JOE BENNION on sat 28 dec 96
don,
I am going to assume that you walk or bicycle to work, fire your ceramic work
and heat your home with solar energy, never fly in a jet and are otherwise
sufficiently without sin so as to qualify yourself for the task of casting
stones of this size at people.This is a small community and we all live in
glass houses after all.
Joe the Potter
>happy to find so few persons willing to further pollute the air of
>Pit-burg.don
Don Sanami on sat 28 dec 96
Joe B, If we small spiders do not irritate a polluted society,who will? I
DO ride my bike whenever possible. I heat with natural gas.I have afuel
efficient auto,I use when necessary to leave this isolated village. My
pots are fired with Hydro produced power and only when I have a full
kiln-load. I eat no red meat,and survive mostly on vegetables. With
little personal power to effect the course of the apocalypse,I do what I
can and hope to spread the word. Waht th,hell.Don M.On Sat, 28 Dec 1996, JOE
BENNION wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> don,
> I am going to assume that you walk or bicycle to work, fire your ceramic work
> and heat your home with solar energy, never fly in a jet and are otherwise
> sufficiently without sin so as to qualify yourself for the task of casting
> stones of this size at people.This is a small community and we all live in
> glass houses after all.
> Joe the Potter
>
> >happy to find so few persons willing to further pollute the air of
> >Pit-burg.don
>
Terrance Lazaroff on mon 30 dec 96
Don;
When we take cheap shots the rebound is very expensive.
We all pollute from the day we are born and continue to pollute long after we
have gone to the great clay pottery in the sky. We can only try to reduce
our personal waste the best way possible. I am sure your are doing yours.
Wood firing pollutes but no more than a farm yard of farting cows.
Electricity pollutes the lakes behind the dams.
Bicycles pollute the streets of major Chinese Cities.
Automobile factories pollute.
Natural gas pollutes.
Clothing manufacturing pollutes.
Going to the lu (sp) pollutes
The question is who pollutes the lest and what can we do to assist them to
reduce thier activity without taking away their livelyhood and pleasure.
Andrew S Lubow on mon 30 dec 96
Hydro Power? Do you have your own plant?
On Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:22:07 EST Don Sanami
writes:
>----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>Joe B, If we small spiders do not irritate a polluted society,who
>will? I
>DO ride my bike whenever possible. I heat with natural gas.I have
>afuel
>efficient auto,I use when necessary to leave this isolated village. My
>pots are fired with Hydro produced power and only when I have a full
>kiln-load. I eat no red meat,and survive mostly on vegetables. With
>little personal power to effect the course of the apocalypse,I do what
>I
>can and hope to spread the word. Waht th,hell.Don M.On Sat, 28 Dec
>1996, JOE
>BENNION wrote:
>
>> ----------------------------Original
>message----------------------------
>> don,
>> I am going to assume that you walk or bicycle to work, fire your
>ceramic work
>> and heat your home with solar energy, never fly in a jet and are
>otherwise
>> sufficiently without sin so as to qualify yourself for the task of
>casting
>> stones of this size at people.This is a small community and we all
>live in
>> glass houses after all.
>> Joe the Potter
>>
>> >happy to find so few persons willing to further pollute the air of
>> >Pit-burg.don
>>
>
Charles Williams on mon 30 dec 96
Don,
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". We all are obligated to
care for this fragile earth, in my opinion. However, I believe we do not need
to ridicule others in order to make a point. You are also tradition bashing,
as this is the way pottery has been fired for eons. Do what you can and cut
the others a little slack!
C Williams
Akita-jin \"Lee Love\" on tue 31 dec 96
On Mon, 30 Dec 1996 11:29:28 EST Terrance Lazaroff writes:
>
>When we take cheap shots the rebound is very expensive. <...>
I agree. I eat low on the food chain, but being vegetarian like the
original poster said he was does not necessarily do less harm. The
fish I catch in a local lake does less harm to the environment than a
Fuji apple that is flown on a jet to me from New Zealand. Eating,
firing, making, buying locally is as important as eating low on the food
chain.
Like I said in a previous post, wood for fuel can be better for the
atmosphere than other fuels, if you manage your own woodlot. If you
can't manage a woodlot, you can plant trees on arbor day. Electricity
makes the worst kind of pollution and the radioactivity can last for
thousands of years. Like Joe said, the damns are on the power grid too
& you can't tell where that particular electron came from.
Lee In Pig's Eye
/(o\ Lee Love In St. Paul, MN Come see some pixs of my AkitaPup:
\o)/ mailto:Ikiru@juno.com http://www.millcomm.com/~leelove
LeeLove@millcomm.com "You can observe a lot by watching."
.. -Yogi Berra-
Don Sanami on tue 31 dec 96
Dear Terrance, Where does livlihood end and greed begin? It is the peak
or depth of Sophistry to equate the farting of cows with the purposful
polluting of the planet. don.On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Don;
>
> When we take cheap shots the rebound is very expensive.
