tony clennell on thu 26 jul 07
I went to my local clay supplier today and on the
bulletin board was our Jim and Cindy's pottery Out of
the Fire/Down to Earth Pottery business for sale.
Listed were specially formulated clays and glazes,
huge internet presence, customer list, and on went the
list.
You are your pottery and there is nothing to sell when
you leave but physical assets- building, machinery
etc. The goodwill and customer lists you have
developed are not worth a plug nickel.
Sheila and I sold our pottery Gleason Brook Pottery to
a young upcoming potter. He bought the assets and was
in business the day after he moved in. he paid zero,
naddo, zilch for the reputation we had built up over
20 years. If you think someone is going to pay you for
goodwill as an asset you're outta your mind.
Building up a pottery is about your own personal
reputation and I am in serious doubt whether or not ya
can sell it. I suspect not. Our customers want our
work. they will drop by our location if we leave but
if our work ain't there I'm doubtful of their
patronage. Why would another potter pay me for my
website, customer list and clay and glaze formulas????
It's a mystery to me.
Tell me I'm wrong Jim and that I gave away another
fortune.
Best,
Tony
Tony Clennell
Studio potter
http://sourcherrypottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
Lee Love on thu 26 jul 07
Threw in the rain today, under the maple tree. Hey, a break in the
90F temps (dopped to 80F). Mixed Craig's feldspar granuales with
Wendt's Helmer porcelain. Excited to see how close it comes to
co-Shigaraki. I just wedged the feldspar in until it felt right.
Cut with wire to see what kind of stones to clay ratio I had.
Boy, the Leach wheel is easier than the Korean kickwheel.
Can't wait to see the tests!
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Mike Gordon on thu 26 jul 07
Tony said.....Why would another potter pay me for my
website, customer list and clay and glaze formulas????
It's a mystery to me.
My question is, why would you give him your web site & glaze formulas
and customer list? Sell him the equipment, period. Let him come up with
his own formulas, & web site.He should be able to build his own
customer list with time. OR did I miss something? Wondering..... Mike
Gordon
David Hendley on thu 26 jul 07
Tony is correct. Starting a business as a "studio potter" is not
really a business at all, at least in the way the word would be
used on Wall Street or in Forbes magazine.
The whole point of owning a business to the MBA-types is to
build a brand that makes money and can eventually be sold
for a profit. It ain't gonna happen with studio pottery.
Once the potter is gone, the business is only worth the value
of the physical assets, and, because they are used, they will
be valued at "Thrifty Nickel"-prices.
The reason a studio pottery is not a business is because it does
not make any money. Sure, you may hear some potter brag
that he "made 50-grand last year". First, ask him if that is
"gross" or "net". Then ask him how much he was paid for
actually making the pottery and what his salary was for
running the business.
You will get a blank stare.
See, a real business makes money on top of the wages and
salaries paid to run the business. The typical studio potter
pays himself nothing for all the work he does, and hopes that
enough money will be left at the end of the month to pay
the bills and have a big night out at TGI Friday's and the
Cinema Triple.
A really successful potter can eventually rely on a pretty
consistent income stream, but the actual business still makes
no money - As soon as the potter quits working the income
will dry up.
David Hendley
Maydelle, Texas
david(at)farmpots(dot)com
http://www.farmpots.com
----- Original Message -----
>I went to my local clay supplier today and on the
> bulletin board was our Jim and Cindy's pottery Out of
> the Fire/Down to Earth Pottery business for sale.
> Listed were specially formulated clays and glazes,
> huge internet presence, customer list, and on went the
> list.
> You are your pottery and there is nothing to sell when
> you leave but physical assets- building, machinery
> etc. The goodwill and customer lists you have
> developed are not worth a plug nickel.
Lee Love on thu 26 jul 07
On 7/26/07, David Hendley wrote:
> A really successful potter can eventually rely on a pretty
> consistent income stream, but the actual business still makes
> no money - As soon as the potter quits working the income
> will dry up.
Imagine if all operations were run this way: so they supported
the folks working them but did not make people doing nothing wealthy!
What a concept!
No free lunch! ;^)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Victoria E. Hamilton on fri 27 jul 07
Wayne,
Thank you for this. Thank you a thousand times!
Vicki Hamilton, Nitwit
Millennia Antica Pottery
Seattle, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of WJ Seidl
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 5:06 AM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Fire Sale
Ah David, there are days I smile too infrequently.
Thanks to your post, today will not be one of those days.
Here's one for you:
A potter was visited by the local State Labor Board rep. He asked the
potter how many employees he had and what they were paid on average.
The potter said "Well, there's the apprentice. I pay him $600 a week, and
he helps around the studio, helps with the firings.
Then, there's the housekeeper. I pay her $400 a week, and she keeps the
house and does all the cooking.
Then, there's the nitwit. He makes about $18, works seven days a week like
a dog from before sunrise to well after sunset, and does everything else
around the place, including help with the firings."
The Board rep said "Oh, then it's the nitwit I want to talk to ."
The potter replied "That would be me."
Best,
Wayne Seidl
"nitwit" implies at least _some_ wit
David Hendley wrote:
> Tony is correct. Starting a business as a "studio potter" is not
> really a business at all, at least in the way the word would be used
> on Wall Street or in Forbes magazine.
> The whole point of owning a business to the MBA-types is to build a
> brand that makes money and can eventually be sold for a profit. It
> ain't gonna happen with studio pottery.
