vinegar

updated mon 14 mar 11

Fink on sat 25 jan 97

Hi all!

I managed to lose the information on vinegar in glazes.
Would someone please send me details.
Is this suitable for bisque as well as greenware? And what proportion of vinegar
Thanks

Joan Fink
sfink@netvision.net il

mel jacobson on wed 19 feb 97

i do not think there is a special formula...but 50/50 is nice
and 40/60 is nice...no science on this one... just mix it and
dump it in... as tom buck says "all living things need nitrogen
to live...." and i really think that the vinegar/ammonia combo
helps keep the icky stink away... but golly what is the best
odor in the world to a potter........stinky clay. and it sure keeps
the students away from the good clay...but they do get smart after
awhile. mel. in minnesota..........ASAP, SASE, HCASLC.
(anyone notice a post today, interesting?)

Lori Leary on thu 20 feb 97

All of this talk of reclaiming clay has motivated me to do exactly
that...and I will be sure to use MMM (Mel's Magic Mixture).

One thing though...a while back someone posted a clever way to reclaim
clay using blue jeans. Anyone care to re-enlighten me? I think I can
safely use my old Levis' from high school....don't think I'll be getting
into them anytime soon....sigh! %-
Lori L.
Pawleys Island SC
80 glorious degrees F here (that means Farenheit)

Oh, BTW mel.....when you made your magic mixture up for your students,
did you tell them to BYOB?

Cheryl L Litman on wed 4 jun 97

What does vinegar do for you and why? I've been told to add it to slip
to help prevent joining cracks? One person says they don't use slip,
just vinegar?

NAME on thu 5 jun 97

I use vinegar to correct the Ph of certain clays that exhibt thixotropic
nature, such as porcelains that contain high amounts of soda feldspars.
Also, it can help defloccate slips when used with other deflocculants.

good luck, J.SCHMUKI

Donald G. Goldsobel on thu 5 jun 97

At 09:07 AM 6/4/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>What does vinegar do for you and why? I've been told to add it to slip
>to help prevent joining cracks? One person says they don't use slip,
>just vinegar?
>
>At the Cahuenga Potter's Studio in North Hollywood, Harry Berman teaches
the use of vinegar instead of slip It has worked as well as slip and is
easier to use and neater.

J Rose Fine Pottery on thu 5 jun 97

Cheryl L Litman wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> What does vinegar do for you and why? I've been told to add it to slip
> to help prevent joining cracks? One person says they don't use slip,
> just vinegar?
Hi,
I use vinegar in throwing water to make the clay work more easily. It
works well!
June Rosenberry
JRoseFine@Earthlink.net

the cat lady on thu 5 jun 97

At 09:07 AM 6/4/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>What does vinegar do for you and why? I've been told to add it to slip
>to help prevent joining cracks? One person says they don't use slip,
>just vinegar?
>
>

Ron Roy (Thank you Ron!) told me about using vinegar instead of slip to
attach handles when I was having a problem. Since then, I've replaced
slip with vinegar for *all* my attachments...ie. when I want to add a
coil to the bottom of a leather-hard pot to throw a foot. I only have
to cover the joined area over night (or perhaps not at all - too
chicken to experiment) and then let dry.

One word of caution - I live in SW Ontario, Canada where our weather
(by the sounds of things) is similar to Seattle :)

sam - alias the cat lady
Melbourne, Ontario, CANADA
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
scuttell@wwdc.com

The more people I meet, the more I like my pets.......

Ron Roy on thu 5 jun 97

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>What does vinegar do for you and why? I've been told to add it to slip
>to help prevent joining cracks? One person says they don't use slip,
>just vinegar?

I use just vinegar to add handles. Porcelain has a tendency to crack around
joints when water or slip is used. As to why it works I can only guess.
First it must lower surface tension in clay and make it wet easier. It also
flocculates the clay on the surface and makes it sticky fast so you don't
have to work it into the pot. The net result is there is not a lot of wet
clay around the joint to shrink and crack. Helps of you like the smell of
vinegar - which I do. They say the cider vinegar has the edge over the
clear.

Ron Roy
Toronto, Canada
Evenings, call 416 439 2621
Fax, 416 438 7849
Studio: 416-752-7862.
Email ronroy@astral.magic.ca
Home page http://digitalfire.com/education/ronroy.htm

Clayphil on fri 6 jun 97

I mix me slip with vinegar,
I done it all me life.
I makes me pots smell funny,
but it sticks me handles nice!

Vinegar, wonder tonic for clay. I prefer cider, thought any type will do.
Great for mixing a really good slurry for attaching stuff, mending the
occational crack, adding to newly mixed clay, with olive oil on a salad,
soothes a sunburn, too; All sorts of uses. Phil in Chicago

stevemills on fri 6 jun 97

Dear Cheryl,
I use cider vinegar to mend broken greenware. Add it to my
reclaim,(especially if there is a lot of dry clay in it) to promote
souring. Because it is a live yeast culture it speeds up the growth and
decay of micro-organisms in the clay which in turn gives us increased
plasticity. I have also used it instead of the tobacco juice trick on
Mocha ware. This is in addition to its culinary uses!!
Steve
In message , Cheryl L Litman writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>What does vinegar do for you and why? I've been told to add it to slip
>to help prevent joining cracks? One person says they don't use slip,
>just vinegar?
>

--
Steve Mills
@Bath Potters Supplies
Dorset Close
Bath
BA2 3RF
UK
Tel:(44) (0)1225 337046
Fax:(44) (0)1225 462712

Vince Pitelka on sat 7 jun 97

At 09:51 AM 6/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>I mix me slip with vinegar,
>I done it all me life.
>I makes me pots smell funny,
>but it sticks me handles nice!
>
>Vinegar, wonder tonic for clay. I prefer cider, thought any type will do.
> Great for mixing a really good slurry for attaching stuff, mending the
>occational crack, adding to newly mixed clay, with olive oil on a salad,
>soothes a sunburn, too; All sorts of uses. Phil in Chicago

Phil -
An especially nice poem and post, more so because of an unusually high
percentage of acidic posts on Clayart recently. Currently my favorite
vinegar (not for salads - balsamic only for salads! - just my own opinion of
course!) is the very dark and flavorful East Asian vinegar which can be
bought in Asian markets for incredibly cheap (about $2 for a qt.), in tall
quart bottles covered with undecipherable characters. Add wonderful zest to
sauces and gravies. With Asian chili sauce forms the essence of a good
hot-and-sour soup with any rich broth. OK, that's my culinary tip for the day.
- Vince

Vince Pitelka - vpitelka@DeKalb.net
Home 615/597-5376, work 615/597-6801, fax 615/597-6803
Appalachian Center for Crafts
1560 Craft Center Drive, Smithville TN 37166

Wil Shynkaruk on sun 8 jun 97

I have always considered the use of vinegar in joining slip to be one of
the many old wives tales so prevalent in ceramics. Until Ron's post I
have not heard any even vaguely scientific explanation for its use. But
would vinegar actually lower the surface tention allowing the clay to
become sticky with less wetting? I have always thought vinegar to have a
flocculating effect on clay. Do flocculants lower surface tention? I
have thought this to be the result of deflocculation. Would not a
product like Darvan-7 do a better job. Has anyone done comparative
testing of the two. Ron have you ever tried Darvan to see if it works
better. I have always thought the use of vinegar to be akin to the
placebo effect. If anyone knows more about the scientific reasoning for
the use of vinegar, several of our graduate students would love for you
to straiten me out.


Wil Shynkaruk
Utah State University

Ron Roy on sun 8 jun 97

> Ron have you ever tried Darvan to see if it works
>better. I have always thought the use of vinegar to be akin to the
>placebo effect.

Hi Wil, Never have tried Darvan - it is a deflocculant and vinegar the
opposite. I've been using the vinegar for 15 years now and have not had any
cracking at handle joins. Before - using water or slip it was a consistent
problem.

Sounds like you should do some experiments - just do them on porcelain - I
don't think the problem is of the same significance with most stoneware
clays.

It's an interesting point about old wives tales - there are many in this
business - is it possible for old wives to be right?

Ron Roy
Toronto, Canada
Evenings, call 416 439 2621
Fax, 416 438 7849
Studio: 416-752-7862.
Email ronroy@astral.magic.ca
Home page http://digitalfire.com/education/ronroy.htm

"Rafael Molina-Rodriguez (Rafael Molina-Rodriguez)" on sun 8 jun 97

Wil :

This is a very interesting topic. I have always followed the conventional
wisdom and used vinegar in my joining slip. Lately, my classes have
experienced problems with coils and slabs bonding.

It's very disappointing for students to invest the time and materials in a
project only to have it separate. My solution to the problem is to make a
deflocculated joining slip. The idea is that a deflocculated slip will have
less water hence less shrinkage and hopefully a better bond.

The recipe I use for a deflocculated slip is from Charles McKee's
"Ceramics Handbook A Guide to Glaze Calculation Materials and
Processes."

