BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics on wed 15 aug 07
Hello all,
I'm looking at building a hard brick soda kiln using 12"x24" nitride bonded
shelves. Probably a cross draft design similar to Doug Casebeer's at
Anderson Ranch, fired with propane.
I know someone looking to sell some 4"x9"x18" hard brick from the steel mill
that went out of business a few years ago in Utah (some of you may remember
the ads in Ceramics Monthly). Supposedly they are 60% alumina (PCE 35).
I have a couple questions relating to using this very strange size of kiln
brick.
Is it a bad idea to use them on their side 2 or 3 bricks thick, and have a
single brick hot face of 9"x18"?
The Olsen book says to have 4.5" of room on all sides which would make the
interior of the ware chamber minimum of 33". If I were to make it 32", I
could easily cut 3" off the large bricks and it would make a nice fire lock
pattern, but I'm worried it might choke the kiln down. Is 4.5" a hard and
fast rule?
I'm assuming everyone agrees 8" thick walls are not thick enough and I
should go to 12" thick, am I wrong to assume that? I would like to try to
limit the metal work involved, but would making the last 3 inches of brick
softbrick make a huge difference (ending up with 8 inches of hard and 3
inches of soft)? Would it be worth the extra sheet metal costs necessary to
contain the 2 different types of brick?
In the end, I'm not sure i can get these bricks at a price that would make
up for all the weird things I'd have to do to make them work, but I'd like
to hear everyone's opinion on if it's worth using the weird size.
Thanks,
--
BJ Clark
Stinking Desert Ceramics
bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
www.stinkingdesert.com
Michael Wendt on thu 16 aug 07
B J,
I would use them on their side like you plan
only one layer thick. Glaze the face you plan
to have on the inside first in another kiln.
A mat high fire glaze will seal and protect
the brick from penetration due to the salt.
Sealing the edges with the same glaze at
assembly might also help although it
means the liner will need to be sacrificed
if you want to replace it.
Back the liner with 9 " of 2000
degree IFBs in a loose stack.
The 4.5" rule is probably not that sensitive.
If you do the math you will find that the
tighter the side clearance, the faster the
flow rate for the gases, but in this instance,
there will not be much of a choking effect.
You should design the walls to be some
easy stacking multiple of the outer layer
of soft brick.
One final note:
I am suggesting to anyone who will listen
that they make the outer jacket of sheet
metal held together with screws and made
as air tight as possible. If need be, place a
layer of Kaowool flat against the skin.
Seal it and plumb in a few air lines connected
to aquarium air pumps to create a slight
overpressure under the skin.If that is not
enough air, a small continuous run air
compressor might do the trick.
My idea is to stop the salt corrosion
from reaching the soft brick or the outer
skin this way. Also, if the liner is thin, when
it starts to fail, it will cost less to repair.
Let us know if this idea works.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Ted Neal on thu 16 aug 07
BJ
I am very familiar with the bricks you are speaking about. I was Tech at Utah State
and was the one who started the ball rolling on the refractories coming out of
the Geneva Steel Mill. I have a semi-load of brick outside here at Ball State from there as well.
When we first started taking out bricks in 2001-2...(I believe we were getting them
for $75 for a full pallet of new straights.There were bricks as far as you could see....it was
unbelievable) Once Geneva was handed over to a reclaim
company out of California things got a little more expensive.
Some friends at the Simple Earth Foundation (check them out online) started working
as the liason for the reclaim co. Anyway...sorry I am rambling. The big brick are really great
for spanning certain areas, like the flue or spy holes. Whe I went to the site last I made sure I
had a couple of pallets of those to bring to Indiana along with what amounted to just about the
last of the standard sized straights and arches.
As far as building the whole kiln out of them, I think it would be OK. (Think how fast it wold be)
If you get 3" series Insulating brick for the exterior of the kiln then they would line up and you
could still accomplish some sort of locking row now and then. I still think you would want some
smaller brick for the detail areas, flues and other openings.
