pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 18 may 07
you will..." - Kathi's mentions
Hi Kathi,
Where do you think I am at then, in all this?
Phil
l v
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathi LeSueur"
and "...Picture if you will..."
> pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> Extruded may be 'Hand Extruded' if one pulls the Handle of the
>> Extruder 'by
>> hand'...or has a foot and Sturup method, or if a Hydraulic Extruder
>> actuated by a Foot Pedal, then...
>>
>> "Made via an Extruder whose Handle is pulled 'By Hand'...or as may be,
>> "Made
>> fromsub-assemblys which were produced on a Hand-operated Extruder and
>> cut up or
>> otherwise maipulated and fitted by hand, to form a whole."
>>
>> If you ( we, me, or anyone) just say WHAT you ( we, me, or anyone )
>> really
>> are doing,
>> then no one will ever need to get into these problems
>> about whether something is or is not 'hand made'...or just how 'Hands'
>> had
>> anything whatever to do with it.>>>
> It seems to me that in the end what this argument is all about is people
> deciding why what they do is ok and why what others do is not. I could
> care less whether an extrusion is hand pulled. Actually, I do care. I
> extruder off of my pug mill. So, my extrusions are pushed. I frankly
> don't care if you throw, extrude, slip cast, or RAM press. I care about
> the finished product. Pressed work can look dead or it can be finished
> in such a way as to be as beautiful and exciting as hand thrown. The
> same with slip cast pieces. The same with thrown.
>
> Some people have to make a living. They have families to support. Being
> a full-time potter is hard on the body. People look to minimize the wear
> and tear on their bodies as much as possible. That's why they have a
> good pug mill and an electric slab roller . That's why they find pieces
> that they can make with a minimum of effort. I don't care as long as the
> finishing and attention to detail is the same as their other work.
> "Mass-produced"? I've been making the same style of mug for twenty
> years. It's evolved and been refined over the years. But, it's the same
> design. I'm sure I've made thousands. If that's not mass-produced, what
> is? There's a reason why so many people quit potting in their fifties.
> Their bodies have given out because they tried to be such a purist that
> they never used anything that would make their life easier.
>
> I hate it when production potters are denigrated because they make the
> same thing over and over. I watch "one-of-a-kind" potters making the
> same things over and over also. It's just that they display only one at
> a time on pedestals instead of shelves. At show after show they have the
> same pieces. If it's on a pedestal it's art. If it's on a shelf it's
> pottery.
>
> I wish the pottery police would stop to consider that we all make
> choices according to our needs. Not everyone can or wants to live where
> they can sell all of their work out of their studio. Some people love
> doing art fairs. Others hate them. Others have no choice. Have a major
> shoulder problem and you'll start to think twice about using power
> assisted technology. Sometimes the choice is to give up some of the
> "purity" in order to continue doing what you love. Either that or go be
> a greeter at Wal-mart.
>
> Kathi
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on fri 18 may 07
you will..."
Hi Chris,
Extruded may be 'Hand Extruded' if one pulls the Handle of the Extruder 'by
hand'...or has a foot ansd Sturup method, or if a Hydraulic Extruder
actuated by a Foot Pedal, then...
"Made via an Extruder whose Handle is pulled 'By Hand'...or as may be, "Made
from
sub-assemblys which were produced on a Hand-operated Extruder and cut up or
otherwise maipulated and fitted by hand, to form a whole."
Do you mean extrusions AS product? Or as manipulated components or assemblys
of a 'Hand
Building' process?
If you ( we, me, or anyone) just say WHAT you ( we, me, or anyone ) really
are doing,
then no one will ever need to get into these problems
about whether something is or is not 'hand made'...or just how 'Hands' had
anything whatever to do with it.
If we take pause a moment and think, to inventory what we do, and what
mediated our Work, we can resolve all these
consternations or contentions -
What are we doing?
What do we use TO do it, which mediates the "hand"?
It is that simple.
If something mediates between the Hand and the Work, then we may say what it
something is. Then others ( if they care, or are in some way interested, )
will know ( all they need to, to feel satisfied, about ) 'how' something was
made.
If nothing mediates between the Hand and the Work, and the Work is directly
done with "hands", then, it is "Hand Made".
Making things with Hand Tools or external sources of power, can not really
be said to be "Hand Made'
without a 'slippery slope' being entered...especially when no qualifying
explainations are given to let the phrase have any right or real meaning at
all to clearify just 'how' this is so for any given item or product.
What about all sorts of other Hand Tools? Cad Cam? The knob of a record
player? The button on a Punch Press?
It all goes to hell instantly.
Hand made Music! I push a button on the Cee-Dee player...
Etc...
There are Hands...
There are Hand Tools...
There are Power Tools...
