John Connolly on thu 30 aug 07
Be health-careful what you wish for.... Posted by: "Lili Krakowski" mlkrakowski@CITLINK.NET Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:41 am (PST) Never mind my opinions. But do listen to the facts. The countries that
have universal or national health care all have a rationing or triage
system. I checked this out some years ago...and also know it from
experience.
Some countries ration access to specialists. (Remember it took our own Janet
Kaiser over a year to get to a rheumatologist. ) Others deny you access to
advanced treatments or specialists if you are over a certain age....like
60.... Still others will not give you access unless your GP thinks you a
good candidate either for the "procedure" or for doing what you are
told--i.e. following through on doctor's orders. Others still severely
limit their ORs, their MRI and CATscan machines.... A psychiatrist friend in
one of these countries had a patient in the hospital. She needed him to
have a scan--do not recall the type--to determine whether he was insane or
whether he had a tumor---it took nearly a year for him to get one....
------------------------------------------------------------
Lili, I'm waiting for you to tell me how this differs from our current system. It sounds awfully similar to the HMO system we all know and love.
John Connolly in Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico
---------------------------------
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.
Lili Krakowski on thu 30 aug 07
Never mind my opinions. But do listen to the facts. The countries that
have universal or national health care all have a rationing or triage
system. I checked this out some years ago...and also know it from
experience.
Some countries ration access to specialists. (Remember it took our own Janet
Kaiser over a year to get to a rheumatologist.) Others deny you access to
advanced treatments or specialists if you are over a certain age....like
60.... Still others will not give you access unless your GP thinks you a
good candidate either for the "procedure" or for doing what you are
told--i.e. following through on doctor's orders. Others still severely
limit their ORs, their MRI and CATscan machines....A psychiatrist friend in
one of these countries had a patient in the hospital. She needed him to
have a scan--do not recall the type--to determine whether he was insane or
whether he had a tumor---it took nearly a year for him to get one....
Let me further point out that there was a little poster in my then
orthopedist' s office that said 40% of the fee was for liability insurance.
The RNs and MDs on the list can tell you how much they pay for their
liability insurance.
And older ClayArters will recall that every MD used to have patients he saw
for free, and doctors and dentists ran clinics for those who could not
afford to pay. The only complaint I ever heard about that system was from
the daughter of a Pennsylvania MD whose patients often paid in chickens or
in eggs....As an adult she could face neither....
(As a last note...a dentist in NYC who also was a prof. of dentistry,
accepted art work as payment in the 1940s. And that meant from the Abstract
Impressionists whose work now brings millions....Yes, I was a patient in the
50s, paid in cash , saw the work on her office walls.....)
Keep well!
Lili Krakowski
Be of good courage
Sylvia Holmes on thu 30 aug 07
Lili
Unfortunately, the demand for healthcare (free here in the uk) is infinite,
and resources are not. People want to live for ever, and sadly, this is just
not possible. These are the facts.
Sylvia
On 8/30/07, Lili Krakowski wrote:
>
> Never mind my opinions. But do listen to the facts. The countries that
> have universal or national health care all have a rationing or triage
> system. I checked this out some years ago...and also know it from
> experience.
>
> Some countries ration access to specialists. (Remember it took our own
> Janet
> Kaiser over a year to get to a rheumatologist.) Others deny you access
> to
> advanced treatments or specialists if you are over a certain age....like
> 60.... Still others will not give you access unless your GP thinks you a
> good candidate either for the "procedure" or for doing what you are
> told--i.e. following through on doctor's orders. Others still severely
> limit their ORs, their MRI and CATscan machines....A psychiatrist friend
> in
> one of these countries had a patient in the hospital. She needed him to
> have a scan--do not recall the type--to determine whether he was insane or
> whether he had a tumor---it took nearly a year for him to get one....
>
> Let me further point out that there was a little poster in my then
> orthopedist' s office that said 40% of the fee was for liability
> insurance.
> The RNs and MDs on the list can tell you how much they pay for their
> liability insurance.
