Karen Sullivan on mon 17 sep 07
Angela...
Perhaps you need more technical information
About the reasons why it is not a good idea
To fire the kiln inside a building...
At about 1000 degrees the kiln begins to
Vent sulpher and other organic materials
That are waste materials in the clay....
Those are not good to breathe in...
And those waste materials are important
To fire out of the vessels we make...
Also another fairly significant gas
That comes from a gas firing is carbon
Monoxide...if you breathe in enough
Carbon monoxide it can kill you...
And this gas is significant in the combustion
Of gas appliances....to recognize...try to
Remember to odor of reduction....
Perhaps just functionally...the wood
Frame of a house can only absorb about
150 degrees of heat repeatedly over time...before
The wood will ignite...
So there are various reasons not to
Fire inside a building....
It seems a waste to watch the heat
That you want to use for warmth..
Dissipate into the air...but it is wise
To do so...
Take care
Bamboo karen
Kathy Stecker on mon 17 sep 07
Carbon monoxide poisoning occurs after the inhalation of _carbon monoxide_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide) gas. Carbon monoxide (CO) is a
product of combustion of organic matter under conditions of restricted oxygen
supply, which prevents complete oxidation to _carbon dioxide_
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide) (CO2). Carbon monoxide is colorless,
odorless, tasteless, and non-irritating, making it difficult for people to detect.
Important :Please note the above you cannot detect Carbon Monoxide at all
unless you use a carbon monoxide detector
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Angela Davis on mon 17 sep 07
Hi Karen,
Good to see a post from you,
however I was the first one to tell Chae NOT to place
a gas kiln in the house. There are many reasons but I thought
the threat of death would be a good deterrant.
Hopefully Chae has taken the good advice from the list.
I have not had a reply to my email directly to him/her
and I've not seen one posted to the list.
So if you read this Chae please let us know you will not
place the gas kiln in the house. We need to get a little
sleep.
Angela Davis
In Homosassa, rainy and cool!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Sullivan"
To:
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:46 PM
Subject: Gas kiln inside
> Angela...
> Perhaps you need more technical information
> About the reasons why it is not a good idea
> To fire the kiln inside a building...
> At about 1000 degrees the kiln begins to
> Vent sulpher and other organic materials
> That are waste materials in the clay....
> Those are not good to breathe in...
> And those waste materials are important
> To fire out of the vessels we make...
>
> Also another fairly significant gas
> That comes from a gas firing is carbon
> Monoxide...if you breathe in enough
> Carbon monoxide it can kill you...
> And this gas is significant in the combustion
> Of gas appliances....to recognize...try to
> Remember to odor of reduction....
>
> Perhaps just functionally...the wood
> Frame of a house can only absorb about
> 150 degrees of heat repeatedly over time...before
> The wood will ignite...
>
> So there are various reasons not to
> Fire inside a building....
> It seems a waste to watch the heat
> That you want to use for warmth..
> Dissipate into the air...but it is wise
> To do so...
>
> Take care
> Bamboo karen
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date:
> 9/16/2007 6:32 PM
>
>
Chaeli Sullivan on wed 19 sep 07
Hello All
Angela -- am so sorry about not replying. Have been right out straight
trying to figure this whole "gas kiln inside the house" situation, line up
options, and research the heck out of the subject of carbon monoxide.
(Too, because i've be frazzled, didn't realize it was a personal email
which makes me doubly sorry i didn't reply to your thoughtfullness.)
OK -- here's the scoop as far as i'm able to currently configure it ....
Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2. air = 0.8 (28 - molecular weight) + O.2 (32)= 29
(exactly neutral, by definition)
So pure carbon monoxide is actually about 3% lighter than air. But
usually it is made in modest concentrations, mixed in with the normal
combustion products: CO2, H2O. Which are always mixed with the 80%
Nitrogen that never participates in burning. Then that mixes with room
air, making an even smaller concentration.
Plus -- it rises.
So
If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvanized metal vent cone, dropping it
by a chain/pulley system with the bottom of the cone resting 7 inches
above the kiln (big enough diameter to cover the kiln's diameter) and has
an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's) (placed inside the metal vent cone
this will vent the fumes outside through the hose which is also attached --
and one is relatively "safe". Additionally, open any available windows
and/or doors.
Putting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to the floor. Kiln
should be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall (more if you have
the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot clearance from the ceiling,
tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.
Additionally, one should stay with the kiln, watching it carefully to make
sure the flames stay lit, etc.
Hope that helps.
Chae
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:03:40 -0500, Angela Davis
wrote:
>Hi Karen,
>Good to see a post from you,
>however I was the first one to tell Chae NOT to place
>a gas kiln in the house. There are many reasons but I thought
>the threat of death would be a good deterrant.