> Once the potter is gone, the business is only worth the value of the
> physical assets, and, because they are used, they will be valued at
> "Thrifty Nickel"-prices.
>
> The reason a studio pottery is not a business is because it does not
> make any money. Sure, you may hear some potter brag that he "made
> 50-grand last year". First, ask him if that is "gross" or "net". Then
> ask him how much he was paid for actually making the pottery and what
> his salary was for running the business.
> You will get a blank stare.
> See, a real business makes money on top of the wages and salaries paid
> to run the business. The typical studio potter pays himself nothing
> for all the work he does, and hopes that enough money will be left at
> the end of the month to pay the bills and have a big night out at TGI
> Friday's and the Cinema Triple.
> A really successful potter can eventually rely on a pretty consistent
> income stream, but the actual business still makes no money - As soon
> as the potter quits working the income will dry up.
>
> David Hendley
> Maydelle, Texas
> david(at)farmpots(dot)com
> http://www.farmpots.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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Jim Willett on fri 27 jul 07
Tony , I sent this post to you by email but I'll put it in here as well..
"I'm guessing your pottery supply house doesn't clear their bulletin board
very often, and obviously you missed a few posts back when we were going
through some trying times last year. I'm not gonna argue any philosophical
matters with you but we came to our senses and kept our name.....as you
might recall from two weeks ago when we talked about "What's in a Name".
We are still potters and we have relocated to Jasper Avenue where we now
have a retail gallery as well as the studio. Take a look at our web site
for more information. Oh, and next time you are at your local clay
supplier tell them they can take down the poster. We emailed everyone at
the time but obviously they missed it."
Jim
Out of the Fire Studio
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
Anne Webb on fri 27 jul 07
Now Jim, do you consider your business a factory or a studio pottery? I =
tend to agree with Tony in that people are buying the potter as much as the=
work. A studio pottery is a unique kind of business. Items are handmade,=
not machined. They convey a potter's character and nuances. After your w=
ife stops throwing and you hand the business down to your kids (or sell it =
to whomever).. what then? Short of switching your production over to ram pr=
esses, jolly jiggers or casting methods, the work produced by someone else =
inevitably will not be the same. Someone may be tempted to buy an "establis=
hed" and built up pottery, but once the business changes hands is almost li=
ke starting at square one in some respects. That I do believe. They are pa=
ying for the equipment, the location, and the mailing list. "goodwill" an=
d "reputation" are earned, it can't just be handed over or bought. Cheers.A=
nneJim Willett wrote:>. I'm betting in another 7 years Out of the Fir=
e Studio will be a> business that we can leave to our kids and it won't cur=
l up and die> because Cindy is not throwing pots anymore.>> Jim Wille=
tt> Out of the Fire Studio(tm)> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
_________________________________________________________________
Missed the show?=A0 Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.
http://liveearth.msn.com=
Anne Webb on fri 27 jul 07
Jim.. I think the bottles Tony was referring to were actually the "Wine bot=
tle beeswax candles" on your site's "photo show" slide show. > Date: Fri, 2=
7 Jul 2007 13:45:20 -0500> From: jim.willett@TELUS.NET>> > On Fri, 27 Jul 2=
007 05:50:32 -0700, tony clennell > wrote:> > >Jim: N=
ope, I didn't miss the posts ....(snip)... I must say the> >glass bottles w=
ith grapes on them and the Back to> >Africa addition to the gallery is alot=
like every> >craft store/winery boutique here on the Niargara> >peninsula.=
Very hard indeed to find a good store with> >local handmade items.> >> > I=
'm sorry Tony.> I would have replied sooner but I was trying to> find the "=
glass bottles with grapes on them" you referred to. Must have> been some ot=
her site.
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!=A0=A0
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=3Dchick_wlmailtextlink=
Jim Willett on fri 27 jul 07
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:07:42 -0500, David Hendley
wrote:
>Tony is correct. Starting a business as a "studio potter" is not
>really a business at all, at least in the way the word would be
>used on Wall Street or in Forbes magazine.
>The whole point of owning a business to the MBA-types is to
>build a brand that makes money and can eventually be sold
>for a profit. It ain't gonna happen with studio pottery.
>Once the potter is gone, the business is only worth the value
>of the physical assets, and, because they are used, they will
>be valued at "Thrifty Nickel"-prices.
>
>The reason a studio pottery is not a business is because it does
>not make any money. Sure, you may hear some potter brag
>that he "made 50-grand last year". First, ask him if that is
>"gross" or "net". Then ask him how much he was paid for
>actually making the pottery and what his salary was for
>running the business.
>You will get a blank stare.
>See, a real business makes money on top of the wages and
>salaries paid to run the business. The typical studio potter
>pays himself nothing for all the work he does, and hopes that
>enough money will be left at the end of the month to pay
>the bills and have a big night out at TGI Friday's and the
>Cinema Triple.
>A really successful potter can eventually rely on a pretty
>consistent income stream, but the actual business still makes
>no money - As soon as the potter quits working the income
>will dry up.
>
>>
>
>
>
David,
I've always been content to let you ramble on about things without
replying to you directly but this time I have to say something...Out of
the Fire Studio(tm) is a successful business. We did make money at
wholesale and while I will not quote you my financial statement, had we
physically been able to continue another year at the pace we were going we
would have been in the position of hiring staff and continuing to grow the
business. At the time we decided to cut back and move into retail we were
supplying pottery to over 40 retailers and one catalogue business as well
as our internet sales. We did have a bottom line of "NET" profit and there
is every reason to believe the business could have expanded further.