>
> And older ClayArters will recall that every MD used to have patients he
> saw
> for free, and doctors and dentists ran clinics for those who could not
> afford to pay. The only complaint I ever heard about that system was from
> the daughter of a Pennsylvania MD whose patients often paid in chickens or
> in eggs....As an adult she could face neither....
>
>
> (As a last note...a dentist in NYC who also was a prof. of dentistry,
> accepted art work as payment in the 1940s. And that meant from the
> Abstract
> Impressionists whose work now brings millions....Yes, I was a patient in
> the
> 50s, paid in cash , saw the work on her office walls.....)
>
> Keep well!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lili Krakowski
> Be of good courage
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots@pclink.com.
>
James and Sherron Bowen on fri 31 aug 07
This is how I see it. If the systems in those countries are too slow to
provide excellent care in a timely fashion then those systems need improved,
not scrapped. It is very possible here to get prompt treatment here but here
that is based on your ability to pay. Again, I will say that in the home of
the brave and the land of the free, the richest most powerful nation on
earth, we can do better and I do not believe calling for an excellent public
healthcare system or a better public school system is advocating for
socialism.
I also believe that those of us who campaign for public office in order to
provide the people a more democratic society ,one that honors and defends
the constitution, are not "blood-sucking vermin" as my good friend Paul
Lewing seems to believe. If some folks want to stay away from political
action that is their right, but making stupid attacks on those of us who
are out there working hard and risking our health defending the principles
and laws that provide for their opportunity to stay at home and bitch says
more about them than it does about those of us being attacked.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Connolly"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: Be health-careful what you wish for....
> Be health-careful what you wish for.... Posted by: "Lili Krakowski"
> mlkrakowski@CITLINK.NET Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:41 am (PST) Never mind my
> opinions. But do listen to the facts. The countries that
> have universal or national health care all have a rationing or triage
> system. I checked this out some years ago...and also know it from
> experience.
>
> Some countries ration access to specialists. (Remember it took our own
> Janet
> Kaiser over a year to get to a rheumatologist. ) Others deny you access to
> advanced treatments or specialists if you are over a certain age....like
> 60.... Still others will not give you access unless your GP thinks you a
> good candidate either for the "procedure" or for doing what you are
> told--i.e. following through on doctor's orders. Others still severely
> limit their ORs, their MRI and CATscan machines.... A psychiatrist friend
> in
> one of these countries had a patient in the hospital. She needed him to
> have a scan--do not recall the type--to determine whether he was insane or
> whether he had a tumor---it took nearly a year for him to get one....
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lili, I'm waiting for you to tell me how this differs from our current
> system. It sounds awfully similar to the HMO system we all know and love.
>
>
>
>
> John Connolly in Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
> Finder tool.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
Forrest on fri 31 aug 07
For 35 years I was an employed person with health insurance. Then my job
ended in my mid-50's. Jobs were scarce. Jobs with insurance were
nonexistent. Then my elderly mother moved in with me. Jobs because
impossible. I now do pottery fulltime but the start-up is slow.
I broke my foot in January and saw my family practice doc who has been
treating me for 15 years. He looked at the x-ray and referred me to an
orthopedist in the same hospital. The hospital flatly refused to schedule
a visit for me because I am uninsured. This was clearly stated, not inferred
by me. This in spite of my waving a credit card without a spending limit in
front of them. I was outraged. My doctor was outraged. I wasn't asking for
free care. But as it was not emergency care the hospital could legally
refused to treat me.
I don't know the answer to our healthcare crisis but I do know we have one.
Personally, I'd like to see professional organizations, even loose ones like
our guilds, able to offer group insurance to members. Individual insurance
is more expensive, covers less, and has deductibles in the tens of thousands
of dollars. Spreading out the risk is what lowers the cost.
I don't see this as a political issue. I see it as a human issue.
Rosemary
On 8/30/07 11:10 PM, "John Connolly" wrote:
> Be health-careful what you wish for.... Posted by: "Lili Krakowski"
> mlkrakowski@CITLINK.NET Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:41 am (PST) Never mind my
> opinions. But do listen to the facts. The countries that
> have universal or national health care all have a rationing or triage
> system. I checked this out some years ago...and also know it from
> experience.