>
>Hopefully Chae has taken the good advice from the list.
>I have not had a reply to my email directly to him/her
>and I've not seen one posted to the list.
>
>So if you read this Chae please let us know you will not
>place the gas kiln in the house. We need to get a little
>sleep.
>
>Angela Davis
>
>In Homosassa, rainy and cool!
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Karen Sullivan"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:46 PM
>Subject: Gas kiln inside
>
>
>> Angela...
>> Perhaps you need more technical information
>> About the reasons why it is not a good idea
>> To fire the kiln inside a building...
>> At about 1000 degrees the kiln begins to
>> Vent sulpher and other organic materials
>> That are waste materials in the clay....
>> Those are not good to breathe in...
>> And those waste materials are important
>> To fire out of the vessels we make...
>>
>> Also another fairly significant gas
>> That comes from a gas firing is carbon
>> Monoxide...if you breathe in enough
>> Carbon monoxide it can kill you...
>> And this gas is significant in the combustion
>> Of gas appliances....to recognize...try to
>> Remember to odor of reduction....
>>
>> Perhaps just functionally...the wood
>> Frame of a house can only absorb about
>> 150 degrees of heat repeatedly over time...before
>> The wood will ignite...
>>
>> So there are various reasons not to
>> Fire inside a building....
>> It seems a waste to watch the heat
>> That you want to use for warmth..
>> Dissipate into the air...but it is wise
>> To do so...
>>
>> Take care
>> Bamboo karen
>>
>>
Eva Gallagher on wed 19 sep 07
Hi Chae - apart from the danger of having it inside there is the issue that
a gas kiln inside will probably invalidate your house insurance. You may not
care about your life - but what about your house? If you are renting then
you may be sued if the house burns down.
Regards,
Eva Gallagher
Deep River, Ontario
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chaeli Sullivan"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Gas kiln inside
> Hello All
> Angela -- am so sorry about not replying. Have been right out straight
> trying to figure this whole "gas kiln inside the house" situation, line up
> options, and research the heck out of the subject of carbon monoxide.
> (Too, because i've be frazzled, didn't realize it was a personal email
> which makes me doubly sorry i didn't reply to your thoughtfullness.)
>
> OK -- here's the scoop as far as i'm able to currently configure it ....
>
> Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2. air = 0.8 (28 - molecular weight) + O.2 (32)= 29
> (exactly neutral, by definition)
> So pure carbon monoxide is actually about 3% lighter than air. But
> usually it is made in modest concentrations, mixed in with the normal
> combustion products: CO2, H2O. Which are always mixed with the 80%
> Nitrogen that never participates in burning. Then that mixes with room
> air, making an even smaller concentration.
> Plus -- it rises.
> So
> If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvanized metal vent cone, dropping it
> by a chain/pulley system with the bottom of the cone resting 7 inches
> above the kiln (big enough diameter to cover the kiln's diameter) and has
> an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's) (placed inside the metal vent cone
> this will vent the fumes outside through the hose which is also
> attached --
> and one is relatively "safe". Additionally, open any available windows
> and/or doors.
> Putting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to the floor. Kiln
> should be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall (more if you have
> the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot clearance from the ceiling,
> tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.
> Additionally, one should stay with the kiln, watching it carefully to make
> sure the flames stay lit, etc.
> Hope that helps.
> Chae
>
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:03:40 -0500, Angela Davis
> wrote:
>
>>Hi Karen,
>>Good to see a post from you,
>>however I was the first one to tell Chae NOT to place
>>a gas kiln in the house. There are many reasons but I thought
>>the threat of death would be a good deterrant.
>>
>>Hopefully Chae has taken the good advice from the list.
>>I have not had a reply to my email directly to him/her
>>and I've not seen one posted to the list.
>>
>>So if you read this Chae please let us know you will not
>>place the gas kiln in the house. We need to get a little
>>sleep.
>>
>>Angela Davis
>>
>>In Homosassa, rainy and cool!
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Karen Sullivan"
>>To:
>>Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:46 PM
>>Subject: Gas kiln inside
>>
>>
>>> Angela...
>>> Perhaps you need more technical information
>>> About the reasons why it is not a good idea
>>> To fire the kiln inside a building...
>>> At about 1000 degrees the kiln begins to
>>> Vent sulpher and other organic materials
>>> That are waste materials in the clay....
>>> Those are not good to breathe in...
>>> And those waste materials are important
>>> To fire out of the vessels we make...