Deflocculated Slip

Dry Clay 2
Water 1

Sodium Silicate .5 % of Dry Clay
Soda Ash .5 % of Dry Clay

I'm currently experimenting with this technique. I'll submit results to the
group.

Rafael
rmr3431@dcccd.edu

>>> Wil Shynkaruk 06/08/97 10:23am >>>
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I have always considered the use of vinegar in joining slip to be one of
the many old wives tales so prevalent in ceramics. Until Ron's post I
have not heard any even vaguely scientific explanation for its use. But
would vinegar actually lower the surface tention allowing the clay to
become sticky with less wetting? I have always thought vinegar to have a
flocculating effect on clay. Do flocculants lower surface tention? I
have thought this to be the result of deflocculation. Would not a
product like Darvan-7 do a better job. Has anyone done comparative
testing of the two. Ron have you ever tried Darvan to see if it works
better. I have always thought the use of vinegar to be akin to the
placebo effect. If anyone knows more about the scientific reasoning for
the use of vinegar, several of our graduate students would love for you
to straiten me out.


Wil Shynkaruk
Utah State University

Cummings Pottery on mon 9 jun 97

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:23:48 EDT
From: Wil Shynkaruk
Subject: Re: Vinegar

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I have always considered the use of vinegar in joining slip to be one of
the many old wives tales so prevalent in ceramics. Until Ron's post I
have not heard any even vaguely scientific explanation for its use. But
would vinegar actually lower the surface tention allowing the clay to
become sticky with less wetting? I have always thought vinegar to have a
flocculating effect on clay. Do flocculants lower surface tention? I
have thought this to be the result of deflocculation. Would not a
product like Darvan-7 do a better job. Has anyone done comparative
testing of the two. Ron have you ever tried Darvan to see if it works
better. I have always thought the use of vinegar to be akin to the
placebo effect. If anyone knows more about the scientific reasoning for
the use of vinegar, several of our graduate students would love for you
to straiten me out.


Wil Shynkaruk
Utah State University
--------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, I'll jump in on this one. As I understand it, water evaporates and
vinegar doesn't, it just dries up. So, for example, if you wanted to mend a
dry piece of greenware, you could take a piece of dry scrap clay, mush it
with vinegar, apply to area needing mending, and it will dry smooth. Do the
same with dry scrap clay and water, and when the mend dries we know it will
be all cracked and weird looking. So I imagine the vinegar works for
joining slip for the same reason - it doesn't evaporate.
DISCLAIMER: the ideas expressed above are not to be considered as that of a
scientist, but only those of an old wife. Pat :D

Tony Hansen on mon 9 jun 97

> Deflocculated Slip
> Dry Clay 2
> Water 1
> Sodium Silicate .5 % of Dry Clay
> Soda Ash .5 % of Dry Clay

The deflocculation process is tricky and it is just about impossible to
come up with a universal recipe. This is because different clays require
different amounts of deflocculant. Others work better with certain
deflocculants. Some clays have solubles that completely
prevent deflocculation. The nature of the recipe is important.

Check this page for some theory and a simple technique:
www.ceramicsoftware.com/magic/slip.htm

--
Tony Hansen, IMC thansen@mlc.awinc.com

Debi Beck on fri 13 jun 97

>I use cider vinegar
>instead of the tobacco juice trick on Mocha ware.
Steve, What's this about. . .? And where could I read more on it? It
sounds interesting. What is the effect?

stevemills on sun 15 jun 97

Hi Debi,
A few years back we had a lad working with us who had done some Mocha
work with a previous employer and wanted to try it again. The original
recipe called for juice from well boiled tobbacco, this was mixed with
an oxide, traditionally (shh) manganese and dripped onto the side of a
freshly slipped pot where it "grew" tree forms. In the course of his
experiments with other semi-acidic liquids he found that "live" cider
vinigar which we already used in the reclaim process worked just as well
if not better. I think he found that other oxides didn't work as well as
manganese for this process, on the few occasions I do this I still use
it. I must admit I haven't tried other oxides for a long time, so
perhaps I should. The only reference I have found on this so far is in
Hamer & Hamer's Dictionary under Mocha.
Steve.
In message , Debi Beck writes
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>I use cider vinegar
>>instead of the tobacco juice trick on Mocha ware.
>Steve, What's this about. . .? And where could I read more on it? It
>sounds interesting. What is the effect?
>

--
Steve Mills
@Bath Potters Supplies
Dorset Close
Bath
BA2 3RF
UK
Tel:(44) (0)1225 337046
Fax:(44) (0)1225 462712

the cat lady on sun 15 jun 97

At 11:31 AM 6/15/97 EDT, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>
>Hi Debi,
>A few years back we had a lad working with us who had done some Mocha
>work with a previous employer and wanted to try it again. The original
>recipe called for juice from well boiled tobbacco, this was mixed with
>an oxide, traditionally (shh) manganese and dripped onto the side of a
>freshly slipped pot where it "grew" tree forms. In the course of his
>experiments with other semi-acidic liquids he found that "live" cider
>vinigar which we already used in the reclaim process worked just as well
>if not better. I think he found that other oxides didn't work as well as
>manganese for this process, on the few occasions I do this I still use
>it. I must admit I haven't tried other oxides for a long time, so
>perhaps I should. The only reference I have found on this so far is in
>Hamer & Hamer's Dictionary under Mocha.


Steve:

I use cobalt ox and it works fine (as do stains, BTW).

One note of caution - don't glaze over the design. It *will*
diffuse into the glaze.

Have fun!

sam - alias the cat lady
Melbourne, Ontario, CANADA
http://www.geocities.com/paris/3110
scuttell@wwdc.com

The more people I meet, the more I like my pets.......

FRANK GAYDOS on sun 31 may 98

Dear Clayarters,
I remember buying the Fran/Don Lead Test Kit about ten years ago. (Some
of my students were using Duncan glazes and I wanted to be sure no lead
was being given off.) I remember the process as follows: Pour vinegar
into the small test form for twenty-four hours just like it has been
discussed on the List, but, the next step involved adding some drops of
a liquid into the vinegar which would turn the liquid brown in the
presence of lead. I believe the liquid in question was Potassium
Sulfide. My questions are:
Is it necessary to put the Pot.Sulfide into the vinegar to realize you
have glaze that is acid weak?
Can I also use Sodium Sulfide to do the same thing?
Is it only lead that is being leached out of the glaze or just 'some
heavy metal' and I have a problem?
Does it make a difference if the Sulfide is 1/2% or 1%?

I realize that the Sulfides are poison and should be handled with care.

Any chemistry gurus out there? TIA
--
Frank Gaydos
510 Gerritt St.
Philadelphia,Pa.19147-5821 USA
fgaydos@erols.com

Janet H Walker on sun 14 jun 98

Vinegar is a flocculant. (Read in Hamer or other technical sources
about what that means.) It thickens up a mixture with clay in it.
When you make a slip by mixing vinegar into dry powdered clay, it is
a different kind of slip than the one you make with water. The clay
doesn't shrink as much as the vinegar dries.

In my experience, this may or may not be a good thing. If you have
a piece that is cracking as it dries, you can clear out the crack
with a knife or tool and then "spackle" it full of vinegar slip.
Keep adding and compressing that and your crack will not come back
after the piece is finally dry.

If, however, you use vinegar in place of slip when you are constructing
handbuilt things, it might or might not work. I have several big pieces
in my bone pile to remind me "don't do that". I constructed a piece
using vinegar and my usual constrcution techniques. The piece cam
apart along the seams in the glaze firing. Quite fascinating really.
This particular clay doesn't wet easily and so i think that the vinegar
just didn't do a good enough job of getting a homogeneous blend along
the seam.

So the answer is "it depends". By all means, have fun.
Jan Walker
Cambridge MA USA

John K. Dellow on mon 15 jun 98

> Vinegar acts as a wetting agent, i.e.it assists water to penertrate depper
> into the moleacular structure of the clay. Hence adding vinegar to the water
> when makeing up a clay body. I use a 10% vinegar & and water mix ,and drip
> into the feed hopper of my pug if the clay is a little stiff.

Jacka

Don Jones on mon 15 jun 98

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Vinegar is a flocculant. (Read in Hamer or other technical sources
>about what that means.) It thickens up a mixture with clay in it.
>When you make a slip by mixing vinegar into dry powdered clay, it is
>a different kind of slip than the one you make with water. The clay
>doesn't shrink as much as the vinegar dries.
>

The real magic with vinegar is theacid. Masons and cement workers use it
as a subsitute for muriatic acid as a binder for applying new cement to old.


Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
:-) implied in all messages and replies
http://highfiber.com/~claysky

Philip Schroeder on tue 16 jun 98

Perhaps it is the right time to resubmitt my previously posted poem;

I mix my slip with vinegar,
I've done it all my life,
It makes the slip smell funny
but it sticks my handles nice!