There are Stationary Power Tools.
There are mediacys of whatever sort, or external sources of power being
applied, with or between 'Hand' and resultant product.
Let others decide for themselves with a simple description of process that
names the kind of process it is, and the mediarys or power sources the
process uses, so they may tell if your or my or anyone's honestly
described process IS 'Hand' enough for whatever their interest in the 'Hand'
matter
may be...if they have any interest at all, and usually almost no one does,
really.
Otherwise the phrase "Hand Made", when mis-used, as it very nearly always
is, is at best a
figurative allusion to 'hands' having had 'something' to do with some part
of a making-process - a slippery-slope of ambiguity or worse if
stepped onto.
Hence, I have pretty well avoided the phrase from the beginning...but for
some very seldom casual or careful use.
"Hand Forged" is forgivable, ( one would not say 'Hand Made' to denote Hand
Forged items, since Iron when worked 'Hot', is "hot" and one would injure
themselves trying to bend or shape it with one's Hands, ) since it
distinguishes the product from a Drop
Forged or Steam Hammered or held by Hand with Tongs under a Steam Hammer, or
other hot forging methods. Or, distinguishes a
product catagorically from a Casting, Investment Casting, Rolled, Stamped,
or Cold Worked item etc.
This would be equal to saying "Hand Thrown" as for Pottery...or, 'Hand
Typed'
as for Typewriter situations, vis a vie 'word processors'...
Hand Made always needs to tell us "how" the "Hand" used whatever mediarys,
or external sources of power, to 'Make'... or else it is useless, or worse.
Anyway...
Seems to me...
Best wishes,
Phil
l v
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris trabka"
> There has been quite a bit of discussion on "handmade" and slipcasting.
> However, when I searched the archives for any comments as to how extruding
> fits in with "handmade" I found no hits this year.
>
> Thus the question; Is extruded handmade?
>
> Chris
John Rodgers on fri 18 may 07
you will..."
Phil,
Nicely said, well expressed.
In practice, in public, I rarely ever refer to "hand made" in discussion
of my work.
For both my slip cast work, wheel thrown pottery, and other clay work I
always speak thus
"These are my own designs, and I executed all the work."
'Nuff said. No need to beat the client with all the nitty-gritty details
of the production. There is an old saying in sales - "never teach a pig
to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig". That about says it.
Most don't give a poop on how it was made. They are interested in how it
will affect their lives.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> Extruded may be 'Hand Extruded' if one pulls the Handle of the
> Extruder 'by
> hand'...or has a foot ansd Sturup method, or if a Hydraulic Extruder
> actuated by a Foot Pedal, then...
>
>
> "Made via an Extruder whose Handle is pulled 'By Hand'...or as may be,
> "Made
> from
> sub-assemblys which were produced on a Hand-operated Extruder and cut
> up or
> otherwise maipulated and fitted by hand, to form a whole."
>
>
> Do you mean extrusions AS product? Or as manipulated components or
> assemblys
> of a 'Hand
> Building' process?
>
> If you ( we, me, or anyone) just say WHAT you ( we, me, or anyone )
> really
> are doing,
> then no one will ever need to get into these problems
> about whether something is or is not 'hand made'...or just how 'Hands'
> had
> anything whatever to do with it.
>
>
> If we take pause a moment and think, to inventory what we do, and what
> mediated our Work, we can resolve all these
> consternations or contentions -
>
>
> What are we doing?
>
> What do we use TO do it, which mediates the "hand"?
>
>
>
> It is that simple.
>
>
>
> If something mediates between the Hand and the Work, then we may say
> what it
> something is. Then others ( if they care, or are in some way
> interested, )
> will know ( all they need to, to feel satisfied, about ) 'how'
> something was
> made.
>
> If nothing mediates between the Hand and the Work, and the Work is
> directly
> done with "hands", then, it is "Hand Made".
>
>
>
> Making things with Hand Tools or external sources of power, can not
> really
> be said to be "Hand Made'
> without a 'slippery slope' being entered...especially when no qualifying
> explainations are given to let the phrase have any right or real
> meaning at
> all to clearify just 'how' this is so for any given item or product.
>
> What about all sorts of other Hand Tools? Cad Cam? The knob of a record
> player? The button on a Punch Press?
>
> It all goes to hell instantly.
>
> Hand made Music! I push a button on the Cee-Dee player...
>
>
> Etc...
>
>
> There are Hands...
>
> There are Hand Tools...
>
> There are Power Tools...
>
> There are Stationary Power Tools.
>
> There are mediacys of whatever sort, or external sources of power being
> applied, with or between 'Hand' and resultant product.
