 438 7849
>Studio: 416-752-7862.
>Email ronroy@astral.magic.ca
>Home page http://digitalfire.com/education/people/ronroy.htm
Hi Ron,
Bone ash, as you know, is HydroxyApatite Ca5(OH)(PO4)3
This reacts when making bone china to give
Anorthite CaAl2Si2O8 and
triCalcium orthoPhosphate (aka TriCalcium Phosphate) Ca3(PO4)2
(ref Ceramic Raw Materials W.E Worrall)
so
2*Ca5(OH)(PO4)3 --> 3*Ca3(PO4)2 + Ca(OH)2
So from this you would need to add some extra with lime to balance up
the fluxes.
I think there are some artificial HydroxyApatites about but you
sometimes need to reduce the amounts as they seem to flux lower and give
sagging. You'ld need to experiment.
Max
cc RR and group
--
Max Richens max@richens.demon.co.uk +44 (0) 1925756241
Enamel Consultant - Ceramist - Analyst programmer
Software for Batch Formulation and Millroom control.
Tom Buck on mon 18 aug 97
Ron/June. Perhaps when you reread the post, June, you may have noticed
that your analysis was for tri-SODIUM-phosphate.
In fact, food-grade tricalcium phosphate is produced strictly from
furnace-grade elemental phosphorus since the fertilizer plants making
phosphoric acid do not yield a pure enough product to meet standards.
But the actual phosphate from a food-grade plant is not exactly
tricalcium phosphate, Ca3(PO4)2, but rather a form of hydroxyapatite,
Ca5OH(PO4)3. But significantly the food-grade material is rated at 99.9%
pure. And even the techincal grade from the same plant would run 99% pure.
So, doing some maths, and using an older bone ash composition on
hand, here is the comparison:
Trical food-grade Bone ash (typical)
Elemental calcium 39.8% 38.5%
Elemental phosphorus 18.5% 17.8%
(Note: it is easier to make the comparison on a elemental basis rather
than on an oxide basis, hence the numbers cited.)
So, as one can see from the numbers, food-grade trical has approx.
3.5-4% more calcium phosphate than does a typical bone ash. And since most
glaze recipe do not call from much more than 15% bone ash, the error using
food-grade trical would be under 1%, well within normal scale error.
Tom Buck )
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Bill Aycock on mon 18 aug 97
Ron- What I have found is for a feed supplement, although the same source
has lots more data. Try looking at
http://www.rp.rpna.com/phosprod/S-T/tricfeed.htm.
I wont copy the many names it goes by here. You can get all the technical
data there. It is similar to an MSDS, but without the safety emphasis.
Interestingly, I note that June has sent you some data about the compound
that is the sodium counterpart. It would be interesting to compare the
effect of the two different compounds as glaze ingredients.
Also- I note that Dan Kirkland has sent a good note on the material- please
note, however, that the molecular wt he quotes is off by a factor of ten.
At 08:36 AM 8/16/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>This is a substitute for bone ash but I have tried everywhere to find an
>analysis. Would those of you who have such a thing please send it to me.
>
>I would also be interested to know how a straight substitution of
>Tri-cal-phos for bone ash works - if anyone has tried it.
>
>Thanks for any help on this subject.
>
>There are two grades - ceramic and N C food safe - I have the kind you can
eat.
>
>Ron Roy
>Toronto, Canada
>Evenings, call 416 439 2621
>Fax, 416 438 7849
>Studio: 416-752-7862.
>Email ronroy@astral.magic.ca
>Home page http://digitalfire.com/education/people/ronroy.htm
>
>
Bill Aycock --- Persimmon Hill --- Woodville, Alabama, US 35776
--- (in the N.E. corner of the State) ---
also -- W4BSG -- Grid EM64vr
baycock@hiwaay.net
Jim Horvitz on tue 19 aug 97
There is no Sodiun in Tri calciun Phosphate.
Ron Roy on wed 20 aug 97
Hi Tom,
Thanks so much for your input on this. Now if you could go one step further
and tell me the actual analysis (total 100) I should use in Insight I would
be most grateful. I am also trying to deal with the LOI question - so far I
have anywhere froma max of 10.0 to 0.03 (4 sight) - I guess I will have to
calcine some to be sure I guess. There is also the distributers claim that
it deteriorates. My question to you is - in what way?
In the Ceramic Industry Materials Handbook (1995) they say slightly soluble
in cold water but decomposes in hot water - can I believe that.
Speck sheet says it's an anti caking agent in sugar, salt, Talc, and many
dry food formulations. It's also used in toothpaste, mineral supplement and
pharmaceutical tablet preparations.
Thanks for any more you can add.
> So, doing some maths, and using an older bone ash composition on
>hand, here is the comparison:
> Trical food-grade Bone ash (typical)
>Elemental calcium 39.8% 38.5%
>Elemental phosphorus 18.5% 17.8%
>(Note: it is easier to make the comparison on a elemental basis rather
>than on an oxide basis, hence the numbers cited.)
> So, as one can see from the numbers, food-grade trical has approx.
>3.5-4% more calcium phosphate than does a typical bone ash. And since most
>glaze recipe do not call from much more than 15% bone ash, the error using
>food-grade trical would be under 1%, well within normal scale error.
