David Hendley on thu 3 may 07
No, this object is not handmade. It is cast. There are dozens
of identical pieces.
It would be pretty obvious to notice the difference when
looking at wareboards full of cast objects, compared to
boards-full of thrown, handbuilt, assembled, combined,
or altered work.
This story, as well as several others sent in by slip casters
yesterday and today, perfectly illustrates my point:
> I've found
> that the definition of "handmade" mostly depends
> on who is doing the talking. Of course any potter
> you talk to at a craft show considers their work
> handmade; what they consider not handmade is
> any work that uses more advanced or automated
> technologies than they use.
Generally, the person who "thought it up" is the designer,
but this has no bearing on whether or not "it" is eventually
handmade or not.
In this case, I guess the "designer" is Browning or
Smith & Wesson, or whoever made the original shell casing,
since a mold was made from the casing. Making a mold
of it might even be illegal. Of course if you glaze and
decorate it you can be a co-designer.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david@farmpots.com
www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
>I have a curious situation/question on this subject, first I'd like to
>say
> that I personally believe that something is handmade if the person who
> designed it, thought it up, whatever, made it with their own two hands-
> regardless
> of the method of making. I hand throw some stuff,hand build some stuff,
> and
> hand cast some stuff. With that said I also have been taking on many jobs
> that
> are small production runs By small I mean less than 50 pieces. I am doing
> one now where I made the mold and I am casting the piece from start to
> finish.
> The "designer" went to a rapid proto type company with an existing object
> and
> had them program the
> machine to scale the existing object up in size and a model was made by a
> machine. Then it came to me and I am doing everything else by hand.The
> object
> is a bullet shell casing so he didn't think up the form. Now I do have to
> interject with a little tid bit before I ask my question- A conversation
> came up
> to the effect of him stating to me that he would have to stand behind
> "his
> work" At that moment I thought to myself "His work! he didn't do a $&^%
> thing"
> So my question is Whose work is it and is it handmade? I also know that
> as
> hired help I don't get credit I think I would have felt better if he
> referred
> to it as "his project" as opposed to" his work"
Cindy Gatto on thu 3 may 07
I have a curious situation/question on this subject, first I'd like to say
that I personally believe that something is handmade if the person who
designed it, thought it up, whatever, made it with their own two hands- regardless
of the method of making. I hand throw some stuff,hand build some stuff, and
hand cast some stuff. With that said I also have been taking on many jobs that
are small production runs By small I mean less than 50 pieces. I am doing
one now where I made the mold and I am casting the piece from start to finish.
The "designer" went to a rapid proto type company with an existing object and
had them program the
machine to scale the existing object up in size and a model was made by a
machine. Then it came to me and I am doing everything else by hand.The object
is a bullet shell casing so he didn't think up the form. Now I do have to
interject with a little tid bit before I ask my question- A conversation came up
to the effect of him stating to me that he would have to stand behind "his
work" At that moment I thought to myself "His work! he didn't do a $&^% thing"
So my question is Whose work is it and is it handmade? I also know that as
hired help I don't get credit I think I would have felt better if he referred
to it as "his project" as opposed to" his work"
Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
_www.mudpitnyc.com_ (http://www.mudpitnyc.com/)
mudpitnyc@aol.com
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
stephani stephenson on fri 4 may 07
I'm not sure what the point of even using the term
'handmade' would add to this piece???? in my mind i am
picturing something sculptural, and sculptural pieces
rarely say 'handmade' sculpture, even if they are.
so the inclusion of the word in this case seems
puzzling and i doubt it would be useful in a
marketing sense.
the question of whose work it is gets kind of complex
as well.
did you contract the work? generally the head honcho
, who ever is contracting out the work, will get the
credit. if that person hired you , or subcontracted to
you with your permission, they can claim the credit.
hiring, subcontracting, marketing, apprenticeships,
all involve
cases where your part in the process may not be
acknowledged.
if you are using your own tools and studio to do a
significant amount of the work and it has your visual
'signature ' to it, then you might discuss and try
write this into the contract, but there is a long
history about the above, with often no credit
whatsoever given ,even to someone who comes up with an
original design and who does the model and the mold.
it is often the marketer who takes credit.
i have done relief sculpting which ended up on the
sides of mass produced plastic pet food bins... do i
care about my name there ? no! I was paid for
sculpting. period.