>
>
>
> Let others decide for themselves with a simple description of process
> that
> names the kind of process it is, and the mediarys or power sources the
> process uses, so they may tell if your or my or anyone's honestly
> described process IS 'Hand' enough for whatever their interest in the
> 'Hand'
> matter
> may be...if they have any interest at all, and usually almost no one
> does,
> really.
>
>
>
> Otherwise the phrase "Hand Made", when mis-used, as it very nearly always
> is, is at best a
> figurative allusion to 'hands' having had 'something' to do with some
> part
> of a making-process - a slippery-slope of ambiguity or worse if
> stepped onto.
>
> Hence, I have pretty well avoided the phrase from the beginning...but for
> some very seldom casual or careful use.
>
>
> "Hand Forged" is forgivable, ( one would not say 'Hand Made' to denote
> Hand
> Forged items, since Iron when worked 'Hot', is "hot" and one would injure
> themselves trying to bend or shape it with one's Hands, ) since it
> distinguishes the product from a Drop
> Forged or Steam Hammered or held by Hand with Tongs under a Steam
> Hammer, or
> other hot forging methods. Or, distinguishes a
> product catagorically from a Casting, Investment Casting, Rolled,
> Stamped,
> or Cold Worked item etc.
>
> This would be equal to saying "Hand Thrown" as for Pottery...or, 'Hand
> Typed'
> as for Typewriter situations, vis a vie 'word processors'...
>
> Hand Made always needs to tell us "how" the "Hand" used whatever
> mediarys,
> or external sources of power, to 'Make'... or else it is useless, or
> worse.
>
>
>
> Anyway...
>
> Seems to me...
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> Phil
> l v
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris trabka"
>
>
>> There has been quite a bit of discussion on "handmade" and slipcasting.
>> However, when I searched the archives for any comments as to how
>> extruding
>> fits in with "handmade" I found no hits this year.
>>
>> Thus the question; Is extruded handmade?
>>
>> Chris
>
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>
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>
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>
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> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
Kathi LeSueur on fri 18 may 07
you will..."
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
>
>
> Extruded may be 'Hand Extruded' if one pulls the Handle of the
> Extruder 'by
> hand'...or has a foot and Sturup method, or if a Hydraulic Extruder
> actuated by a Foot Pedal, then...
>
> "Made via an Extruder whose Handle is pulled 'By Hand'...or as may be,
> "Made
> fromsub-assemblys which were produced on a Hand-operated Extruder and
> cut up or
> otherwise maipulated and fitted by hand, to form a whole."
>
> If you ( we, me, or anyone) just say WHAT you ( we, me, or anyone )
> really
> are doing,
> then no one will ever need to get into these problems
> about whether something is or is not 'hand made'...or just how 'Hands' had
> anything whatever to do with it.>>>
It seems to me that in the end what this argument is all about is people
deciding why what they do is ok and why what others do is not. I could
care less whether an extrusion is hand pulled. Actually, I do care. I
extruder off of my pug mill. So, my extrusions are pushed. I frankly
don't care if you throw, extrude, slip cast, or RAM press. I care about
the finished product. Pressed work can look dead or it can be finished
in such a way as to be as beautiful and exciting as hand thrown. The
same with slip cast pieces. The same with thrown.
Some people have to make a living. They have families to support. Being
a full-time potter is hard on the body. People look to minimize the wear
and tear on their bodies as much as possible. That's why they have a
good pug mill and an electric slab roller . That's why they find pieces
that they can make with a minimum of effort. I don't care as long as the
finishing and attention to detail is the same as their other work.
"Mass-produced"? I've been making the same style of mug for twenty
years. It's evolved and been refined over the years. But, it's the same
design. I'm sure I've made thousands. If that's not mass-produced, what
is? There's a reason why so many people quit potting in their fifties.
Their bodies have given out because they tried to be such a purist that
they never used anything that would make their life easier.
I hate it when production potters are denigrated because they make the
same thing over and over. I watch "one-of-a-kind" potters making the
same things over and over also. It's just that they display only one at
a time on pedestals instead of shelves. At show after show they have the
same pieces. If it's on a pedestal it's art. If it's on a shelf it's
pottery.
I wish the pottery police would stop to consider that we all make
choices according to our needs. Not everyone can or wants to live where
they can sell all of their work out of their studio. Some people love
doing art fairs. Others hate them. Others have no choice. Have a major
shoulder problem and you'll start to think twice about using power
assisted technology. Sometimes the choice is to give up some of the
"purity" in order to continue doing what you love. Either that or go be
a greeter at Wal-mart.
Kathi
>
Kathi LeSueur on sat 19 may 07
you will..." - Kathi's mentions
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> Hi Kathi,
>
> Where do you think I am at then, in all this?
>
>
> Phil
> l v
>
>
Hell if I know. What difference does it make.
Kathi
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