Also the brick are 4.5 inches thick not 4" so that, with an IFB on its flat face would be a 9" thick
wall. Standard thickness for all the kilns I have built. I would not go to a 12 " thickness (It would
actually be 13.5" anyway) I'm not sure about the 4.5" clearance concept. I have always left more
than that on the sides(firebox area) and somewhat less in the back. There is more than one right
way.
In the end, with these bricks, as with anything heavy, how much it would cost to get them to you
would be the deciding factor. I was close at the time so it was really cheap.
Best
Ted Neal
Ball State University
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:10:25 -0600, BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics
wrote:
>Hello all,
>I'm looking at building a hard brick soda kiln using 12"x24" nitride bonded
>shelves. Probably a cross draft design similar to Doug Casebeer's at
>Anderson Ranch, fired with propane.
>
>I know someone looking to sell some 4"x9"x18" hard brick from the steel mill
>that went out of business a few years ago in Utah (some of you may remember
>the ads in Ceramics Monthly). Supposedly they are 60% alumina (PCE 35).
>
>I have a couple questions relating to using this very strange size of kiln
>brick.
>Is it a bad idea to use them on their side 2 or 3 bricks thick, and have a
>single brick hot face of 9"x18"?
>The Olsen book says to have 4.5" of room on all sides which would make the
>interior of the ware chamber minimum of 33". If I were to make it 32", I
>could easily cut 3" off the large bricks and it would make a nice fire lock
>pattern, but I'm worried it might choke the kiln down. Is 4.5" a hard and
>fast rule?
>I'm assuming everyone agrees 8" thick walls are not thick enough and I
>should go to 12" thick, am I wrong to assume that? I would like to try to
>limit the metal work involved, but would making the last 3 inches of brick
>softbrick make a huge difference (ending up with 8 inches of hard and 3
>inches of soft)? Would it be worth the extra sheet metal costs necessary to
>contain the 2 different types of brick?
>
>In the end, I'm not sure i can get these bricks at a price that would make
>up for all the weird things I'd have to do to make them work, but I'd like
>to hear everyone's opinion on if it's worth using the weird size.
>Thanks,
>--
>BJ Clark
>Stinking Desert Ceramics
>bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
>www.stinkingdesert.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
Ted Neal on thu 16 aug 07
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:32:56 -0700, Michael Wendt wrote:
Hi Michael. BJ
>I would use them on their side like you plan
>only one layer thick. Glaze the face you plan
>to have on the inside first in another kiln.
I have never heard of glazing the hotface before, interesting concept.
Wouldn't that happen on the first firing anyway?
>Back the liner with 9 " of 2000
>degree IFBs in a loose stack.
Also, I believe the interface temperature between 4.5 inches of hardbrick and 4.5 inches
of Insulating brick, at cone 10, is over 2100 degrees. I don't believe that 2000 IFB would do a
proper job for you. (and if you did a 9" IFB exterior, the heat gradient would move outward even
more, but probably not that much.)
Anyway, I always call my refactory guy in Salt Lake City, John Mattison. He has a program that can
tell you exactly where the heat will be, at a specific temperature and construction, even what
difference a windy day will make.....He can also tell you all about those big bricks as he sold most
of them to Geneva in the first place. Give him a call and tell him Ted says hi.
John Mattison
Harbison Walker Refractories
1.801.886.0545
Michael
>Seal it and plumb in a few air lines connected
>to aquarium air pumps to create a slight
>overpressure under the skin.If that is not
>enough air, a small continuous run air
>compressor might do the trick.
Do you have this kind of a vacuum set up on your kiln? I should think it would
be very difficult to stop the penetration of sodium vapor into the nooks and crannys.
And how would the positive pressure effect your ability to keep an even reduction
while firing...interesting.
Best
Ted
>B J,
>The 4.5" rule is probably not that sensitive.
>If you do the math you will find that the
>tighter the side clearance, the faster the
>flow rate for the gases, but in this instance,
>there will not be much of a choking effect.
>You should design the walls to be some
>easy stacking multiple of the outer layer
>of soft brick.
>One final note:
>I am suggesting to anyone who will listen
>that they make the outer jacket of sheet
>metal held together with screws and made
>as air tight as possible. If need be, place a
>layer of Kaowool flat against the skin.