this happens in tile world too, where distributors
claim credit for work they have never even touched,
except for the showroom sample. Sometimes they have
their name stamped on it .sometimes they have working
arrangements with the maker and will share, even
promote that info, but is also true in many cases they
will not disclose the name of the maker and even
insinuate that they are the maker. that bugs me, in my
own personal situation/ though there are some who
specifically choose to make work that will never bear
their name.
i have done sculpting and work for other studios and
part of the reality , which i knew full well at the
time, is that the studio or the lead artist would get
credit for the work. and in that context, it was
something i agreed to, and if or when the time comes
to move on, you move on.
for some, this is fine, for others, there is a time in
an apprenticeship where this is fine, but they move
on, and for others this is never fine.
there are so many designers, sculptors, potters,
modelmakers, painters, glaze chemists, decorators,
tradespeople of all callings who's names never grace
the work or the marketing material.
some of the work done during the arts and crafts
movement as well as in the 1960s and 1970s was to
reclaim and reconnect the artist and the work . group
studios acknowledged work as the work of a group of
skilled crafts people and artists. i am more at home
with this approach.
this one is pushing my boundaries as well. as with
tile, the larger and more automated, more divided up
it gets, the less comfortable i am with promoting it
as handmade. and then there are the issues David
mentions.
Stephani Stephenson
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Neal on fri 4 may 07
To me, "handmade" conjures up the idea that
the artist's hands are involved not just in
production but in the result. With slipcast
pieces, once the mold has been made, would
the results vary significantly from person
to person using that mold?
I make some tiles in molds. But anyone using
my molds could make tiles that look like the
ones I make. My presence isn't necessary once
the mold is made.
Neal O'Briant
P.S. The idea of a "seconds sales" was
brought up at the April meeting of the Triangle
Potters Guild (as Chris Campbell mentioned),
but there was not a decision to hold one--it
was just an idea. The idea could resurface
when we meet again in the fall. But more
likely it will be forgotten as a lot of items
that are brought up are.
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Lois Ruben Aronow on fri 4 may 07
Re: Cindy's example - I think the individual pieces are not "handmade", but
the finished sculpture using them is, as they would be assembling it.
Which brings me to something David wrote:
>
> No, this object is not handmade. It is cast. There are dozens
> of identical pieces.
> It would be pretty obvious to notice the difference when
> looking at ware boards full of cast objects, compared to
> boards-full of thrown, hand built, assembled, combined, or
> altered work.
Now bear with me, because I do have a point and I'm not known for being
brief.
My in-laws used to live in Williamsburg, VA. On our first visit, we did the
usual touristy things - visiting the restoration, blah blah blah. Of course
there are tchotckes in every gift shop, and one of the more popular items
was reproductions of the salt-glazed pottery.
We drove past a huge building that said "Pottery Factory", and my elderly
in-laws indulged my urge to go it. This was the place where they made those
reproductions! I told the manager I was a potter, and could I come in for a
look. He said yes. He showed me the giant pug mill, which churned out the
clay. There was one guy measuring, cutting, and putting it into buckets.
Then we went on the throwing station. Yes, these things - IIRC, jugs and
vases, small to medium height - were hand thrown by 3 men, at stand up
wheels, side-by-side in front of their lines.
The men were Mexican, and only one spoke English, so I was able to ask him
some questions. Yes, they threw every piece, and got paid by the piece. On
a average day each man threw several hundred. I watched them throw, in
total and complete awe at how fast they threw. One after the other. No
measuring. No weighing. When you throw that many pieces, you can basically
tear off a hunk of clay and know if it's the right amount. It was hypnotic.
I asked if they ever got to make their own work, and the man I spoke with
said he occasionally did, but not really. It really was a just a job for
most of the production throwers. (as an aside, a friend of mine spent a
summer production throwing for Simon Pierce. It was just a skill he learned
for the job - he didn't consider himself a potter. He's an architect, and
was putting himself through school).
I walked on down the lines to the glaze area. We all know about the men
with the masks, the industrial spray guns, and the bottomless buckets of
glaze, which were basically blungers, churning away.
After that, each line had a little lady, who sat there and cleaned off the
bottoms of the pots. They were wiped, not waxed.
Finally, I got to the kiln. It was this big mother of a gas car kiln. But
I mean like the size of a house. I met the two lovely men who loaded it.