Or, maybe it's not the right time.
Phil in Chicago

iandol on fri 5 jan 01

I think there is a degree of folk lore relating to the best vinegar to =
use. The supermarkets have gone mad in recent years.
But the basis is Acetic acid,or in the new lingo, ethanoic acid. The =
differences come from the residuals after fermentation.
Malt vinegar from beer, possibly maltose sugar.
Cider vinegar from apples, possibly malic acid and fructose.
White wine vinegar, possibly potassium tartrate which will behave as a =
flux above about 850 C
Red wine vinegar. As above plus tannin.
Balsamic vinegar, possibly wood resins which could act as a glue.
So those who wish to use this fixer have a wide choice for =
experimentation.
Ivor. Redhill, South Australia

Richard Jeffery on fri 5 jan 01

Look - I know I put balsamic vinegar on fish and chips - but if you are
seriously going to use it on clay come and see me in Bournemouth - I'll show
you want it should be used for....

Richard


that's Bournemouth uk, before you reach for the reply button....


-----Original Message-----
From: Ceramic Arts Discussion List [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG]On
Behalf Of iandol
Sent: 05 January 2001 05:40
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Vinegar


I think there is a degree of folk lore relating to the best vinegar to use.
The supermarkets have gone mad in recent years.
But the basis is Acetic acid,or in the new lingo, ethanoic acid. The
differences come from the residuals after fermentation.
Malt vinegar from beer, possibly maltose sugar.
Cider vinegar from apples, possibly malic acid and fructose.
White wine vinegar, possibly potassium tartrate which will behave as a flux
above about 850 C
Red wine vinegar. As above plus tannin.
Balsamic vinegar, possibly wood resins which could act as a glue.
So those who wish to use this fixer have a wide choice for experimentation.
Ivor. Redhill, South Australia

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Ron Collins on fri 5 jan 01

Back in my wine-making days, before moving here, as I was reading about
wine, vinegar and the little yeasties, did you know that you can make
stronger vinegar, (rather than having to shop around andfind it,) for
cucumbers, etc by freezing the vinegar for a while and taking off the frozen
water that freezes first on top...don't use it myself for ceramic work, and
don't know if this helps anyone, but you may have a better, more macho
vinegar around your cocina. Melinda

patrick conrey on fri 5 jan 01

Did anyone ever put vinegar in their glaze mix? We have been adding
about a qt. per 5 gal. batch. When you ad it the glaze "cooks" and it
seems to help in creating a smooth application of the glaze!

Laura Freedman on sat 6 jan 01

I think the hot New Mexico climate has cooked your brain. All kidding
aside is it because you have alkaline water? Glad to hear you are moving
back east.
Laura



>Did anyone ever put vinegar in their glaze mix? We have been adding
>about a qt. per 5 gal. batch. When you ad it the glaze "cooks" and it
>seems to help in creating a smooth application of the glaze!
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>melpots@pclink.com.

Ron Roy on sat 6 jan 01

Adding vinegar to glaze or slip flocculates them - a quick fix if you need
to thicken a glaze or slip fast. When added to clay to counteract
deflocculation it works but the smell is soon so bad not many are willing
to put up with it.

RR

>Did anyone ever put vinegar in their glaze mix? We have been adding
>about a qt. per 5 gal. batch. When you ad it the glaze "cooks" and it
>seems to help in creating a smooth application of the glaze!
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

Ron Roy
93 Pegasus Trail
Scarborough
Ontario, Canada
M1G 3N8
Evenings 416-439-2621
Fax 416-438-7849

Paul Taylor on sun 7 jan 01

Dear Patrick

I put some vinegar in my glaze to flocculate it when the running and drips
get too much and the stuff constantly settles in the bottom of the bucket.

However I get disastrous crawling because of the drying glaze shrinkage
if I over do it. On big pots I put up with the drips and for thick celadons
I dare not add vinegar at all.

I did think of getting a ph meter to get better control because I noticed
that the amount of vinegar can be critical but in the end I am too broke and
or too lazy to chase one up. It gets a little complicated so I just rely on
guess work after ten years or so using a splash I just manage.


Regards from Paul Taylor
http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery

> From: patrick conrey
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:55:34 -0700
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Vinegar
>
> Did anyone ever put vinegar in their glaze mix? We have been adding
> about a qt. per 5 gal. batch. When you ad it the glaze "cooks" and it
> seems to help in creating a smooth application of the glaze!
>
> _____________________________________________________________________________

Jonathan Kaplan on sun 7 jan 01

>
>I put some vinegar in my glaze to flocculate it when the running and drips
>get too much and the stuff constantly settles in the bottom of the bucket.

You might be better off to add a few (read a FEW) drops of Darvan 811. Once
you set the specific gravity of the glaze, you can easily manipulate the
poise with Darvan.

Jonathan

Jonathan Kaplan
Ceramic Design GroupLTD/Production Services
PO Box 775112
Steamboat Springs, CO 80477
(970) 879-9139 voice and fax
http://www.sni.net/ceramicdesign

UPS: 1280 13th St. Unit 13
Steamboat Springs, CO 80487

Jim Mason on mon 8 jan 01

Dear Paul,

"I did think of getting a ph meter to get better control because I noticed
that the amount of vinegar can be critical but in the end I am too broke and
or too lazy to chase one up."

If you think pH is fairly critical (and I see no reason to beleive that it
isn't) you may want to try some pH paper as a less expensive alternative.

Best regards,
Jim Mason
Gibsonville, NC

Chris Schafale on mon 8 jan 01

Paul,

I have gotten pH test strips from a science supply company that
give a very precise reading across the whole pH range, and work
fine with glazes.

Chris

> Dear Jim
>
> I tried Litmus paper but it seems that the amount of water in the solution
> acts as a buffer and I could not get a reading . Can You get PH paper that
> is more sensitive and acts within a more restrictive range or sensitive
> enough to react even in solution with water?
>
> If so what can you recommend.
>
>
> Regards from Paul Taylor
> http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery
>
> > From: Jim Mason
> > Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:42:08 EST
> > To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Vinegar
> >
> > Dear Paul,
> >
> > If you think pH is fairly critical (and I see no reason to beleive that it
> > isn't) you may want to try some pH paper as a less expensive alternative.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Jim Mason
> > Gibsonville, NC
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>


Light One Candle Pottery
Fuquay-Varina, North Carolina, USA
(south of Raleigh)
candle@intrex.net
http://www.lightonecandle.com

Paul Taylor on mon 8 jan 01

Dear Jim

I tried Litmus paper but it seems that the amount of water in the solution
acts as a buffer and I could not get a reading . Can You get PH paper that
is more sensitive and acts within a more restrictive range or sensitive
enough to react even in solution with water?

If so what can you recommend.


Regards from Paul Taylor
http://www.anu.ie/westportpottery

> From: Jim Mason
> Reply-To: Ceramic Arts Discussion List
> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 09:42:08 EST
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Subject: Re: Vinegar
>
> Dear Paul,
>
> If you think pH is fairly critical (and I see no reason to beleive that it
> isn't) you may want to try some pH paper as a less expensive alternative.
>
> Best regards,
> Jim Mason
> Gibsonville, NC

Jim Mason on tue 9 jan 01

In a message dated Mon, 8 Jan 2001 6:27:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Paul
Taylor writes:

<< Dear Jim

I tried Litmus paper but it seems that the amount of water in the solution
acts as a buffer and I could not get a reading . Can You get PH paper that
is more sensitive and acts within a more restrictive range or sensitive
enough to react even in solution with water?

If so what can you recommend.>>

Dear Paul,

There are probably several buffering agents in the mix, not the least of
which is the vinegar (acetic acid) itself. They just keep the pH from
swinging wildly with the addition of small amounts of acid or alkali.

There are paper strips available with good accuracy over relatively narrow pH
ranges. One such set consists of six different rolls of paper covering pH
0-14. The set lists for $35.25 from Fisher Scientific. Their web site is
www.fishersci.com. Unless the pH is very critical, these should be accurate
enough for the purpose.

To make the reading easier, I would suggest that you let the solid material
settle out a bit and test the clear fluid. The pH should be the same
throughout the aqueous suspension.

If you like, you can contact me off line and send me a couple of samples (a
good one and a bad one). I'll test them to see what the pH difference is.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Jim Mason
Gibsonville, NC

Jim Mason on wed 10 jan 01

In a message dated Mon, 8 Jan 2001=A0 6:27:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Paul=
=20
Taylor writes:

<< Dear Jim

=A0 I tried Litmus paper but it seems that the amount of water in the soluti=
on
acts as a buffer and I could not get a reading. Can You get pH paper that
is more sensitive and acts within a more restrictive range or sensitive
enough to react even in solution with water?

If so what can you recommend.>>

Dear Paul,

There are probably several buffering agents in the mix, not the least of=20
which is the vinegar (acetic acid) itself. A compound that is a "buffering=20
agent" retards the pH swing with the addition of acid or alkali.=20

There are paper strips available with decent accuracy (to about 0.5 pH unit)=
=20
over relatively narrow pH ranges. One such set consists of six different=20
rolls of paper covering pH 0-14. The set lists for $35.25 from Fisher=20
Scientific. Their web site is www.fishersci.com. Unless the pH is very=20
critical, these should be accurate enough for the purpose.