Here in the city, we have continued our pottery business, moved to
the "Gallery Walk" area of Edmonton, added a gallery where we not only
sell our pottery but that of other potters as well as glass, African
sculpture , and fine art, and Out of the Fire Studio(tm) is recognized as
a business and a place to shop, not just an expensive past time. Online
you can't avoid us. We continue to sell wholesale to a number of clients
and we continue to sell retail though the internet to collectors around
the world. Perhaps if some studio potters set their aim a little higher,
more of them would be successful at generating income of the "Net"
variety. The problem might not be too high a target but a too low aim. Now
mind you we do use electric kilns, and the wheels are electric too, and so
are the lights, and we even have air conditioning. I sold the big van and
am driving a Nissan X-Trail which suits our new lifestyle better and saves
on gas. I'm betting in another 7 years Out of the Fire Studio will be a
business that we can leave to our kids and it won't curl up and die
because Cindy is not throwing pots anymore.
Don't cry your "Potters Gotta Suffer" blues to me. I don't buy it.
Jim Willett
Out of the Fire Studio(tm)
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
http://www.howtomakepottery.com
http://www.edmontonrivervalley.com
Jim Willett on fri 27 jul 07
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:04:16 -0700, Mike Gordon
wrote:
>Tony said.....Why would another potter pay me for my
>website, customer list and clay and glaze formulas????
>It's a mystery to me.
>My question is, why would you give him your web site & glaze formulas
>and customer list? Sell him the equipment, period. Let him come up with
>his own formulas, & web site.He should be able to build his own
>customer list with time. OR did I miss something? Wondering..... Mike
>Gordon
>
Yes you missed quite a lot Mike. If you are selling a successful business
the website especially can be very valuable.And it's "sell" not "give"
After seven years our website is impossible to miss on the web.Someone
wanting to carry on as Out of the Fire Studio(tm) would find it very
valuable to have that ranking as they continued to build the business. In
order to carry on the business, had we decided to sell it, established
wholesale customers would have realistically expected to be able to
continue to buy pottery with the same clay colour and glaze combinations
as what they had bought previously.And of course you sell the customer
list. At that point it's not a competition...if we were to sell to someone
we would want to help them carry on...not say "Here you go...lets see you
do what we've done." And lastly you missed the capitals on Fire Sale which
would have put this conversation in the main thread. My reply to Tony
where he started that thread should make it clear we are not selling Out
of the Fire Studio(tm) at this time. A year ago or more we had had a
couple of bad days, we were hurting and we made a spur of the moment
decision which we regretted a couple of weeks later and which we withdrew.
Picked up our socks and carried on.
Jim Willett
Out of the Fire Studio(tm)
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
http://www.howtomakepottery.com
http://www.edmontonrivervalley.com
WJ Seidl on fri 27 jul 07
Ah David, there are days I smile too infrequently.
Thanks to your post, today will not be one of those days.
Here's one for you:
A potter was visited by the local State Labor Board rep. He asked the
potter how many employees he had
and what they were paid on average.
The potter said "Well, there's the apprentice. I pay him $600 a week,
and he helps around the studio, helps with the firings.
Then, there's the housekeeper. I pay her $400 a week, and she keeps the
house and does all the cooking.
Then, there's the nitwit. He makes about $18, works seven days a week
like a dog from before sunrise to well after sunset,
and does everything else around the place, including help with the firings."
The Board rep said "Oh, then it's the nitwit I want to talk to ."
The potter replied "That would be me."
Best,
Wayne Seidl
"nitwit" implies at least _some_ wit
David Hendley wrote:
> Tony is correct. Starting a business as a "studio potter" is not
> really a business at all, at least in the way the word would be
> used on Wall Street or in Forbes magazine.
> The whole point of owning a business to the MBA-types is to
> build a brand that makes money and can eventually be sold
> for a profit. It ain't gonna happen with studio pottery.
> Once the potter is gone, the business is only worth the value
> of the physical assets, and, because they are used, they will
> be valued at "Thrifty Nickel"-prices.
>
> The reason a studio pottery is not a business is because it does
> not make any money. Sure, you may hear some potter brag
> that he "made 50-grand last year". First, ask him if that is
> "gross" or "net". Then ask him how much he was paid for
> actually making the pottery and what his salary was for
> running the business.
> You will get a blank stare.
> See, a real business makes money on top of the wages and
> salaries paid to run the business. The typical studio potter
> pays himself nothing for all the work he does, and hopes that
> enough money will be left at the end of the month to pay
> the bills and have a big night out at TGI Friday's and the
> Cinema Triple.
> A really successful potter can eventually rely on a pretty
> consistent income stream, but the actual business still makes
> no money - As soon as the potter quits working the income
> will dry up.
>
> David Hendley
> Maydelle, Texas
> david(at)farmpots(dot)com
> http://www.farmpots.com
>
>
Rogier Donker on fri 27 jul 07
Hey David :-)
Thank you for alerting newcomers to the realities of being a self
employed potter. Indeed, when the potter stops potting, the
"business" dries up! Been there ,done that! ;-)
Rogier (in semi-retirement)
See us on the web at http://www.donkerstudio.org
Donald Burroughs on fri 27 jul 07
I would definitely agree with Tony. A reputation and personal
aesthetic/style are not tangibles which can be bought or sold like a
commodity. So unless one is a drone capable of replicating the former
owner's style and way of working, the only thing of any real value are the
physical assets Tony speaks of.