>My idea is to stop the salt corrosion
>from reaching the soft brick or the outer
>skin this way. Also, if the liner is thin, when
>it starts to fail, it will cost less to repair.
>Let us know if this idea works.
>Regards,
>Michael Wendt
>Wendt Pottery
>2729 Clearwater Ave.
>Lewiston, Id 83501
>U.S.A.
>208-746-3724
>wendtpot@lewiston.com
>http://www.wendtpottery.com
>http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
>settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots@pclink.com.
BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics on thu 16 aug 07
Michael,
That is an interesting idea on the air flow.
I, however, don't think I have the budget to make it air tight like you
suggest. Metal prices are soooo crazy, and I intend on only keeping this
kiln in this form for 3-4 years, with limited firings (one a month MAX),
before I move from where I live to a place that I can build a wood kiln.
As far as stacking the big boys on their side, how often would you tie them
into the rest of the wall? 2 layers tall is my gut (every 18"). I can buy
Clipper DP's retail, which are supposed to be pretty good in a soda
environment, so I figured I'd tie in to the soft brick with that.
Thanks for the info so far!
BJ Clark
On 8/16/07, Michael Wendt wrote:
>
> B J,
> I would use them on their side like you plan
> only one layer thick. Glaze the face you plan
> to have on the inside first in another kiln.
> A mat high fire glaze will seal and protect
> the brick from penetration due to the salt.
> Sealing the edges with the same glaze at
> assembly might also help although it
> means the liner will need to be sacrificed
> if you want to replace it.
> Back the liner with 9 " of 2000
> degree IFBs in a loose stack.
> The 4.5" rule is probably not that sensitive.
> If you do the math you will find that the
> tighter the side clearance, the faster the
> flow rate for the gases, but in this instance,
> there will not be much of a choking effect.
> You should design the walls to be some
> easy stacking multiple of the outer layer
> of soft brick.
> One final note:
> I am suggesting to anyone who will listen
> that they make the outer jacket of sheet
> metal held together with screws and made
> as air tight as possible. If need be, place a
> layer of Kaowool flat against the skin.
> Seal it and plumb in a few air lines connected
> to aquarium air pumps to create a slight
> overpressure under the skin.If that is not
> enough air, a small continuous run air
> compressor might do the trick.
> My idea is to stop the salt corrosion
> from reaching the soft brick or the outer
> skin this way. Also, if the liner is thin, when
> it starts to fail, it will cost less to repair.
> Let us know if this idea works.
> Regards,
> Michael Wendt
> Wendt Pottery
> 2729 Clearwater Ave.
> Lewiston, Id 83501
> U.S.A.
> 208-746-3724
> wendtpot@lewiston.com
> http://www.wendtpottery.com
> http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
--
BJ Clark
Stinking Desert Ceramics
bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
www.stinkingdesert.com
Michael Wendt on thu 16 aug 07
Ted,
I am building a thinwall kiln out of IFB straights
cut in half long wise to 1.25 x 4.5 x 9.
I mitered the ends to 15 degrees and this makes the
standard 12 sided barrel shape envelope.
This time I plan to seal the entire outer skin air
tight with a stainless steel shell.
The main cause of skin failure in kilns is corrosion
due to the dew point issue. Aquarium pumps
produce less than a cubic foot per minute so they
would be ideal candidates for the overpressure
idea.
As to glazing the kiln, I got the idea from others
here on clayart who reported that the glaze sealed
the face of the brick and prevented spalling due
to infiltration.
My idea with the overpressure skin was to maintain
a slight, but constant air flow through the wall into
the
ware chamber, preventing sodium from migrating into
the wall structure, so that better insulation could be
used.
As to the thermal gradient:
My understanding is that denser bricks
transmit heat faster so that the insulation face with
the IFB
would be very hot too, thus reducing the thermal
differential between the hot and cold faces of the
large
panels and in this way preventing cracking problems.