To make the reading easier, I would suggest that you let the solid material=20
settle out a bit and test the clear fluid. The pH should be the same=20
throughout the aqueous suspension.

If you like, you can contact me off line and send me a couple of samples (a=20
good one and a bad one). I'll test them to see what the pH difference is.

Hope this helps.

(sorry this is so late; this is the third try)

Best regards,
Jim Mason
Gibsonville, NC

Craig Dunn Clark on tue 3 jul 01

My read is that this is an acid/base "neutralization" reaction. I must
admit that I am relying on a memory from freshman chemistry that was more
years ago than I really like to admit.
My wife, Ruth, chemistry teacher extraordinaire, just walked into the
room,is standing behind me and laughing as I type this and is saying that
she'll make certain that I get things right.
Whenever an acid (vinegar) and a base (the clay body in this case) are
combined there will be a subsequent chemical reaction that will result in
the clay either being less alkaline, or becoming acidic. I am told, by my
spousal authority, that the reaction results in a salt (that is most likely
soluable) and water.
In other words a new substance has been formed. This in turn may be the
explanation for why the addition of vinegar improves the bonding of a handle
to a pot.

Craig Dunn Clark
619 East 11 1/2 st
Houston, Texas 77008
(713)861-2083
mudman@hal-pc.org


----- Original Message -----
From: "mudlark"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Vinegar


> I think it's the water that your changing. Clay is alkaline viniger makes
the
> water acid. Clay is attracted to the water water is attracted to the clay.
Many
> times when clay is mixed with alkalin water (most water out of the tap is
slightly
> alkaline) it is flabby when worked and will seem too stiff and become
softer as it
> is wedged.
>
> Margaret Barlow wrote:
>
> > >Can someone please explain to me how and why vinegar does what it does
to
> > >clay, and how to use it properly?
> >
> > If you are talking about using vinegar to join handles etc, it is my
> > understanding that since vinegar is an acid and therefore a flocculant,
it
> > flocculates the clay , changing the charge on the clay particles and
causing
> > the particles to attract each other . By doing this it strengthens the
bond
> > of the handle to the pot.
> >
> > I have my vinegar in a little spray bottle, the kind hair spray comes
in,
> > and just spritz it on where the handle is to be joined and then scratch
the
> > clay a little, push on the handle and give the handle a little jiggle to
be
> > sure it is attached and you can actually feel it grab hold of the pot.
> > Voila!
> >
> > The strange part that took me the longest time to understand is that
> > deflocculated slip or Magic water, which is water with deflocculant in
it,
> > will also help handles adhere but it does so for a different reason.
> >
> > Margaret
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> > Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> > You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> > settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>
> --
> Clyde Tullis
> Mudlark Pottery
> 320 G Street
> Salida, CO 81201
> 719-539-1299
> mudlark@chaffee.net
> http://www.mudlarkpottery.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
__
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots@pclink.com.
>

Cathi Newlin on tue 10 jul 01

Can someone please explain to me how and why vinegar does what it does to
clay, and how to use it properly?

On another, more subjective note...
I've been handbuilding some plates lately. They are becoming less and less
functional, both in form and in finish. Is there any conventional thought
on "functionless" functional pottery?

Cathi Newlin - boxer411@grm.net
North Mo Boxer Rescue - (660) 382-5451
Midwest Boxer Rescuers - http://rescue.stinkbalm.com/mwbr>

Jean Cappadonna Nichols on wed 11 jul 01

Cathi,
Functionless, functional pottery is called "sculpture"! ...Sorry, couldn't
resist!

Jean

Margaret Barlow on wed 11 jul 01

>Can someone please explain to me how and why vinegar does what it does to
>clay, and how to use it properly?


If you are talking about using vinegar to join handles etc, it is my
understanding that since vinegar is an acid and therefore a flocculant, it
flocculates the clay , changing the charge on the clay particles and causing
the particles to attract each other . By doing this it strengthens the bond
of the handle to the pot.

I have my vinegar in a little spray bottle, the kind hair spray comes in,
and just spritz it on where the handle is to be joined and then scratch the
clay a little, push on the handle and give the handle a little jiggle to be
sure it is attached and you can actually feel it grab hold of the pot.
Voila!

The strange part that took me the longest time to understand is that
deflocculated slip or Magic water, which is water with deflocculant in it,
will also help handles adhere but it does so for a different reason.

Margaret

mudlark on wed 11 jul 01

I think it's the water that your changing. Clay is alkaline viniger makes the
water acid. Clay is attracted to the water water is attracted to the clay Many
times when clay is mixed with alkalin water (most water out of the tap is slightly
alkaline) it is flabby when worked and will seem too stiff and become softer as it
is wedged.

Margaret Barlow wrote:

> >Can someone please explain to me how and why vinegar does what it does to
> >clay, and how to use it properly?
>
> If you are talking about using vinegar to join handles etc, it is my
> understanding that since vinegar is an acid and therefore a flocculant, it
> flocculates the clay , changing the charge on the clay particles and causing
> the particles to attract each other . By doing this it strengthens the bond
> of the handle to the pot.
>
> I have my vinegar in a little spray bottle, the kind hair spray comes in,
> and just spritz it on where the handle is to be joined and then scratch the
> clay a little, push on the handle and give the handle a little jiggle to be
> sure it is attached and you can actually feel it grab hold of the pot.
> Voila!
>
> The strange part that took me the longest time to understand is that
> deflocculated slip or Magic water, which is water with deflocculant in it,
> will also help handles adhere but it does so for a different reason.
>
> Margaret
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.

--
Clyde Tullis
Mudlark Pottery
320 G Street
Salida, CO 81201
719-539-1299
mudlark@chaffee.net
http://www.mudlarkpottery.com

Margaret Barlow on thu 12 jul 01

>I think it's the water that your changing. Clay is alkaline viniger makes
the
>water acid. Clay is attracted to the water water is attracted to the clay.


Sure the vinegar changes the water and makes it more acidic but it is the
action of that acid on the clay particles that increases their attraction to
each other . The clay particles are flat haxagonal crystals, the acidic
flocculant, vinegar, changes the charge so that the positive edges are
attracted to the negative centre, forming the 'card-house' structure.

All this, the information on flocculation, is well documented in Hamer's
Dictionary, and it makes sense to me that this is why vinegar helps bond
the handle to the pot, because the attraction of the clay particles to each
other is increased due to the effects of flocculation.

Margaret

iandol on fri 13 jul 01

Dear Craig Dunn Clark,=20

You say case) are combined there will be a subsequent chemical reaction that =
will result in the clay either being less alkaline, or becoming =
acidic.>.

Well, I suppose when dealing with simple chemicals such as hydrochloric =
acid and sodium carbonate what you say holds true, following that school =
rubric of "Acid plus Base equals Salt plus Water". However, I was always =
under the allusion that clay was better called Alumino-di-silicic acid.=20

Were the reaction suggested by your spouse to occur the result would be =
an acetate. These, I believe are water soluble. Perhaps she might think =
about the effect adding vinegar ( aka acetic acid ) might have on the =
sodium ions which deflocculate clay and the effect of the hydrogen ions =
which are released into the plastic clay.

Best regards,

Ivor

Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 8 feb 08

Dear Friends,
From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining of =
pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a deflocculant.
I may be wrong, but I have never seen a discussion of the properties of =
this fluid in any of the popular literature for potters that fully =
describe its properties.=20
I would suggest that once the water has evaporated from vinegar the =
substance remains in the clay in the fluid state except when the =
temperature declines below about sixteen and a half degrees Celsius when =
it solidifies ( possibly in the glassy state).
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.

Edouard Bastarache Inc. on fri 8 feb 08

Donna,

years ago I used vinegar to thicken glazes.

Gis la revido,
(A la revoyure)

Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto

Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/20321056/
http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/livres.htm
http://www.pshcanada.com/Toxicology.htm
http://myblogsmesblogs.blogspot.com/

Jeanette Harris on fri 8 feb 08

>Dear Friends,
>>From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining
>>of pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a
>>deflocculant.
>I may be wrong, but I have never seen a discussion of the properties
>of this fluid in any of the popular literature for potters that
>fully describe its properties.

I'm guessing that vinegar, because of the acidity, has an effect on
the molecular electrical charges in the clay and platelets causing
them to become more adherent and join easily. The acidity is easily
penetrates the clay via the liquid quality of water/vinegar
composition and when it dries, the clay particles remain.

Cheers,
Jeanette

--
http://jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com/

http://www.washingtonpotters.org/members/Jeanette_Harris/wpa_jeanette_harris.htm

Jeanette Harris
Washingzona

Luke Nealey on fri 8 feb 08

Dear Ivor Lewis,

Maybe as the water leaves the vinegar solution the increase in vapor
pressure, viscosity and surface tension affect the both the clay/liquid
interface and the evaporation rate.