Don Burroughs
tony clennell on fri 27 jul 07
Jim: Nope, I didn't miss the posts but you have
obviously missed about a decade of Rambin Dave Hendlys
posts. Never have I heard David cryin the blues about
the life of a potter. And since ya always like to tell
us how many pounds and how many you make a day I think
if I have read Ramblin Dave over the years the message
has always been consistently clear "It's not what you
make, it's what you keep!"
Retail will help you make fewer pots. I must say the
glass bottles with grapes on them and the Back to
Africa addition to the gallery is alot like every
craft store/winery boutique here on the Niargara
peninsula. Very hard indeed to find a good store with
local handmade items.
I'll take your flyer down next time I'm in the clay
store.
Cheers,
Tony
>
> "I'm guessing your pottery supply house doesn't
> clear their bulletin board
> very often, and obviously you missed a few posts
> back when we were going
> through some trying times last year. I'm not gonna
> argue any philosophical
> matters with you but we came to our senses and kept
> our name....
Tony Clennell
Studio potter
http://sourcherrypottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
Michael Wendt on fri 27 jul 07
Generally, what has been said is true with
a few exceptions: consider a special glaze
like Mt St Helens Ash.
I wager any one of you could come here,
learn to glaze with it and start selling it in
your area with the same success I have had
with it since 1980.
The key is historic significance and awareness.
Aside from such a glaze or perhaps some
other "special secret product" I agree the
potter is the business.
See the ash glaze at my web site listed below
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
USA
208-746-3724
http://www.wendtpottery.com
wendtpot@lewiston.com
Chris Campbell on fri 27 jul 07
>Why would another potter pay
>me for my website, customer list
>and clay and glaze formulas???
I would not pay for the clay and
glaze formulas or the website ...
but I would pay for the customer
mailing list.
Heck yeah!
I know how hard it is to build a
solid mailing list and if I were new
to the area ... wow, what a bonus.
I can't think of a better way to kick off
a campaign to let them all know there
is a new potter in town.
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh NC 27615-2233
Designs in Colored Porcelain
1-800-652-1008
Fax : 919-676-2062
website: www.ccpottery.com
wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Jim Willett on fri 27 jul 07
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 05:50:32 -0700, tony clennell
wrote:
>Jim: Nope, I didn't miss the posts ....(snip)... I must say the
>glass bottles with grapes on them and the Back to
>Africa addition to the gallery is alot like every
>craft store/winery boutique here on the Niargara
>peninsula. Very hard indeed to find a good store with
>local handmade items.
>
I'm sorry Tony.
I would have replied sooner but I was trying to
find the "glass bottles with grapes on them" you referred to. Must have
been some other site.The only glass bottle we have here is an empty wine
bottle showing how the stoneware wine cooler we make works. The "Back to
Africa" stuff you refer to is sculpture personally purchased by a friend
of ours from some of the most renowned sculptors in Zimbabwe. Prices range
from $5000 to $30000 and I'm guessing your local boutique or craft store
doesn't have a lot of them sitting around.
What we do have is glass by Ion Tamaian who is one of the most
respected glass blowers in Romania.His little trinkets range in price from
$500 to $1450, again probably not at your local craft store.
We also have glass by Vancouver glass blower Braden Hammond who while not
local is certainly Canadian.
Yes it can sometimes be hard to find good locally made items. Glass in
particular. There is only one glass studio in the city and they prefer to
show privately or at the Craft Council. Our painters are all Albertan. Our
pottery is either made in the studio here or from Junichi Tanaka in Maple
Ridge B.C. and soon we will have a great selection from Lilach Lotan
another BC potter.The Alberta Beeswax candles are also very local as they
are made by a friend of ours here in Edmonton.
We are not a "Craft Store". We are a gallery and studio. If someone wants
an Alberta Crafts Store then they can wander over a couple of blocks to
the Alberta Craft Council shop and select from all sorts of craft items.
It's not that hard to find.
If you didn't miss the posts then why did you write the "Fire Sale" item
that started this thread? Short term memory failing? Must be all that wood
smoke.
As far as my talking about what we make and how many, I think everyone on
the list has read one or two of your missives where you talk about the
tough times on the train and how many pots you had to get done for this or
that deadline and how lucky you were to have been able to score another
big sale. Everybody does it. Sorry it bugs you when I do. Well...not
really.
Jim Willett
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
Jamie Yocono on fri 27 jul 07
Maybe I'm entering into a conversation I have no business commenting upon,
but I read with interest about selling a pottery, which includes selling
recipes, customers, and equipment. I know we think we have the newest and
best and most ORIGINAL pottery, but isn't that the point of working hard and
developing our own "brand"? We're not going to live forever, nor do most of
us want to work forever. So isn't selling it sort of the end destination?
Here's an example- my parents were in the restaurant business. They were
successful, had great food which ended up building a huge customer base.
Customers = profits. They put money back into the business- buying
equipment, updating the interior, buying the property next door for more
parking, etc. When the decided to sell, they sold the "business" - which
entailed recipes, customers, every pot and pan and all the equipment- from
the stoves to the coolers. And they made a buttload of money for all their
hard work. The only thing they retained is the building, which they rent to
the new restaurant owner.