I recommended 2000 degree brick because they are
much less dense and so better insulators plus they are
rated for industrial use and in this periodic kiln,
they
would be very much up to the task of handling a hot
face load of 2100 degrees or better. The main bearing
load from the lid would rest on the hard brick walls so
the soft bricks would be primarily insulation, not
structure.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 17 aug 07
Dear Michael Wendt,=20
I can see the point of your innovative kiln design but I question you =
advice to pre glaze the bricks on their inner face before they are put =
into service. Would you please describe or explain the chemistry that is =
inferred by this process, given that the bricks are graded as 60% =
Alumina and there should be no free silica present in their composition =
to react with the Sodium Carbonate.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Michael Wendt on fri 17 aug 07
Ivor,
Porosity permits penetration of sodium
vapors. High Alumina bricks still contain
silica because clay is the binder.
I just remember that someone on clayart
wrote that they had done some work in
this area and found that it worked and
it made some sense. I have not actually
done the glaze trick. If the person who
did this will chime in?
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Ted Neal on fri 17 aug 07
Michael
What is your plan on securing the thinwall hot face to make them stable?
Just curious. (Or are the angle cuts part of the plan to lock them together semi-independantly
from the exterior brick) Is this a fairly small kiln? Sorry about all the questions...
I understand what you mean about the 2000 IFB. Indeed they are less dense. aka more air
or more insulating power. I guess I was just thinking of the great variety of quality in
many IFB's. I have seen some that want to crumble when you just look at them, where others are
much better structurally. I guess for someone with little experience I would suggest keeping
an eye on the temperature ratings, or at least know the quaility of the brick before having them
delivered.
I would be interested to know how this kiln works out for you. If you take any
photos during construction I would love to share them with my kilnbuilding students.
Let me know how the project moves forward..
Best
Ted
Ted Neal
Ball State University
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:17:58 -0700, Michael Wendt wrote:
Ivor and Olive Lewis on sat 18 aug 07
Dear Michael Wendt,=20
Fair comment !
I built a Salt Glaze Kiln (NaCl) in 1983 and fired it for eight years =
without any deterioration of the interior walls. My bricks had a PCE of =
38, suggesting that they were a pure Alumino- Silicate such as =
Sillimanite. As such I would doubt that there was any free silica =
present in them.
One thing I did when researching the Salt Glaze Process was to expose =
all of the regular glaze ingredients separately to Salt at Cone 8 plus. =
Contrary to popular opinion I could never get ground quartz to form a =
glaze with Sodium Chloride. Though silica would sinter there was never =
any fusion, nor did the vapour penetrate and cause the clay to fuse.
I wonder if the Soda glaze people have ever checked out individual =
ingredients in this way. I presented this information, with examples, to =
the audience of the Salt Glaze Seminar at the 1988 International Clay =
Conference at Sydney.
Good to have an exchange of ideas.
Best regards,
Ivor
BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics on sun 19 aug 07
Ted,
I've heard a lot about you and your kiln building from Jason, I just took a
workshop at Anderson Ranch with him.
Thanks for the info on the bricks, I knew someone on here would know about
them specifically.
It's funny that you say they are more like 4.5" in, no 4", I made the same
comment to my wife "I'm willing to bet they are 4.5"", because the math
works out alot better.
I do plan on buying a pallet of Clipper DP standard straights and an
assortment of arches for the top. So I like your idea of using the big boys
as liners and spanners and having the outer layer be soft brick. I'll
probably go this route. I don't plan on "Matt Long"ing the amounts of soda,
in fact, I plan on using the minimum possible because my wife is not as keen
on the soda look as I am. Much like Tony Clennell does in his wood kiln,
I'll be hiding her work from the vapors as best as possible.
As for transport, they are about 10 minutes away by car, so that's not an
issue at all. It's the straights and softbrick that I have to get commercial
transport for.
Michael: I've also read people suggesting the glazing of bricks on the list.
I might give them a light spray of a shino that I know is unreactive to
soda, just for "insurance purposes", but since I plan on taking this kiln
apart and moving it, and rebuilding it into a train, I don't want to get too
crazy with the glaze.
Ivor: Thanks for the info!
Bill Merrill (who emailed me pics off list): Thanks a bunch for all your
info. I'm still reviewing it. It's interesting you've used MFT for soda
kilns. I've always thought the arch played an integral part of an
atmospheric kiln. Do you get more soda accumulation at the top corners?