>
>Tom Buck )
>Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Ron Roy
Toronto, Canada
Evenings, call 416 439 2621
Fax, 416 438 7849
Studio: 416-752-7862.
Email ronroy@astral.magic.ca
Home page http://digitalfire.com/education/people/ronroy.htm
Craig Martell on tue 20 apr 04
Hi:
Tri Calcium Phosphate is what a lot of us use instead of calcined animal
bones. I still have some English Bone Ash that I purchased well before any
hysteria about mad cows and I use it sparingly. I use some of the pots
that have been made with the animal bone as and I seem to be ok although
some may take issue with that. 8>)
Tri Cal isn't really a chemically synthesized material. It is extracted
and produced from the mineral Apatite Ca5(PO4)3(F,Cl,OH) Apatite has a
hardness of 5. It forms in ingneous rocks and metamorphosed limestone.
be careful out there, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
ps, My glazes are fine but I'm wondering if some of the food that we eat
is actually food safe?
wayneinkeywest on tue 20 apr 04
Craig:
Tri-Calcium Phosphate, such as one would buy in the box marked TCP
for washing walls? (Don't _ever_ use it on glass, it etches!)
Best Regards,
Wayne Seidl
Key West, Florida, USA
Latitude 81.8, Longitude 24.4 (about)
Elevation 3.1 feet (1m)
> Tri Calcium Phosphate is what a lot of us use instead of calcined
animal
> bones. I still have some English Bone Ash that I purchased well
before any
> hysteria about mad cows and I use it sparingly. I use some of the
pots
> that have been made with the animal bone as and I seem to be ok
although
> some may take issue with that. 8>)
>
> Tri Cal isn't really a chemically synthesized material. It is
extracted
> and produced from the mineral Apatite Ca5(PO4)3(F,Cl,OH) Apatite
has a
> hardness of 5. It forms in ingneous rocks and metamorphosed
limestone.
>
> be careful out there, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
>
> ps, My glazes are fine but I'm wondering if some of the food that
we eat
> is actually food safe?
>
>
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>
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 20 apr 04
Hi Craig,
You mention a very good point here...
I would like to see us spend more time discussing which
Foods are 'Glaze Safe', as well as which Glazes are 'food
safe'...
Phil
@ my cluttered, paper piled, W.P.A. Oak desk, in the
'office'...
(I do not know the latitude and longitude, but...)
1409 South Commerce Street
Las Vegas, Nevada, U.S.A.
Earth, Sol Solar System, Milky Way Gallaxie ( - or is that
the way 'Ford' spelled it?) , the Universe, etc...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Martell"
> Hi:
>
> Tri Calcium Phosphate is what a lot of us use instead of
calcined animal
> bones. I still have some English Bone Ash that I
purchased well before any
> hysteria about mad cows and I use it sparingly. I use
some of the pots
> that have been made with the animal bone as and I seem to
be ok although
> some may take issue with that. 8>)
>
> Tri Cal isn't really a chemically synthesized material.
It is extracted
> and produced from the mineral Apatite Ca5(PO4)3(F,Cl,OH)
Apatite has a
> hardness of 5. It forms in ingneous rocks and
metamorphosed limestone.
>
> be careful out there, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
>
> ps, My glazes are fine but I'm wondering if some of the
food that we eat
> is actually food safe?
Craig Martell on tue 20 apr 04
Wayne asked:
>Tri-Calcium Phosphate, such as one would buy in the box marked TCP
>for washing walls?
Hello Wayne:
Dunno! It may be the same stuff, but it might be a different grade,
purity, and or mesh.
regards, Craig Martell Hopewell, Oregon
Ivor and Olive Lewis on wed 21 apr 04
Dear Friends,
Calcium Phosphate...Ca3(PO4)2 ...MW 310.177....Mp 1670=BA C....3038=BA F.
Has a wide variety of uses. Found in the Earth as Apatite Minerals.
Also recycled from Organic sources as Bone Ash. Starting point for an
important chemical industry. An essential ingredient in many processed
foods.
Total World reserves of Phosphate rocks are in the order of nine
billion tonnes, 4.6 Billion Tonnes being in Africa. Used at current
rates should last several centuries.
Heating Bone residues to ceramic temperatures would denature and
destroy all organic compounds by oxidation yielding Carbon Dioxide,
Nitrogen Dioxide, Sulphur Dioxide and Water. If "Prions" are based on
Amino Acids, that would be their fate.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis. Redhill, South Australia.
Lee Love on wed 21 apr 04
Craig Martell wrote:
>
> Tri Calcium Phosphate is what a lot of us use instead of calcined animal
> bones. I still have some English Bone Ash that I purchased well
> before any
> hysteria about mad cows and I use it sparingly.
You make a good point Craig. When I left Minnesota four and a
half years ago, I couldn't buy bone ash but only Tri Calcium Phosphate.
So this discussion is for the most part theoretical, like our previous
discussion of uranium in glazes.
> ps, My glazes are fine but I'm wondering if some of the food that we eat
> is actually food safe?
While we focus on bone ash in glazes, we overlook the fact that
bone meal and other bovine byproducts are still being fed to our pets
and also the chicken we eat. Chicken manure is fed to cattle. It
might be better to think about prions leaching from our food on to our
ceramics. Maybe we shouldn't let our dogs lick our face? :-( ;-)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan http://mashiko.org
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