All of this is to illustrate- when Tony wrote " Sheila and I sold our
pottery Gleason Brook Pottery to a young upcoming potter. He bought the
assets and was in business the day after he moved in. he paid zero, naddo,
zilch for the reputation we had built up over 20 years. If you think someone
is going to pay you for goodwill as an asset you're outta your mind."- well,
frankly, I think Tony is wrong.
Isn't that the IDEA of selling a business? You work hard, develop a product
and a loyal following, and then when it's time to move on (for age reasons,
or health reasons, or whatever) you sell it and are done. If your selling
price doesn't reflect all your hard work, then it's a shame, but no one's
fault. I know selling pots is different from selling pizzas, but it's the
same concept. People either like your product, or they don't.
In my parent's case, they priced their business with a dollar amount for the
"business" (customers, good will that's been developed) and then a dollar
amount for the brick and mortar stuff. Added them together, and that was
the selling price. And yes.... the new owner had a packed house the next
day, just as it was the previous day, when we owned it. Since he bought the
business, he bought everything that it entails.
We left a giant bottle of Advil in the office for him, he was going to need
it. Restaurant work is HARD work.
Jamie in Vegas
Elizabeth Priddy on fri 27 jul 07
Yes, everyone on here has heard both of you and a few others=0Aengaging in =
that particular pissing match. It's just as ugly no=0Amatter who is starti=
ng or engaging in it. It isn't what the list is about=0Aor for, in my opin=
ion.=0A=0AI, I am sure, am equally guilty of obnoxious behavior from time t=
o=0Atime, and I am repentant. But you guys should probably take this outsi=
de=0Aat this point.=0A=0ATony Clennell should definitely not be your model =
of correct or=0Aappropriate behavior. Ask him, he would probably agree. M=
e, either.=0AI am as bad as any of us here, but the lowest of examples shou=
ld not be =0Ayour measure.=0A =0AElizabeth Priddy=0ABeaufort, NC - USA=0A =
=0ANatural Instincts Conference Information:=0Ahttp://downtothepottershouse=
.com/NaturalInstincts.html=0Ahttp://www.elizabethpriddy.com=0Ahttp://www.fl=
ickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ji=
m Willett jim.willett@TELUS.NET=0A=0A...=0AAs far as my talking about what =
we make and how many, I think everyone on=0Athe list has read one or two of=
your missives where you talk about the=0Atough times on the train and how =
many pots you had to get done for this or=0Athat deadline and how lucky you=
were to have been able to score another=0Abig sale. Everybody does it. Sor=
ry it bugs you when I do. Well...not=0Areally.=0A=0AJim Willett=0A=0A=0A =
=0A____________________________________________________________________=
________________=0APinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. =
=0Ahttp://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
Rose Bauer on fri 27 jul 07
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:45:20 -0500, Jim Willett wrote:
>We are not a "Craft Store". We are a gallery and studio. If someone wants
>an Alberta Crafts Store then they can wander over a couple of blocks to
>the Alberta Craft Council shop and select from all sorts of craft items.
>It's not that hard to find.
John Chalke, Barb Tipton, Greg Payce, Katrina Chaytor, Les Manning, Bradley Keyes, Carol & Richard
Selfridge, Christian Barr, Enzien Kufeld, John Elder, Diane Sullivan, Sam Uhlick ...
..... all current members of the Alberta Craft Council whose work has recently been shown at the
Craft Council Gallery.....
.... definitely worth a wander up the street I'd say.
Oh and, just because something is expensive.... doesn't nececessarily mean it's good.
cheers
rose bauer
tony clennell on fri 27 jul 07
Dear Rose: Hear, hear! Now that's a store I'd visit.
Probably a list of the best makers in Alberta. there
are pots and then there is Nancy's Nibbles and Knits.
Best,
Tony
--- Rose Bauer wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 13:45:20 -0500, Jim Willett
> wrote:
>
> >We are not a "Craft Store". We are a gallery and
> studio. If someone wants
> >an Alberta Crafts Store then they can wander over a
> couple of blocks to
> >the Alberta Craft Council shop and select from all
> sorts of craft items.
> >It's not that hard to find.
>
> John Chalke, Barb Tipton, Greg Payce, Katrina
> Chaytor, Les Manning, Bradley Keyes, Carol & Richard
> Selfridge, Christian Barr, Enzien Kufeld, John
> Elder, Diane Sullivan, Sam Uhlick ...
>
> ..... all current members of the Alberta Craft
> Council whose work has recently been shown at the
> Craft Council Gallery.....
>
> .... definitely worth a wander up the street I'd
> say.
>
> Oh and, just because something is expensive....
> doesn't nececessarily mean it's good.
>
> cheers
> rose bauer
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
Tony Clennell
Studio potter
http://sourcherrypottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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Jim Willett on fri 27 jul 07
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:41:46 -0500, Rose Bauer
wrote:
>
>John Chalke, Barb Tipton, Greg Payce, Katrina Chaytor, Les Manning,
Bradley Keyes, Carol & Richard
>Selfridge, Christian Barr, Enzien Kufeld, John Elder, Diane Sullivan, Sam
Uhlick ...
>
>..... all current members of the Alberta Craft Council whose work has
recently been shown at the
>Craft Council Gallery.....
>
>.... definitely worth a wander up the street I'd say.
>
>Oh and, just because something is expensive.... doesn't nececessarily
mean it's good.
>
>cheers
>rose bauer
>
You are right on both counts Rose, and we are happy to have our work there
as well.