>>>
>>> Also another fairly significant gas
>>> That comes from a gas firing is carbon
>>> Monoxide...if you breathe in enough
>>> Carbon monoxide it can kill you...
>>> And this gas is significant in the combustion
>>> Of gas appliances....to recognize...try to
>>> Remember to odor of reduction....
>>>
>>> Perhaps just functionally...the wood
>>> Frame of a house can only absorb about
>>> 150 degrees of heat repeatedly over time...before
>>> The wood will ignite...
>>>
>>> So there are various reasons not to
>>> Fire inside a building....
>>> It seems a waste to watch the heat
>>> That you want to use for warmth..
>>> Dissipate into the air...but it is wise
>>> To do so...
>>>
>>> Take care
>>> Bamboo karen
>>>
>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
Gordon Ward on wed 19 sep 07
Your red blood cells like carbon monoxide better than oxygen so it
doesn't very much to affect you. It is difficult to know when you
are being poisoned with it and it can cause brain damage or death.
It is one of the leading causes of accidental death in the country.
On Sep 19, 2007, at 4:33 PM, Chaeli Sullivan wrote:
> So pure carbon monoxide is actually about 3% lighter than air. But
> usually it is made in modest concentrations, mixed in with the normal
> combustion products: CO2, H2O. Which are always mixed with the 80%
> Nitrogen that never participates in burning. Then that mixes with
> room
> air, making an even smaller concentration.
> Plus -- it rises.
lela martens on thu 20 sep 07
Chae,
=20
It sounds to me that, I think you mentioned, the kiln is already in your
kitchen and you are trying very hard to make that alright. From a group
of around 3000 potters there has not been a single note saying what you
are doing is remotely OK because it isn`t.
The replies you have received have been sincere from smart, intelligent p=
eople
who know what they are talking about.=20
=20
=20
=20
but what about your house? If you are renting then> you may be sued if the=
house burns down.> Regards,
=20
=20
> > OK -- here's the scoop as far as i'm able to currently configure it ...=
.> >> > Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2. air =3D 0.8 (28 - molecular weight) + O.2 (=
32)=3D 29> > (exactly neutral, by definition)> > So pure carbon monoxide is=
actually about 3% lighter than air. But> > usually it is made in modest co=
ncentrations, mixed in with the normal> > combustion products: CO2, H2O. Wh=
ich are always mixed with the 80%> > Nitrogen that never participates in bu=
rning. Then that mixes with room> > air, making an even smaller concentrati=
on.> > Plus -- it rises.> > So> > If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvan=
ized metal vent cone, dropping it> > by a chain/pulley system with the bott=
om of the cone resting 7 inches> > above the kiln (big enough diameter to c=
over the kiln's diameter) and has> > an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's) (p=
laced inside the metal vent cone> > this will vent the fumes outside throug=
h the hose which is also> > attached --> > and one is relatively "safe". Ad=
ditionally, open any available windows> > and/or doors.
=20
It`s all been done thousands of times over by people who study,desighn, bui=
ld,=20
and fire these kilns. They all say NO!
> > Putting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to the floor. Kiln> >=
should be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall (more if you have> >=
the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot clearance from the ceiling,=
> > tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.> > Additionally, one =
should stay with the kiln, watching it carefully to make> > sure the flames=
stay lit, etc.
=20
Our guild rules are you should check the kiln often, but do NOT stay with i=
t.
> > Hope that helps.> > Chae
It doesn`t.
=20
> >>Hi Karen,> >>Good to see a post from you,> >>however I was the first on=
e to tell Chae NOT to place> >>a gas kiln in the house. There are many reas=
ons but I thought> >>the threat of death would be a good deterrant.> >>> >>=
Hopefully Chae has taken the good advice from the list.> >>I have not had a=
reply to my email directly to him/her> >>and I've not seen one posted to t=
he list.> >>> >>So if you read this Chae please let us know you will not> >=
>place the gas kiln in the house. We need to get a little> >>sleep.> >>> >>=
Angela Davis>
> >>> Perhaps you need more technical information> >>> About the reasons w=
hy it is not a good idea> >>> To fire the kiln inside a building...> >>> At=
about 1000 degrees the kiln begins to> >>> Vent sulpher and other organic =
materials> >>> That are waste materials in the clay....> >>> Those are not =
good to breathe in...> >>> And those waste materials are important> >>> To =
fire out of the vessels we make...> >>>> >>> Also another fairly significan=
t gas> >>> That comes from a gas firing is carbon> >>> Monoxide...if you br=
eathe in enough> >>> Carbon monoxide it can kill you...> >>> And this gas i=
s significant in the combustion> >>> Of gas appliances....to recognize...tr=
y to> >>> Remember to odor of reduction....>> >>> So there are various reas=
ons not to> >>> Fire inside a building....> >>> Bamboo karen=20
Yes, Karen, it`s nice to see you posting ! Maybe Lilli is reading this thr=
ead and will kick in,
because I don`t know of anything else we can say on the subject, but
Lilli might. She has a way...