Best regards,
Luke Nealey
Rankin Co, MS


On 2/8/08, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
> From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining of
> pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a deflocculant.
> I may be wrong, but I have never seen a discussion of the properties of
> this fluid in any of the popular literature for potters that fully describe
> its properties.
> I would suggest that once the water has evaporated from vinegar the
> substance remains in the clay in the fluid state except when the temperature
> declines below about sixteen and a half degrees Celsius when it solidifies (
> possibly in the glassy state).
> Best regards,
> Ivor Lewis.
> Redhill,
> South Australia.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>

Steve Slatin on fri 8 feb 08

Ivor --

Vinegar, left uncovered at room temperature, will evaporate.
I haven't tested for how long it takes to do so compared to
water, but given the tendency of vinegar to leave an aroma
behind itself, we can fairly assume that it evaporates at a
similar rate -- at least within the same order of magnitude
in time. We also know that It boils at a temp just a little
higher than pure water.

Is there any reason to suppose that it doesn't evaporate from
clay?

Steve Slatin
Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
Dear Friends,
From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining of pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a deflocculant.
I may be wrong, but I have never seen a discussion of the properties of this fluid in any of the popular literature for potters that fully describe its properties.
I would suggest that once the water has evaporated from vinegar the substance remains in the clay in the fluid state except when the temperature declines below about sixteen and a half degrees Celsius when it solidifies ( possibly in the glassy state).
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.

Steve Slatin --

History teaches us that there have been but few infringements of personal liberty by the state which have not been justified ...
in the name of righteousness and the public good, and few which
have not been directed ... at politically helpless minorities.
-- Harlan Fiske Stone

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Charles Durfor on fri 8 feb 08

From a chemists perspective we know that vinegar chelates calcium and other cations from bone. (Hence, the wiggly bone trick after a few days in vinegar). I wonder what role that might have in altering the structure of pottery.....

C. Durfor

>From:
>Date: 2008/02/08 Fri AM 08:07:45 CST
>To: Clayart
>Subject: Re: Re: Vinegar

>
>>From: Luke Nealey
>>Date: 2008/02/08 Fri AM 08:07:45 CST
>>To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
>>Subject: Re: Vinegar
>
>>Dear Ivor Lewis,
>>
>>Maybe as the water leaves the vinegar solution the increase in vapor
>>pressure, viscosity and surface tension affect the both the clay/liquid
>>interface and the evaporation rate.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Luke Nealey
>>Rankin Co, MS
>>
>>
>>On 2/8/08, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Friends,
>>> From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining of
>>> pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a deflocculant.
>>> I may be wrong, but I have never seen a discussion of the properties of
>>> this fluid in any of the popular literature for potters that fully describe
>>> its properties.
>>> I would suggest that once the water has evaporated from vinegar the
>>> substance remains in the clay in the fluid state except when the temperature
>>> declines below about sixteen and a half degrees Celsius when it solidifies (
>>> possibly in the glassy state).
>>> Best regards,
>>> Ivor Lewis.
>>> Redhill,
>>> South Australia.
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________________________
>>> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>>
>>> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>>> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
>>> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>>>
>>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>>> melpots2@visi.com
>>>
>>
>>______________________________________________________________________________
>>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>>
>>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com

Randall Moody on fri 8 feb 08

I was thinking along the same lines as this or an effect on the
polarity of the clay particles. Either that or it is magic.

Randall in Atlanta

On Feb 8, 2008 10:51 AM, Charles Durfor wrote:
> From a chemists perspective we know that vinegar chelates calcium and other cations from bone. (Hence, the wiggly bone trick after a few days in vinegar). I wonder what role that might have in altering the structure of pottery.....
>
> C. Durfor

Maggie Jones on fri 8 feb 08

its the ph factor.....what is that stuff used in pools? begins with M.
I saw 2 tblspns of it thrown into a mixer and the clay visibly gelled for
a moment and mixed like crazy.

maggie


On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 17:39:43 -0500 Randall Moody
writes:
> I was thinking along the same lines as this or an effect on the
> polarity of the clay particles. Either that or it is magic.
>
> Randall in Atlanta
>
> On Feb 8, 2008 10:51 AM, Charles Durfor
> wrote:
> > From a chemists perspective we know that vinegar chelates calcium
> and other cations from bone. (Hence, the wiggly bone trick after a
> few days in vinegar). I wonder what role that might have in
> altering the structure of pottery.....
> >
> > C. Durfor
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change
> your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>

vpitelka on fri 8 feb 08

Ivor Lewis wrote:
"From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining of
pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a deflocculant."

Ivor -
Vinegar is a flocculant - it's acidic, so it makes the particles attract one
another, aiding in plasticity if there is any residual alkalinity in the
clay, either from original mixing or from release of soluble sodium from
fluxes. Vinegar does seem to dissipate with time, whereas Epsom salts
flocculate without disappearing.
- Vince


Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka

Donna Kat on fri 8 feb 08

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:37:34 +1030, Ivor and Olive Lewis
wrote:

>Dear Friends,
>From time to time vinegar is recommended as a fluid for the joining of
pottery parts. It works but do we know why? Yes, it is a deflocculant.
>I may be wrong, but I have never seen a discussion of the properties of
this fluid in any of the popular literature for potters that fully
describe its properties.
>I would suggest that once the water has evaporated from vinegar the
substance remains in the clay in the fluid state except when the
temperature declines below about sixteen and a half degrees Celsius when
it solidifies ( possibly in the glassy state).
>Best regards,
>Ivor Lewis.
>Redhill,
>South Australia.
>
Curious - making up new clays or recycling, it is often suggested adding a
cup of vinegar for 'aging'. I would think you would want your clay
flocculated rather than deflocculated so that the ingredients were mixed
and that you didn't get layered settling. Does that not happen when you
deflocculate? That was not rhetorical. It is a real question. Donna

Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 9 feb 08

Dear Steve Slatin,=20

IF there is an aroma remaining after the liquid has evaporated then =
there is a residue of Acetic Acid on the surface. If the temperature is =
below 16.7 deg C then it will be in the solid state. The partial =
pressure at this temperature is extremely low so the rate of sublimation =
will be insignificant, though enough to be detected by a sharp nose.

Since the concentration of Acetic acid is about 3% in culinary vinegar =
there will not be much on the surface after the water has evaporated. =
Possibly sufficient to interact with blue litmus paper.

Thanks for responding.

Best regards,

Ivor.





Ivor --

Vinegar, left uncovered at room temperature, will evaporate.
I haven't tested for how long it takes to do so compared to
water, but given the tendency of vinegar to leave an aroma
behind itself, we can fairly assume that it evaporates at a
similar rate -- at least within the same order of magnitude
in time. We also know that It boils at a temp just a little
higher than pure water.

Is there any reason to suppose that it doesn't evaporate from
clay?

Steve Slatin on sat 9 feb 08

Vapor pressure of acetic acid at 20 degrees C is about 12 mmhg.
Vapor pressure of water at 20 degrees C is 17.5 mmhg. Granted
the water has a higher VP (& presumably will evaporate more
rapidly) but it's not like an order of magnitude in difference. If
the vinegar that might be used in clay remained in a solid form
at normal temps, we'd see the white crystals on the surface to
which the vinegar was applied. Personally, I've never seen it,
though I do use vinegar from time to time on clay.

-- Steve Slatin

Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
Dear Steve Slatin,

IF there is an aroma remaining after the liquid has evaporated then there is a residue of Acetic Acid on the surface. If the temperature is below 16.7 deg C then it will be in the solid state. The partial pressure at this temperature is extremely low so the rate of sublimation will be insignificant, though enough to be detected by a sharp nose.

Since the concentration of Acetic acid is about 3% in culinary vinegar there will not be much on the surface after the water has evaporated. Possibly sufficient to interact with blue litmus paper.

Thanks for responding.

Best regards,

Ivor.





Ivor --

Vinegar, left uncovered at room temperature, will evaporate.
I haven't tested for how long it takes to do so compared to
water, but given the tendency of vinegar to leave an aroma
behind itself, we can fairly assume that it evaporates at a
similar rate -- at least within the same order of magnitude
in time. We also know that It boils at a temp just a little
higher than pure water.

Is there any reason to suppose that it doesn't evaporate from
clay?

______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/

Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com



Steve Slatin --

History teaches us that there have been but few infringements of personal liberty by the state which have not been justified ...
in the name of righteousness and the public good, and few which
have not been directed ... at politically helpless minorities.
-- Harlan Fiske Stone

---------------------------------
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Lois Ruben Aronow on sat 9 feb 08

this makes my head hurt. Is it OK if I want to believe it is just magic?

...Lo
a firm believer in the miracle of vinegar. And the Easter Bunny.