Have a nice weekend.
Jim
Out of the Fire
tony clennell on fri 27 jul 07
Elizabeth is absoutely correct! I should not be your
model of correct behaviour. It would disappoint me
if I were.
I have friends in the lowest of places.
I have repeated this time and time again on clayart-
You can shit the fans but not the players. The players
know who the players are!
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad to the bone!
Tony
--- Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
>
> Tony Clennell should definitely not be your model of
> correct or
> appropriate behavior. Ask him, he would probably
> agree. Me, either.
> I am as bad as any of us here, but the lowest of
> examples should not be
> your measure.
>
> Elizabeth Priddy
> Beaufort, NC - USA
>
> Natural Instincts Conference Information:
>
http://downtothepottershouse.com/NaturalInstincts.html
> http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jim Willett jim.willett@TELUS.NET
>
> ...
> As far as my talking about what we make and how
> many, I think everyone on
> the list has read one or two of your missives where
> you talk about the
> tough times on the train and how many pots you had
> to get done for this or
> that deadline and how lucky you were to have been
> able to score another
> big sale. Everybody does it. Sorry it bugs you when
> I do. Well...not
> really.
>
> Jim Willett
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you
> sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change
> your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots@pclink.com.
>
Tony Clennell
Studio potter
http://sourcherrypottery.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.
http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
WJ Seidl on fri 27 jul 07
Hey! I represent that remark!
ROFL
Wayne Seidl
Elizabeth Priddy wrote:
> SNIP
> but the lowest of examples should not be
> your measure.
>
> Elizabeth Priddy
> Beaufort, NC - USA
>
>
Anita Rickenberg on sat 28 jul 07
I had a discussion along similar lines a few weeks ago with a good =
friend
who is a hair stylist. Very much an artist and very successful with 30
years in his own salon. He was talking about what his business would be
worth if he sold it--he said he would be selling the building and
fixtures--that the good will, customer list, and name aren't salable =
because
the customer is going to a person, not a business. With my backgound in
business, it's the first time I'd considered that what is true for a
corporation manufacturing mass-produced goods doesn't apply to a =
business
where the value to the customer comes from the vision and ability of the
person who creates the product. Whether the product is a great hair =
style,
art, or ceramic vase, the talent to create it can't be sold or bought. =20
When the goal and the reality is to have a product where the one =
millionth
item rolling off the production line is identical to the first, then the
customer often doesn't know (or care) who owns the manufacturing plant. =
All
you really care about is that the Campbell's tomato soup you buy this =
year
is the same product as the can you bought last year. Companies are =
bought
and sold all the time with a dollar value assigned to the customer list,
good will, and other intangibles that impact the bottom line. Without
reading the very fine print you probably don't know who really owns many =
of
the well-know product brands you regularly buy. But when the product =
is
the result of an individual's creativity, you are buying something =
unique
that you connect with in some way.=20
Anita
Vince Pitelka on sat 28 jul 07
Tony Clennell wrote:
> You are your pottery and there is nothing to sell when
> you leave but physical assets- building, machinery
> etc. The goodwill and customer lists you have
> developed are not worth a plug nickel.
I gotta agree with Tony. There is something incredibly creepy about an
established potter wanting to sell their glaze formulas, forms, customer
list, and web presence. Maybe sell it to the Chinese, although they woul=
d
just copy the work without permission if they were so-inclined.
Selling the "persona" of a pottery is like selling one's soul, as if
another potter could simply put on the "Out of the Fire TM" outfit and
instantly make the "Out of the Fire TM" work successfully. It would take
an incredibly unimaginative potter to even want to do that, rather than
making their own work and establishing their own reputation. This is not
anything like buying and selling other mainstream businesses. An
established pottery studio is based on the singular vision of the potters
who built and nurtured it, and to sell that vision is to sell out. I
don't see how I could trust the work or the vision of an artist who did
such a thing. It makes no sense to me to even WANT to do such a thing.=20
Jim, if you are tired of doing that work and want to move on, then just
move on. The only reasonable way to capitalize on your previous work is
to KEEP MAKING IT. Otherwise, just let it go.
- Vince
--=20
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Lee Love on sat 28 jul 07
What is really nice about our craft, is that it can be done in many
different ways.
Seems ridiculous to tell Jim what he can and can't do. But
I suppose it should be expected.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Helen Bates on sat 28 jul 07
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:27:16 -0700, tony clennell wrote:
>You are your pottery and there is nothing to sell when
>you leave but physical assets- building, machinery
>etc. The goodwill and customer lists you have
>developed are not worth a plug nickel.
>Sheila and I sold our pottery Gleason Brook Pottery to
>a young upcoming potter. He bought the assets and was
>in business the day after he moved in. he paid zero,
>naddo, zilch for the reputation we had built up over
>20 years. If you think someone is going to pay you for
>goodwill as an asset you're outta your mind.
>Building up a pottery is about your own personal
>reputation and I am in serious doubt whether or not ya
>can sell it. I suspect not. Our customers want our
>work. they will drop by our location if we leave but
>if our work ain't there I'm doubtful of their
>patronage. Why would another potter pay me for my
>website, customer list and clay and glaze formulas????
>It's a mystery to me.