My point is this: I know that *technically*, by definition, this work is
handmade. But really and truly, in my heart, I know this is manufactured
work - made by people to whom this was just a job that kept them standing
all day long. Concentrating and contemplating their work? Hell no. They
all had walkmen (no ipods then). Is there a difference between MAKING and
MANUFACTURING, regardless of the process? Yes, I think there is. Very much
so.
OK, since you hung with me this far, I'll give you the punch line: I asked
the kiln guy where they put the salt in. He said they don't use salt. I
said "the work is labeled as salt glaze pottery". He said yes - that's how
they did it originally. But their reproductions of the salt glaze pottery
were not salt glazed - they were made to LOOK salt glazed.
...Lo
Who thinks this thread and replaced the Art V Craft debate, and is going off
to knit.
**********
Lois Aronow Ceramics
Brooklyn, NY
www.loisaronow.com
www.craftsofthedamned.blogspot.com
Helen Bates on fri 4 may 07
On Fri, 4 May 2007 07:16:40 -0700, stephani stephenson <...> wrote:
>(...) there are so many designers, sculptors, potters,
>modelmakers, painters, glaze chemists, decorators,
>tradespeople of all callings who's names never grace
>the work or the marketing material. (...)
To add to the confusion, my husband and I read a historical mystery set in
early 19th. C. London. Included in the book jacket design was a painting
that illustrated a scene that would have been typical of the time (around
1815), in which a pair of Hackney Cabs were featured. I became interested
in this painting and checked the credits. None was given for the painting,
though anyone else involved with the jacket design was mentioned. This
irritated me and my husband, who is a painter. His eyes are sharper than
mine for this sort of thing and he was able to make out a painted signature
and I was able from this to find out who the painter was. He was an
extremely good (IMHO) genre painter named John Christian (Charles) Maggs who
painted many scenes with horses and carriages in the countryside and the
cities of England. He is findable on the Internet, but because he was
"limited" in subject matter, there has been little interest on the part of
the big art sites in featuring his work. Much of it is shown by the poster
sites, and the images are modest in size. One painting did go for auction
some time ago, however, and I think it fetched about $15,000. 00. How would
it have hurt to give the painter credit? It would have added to my pleasure
(it did anyway, since I am Ms "Web Sleuth") to know who painted that
delightful pre-photographic illustration. (I suppose photography was
actually in its infancy and childhood while he was just hitting his stride.)
Helen
--
Helen Bates
Belleville, Ontario, Canada
Clayarters' URLs: http://amsterlaw.com/clayart/
Cindy Gatto on fri 4 may 07
I asked this question simply because I was curious no other reason I went
into this job knowing I was hired help and I would do all of the work for a fee
and not receive credit I have been doing a lot of these jobs lately and they
all have a common thread A person takes an existing object, once it was a
lamp from a thrift store this time a bullet shell casing.they bring the object
to my studio not altered in any way, okay the shell was sized up, I make the
mold and make the pieces in their entirety Then they put their name on it as
their design. I personally think it's a crock. But this seems to the norm
nowadays I seem to be in the minority in thinking there is something is wrong
with this picture. But as far as hand cast yes I think it is at least that. And
no when you are casting by hand every piece will not be exactly the same
There is still the human factor. I personally don't like casting I enjoy feeling
the clay slip through my fingers but sometimes there is no other way to make
something or a component of something other than slipcasting.
Cindy Gatto & Mark Petrin
The Mudpit
228 Manhattan Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11206
718-218-9424
_www.mudpitnyc.com_ (http://www.mudpitnyc.com/)
mudpitnyc@aol.com
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
stephani stephenson on sat 5 may 07
HI Cindy
based on your recent post, (remember readers are still
building a mental picture of objects and process)
it sounds like people are bringing work to you which
you significantly develop or alter...and it sounds
like them taking credit is somewhat , what is the word
.... irritating, in that it doesn't seem quite right
to you...
what would happen if you required a co-mark on the
object(? i have seen this done where one person makes
the model and the mold and the other fires and glazes
it, both signature marks are put on the object)
or some phrase indicating involvement....
"from the studio of Cindy Gatto for such and such
enterprises....etc."
the only way to change it is to speak up to the client
.
which is an art in itself!
Stephani
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