>
> Vapor pressure of acetic acid at 20 degrees C is about 12 mmhg.
> Vapor pressure of water at 20 degrees C is 17.5 mmhg. Granted
> the water has a higher VP (& presumably will evaporate more
> rapidly) but it's not like an order of magnitude in difference. If
> the vinegar that might be used in clay remained in a solid form
> at normal temps, we'd see the white crystals on the surface to
> which the vinegar was applied. Personally, I've never seen it,
> though I do use vinegar from time to time on clay.
>

Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 10 feb 08

Dear Steve Slatin,=20

I would agree that the partial pressures of the two fluids are of the =
same order of magnitude but I think you will find if you check that =
anhydrous (Glacial) Acetic Acid does not crystallise when it solidifies =
(16.8 deg C) but has a glass structure.

There seems to be some doubt as to the influence dilute acetic acid has =
on a clay-water system. In his "Illustrated Dictionary of Practical =
Pottery" Robert Fournier claims it to be a "Deflocculant". Y. H. Cuff =
and Susan Peterson in their books claim it causes flocculation. This may =
be due to the influence of Frank Hamer who writes "Acidic solutions, =
like vinegar, are used to flocculate slips.".

Is it possible it can do both?

Best regards,

Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.

Ivor and Olive Lewis on sun 14 sep 08

Well friends,
I have been throwing the reclaimed Walker's PB 103 and 101. Tested it
out last weekend using the old sausage round the finger. There were no
signs of fissuring so this week I have thrown some cooking pots.
Nothing fancy, just cylinders slightly wider than they are high with
the bottom of the wall radiused into a flat base. Medium ones form
about 3 lbs of clay and small ones from a pound and a half.
You may remember I used crushed dried trimmings from way back and
soaked them in de-ionised water to which I had added vinegar in the
proportions of four to on so the acetic acid concentration was about
one percent.
This has become a very plastic clay, centres without effort, becomes
very slippery once it gets wet and tends to stay that way without
continually adding more lubricant.
Wish I could have started with clay like this back in 1958 when I
built my first wheel.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.

Steve Mills on sun 14 sep 08

Dear Ivor,

Welcome to the Club.

Steve
Bath
UK



--- On Sun, 9/14/08, Ivor and Olive Lewis wrote:
From: Ivor and Olive Lewis
Subject: Vinegar
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 6:49 AM

Well friends,
I have been throwing the reclaimed Walker's PB 103 and 101. Tested it
out last weekend using the old sausage round the finger. There were no
signs of fissuring so this week I have thrown some cooking pots.
Nothing fancy, just cylinders slightly wider than they are high with
the bottom of the wall radiused into a flat base. Medium ones form
about 3 lbs of clay and small ones from a pound and a half.
You may remember I used crushed dried trimmings from way back and
soaked them in de-ionised water to which I had added vinegar in the
proportions of four to on so the acetic acid concentration was about
one percent.
This has become a very plastic clay, centres without effort, becomes
very slippery once it gets wet and tends to stay that way without
continually adding more lubricant.
Wish I could have started with clay like this back in 1958 when I
built my first wheel.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.

ann@annbclay.com on sun 21 feb 10

So it seems you guys are going to keep this thread going all year. Can
you keep this going for a year or will your obsession wane?

(Cue music theme from Star Trek)

WHO WILL GET THE LAST WORD? (or salad recipe?) These are the questions
of the clayart list serve consciousness, to go where no potter has gone
(or cared to go) before...

Vince Pitelka on mon 22 feb 10

What with being bored with this subject, I decided to put my money where my
hand is and see what happens when one attempts salad-flocculation and
self-flocculation simultaneously. Now I have vinegar and olive oil
splattered all over the kitchen . . .

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka

James Freeman on mon 22 feb 10

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:04 PM, ann@annbclay.com wrote=
:

So it seems you guys are going to keep this thread going all year. Can
> you keep this going for a year or will your obsession wane?
>
> (Cue music theme from Star Trek)
>
> WHO WILL GET THE LAST WORD? (or salad recipe?) These are the questions
> of the clayart list serve consciousness, to go where no potter has gone
> (or cared to go) before...
>




Hi, Ann...

The last word on vinegar and clay was had, by my recollection, by Marian
several days ago, wherein she treated us to her ligand hypothesis.

The last word on salad recipes is thus far Vince's, posted yesterday, in
which he declared his boredom with the topic, and that he had moved on to
other things. Oh, and that clayart wasn't ready for the real science of
salad making nor self-flocculation.

The last word on this entire topic seems to be yours. Or perhaps Benjamin
Franklin's:

"Knowing only what is necessary makes life dull, and marks the regression o=
f
learning."

All the best.

...James

James Freeman

"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by way of advice. I should
not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed."
-Michel de Montaigne

http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesfreemanstudio/
http://www.jamesfreemanstudio.com/clayart/

Edouard Bastarache on mon 22 feb 10

Hum !

maybe Clayart should post my jokes instead
of vinegar salad recipes !!!
Hehehehehehe.

Gis,

Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto (Lernu-Paris)

Sorel-Tracy
Quebec

http://edouardbastarache.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://cerampeintures.blogspot.com/
http://albertpaintings.blogspot.com/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/smart2000/index.htm





----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 11:04 PM
Subject: vinegar


> So it seems you guys are going to keep this thread going all year. Can
> you keep this going for a year or will your obsession wane?
>
> (Cue music theme from Star Trek)
>
> WHO WILL GET THE LAST WORD? (or salad recipe?) These are the questions
> of the clayart list serve consciousness, to go where no potter has gone
> (or cared to go) before...
>

David Woof on tue 23 feb 10

Vince=3D2C thanks for the imagery and a hearty chuckle.

=3D20

7a. Re: vinegar
Posted by: "Vince Pitelka" vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET=3D20
Date: Tue Feb 23=3D2C 2010 4:57 am ((PST))
=3D20
What with being bored with this subject=3D2C I decided to put my money wher=
e =3D
my
hand is and see what happens when one attempts salad-flocculation and
self-flocculation simultaneously. Now I have vinegar and olive oil
splattered all over the kitchen . . .
=3D20
Oh well=3D2C it was fun while it lasted.
- Vince
=3D20
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net=3D3B wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
=3D20
=3D20

=3D20



=3D20
_________________________________________________________________
Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/=3D

Rimas VisGirda on wed 17 mar 10

I have found vinegar is also great for sunburn. After a day in the Spring s=
un, while I'm still baby talc white from winter, a liberal application is s=
oothing and the red is usually gone the following day. -Rimas

Neon-Cat on mon 24 jan 11

Flocculation is not responsible for the good effects clay workers
notice when vinegar is used as an additive to clay bodies or slurries.
(This is in response to Dinah Snipes Steveni=3D92s email of Jan 23, 2011
=3D93Top 10 + Clay Repair Tip=3D94.)

Vinegar (~5% acetic acid, CH3COOH) is not going to dissociate
appreciably or at all at the pH on the surface of the unfired clay
body or clay body crack/fracture (clay is normally on the acid side of
pH on the surface of what amounts to our pH neutral clay body =3D96 acetic
acid dissociates best at higher pH). It is a small, weak organic acid
anyway, quite different in behavior from strong mineral acids. High
school chemistry and biology students are often given test questions
to ascertain just how well they understand acids; the Internet has
quite a few tutorials available that discuss the special
considerations of acetic acid because the difference between strong
and weak acid behavior often stumps beginners.

Acetic acid itself (the un-dissociated molecule) is not prone to
adsorption on clay. You will note that when used or studied as a metal
chelating agent, acetic acid is always discussed in terms of the
molecule itself, not an ion as one would get if acetic acid were to
dissociate to form H+ ions. By itself and in solution acetic acid, a
carboxylic acid, is strongly associated because of hydrogen bonding
between molecules. Acetic acid usually exists as dimers held together
by two hydrogen bonds. Should there be some dissociation of the acetic
acid molecules, this is not a problem because in our solid state clay
body the particles of clay, silica, feldspar, iron oxides and/or
hydroxides, other trace, and grog or temper are surrounded by
hydration layers and acetic acid cations or anions have a slim chance
of directly impacting the clay crystal agglomerates and other
particles anyway.

So what=3D92s happening? Why do clay workers use vinegar to enhance
forming, clay bodies, or to aid in crack repair?

Vinegar can become involved in a type of bond called a ligand bond. In
doing so it forms soluble metal-chelate complexes or involves itself
in ligand exchange with nearby water and interacts with hydrogen
bonding systems already present in the clay body so that we have a
ligand binding system that spreads as far as we have applied acetic
acid molecules. These near-instantaneously formed bonds are very
strong and account for the good effects some clay workers call
flocculation.

But alas, it would really be a mistake that might cause confusion or
lack of clarity down the road if we continue to refer to
ligand-binding or chelation or metal-complexation as flocculation.
These are entirely different phenomenon. Flocculation occurs in a
fluid system =3D96 in a clay body we have a solid solution or system, not
a fluid or a colloidal one. Clay particles have long since
agglomerated so that we don=3D92t think of them or visualize them as
single clay particles having an imbalance of charge needing to be
satisfied. Kaolin, our most common clay, never has much charge anyway.
Hydrogen splitting may occur, giving particle edges a slight negative
charge, but this is so easily satisfied by the mineral ions in plain
tap water or the minerals in the water portion of vinegar that it is
not of great concern.