>
> We all pollute from the day we are born and continue to pollute long after we
> have gone to the great clay pottery in the sky. We can only try to reduce
> our personal waste the best way possible. I am sure your are doing yours.
>
> Wood firing pollutes but no more than a farm yard of farting cows.
> Electricity pollutes the lakes behind the dams.
> Bicycles pollute the streets of major Chinese Cities.
> Automobile factories pollute.
> Natural gas pollutes.
> Clothing manufacturing pollutes.
> Going to the lu (sp) pollutes
>
> The question is who pollutes the lest and what can we do to assist them to
> reduce thier activity without taking away their livelyhood and pleasure.
>
Don Sanami on tue 31 dec 96
Andrew & Terrance, Why is it called "woodfire bashing" when I ask
reasonable questions? On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Andrew S Lubow wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Hydro Power? Do you have your own plant?
>
> On Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:22:07 EST Don Sanami
> writes:
> >----------------------------Original
> >message----------------------------
> >Joe B, If we small spiders do not irritate a polluted society,who
> >will? I
> >DO ride my bike whenever possible. I heat with natural gas.I have
> >afuel
> >efficient auto,I use when necessary to leave this isolated village. My
> >pots are fired with Hydro produced power and only when I have a full
> >kiln-load. I eat no red meat,and survive mostly on vegetables. With
> >little personal power to effect the course of the apocalypse,I do what
> >I
> >can and hope to spread the word. Waht th,hell.Don M.On Sat, 28 Dec
> >1996, JOE
> >BENNION wrote:
> >
> >> ----------------------------Original
> >message----------------------------
> >> don,
> >> I am going to assume that you walk or bicycle to work, fire your
> >ceramic work
> >> and heat your home with solar energy, never fly in a jet and are
> >otherwise
> >> sufficiently without sin so as to qualify yourself for the task of
> >casting
> >> stones of this size at people.This is a small community and we all
> >live in
> >> glass houses after all.
> >> Joe the Potter
> >>
> >> >happy to find so few persons willing to further pollute the air of
> >> >Pit-burg.don
> >>
> >
>
Don Sanami on tue 31 dec 96
C.Wms. Let the others cut their own slack. Who would know better the
right path than he who has sinned?donOn Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Charles Williams
wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Don,
> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". We all are obligated to
> care for this fragile earth, in my opinion. However, I believe we do not need
> to ridicule others in order to make a point. You are also tradition bashing,
> as this is the way pottery has been fired for eons. Do what you can and cut
> the others a little slack!
>
> C Williams
>
Don Sanami on tue 31 dec 96
C.Wms. I would also point out that roughly 98 percent of those eons,the
world population was very small. Through most of that time it was very
difficult to dig,clean,form and fire only enough pots for containers.
Whjatever Art is it didn't arrive on the scene until it became property
donOn Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Charles Williams wrote:
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> Don,
> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". We all are obligated to
> care for this fragile earth, in my opinion. However, I believe we do not need
> to ridicule others in order to make a point. You are also tradition bashing,
> as this is the way pottery has been fired for eons. Do what you can and cut
> the others a little slack!
>
> C Williams
>
Terrance Lazaroff on thu 2 jan 97
Don:
I didn`t attach the term "Woodfire bashing" to your thread. My point was
not to make a mockery of you. It was to point out that there are a lot of
things in this world that we have no control over. You obviously want to do
somthing about it. That is great. But If you are a potter, you are just as
guilty of polution as someone who fires with wood.. My point is be
prepared to eat toenails when you stick your foot in your mouth.
There are a lot of different opinions out there. I am not against yours. It
is just that it we cannot degrade somone else until we look at ourselves. In
other words poloution is "bigger than both of us." We can do what we feel is
best and thats all.
PS. Have you ever read the study on natural production of methane. I
believe farting cows rate second after the Mackenzie Delta for producing this
poluting gas. But don`t quote me on that as I am not a naturlist.
Best regards
Terrance F. Lazaroff
St Hubert, Quebec, Canada !!!!
Gavin Stairs on fri 3 jan 97
My goodness, how complicated all this sort of argument becomes. Farting
cows, for an example. Cows are not "natural" beasts. Long, long ago, the
predecessors of our beef and dairy cows were peacefully munching the reeds
in some asian or near-eastern swamp. The closest living relatives of these
are probably the bullocks which pull plows in those parts even today. The
cattle in our fields were bred away from those prototypes to accentuate the
qualities that we (our forebears) desired, and to provide meat and milk that
you didn't have to run after. See the Masai, and other semi-nomadic
herders. After hundreds of years of selective breeding and farming/ranching
technology, voila: the modern beef and or dairy herd, or cow-calf operation.
Forgive me, but the modern cow is about as natural as a pot. Sure it comes
from natural beginnings, but you don't find them lying on the ground, or in
the wild. You find them, today, on intensive beef/milk raising operations
(are there any farms left?) which generally employ lots of machinery,
chemical fertilizers, pesticides, drugs and land, land, land. Who competes
for land around that Old Man Dam? Cattlemen and oilmen, that's who. And
the cattlemen generally want dams too, to give them more water for feed.