>
> Some countries ration access to specialists. (Remember it took our own Janet
> Kaiser over a year to get to a rheumatologist. ) Others deny you access to
> advanced treatments or specialists if you are over a certain age....like
> 60.... Still others will not give you access unless your GP thinks you a
> good candidate either for the "procedure" or for doing what you are
> told--i.e. following through on doctor's orders. Others still severely
> limit their ORs, their MRI and CATscan machines.... A psychiatrist friend in
> one of these countries had a patient in the hospital. She needed him to
> have a scan--do not recall the type--to determine whether he was insane or
> whether he had a tumor---it took nearly a year for him to get one....
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lili, I'm waiting for you to tell me how this differs from our current
> system. It sounds awfully similar to the HMO system we all know and love.
>
>
>
>
> John Connolly in Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
> Finder tool.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
Lee Love on fri 31 aug 07
On 8/31/07, Forrest wrote:
>
> I don't see this as a political issue. I see it as a human issue.
>
Rosemary,
A big advantage in Mashiko, where a lot of people come to be a
potter not for the money, but to leave the rat race of being a "salary
man", every poor potter has insurance.
My doctor in Mashiko did 3 years of post degree work at
Cornell University. He was the head of the large hospital in Mooka,
the nearest city to Mashiko town. He took over his father's family
practice clinic when his father retired. He worked untill his middle
80s. Dr. Suzuki is very good.
You can't believe the preventive care they do. It is one
of the reasons the Japanese are the longest lived people on the
planet. You can go to any doctor. Travel anywhere in Japan to be
treated by the best specialists. At Dr. Suzuki's clinic, they don't
take appointments. You just go and sit down for 10 to 20 minutes.
When I go for my medication every 6 weeks, I am usually surrounded by
70 to 90 year old farmers. Picking up their meds is a chance for them
to get out of the house and see old friends.
When you don't have to worry about health insurance, it is
easier to take a stab at being a full time potter. It is a big plus
for self employment. We are getting it, State by State. It is
only a matter of time.
--
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
"Making pots should not be a struggle.
It should be like walking down a hill
in a gentle breeze." --Shoji Hamada
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
Forrest on sat 1 sep 07
It is true that the need for insurance here keeps many a worker in a less
than desirable position. Though I am happy to be a potter, I am still a
little too young to collect Social Security and Medicare, a little too rich
to qualify for any public assistance, and a little too poor to buy private
insurance. So I step more carefully now and make sure I make good pots!
Thanks!
Rosemary
On 8/31/07 10:49 PM, "Lee Love" wrote:
> On 8/31/07, Forrest wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't see this as a political issue. I see it as a human issue.
>>
> Rosemary,
>
> A big advantage in Mashiko, where a lot of people come to be a
> potter not for the money, but to leave the rat race of being a "salary
> man", every poor potter has insurance.
>
> My doctor in Mashiko did 3 years of post degree work at
> Cornell University. He was the head of the large hospital in Mooka,
> the nearest city to Mashiko town. He took over his father's family
> practice clinic when his father retired. He worked untill his middle
> 80s. Dr. Suzuki is very good.
>
> You can't believe the preventive care they do. It is one
> of the reasons the Japanese are the longest lived people on the
> planet. You can go to any doctor. Travel anywhere in Japan to be
> treated by the best specialists. At Dr. Suzuki's clinic, they don't
> take appointments. You just go and sit down for 10 to 20 minutes.
> When I go for my medication every 6 weeks, I am usually surrounded by
> 70 to 90 year old farmers. Picking up their meds is a chance for them
> to get out of the house and see old friends.
>
> When you don't have to worry about health insurance, it is
> easier to take a stab at being a full time potter. It is a big plus
> for self employment. We are getting it, State by State. It is
> only a matter of time.
>
> --
> Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
>
> "Making pots should not be a struggle.
> It should be like walking down a hill
> in a gentle breeze." --Shoji Hamada
>
>
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
KATHI LESUEUR on sat 1 sep 07
On Aug 31, 2007, at 7:39 PM, Forrest wrote:
> For 35 years I was an employed person with health insurance. Then
> my job
> ended in my mid-50's. Jobs were scarce. Jobs with insurance were
> nonexistent. Then my elderly mother moved in with me. Jobs because
> impossible. I now do pottery fulltime but the start-up is slow.....