So, vinegar works by connecting all particles in the clay body, not
just clay particles =3D96 and it does so through ligand-binding and ligand
exchange bridging between the individual clay body particles.
Fascinating, isn=3D92t it?

In fact, if we were to test clay for metals we might as a first step
use acetic acid or one of its relatives to extract the metals from the
clay. In this case we=3D92d call acetic acid a chelating agent or
complexing agent. A 0.5 M solution of acetic acid is enough when used
as a first step in sequential extraction procedures. The process also
removes organic material so samples will often be colored brownish.
For the metals (e.g. As, Cd, Cr, Cu, Fe, Pb, Mn, Ni, and Zn), we have,
just as if we daubed our clay body with vinegar, formed soluble
metal-chelate complexes (this may be why some patches may appear
somewhat discolored or texturally different =3D96 the vinegar has
concentrated the metals it=3D92s pulled from adjacent sides of the clay
body fracture and your patch material). Since the objective is to
remove metals from the clay and not bond clay body particles or
attempt to flocculate them, the clay is washed and the metals are
removed (or collected) along with the acetic acid =3D96 they are, if you
will imagine, the equivalent of being suspended in the acetic acid
solution (they are actually surrounded and isolated by a =3D91cage=3D92 of
acetic acid molecules so that they are no longer active in
charge-equalization processes nor contributing to charge imbalances).
This is metal desorption/dissolution and acetic acid is very good at
this. If acetic acid dissociated and flocculated clay particles this
very common, standard extraction procedure would not be possible.

Another weak acid, EDTA (ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid), a
relative of acetic acid, is used in a Mora poultice (first constructed
by an Italian building conservator named Mora) to extract stains from
limestone and marble. It does so by facilitating the dissolution of
calcium salts by complex formation. After the offending salts are
captured in the poultice, it is removed or allowed to fall off on its
own. EDTA is also now one of the chelating agents most often selected
for the first step in sequential metal extraction from clay or soils.

This is all common modern textbook material, from chemistry (general,
inorganic, organic, physical), biochemistry, biology, medical, dental,
environmental, soil science, and other related disciplines in
institutions of higher learning all around the world. On-line there is
an enormous volume of articles from many disciplines on acetic acid,
ligand binding, metal complexing, etc. Dictionaries are good for
definitions and as a basic starting point for further thought and
research. Way back in my education I was always taught that
dictionaries should never be used as a reference.

I hope you have found this explanation helpful.
This is my last post to the list for awhile =3D96 although I=3D92ve met a f=
ew
wonderful folks, there have been far too many bad memories over the
last three years for me to contend with at this creative period in my
life.

Marian Gooding
Neon-Cat
www.neon-cat.com

Dinah Snipes Steveni on tue 25 jan 11

Thanks Marion. Of course, I should have written ligand bonding instead of f=
locculation! :)

Dinah
http://www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
jd.steveni@comcast.net
Plein Air Washington
FB Dianthus Visual Arts Page
Blog: http://dianthusvisualarts.wordpress.com

Neon-Cat on tue 25 jan 11

You are of course free to write what you like. It was a fine stand alone ti=
p.

If I wrote that my most successful experiment with crack and fracture
repair was OM-4 ball clay terra sigillata with a few drops of Weldbond
adhesive (a few drops per 1/2 ounce or 15 ml of sig) would anyone
really wish to know the mechanism? Perhaps just knowing that it did
work would make someone in need happy. It knits clay right up in a
heartbeat and leaves no trace that a fracture ever existed.

Adding paper to the clay the pot was made from and making a patching
slurry of that is also pretty effective although traces of old mishaps
may remain. There are some good references on just how this works in
the literature of potters.

:>)

Marian


On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Dinah Snipes Steveni
wrote:
> Thanks Marion. Of course, I should have written ligand bonding instead of=
flocculation! :)
>
> Dinah
> http://www.dinahsnipessteveni.com
> jd.steveni@comcast.net
> Plein Air Washington
> FB Dianthus Visual Arts Page
> Blog: http://dianthusvisualarts.wordpress.com
>

Vince Pitelka on tue 25 jan 11

Dinah Snipes Steveni wrote:
"Thanks Marion. Of course, I should have written ligand bonding instead =3D
of flocculation!"

Just to cover all the bases, in the future I am going to refer to =3D
flocculigand bondulation. =3D20
- Vince

Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu=3D20
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka

ivor and olive lewis on wed 26 jan 11

<
notice when vinegar is used as an additive to clay bodies or slurries.>>

is an opinion given by Neon Cat in response to Dinah Snipes Steveni..



I find it difficult to comprehend the true cause of adhesion from
information given by Neon Cat.



I would suggest that the ability of vinegar to promote welding of dry clay
may be due to Deflocculation. Rather than acetic acid being responsible, I
would suggest it is the large volume of water (95-97 percent), partially
ionised under the influence of acetic acid, that makes this trick work.



Best regards,

Ivor Lewis,
REDHILL,
South Australia

marci Boskie's Mama =3D^..^=3D on wed 26 jan 11

> Vince Pitelka said:
>Just to cover all the bases, in the future I am going to refer to
>flocculigand bondulation.

OOOOH!!!!! KINKY !!! I love it when you talk dirty .ROFLMAO !
marci the chinapainter

David Woof on wed 26 jan 11

Gosh Vince=3D2C =3D20
flocculigand and bondulation sounds a lot like some of the 3 AM undergrad a=
=3D
ctivities at the regionally (in)famous Cellulite Beach on the Eau Claire. =
=3D
I don't remember seeing you there though=3D2C so we are on our own with in=
te=3D
rpretations......La dolche vita.......David
___________________________________
2.2. Re: Vinegar
Posted by: "Vince Pitelka" vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET=3D20
Date: Tue Jan 25=3D2C 2011 3:33 pm ((PST))

Dinah Snipes Steveni wrote:
"Thanks Marion. Of course=3D2C I should have written ligand bonding instead=
o=3D
f flocculation!"

Just to cover all the bases=3D2C in the future I am going to refer to flocc=
ul=3D
igand bondulation.=3D20
- Vince


=3D20



=3D

rickmahaffey@COMCAST.NET on thu 27 jan 11

I don't laugh about anything associated with vinegar. We have to have an MS=
DS for Vinegar now (acetic acid!!) in our studio.

YMMV,
Rick

David Woof on thu 27 jan 11

Neon=3D2C Cat=3D2C Marian=3D2C (who ever you are today!) you do add a splas=
h of y=3D
our particular color to our tapestry)
=3D20
I do find your information fascinating and now that you have been writing m=
=3D
ore for the everyman/woman potter rather than dukeing it out with the scien=
=3D
tists in insider terms.... I will miss you. When you had your back up and=
=3D
claws extended and I and several others wrote pointed reprimands to you=3D=
3B=3D
I held/hold no ill will toward you then or now and hope that you rejoin t=
=3D
he Clayart family dialogue when you are ready. =3D20
=3D20
You have much to offer and if you would refrain from vacillating between wh=
=3D
ining and out right aggression=3D2C reading your contributions are an infor=
ma=3D
tive pleasure. However I don't take issue with your personal issues. When=
=3D
you are writing from a good place=3D3B I read. When not=3D3B I delete!
=3D20
Be well=3D2C=3D20
David Woof
=3D20
_______________________________________________________________________
10.1. Vinegar
Posted by: "Neon-Cat" neoncat.marian@GMAIL.COM=3D20
Date: Mon Jan 24=3D2C 2011 3:51 pm ((PST))

Flocculation is not responsible for the good effects clay workers
notice when vinegar is used as an additive to clay bodies or slurries.
(This is in response to Dinah Snipes Steveni=3D92s email of Jan 23=3D2C 201=
1
=3D93Top 10 + Clay Repair Tip=3D94.)

Vinegar (~5% acetic acid=3D2C CH3COOH) is not going to dissociate
appreciably or at all at the pH on the surface of the unfired clay
body or clay body crack/fracture (clay is normally on the acid side of
pH on the surface of what amounts to our pH neutral clay body =3D96 acetic
acid dissociates best at higher pH). It is a small=3D2C weak organic acid
anyway=3D2C quite different in behavior from strong mineral acids. High
school chemistry and biology students are often given test questions
to ascertain just how well they understand acids=3D3B the Internet has
quite a few tutorials available that discuss the special
considerations of acetic acid because the difference between strong
and weak acid behavior often stumps beginners.

Acetic acid itself (the un-dissociated molecule) is not prone to
adsorption on clay. You will note that when used or studied as a metal
chelating agent=3D2C acetic acid is always discussed in terms of the
molecule itself=3D2C not an ion as one would get if acetic acid were to
dissociate to form H+ ions. By itself and in solution acetic acid=3D2C a
carboxylic acid=3D2C is strongly associated because of hydrogen bonding
between molecules. Acetic acid usually exists as dimers held together
by two hydrogen bonds. Should there be some dissociation of the acetic
acid molecules=3D2C this is not a problem because in our solid state clay
body the particles of clay=3D2C silica=3D2C feldspar=3D2C iron oxides and/o=
r
hydroxides=3D2C other trace=3D2C and grog or temper are surrounded by
hydration layers and acetic acid cations or anions have a slim chance
of directly impacting the clay crystal agglomerates and other
particles anyway.