I don't know of any part of our modern society which is not a rapacious
feeder on the resources of the earth. To suppose that pottery is innocent
is foolish. But to indict wood burning kilns on environmental grounds is at
best an argument of slight differences, and at worst has it backwards.
There is precious little we can do to improve the situation until we stop
making more of us. One more techologically supported human being is the
worst polluter of all. The best pollution control is practiced in the
bedroom. We won't get to zero growth for quite some time yet, so brace
yourselves: it's gonna get worse.
As for sending humans off to other planets, now there's the ultimate in
disposables. Disposable planets. Go figure.
We only get one chance, folks. Let's try to get it right. But we won't fix
the whole thing by individually going back to the stone age. We need to
take the whole earth with us, wherever we end up going. In computers, there
is a rule of thumb called Amdahl's law, which is about speeding up a process
by improving a part of it. It states that by improving a part, the best you
can do is the same as if you were to remove it entirely. So, if you take
away the pollution of one whole person (yourself), you will have improved
the situation by (3 billion - 1) / 3 billion, which is as good as not at
all. However, the whole US is about half the problem, as it now stands.
Remove that, and you've made a difference. So, support the ones doing good
and turf out the others, and pray we have enough time to get the lob done.
Unfortunately, you probably wouldn't recognize the US after the job is done,
so who has the imagination and guts to go for it? And take the rest along
with him/her?
Me, I'm fixing to make pots until they plant me, and I become still clay too.
Bye, Gavin
At 11:13 AM 31/12/96 EST, you wrote:
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Dear Terrance, Where does livlihood end and greed begin? It is the peak
>or depth of Sophistry to equate the farting of cows with the purposful
>polluting of the planet. don.On Mon, 30 Dec 1996, Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
>
Fiona.Beaumont on sat 4 jan 97
Gavin,
Just to add my bit to the debate;
I know this list is predominantly US based, but I was a little
confused when you asked
"are there any farms left?"
Where I come from, there are many, many farms. Many of which are now
using organic farming methods (ie. avoiding chemicals, pesticides
etc). This is mainly due to public demand for food produced using
less destructive methods. In fact, as I am writing this, there is an
article on BBC news stating that UK farmers cannot currently cope with
the demand for organically produced beef and wheat.
You may or may not be aware of the BSE beef crisis we have had - this
has highlighted to the general public the possible consequences of
industrially produced animal feed. At present, the cost of
organically produced food is much higher than "conventially" produced
food. So if you are shopping on a budget, you cannot afford to be
high-minded, as much as you might wish to.
Unfortunately, as you quite rightly point out, the demands of the
population mean that not enough farmers yet follow these methods.
Although, as an individual I can support the efforts of organic farming by
buying the produce, it will always come down to governments embracing policies
that make these environmentally friendly approaches economically viable - that
is to say "putting their money where their mouth is"! Don't hold your breath!
I think what I am trying to say (in a very long-winded fashion), is that
everyone should be aware of the potential enviromental damage their actions may
cause, and try to limit it to the best of their ability (e.g. using wood-firing
kilns with old pallets in Texas, or with a re-planting scheme if you have the
land, or one of the many other suggestions mentioned on this thread), but there
is no point in getting strung up over the things you can't control.
Is burning wood in a woodstove to keep your family warm, when you cannot afford
any other method of heating, more justifiable in environmental damage than
firing pots in a wood-fired kiln in order to earn the money to buy this "other"
form of heating ? Food for thought?
I must admit I had a chortle over:
"However, the whole US is about half the problem, as it now stands. Remove that,
and you've made a difference."
You may think so, but I couldn't possibly comment! You could always remove the
other half I suppose.......?
Regards
Fiona
Dunstable, UK
Where the same lump of snow has been frozen to my window sill for two weeks now!
Unheard of!! Snow doesn't normally last for more than a couple of hours!
Fiona.beaumont@ps.net
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Woodfire bashing
Author: CLAYART@LSV.UKY.EDU%smtp at ccx400uk
Date: 03/01/97 15:38
.....Forgive me, but the modern cow is about as natural as a pot. Sure it
comes from natural beginnings, but you don't find them lying on the ground,
or in the wild. You find them, today, on intensive beef/milk raising
operations (are there any farms left?) which generally employ lots of
machinery, chemical fertilizers, pesticides, drugs and land, land, land.
Who competes for land around that Old Man Dam? Cattlemen and oilmen, that's
who. And the cattlemen generally want dams too, to give them more water for
feed.
...... However, the whole US is about half the problem, as it now stands.
Remove that, and you've made a difference. So, support the ones doing good
and turf out the others, and pray we have enough time to get the lob done.
Unfortunately, you probably wouldn't recognize the US after the job is done,
so who has the imagination and guts to go for it? And take the rest along
with him/her?
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