>
> I don't know the answer to our healthcare crisis but I do know we
> have one.
> Personally, I'd like to see professional organizations, even loose
> ones like
> our guilds, able to offer group insurance to members. Individual
> insurance
> is more expensive, covers less, and has deductibles in the tens of
> thousands
> of dollars. Spreading out the risk is what lowers the cost.>>>
>
For years the Michigan Guild of Artists and Artisans offered health
insurance to it's members. At the peak, two thousand people had
joined the Guild and gotten insurance through it. Then one day Blue
Cross decided to not insure us. I was chairman of the Board when we
lost Blue Cross. I spent weeks on the phone talking to major
carriers. They had no interest in insuring a group of artists. One
of our staff finally found a company called Consumers United
Insurance. They looked good. Their CEO had been on the Clinton task
force. They insured co-op organizations all over the country. We
signed on. A year later they closed down. Their socially responsible
investments into D.C. housing, among other things, caused then to go
under. That was the end of Guild insurance. It was impossible to
find another reputable carrier and the liability factor for the Board
scared the hell out of us.
Insurance offered by groups like the Guild have one main problem.
People who buy the insurance tend to need the insurance. They have,
or expect to have, health issues. So, the number of people paying for
insurance but not using it is small. Young people don't buy
insurance because they think they are invincible. But, with a company
policy, everyone is insured, young and not so young alike. So, the
risk is more balanced. But, as a company's work force ages, the
insurance gets more expensive and the employees are required to bear
more of the cost.
One of the problems with our healthcare method is that people forget
they are buying health INSURANCE not HEALTH CARE. They want to spend
several thousands of dollars and receive many more thousands in
benefits. But, insurance doesn't work that way. If you buy car
insurance the company is betting you won't need to use it. And most
people don't. But, have a few accidents, even if they are not your
fault, and your rates will climb significantly. You may get
cancelled. With health insurance everyone expects to use it, even if
only for preventative care.
This is why so many people are calling for single payer universal
coverage. You may not like what other industrialize countries have,
because they make hard choices in delivery of service. But, Forrest's
story is not unusual. We, also, ration health care. We just do it in
a different way. Ability to pay. And, that waiting time people talk
about. I live in Ann Arbor, MI. The University of Michigan competes
with St. Joseph Mercy Hospital for patients. But, when I injured my
shoulder I waited weeks to get an MRI and then two months to see the
orthopedist my primary doctor recommended. It was worth the wait
because he was the best and saved my career.
I now find myself in Forrest's position. Health insurance is just too
expensive. My partner was lucky. She got the right kind of cancer.
Breast. There's a government program called Title XV for that. Had
she had lymphoma we would have been selling the house just to get a
hospital to treat her.
With what this country spends for healthcare now, we could take care
of every citizen at the same level France takes care of their
citizens without spending any more money than we do. I don't expect
it to happen in my life time. But, it will happen. There is no other
logical solution.
Kathi
Lee Love on sat 1 sep 07
On 9/1/07, Forrest wrote:
> I step more carefully now and make sure I make good pots!
Jean was having problems with her meniere's so went back to our
accupunturist today. He works on you up to 4 or 5 hours and it is
covered by national insurance. Many potters come to him to put their
backs and joints back in shape. I recommend accupuncture for these
potter's problems.
I went to Chi Kung class for the first time in 8 years.
Sifu Mark will be 80 on September 16th. He hasn't changed in 8
years. He is very jolly and affectionate. A real contrast to most
Japanese teachers and more fitting to may nature.
The Chi Kung keeps him youthful and healthy. He also teaches
acupuncture and Chinese medicine, along with Kung Fu and Chinese
painting (Jean studied Chinese brushwork with him.)
Chi Kung breathing is really great for working at the
wheel. During my apprenticeship, which was very difficult, I
started the practice of doing 3 Chi Kung breaths before I started at
the wheel there. Sifu Mark says you can do this any time during the
day: waiting for the bus, driving in the car, coffee break, etc. It
helps you stop that tape of thought that is always running in our
brain. Want to incorporate it in future workshops.