So what=3D92s happening? Why do clay workers use vinegar to enhance
forming=3D2C clay bodies=3D2C or to aid in crack repair?

Vinegar can become involved in a type of bond called a ligand bond. In
doing so it forms soluble metal-chelate complexes or involves itself
in ligand exchange with nearby water and interacts with hydrogen
bonding systems already present in the clay body so that we have a
ligand binding system that spreads as far as we have applied acetic
acid molecules. These near-instantaneously formed bonds are very
strong and account for the good effects some clay workers call
flocculation.

But alas=3D2C it would really be a mistake that might cause confusion or
lack of clarity down the road if we continue to refer to
ligand-binding or chelation or metal-complexation as flocculation.
These are entirely different phenomenon. Flocculation occurs in a
fluid system =3D96 in a clay body we have a solid solution or system=3D2C n=
ot
a fluid or a colloidal one. Clay particles have long since
agglomerated so that we don=3D92t think of them or visualize them as
single clay particles having an imbalance of charge needing to be
satisfied. Kaolin=3D2C our most common clay=3D2C never has much charge anyw=
ay.
Hydrogen splitting may occur=3D2C giving particle edges a slight negative
charge=3D2C but this is so easily satisfied by the mineral ions in plain
tap water or the minerals in the water portion of vinegar that it is
not of great concern.

So=3D2C vinegar works by connecting all particles in the clay body=3D2C not
just clay particles =3D96 and it does so through ligand-binding and ligand
exchange bridging between the individual clay body particles.
Fascinating=3D2C isn=3D92t it?

In fact=3D2C if we were to test clay for metals we might as a first step
use acetic acid or one of its relatives to extract the metals from the
clay. In this case we=3D92d call acetic acid a chelating agent or
complexing agent. A 0.5 M solution of acetic acid is enough when used
as a first step in sequential extraction procedures. The process also
removes organic material so samples will often be colored brownish.
For the metals (e.g. As=3D2C Cd=3D2C Cr=3D2C Cu=3D2C Fe=3D2C Pb=3D2C Mn=3D2=
C Ni=3D2C and Zn=3D
)=3D2C we have=3D2C
just as if we daubed our clay body with vinegar=3D2C formed soluble
metal-chelate complexes (this may be why some patches may appear
somewhat discolored or texturally different =3D96 the vinegar has
concentrated the metals it=3D92s pulled from adjacent sides of the clay
body fracture and your patch material). Since the objective is to
remove metals from the clay and not bond clay body particles or
attempt to flocculate them=3D2C the clay is washed and the metals are
removed (or collected) along with the acetic acid =3D96 they are=3D2C if yo=
u
will imagine=3D2C the equivalent of being suspended in the acetic acid
solution (they are actually surrounded and isolated by a =3D91cage=3D92 of
acetic acid molecules so that they are no longer active in
charge-equalization processes nor contributing to charge imbalances).
This is metal desorption/dissolution and acetic acid is very good at
this. If acetic acid dissociated and flocculated clay particles this
very common=3D2C standard extraction procedure would not be possible.

Another weak acid=3D2C EDTA (ethylene diamine tetraacetic acid)=3D2C a
relative of acetic acid=3D2C is used in a Mora poultice (first constructed
by an Italian building conservator named Mora) to extract stains from
limestone and marble. It does so by facilitating the dissolution of
calcium salts by complex formation. After the offending salts are
captured in the poultice=3D2C it is removed or allowed to fall off on its
own. EDTA is also now one of the chelating agents most often selected
for the first step in sequential metal extraction from clay or soils.

This is all common modern textbook material=3D2C from chemistry (general=3D=
2C
inorganic=3D2C organic=3D2C physical)=3D2C biochemistry=3D2C biology=3D2C m=
edical=3D2C =3D
dental=3D2C
environmental=3D2C soil science=3D2C and other related disciplines in
institutions of higher learning all around the world. On-line there is
an enormous volume of articles from many disciplines on acetic acid=3D2C
ligand binding=3D2C metal complexing=3D2C etc. Dictionaries are good for
definitions and as a basic starting point for further thought and
research. Way back in my education I was always taught that
dictionaries should never be used as a reference.

I hope you have found this explanation helpful.
This is my last post to the list for awhile =3D96 although I=3D92ve met a f=
ew
wonderful folks=3D2C there have been far too many bad memories over the
last three years for me to contend with at this creative period in my
life.

Marian Gooding
Neon-Cat
www.neon-cat.com
=3D20

=3D20




=3D

Steph C on sat 29 jan 11

Dear Marion,

Thank you for your wonderfully informative, scientific and fascinating po=
=3D
sts. I=3D20
am sad to see you step away from Clayart, especially since I have only=3D20=
=3D

recently joined and would have very much enjoyed interacting more with yo=
=3D
u.

I appreciate the time you took to write detailed posts and share your adv=
=3D
anced=3D20
chemistry knowledge. In particular, I would like to thank you for your re=
=3D
cent=3D20
links to a couple of papers on chrome-tin glazes; I had googled, searched=
=3D
the=3D20
clayart archives and read a few glaze books, but these papers really focu=
=3D
sed=3D20
my search for a vivid chrome-tin red.

Thanks again,
Steph

Neon-Cat on sun 13 mar 11

Mr. Woof,

There is absolutely nothing I can post to clayart that will not upset
some academics and "gurus", yourself included (as an academic). I got
the message -- and I stopped posting on clay science. Never did I have
"claws extended" (you definitely have an artist's fantasy going
there). I then went about my own business, coming back for a purely
social visit. I should have stayed off the list entirely. What about
my recent visit upset you so? It is enough for me to enjoy knowing and
learning clay science, no need to attempt to share -- it has only
netted me frowny faces, angry emails, ill will, and threats -- now it
seems it is open season again. What is your problem?

I stopped reading your posts when you would rather have lead the
entire list astray with the garbage about calcareous clay that was
surely going to fall apart in your attempt to discredit some things I
wrote erroneously assuming that if you could convince the list my work
was going to fall apart then there was surely nothing that I wrote
that could have been true. For me, that play, not the word used in the
subject line, was the offense. My gosh, there are pieces in museums
that we all admire that were made with clay containing calcium. There
is so much literature out there from reputable sources on how the
ancients used, processed, and fired their calcium-containing clays it
would take me half a day to supply you with only some references. I
love my personal clay bodies -- all full of calcium. A tad off the
beaten path, but they work dependably for me under a variety of
situations.

I need to stay focused and do better with my own claywork. This I
should have been doing instead of posting clayart. My mistake for
thinking everybody was welcome to chat about clay. I do not need a
list where I am perceived as aggressive and/or whining. That was never
my intent. I may have been impatient and disappointed, but gee -- just
for example (the door opened this morning) -- if someone is trying to
understand modern clay science and has gone no further than a
chemistry text published in 1939-40, it does make flying with thoughts
and ideas difficult for them and very boring for me. Ligands and
complexes were not covered way back when so zinc, vinegar, whatever,
will never be appreciated in the right manner. And that is not my
fault.

Take heart, you'll delete and go on to the next newbie some of you
fellas feel entitled to toy with. Magnanimously calling the whole mess
"family" will never make it right. Some of you wanted 'the cat
belled', me gone and destroyed, the 'flow of information controlled',
so you get your wish but then want me to linger? What, some of you are
not through telling me off in your veiled manner? There is no pleasing
some folks.

I have met many nice academics and many more nice non-academics --
newbie, professional, and in-between. Those I love and I hope they
know it. Dropping in to the list now even socially seems impossible.

You want to duke it out, write me off list, better yet call, Woof. Or
did you need the list as audience? Number is on my website.

Marian Gooding
Neon-Cat Ceramics
www.neon-cat.com




On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 7:18 PM, David Woof wrote:
> Neon, Cat, Marian, (who ever you are today!) you do add a splash of your =
=3D
particular color to our tapestry)
>
> I do find your information fascinating and now that you have been writing=
=3D
more for the everyman/woman potter rather than dukeing it out with the sci=
=3D
entists in insider terms.... I will miss you. =3DA0 When you had your back =
up=3D
and claws extended and I and several others wrote pointed reprimands to yo=
=3D
u; =3DA0I held/hold no ill will toward you then or now and hope that you re=
jo=3D
in the Clayart family dialogue when you are ready.
>
> You have much to offer and if you would refrain from vacillating between =
=3D
whining and out right aggression, reading your contributions are an informa=
=3D
tive pleasure. =3DA0However I don't take issue with your personal issues. =
=3DA0=3D
When you are writing from a good place; I read. =3DA0When not; I delete!
>
> Be well,
> David Woof