Anyway, thanks all for your information. I'm still working on some plans and
final brick numbers.
Regards,
--
BJ Clark
Stinking Desert Ceramics
bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
www.stinkingdesert.com
On 8/16/07, Ted Neal wrote:
>
> BJ
>
> I am very familiar with the bricks you are speaking about. I was Tech at
> Utah State
> and was the one who started the ball rolling on the refractories coming
> out of
> the Geneva Steel Mill. I have a semi-load of brick outside here at Ball
> State from there as well.
> When we first started taking out bricks in 2001-2...(I believe we were
> getting them
> for $75 for a full pallet of new straights.There were bricks as far as you
> could see....it was
> unbelievable) Once Geneva was handed over to a reclaim
> company out of California things got a little more expensive.
>
> Some friends at the Simple Earth Foundation (check them out online)
> started working
> as the liason for the reclaim co. Anyway...sorry I am rambling. The big
> brick are really great
> for spanning certain areas, like the flue or spy holes. Whe I went to the
> site last I made sure I
> had a couple of pallets of those to bring to Indiana along with what
> amounted to just about the
> last of the standard sized straights and arches.
>
> As far as building the whole kiln out of them, I think it would be OK.
> (Think how fast it wold be)
> If you get 3" series Insulating brick for the exterior of the kiln then
> they would line up and you
> could still accomplish some sort of locking row now and then. I still
> think you would want some
> smaller brick for the detail areas, flues and other openings.
>
> Also the brick are 4.5 inches thick not 4" so that, with an IFB on its
> flat face would be a 9" thick
> wall. Standard thickness for all the kilns I have built. I would not go
> to a 12 " thickness (It would
> actually be 13.5" anyway) I'm not sure about the 4.5" clearance
> concept. I have always left more
> than that on the sides(firebox area) and somewhat less in the back. There
> is more than one right
> way.
>
> In the end, with these bricks, as with anything heavy, how much it would
> cost to get them to you
> would be the deciding factor. I was close at the time so it was really
> cheap.
>
> Best
>
> Ted Neal
> Ball State University
>
>
>
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 22:10:25 -0600, BJ Clark | Stinking Desert Ceramics
> wrote:
>
> >Hello all,
> >I'm looking at building a hard brick soda kiln using 12"x24" nitride
> bonded
> >shelves. Probably a cross draft design similar to Doug Casebeer's at
> >Anderson Ranch, fired with propane.
> >
> >I know someone looking to sell some 4"x9"x18" hard brick from the steel
> mill
> >that went out of business a few years ago in Utah (some of you may
> remember
> >the ads in Ceramics Monthly). Supposedly they are 60% alumina (PCE 35).
> >
> >I have a couple questions relating to using this very strange size of
> kiln
> >brick.
> >Is it a bad idea to use them on their side 2 or 3 bricks thick, and have
> a
> >single brick hot face of 9"x18"?
> >The Olsen book says to have 4.5" of room on all sides which would make
> the
> >interior of the ware chamber minimum of 33". If I were to make it 32", I
> >could easily cut 3" off the large bricks and it would make a nice fire
> lock
> >pattern, but I'm worried it might choke the kiln down. Is 4.5" a hard and
> >fast rule?
> >I'm assuming everyone agrees 8" thick walls are not thick enough and I
> >should go to 12" thick, am I wrong to assume that? I would like to try to
> >limit the metal work involved, but would making the last 3 inches of
> brick
> >softbrick make a huge difference (ending up with 8 inches of hard and 3
> >inches of soft)? Would it be worth the extra sheet metal costs necessary
> to
> >contain the 2 different types of brick?
> >
> >In the end, I'm not sure i can get these bricks at a price that would
> make
> >up for all the weird things I'd have to do to make them work, but I'd
> like
> >to hear everyone's opinion on if it's worth using the weird size.
> >Thanks,
> >--
> >BJ Clark
> >Stinking Desert Ceramics
> >bjclark@stinkingdesert.com
> >www.stinkingdesert.com
> >
>
> >______________________________________________________________________________
> >Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
> >
> >You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> >settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
> >
> >Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
| |
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