--
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"For a democracy of excellence, the goal is not to reduce things to a
common denominator but to raise things to a shared worth."
--Paolo Soleri
James and Sherron Bowen on sat 1 sep 07
Kathy said "...it will happen. There is no other
logical solution."
You're right Kathy . It WILL happen. Hopefully in our lifetimes. The nay
sayers can call it what they will. This dog hunts.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "KATHI LESUEUR"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Be health-careful what you wish for....
> On Aug 31, 2007, at 7:39 PM, Forrest wrote:
>
>> For 35 years I was an employed person with health insurance. Then
>> my job
>> ended in my mid-50's. Jobs were scarce. Jobs with insurance were
>> nonexistent. Then my elderly mother moved in with me. Jobs because
>> impossible. I now do pottery fulltime but the start-up is slow.....
>>
>> I don't know the answer to our healthcare crisis but I do know we
>> have one.
>> Personally, I'd like to see professional organizations, even loose
>> ones like
>> our guilds, able to offer group insurance to members. Individual
>> insurance
>> is more expensive, covers less, and has deductibles in the tens of
>> thousands
>> of dollars. Spreading out the risk is what lowers the cost.>>>
>>
>
>
> For years the Michigan Guild of Artists and Artisans offered health
> insurance to it's members. At the peak, two thousand people had
> joined the Guild and gotten insurance through it. Then one day Blue
> Cross decided to not insure us. I was chairman of the Board when we
> lost Blue Cross. I spent weeks on the phone talking to major
> carriers. They had no interest in insuring a group of artists. One
> of our staff finally found a company called Consumers United
> Insurance. They looked good. Their CEO had been on the Clinton task
> force. They insured co-op organizations all over the country. We
> signed on. A year later they closed down. Their socially responsible
> investments into D.C. housing, among other things, caused then to go
> under. That was the end of Guild insurance. It was impossible to
> find another reputable carrier and the liability factor for the Board
> scared the hell out of us.
>
> Insurance offered by groups like the Guild have one main problem.
> People who buy the insurance tend to need the insurance. They have,
> or expect to have, health issues. So, the number of people paying for
> insurance but not using it is small. Young people don't buy
> insurance because they think they are invincible. But, with a company
> policy, everyone is insured, young and not so young alike. So, the
> risk is more balanced. But, as a company's work force ages, the
> insurance gets more expensive and the employees are required to bear
> more of the cost.
>
> One of the problems with our healthcare method is that people forget
> they are buying health INSURANCE not HEALTH CARE. They want to spend
> several thousands of dollars and receive many more thousands in
> benefits. But, insurance doesn't work that way. If you buy car
> insurance the company is betting you won't need to use it. And most
> people don't. But, have a few accidents, even if they are not your
> fault, and your rates will climb significantly. You may get
> cancelled. With health insurance everyone expects to use it, even if
> only for preventative care.
>
> This is why so many people are calling for single payer universal
> coverage. You may not like what other industrialize countries have,
> because they make hard choices in delivery of service. But, Forrest's
> story is not unusual. We, also, ration health care. We just do it in
> a different way. Ability to pay. And, that waiting time people talk
> about. I live in Ann Arbor, MI. The University of Michigan competes
> with St. Joseph Mercy Hospital for patients. But, when I injured my
> shoulder I waited weeks to get an MRI and then two months to see the
> orthopedist my primary doctor recommended. It was worth the wait
> because he was the best and saved my career.
>
> I now find myself in Forrest's position. Health insurance is just too
> expensive. My partner was lucky. She got the right kind of cancer.
> Breast. There's a government program called Title XV for that. Had
> she had lymphoma we would have been selling the house just to get a
> hospital to treat her.
>
> With what this country spends for healthcare now, we could take care
> of every citizen at the same level France takes care of their
> citizens without spending any more money than we do. I don't expect
> it to happen in my life time. But, it will happen. There is no other
> logical solution.
>
> Kathi
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
| |
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