Tony,
I would guess that what Tim Smith bought was the physical assets of your
pottery, not the design aspects. I'm sure you are right that he would have
to build up his own customer base, and if he has done so, it is because he
has found customers who like what he is making now. Whether it is anything
like what you ever made, I don't have any idea, but your work and his are
very different now:
http://www.osartistsco-op.com/profiles/tsmith.html (Tim)
http://www.sourcherrypottery.com/NewWork/new_work.html (Tony.)
I think the only time selling "goodwill" in a pottery business is for the
type of business that is a "production" pottery that makes repeat pieces of
the exact same design in the hundreds or thousands. If it's well-marketed
to shops and arty garden stores, and the like, and the work is done in a
routine manner (some have no problem with this method of working, at least
for a time), then perhaps it can be passed on, with the recipes and client
list, to a potter who would like to be a "businessman."
In my more naive days, I have bought pottery like this, in the USA and
Canada... ;)
HElen
--
Helen Bates
Belleville, Ontario, Canada
Clayarters' URLs: http://amsterlaw.com/clayart/
Jim Willett on sat 28 jul 07
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 23:46:10 -0500, Anne Webb wrote:
>Now Jim, do you consider your business a factory or a studio pottery?
I tend to agree with Tony in that people are buying the potter as much as
the work. A studio pottery is a unique kind of business. Items are
handmade, not machined.
Hi Anne,
I was wondering if someone would pick up on that. David's comments about a
studio potter not being an established business in the real world
definition of same was actually fairly close to the mark. What we had
proven in the last year of pushing our wholesale business was that if you
push yourself to the limit ten to twelve hours a day, six or seven days a
week you can make a living at pottery, but it definitely had gone from
being a studio pottery to being a two person factory. That was what
prompted our meltdown and thoughts of selling the whole thing and getting
a job at Costco. Instead we went back to look for a way that Cindy could
find the fun in throwing again, we could sell our pots, and we could make
a living and continue to build a business. If you look at our business as
it stands right now it is obviously not just a studio pottery. We do have
the studio, we've got two kilns firing right now. It is 500 square feet
instead of 2300 and it took some getting used to but it works for making
our retail pots, still doing some wholesale orders, and firing for other
clay people who need the occasional load fired, and Cindy now has time to
enjoy potting again instead of being the machine that feeds the kilns. The
gallery part of our business, the 1000 square feet in the front, provides
a second source of income that allows that freedom . We are selling art
and craft in the same venue, and we are selling pottery by other potters.
Eventually, our pottery will be a very small part of the items
represented.As far as the comment that people are buying the potter as
much as the pottery, that doesn't really hold when we ship out a large
wholesale order to a retail store in Ontario or elsewhere. The pots must
stand, and sell, on their own merit. Joe Customer has no contact with the
potter other than through the work, so conceivably, if we had sold the
pottery business to someone else, another accomplished potter,while the
styles might have changed some, the glazes and claybody would provide a
continuity on the other end. And yes you are right about the wine bottle
candles being what Tony was looking at. Cindy made the original sculpture
and our friend Sari who makes the candles made a mould from that sculpture
which she uses to pour the 100% beeswax candles!
Thanks for your comments.
Jim Willett
http://www.outofthefirestudio.com
milliesea on sun 29 jul 07
My father was a graphic artist. he had one employee. He died in
'69. When my mother sold the business to the employee, the contract
listed the contents of his shop, machines, tools, paint. etc. then
there was a separate listing called "Good Will". this was his client
list, and the good reputation that he had built over the years.
These are really intangibles and can be worth quite a bit. If I were
buying any business that I intended to keep running the Good Will is
really important as you transition from their style to your own.
The other thing that I would bring up is something that I have
learned over the last few years with the real estate business that my
daughter and I have. If you get a good accountant who deals with
small businesses, they are a wealth of information of ways that you
can use depreciation schedules to offset your income, and something
that I would never thought of is having the business pay for things
like our cell phones, health insurance, one benefit that I am
getting is a personal trainer because I need supervision at the gym
and even though the trainer is a Physical therapist, the regular
health insurance doesn't cover it. ( if I am not supervised, I will
wind up wrecking another body part and be back with the orthopedist
and physical therapy again.) Our accountant has really helped us
so much.
Both my adult children and I have art degrees. the only thing that
we didn't learn in school was how to run a business. That lack
really hurt me at first. now through the Real Estate I have learned
a lot about marketing that will help us in the future as we ease back
into art production.
Millie in Md. waiting until next week when my son and his lady move
out. then their stuff will be out of the basement and I will have
access to my studio again. and be able to put my truck into the
garage again.
The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity.
Dorothy Parker
On Jul 27, 2007, at 11:14 AM, Chris Campbell wrote:
>Why would another potter pay
>me for my website, customer list
>and clay and glaze formulas???
Lee Love on sun 29 jul 07
On 7/28/07, milliesea wrote:
> My father was a graphic artist. he had one employee. He died in
> '69. When my mother sold the business to the employee, the contract
> listed the contents of his shop, machines, tools, paint. etc. then
> there was a separate listing called "Good Will".
THis seems like the viable why to hand a pottery business down.
Customers and patrons will have some sense, that an associate or
relative (son, daughter, spouse) will have some sensitivity to how
things have been done in the past.
My teacher adopted his grandson (his daughter's son of a
different last name) to assure continuity. He finished his 5 year
apprenticeship while I was there. He expected to do his own work, but
also carry on the name and reputation of the kiln.
I suppose is new and and the craft lacks continuity in our
society, so it is easy for folks to abstractly dismiss alternative
ways of doing things.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Vince Pitelka on wed 1 aug 07
Lee Love wrote:
> What is really nice about our craft, is that it can be done in many
> different ways.
> Seems ridiculous to tell Jim what he can and can't do. But
> I suppose it should be expected.
Goodness Lee, but this seems to be one of those periods when you tend to
post rather barbed, arrogant messages. No one told Jim what he can and
can't do. We just expressed our opinions about what he is trying to do.=20
Big difference, as you well know. Stop trying to stir up trouble.
- Vince
--=20
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Technological University
vpitelka@dtccom.net
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka/
Lee Love on wed 1 aug 07
On 8/1/07, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>
> No one told Jim what he can and can't do. We just expressed our opinions about
> what he is trying to do.
> Big difference, as you well know. Stop trying to stir up trouble.
It is your opinion that I should Stop expressing my opinion?
Interesting!
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Lee Love on wed 1 aug 07
On 7/28/07, Jim Willett wrote:
> enjoy potting again instead of being the machine that feeds the kilns. The
> gallery part of our business, the 1000 square feet in the front, provides
> a second source of income that allows that freedom . We are selling art
> and craft in the same venue, and we are selling pottery by other potters.
> Eventually, our pottery will be a very small part of the items
> represented.
Jim,
I think folks are reacting from their personal experience
"making" clay. Looking at your web site, it is obvious that you
aren't _only_ a potter. I believe we have other folks supplementing
their _making_ income by selling the work of other people. Maybe Tom
Wirt is too busy to chime in, but he was the first I thought of.
http://www.claycoyote.com/gallery_store/
Certainly, a gallery with an online presence can have a value
beyond its physical assets.
Most of the money in Mashiko is made by the merchants, rather
than the potters making the work for them. Pottery in Mashiko has
always been that way, ever since the local feudal lord decided a 150
years ago, that the farmers could bring cash into the economy by
making pottery during their slow farming season.
Potters in Mashiko don't typically make very much of their
income from selling from their studio. There are two tracts:
Shows/galleries and wholeselling to shops. Few folks make very much
money supplying the shops, unless they hire many folks and become very
similar to a factory situation.
The other thing missing in Japan is the workshop system.
There are not the same teaching opportunities for the studio potter as
there is here in the N. America.
What I am most impressed with since I arrived in Minneapolis
this summer, is all the alternative ways there are to find studio
space and to get your work fired. There are more co-ops here and
"kilns for hire" than when I left 8 years ago. The clay community is
vibrant.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Japan
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
Henry David Thoreau
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Tom at Hutchtel.net on wed 1 aug 07
Subject: Re: Fire Sale
> On 7/28/07, Jim Willett wrote:
>
>> enjoy potting again instead of being the machine that feeds the kilns.
>> The
>> gallery part of our business, the 1000 square feet in the front, provides
>> a second source of income that allows that freedom . We are selling art
>> and craft in the same venue, and we are selling pottery by other potters.
Snip: Lee Love:
>Maybe Tom Wirt is too busy to chime in, but he was the first I thought of.
> http://www.claycoyote.com/gallery_store/
>
> Certainly, a gallery with an online presence can have a value
> beyond its physical assets.
>
OK Lee, you sucked me in! Like several on this list, I didn't really get
into clay until after 50. And when I did, I had done 3 shows when I got
"downsized" from my corporate marketing job. But that marketing experience
was what helped us survive, along with the business knowledge we'd picked up
over the years. Betsy didn't actually have serious involvement until after
we'd made the commitment to do clay and moved to Minnesota.
Today I do the wet clay work, she does all the firing and glazing. We make
100% of our living from pots and they also partly support the gallery you
mentioned.
We started out doing just street fairs, 26 in 1994 to be exact. Knew that
wouldn't work so we set up strategies in our business plan to improve show
sales and decrease the number. We have also, since day 1 had a basic
strategy that we want to sell 100% of what we want to make at retail here on
premises. (remember this was 1994 before the internet really was working as
a marketing tool).
We went into wholesale since it's far more profitable than street fairs, but
still did a few. Then our banker and accountant, in the same year asked,
so, what happens if either of you gets sick or croaks? Reality.
We had pretty good sales from our showroom (a 13 x 13 well house) and we'd
met alot of people at fairs and the Philly market, so we decided to build a
gallery attached to the studio. Initially we had to man that in between
making pots. It's finally reached the point where it supports some
employees, but it isn't carrying it's full weight yet. So we make a lot of
pots.
This year, after adding on to the house, we've had to go back into doing
more street fairs after a 6 year hiatus.. RUDE AWAKENING. This industry
ahs changed dramatically in that 6 years. Getting shows to the $7500 to
$10,000 sales level is going to be rough. But we're seeing a lot of
problems with show management, and the trend is not good.
So we're scrambling to find other ways to reach the 'good' customers.
Changing our pots (new stuff is not online yet) in subtle ways so we can
increase prices, new glazes, new pots, bigger pots (Tony made me do it). \
So we'll spend 2-3 years reinventing ourselves to meet this new market.
Who knows, maybe a 'street fair' right here on the farm.
Oh yeah, this winter during what is our sort of down time, I'll get a hip
replacement. It's waited til I go on Medicare since we can't afford the 20%
co-pay our health insurance requires....so we'll start next year way behind
on inventory. But we will make it work. Just like Tony and Sheila and lots
of others.
Tom Wirt
Hutchinson, MN
twirt@hutchtel.net
www.claycoyote.com
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