Lela, who recently took some good advice from Bonnie S. about a mixer.=20
We are both happy I listened.
_________________________________________________________________
Explore the seven wonders of the world
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=3D7+wonders+world&mkt=3Den-US&form=3DQ=
BRE=
claystevslat on thu 20 sep 07
Chaeli --
I admire your approach and the effort you put into this, but
I believe that you're wrong -- you have a potentially deadly
presumption in "... usually it is made in modest concentrations
..."
(1) The whole point to a gas kiln for most potters is to reduce
the atmosphere. This involves getting large concentrations
of carbon monoxide. A gas kiln isn't designed to be used
inside without a professional, heavy-duty venting system.
Even a plain little old gas water heater needs a professional
venting system to be safe in a home, and the size of the fire
there is tiny compared to a gas kiln.
(2) Usually you don't need to worry about the odd inert gas around
you, as you point out, inert nitrogen is 80% of what's around
us. The problem is that CO isn't inert -- it's a powerful
reducing agent. It will bond preferentially to oxygen with
the hemoglobin in your blood. This means that even if there's
adequate 'free' oxygen in the air, you can suffocate from CO
in the atmosphere.
(3) Being lighter, CO will rise -- eventually. But there will be
powerful air currents around a hot kiln, and so the CO will circulate
in a room -- or a home -- where a firing is taking place.
(4) It doesn't take much to kill you! As little as 40 ppm can
be fatal.
A home-brew system of a metal hood and a vent fan just isn't what
you want to use to try to make a gas kiln safe. If you can't afford
to get it professionally and properly installed and vented, you
shouldn't fire gas indoors. And if it's in a shed or workshop or
garage, you should absolutely NOT stay with it during firing.
It's always safer to observe through a window, breathing the clean
air of nature than to be right up next to a kiln ...
Sincerely -- Steve Slatin
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Chaeli Sullivan wrote:
>
> Hello All
> Angela -- am so sorry about not replying. Have been right out
straight
> trying to figure this whole "gas kiln inside the house" situation,
line up
> options, and research the heck out of the subject of carbon
monoxide.
> (Too, because i've be frazzled, didn't realize it was a personal
email
> which makes me doubly sorry i didn't reply to your thoughtfullness.)
>
> OK -- here's the scoop as far as i'm able to currently configure
it ....
>
> Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2. air =3D 0.8 (28 - molecular weight) + O.2
(32)=3D 29
> (exactly neutral, by definition)
> So pure carbon monoxide is actually about 3% lighter than air. But
> usually it is made in modest concentrations, mixed in with the
normal
> combustion products: CO2, H2O. Which are always mixed with the 80%
> Nitrogen that never participates in burning. Then that mixes with
room
> air, making an even smaller concentration.
> Plus -- it rises.
> So
> If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvanized metal vent cone,
dropping it
> by a chain/pulley system with the bottom of the cone resting 7
inches
> above the kiln (big enough diameter to cover the kiln's diameter)
and has
> an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's) (placed inside the metal vent
cone
> this will vent the fumes outside through the hose which is also
attached --
> and one is relatively "safe". Additionally, open any available
windows
> and/or doors.
> Putting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to the floor.
Kiln
> should be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall (more if you
have
> the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot clearance from the
ceiling,
> tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.
> Additionally, one should stay with the kiln, watching it carefully
to make
> sure the flames stay lit, etc.
> Hope that helps.
> Chae
Earl Brunner on thu 20 sep 07
I"ve seen gas kilns indoors. In college, we had a 30 c.f. and a 20 c.f. Al=
pine updraft on the third floor of a 5 story building.=0AI've seen them in =
garages, warehouses, and one even in someone's basement (that they were sel=
ling on Ebay). But I believe you originally said yoiu wanted to put this i=
n the kitchen. What kind of house do you live in? All that you discribe b=
elow would look just wonderful in the decor. All this energy you are putti=
ng into trying to make this work inside..... What's wrong with outside agai=
n, I missed that part.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: claystev=
slat =0ATo: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=0ASent: Thursd=
ay, September 20, 2007 2:09:06 AM=0ASubject: Re: Gas kiln inside=0A=0A=0A=
=0A--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Chaeli Sullivan wrote:=
=0A>=0A> Hello All=0A=0A=0A> If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvanized =
metal vent cone,=0Adropping it=0A> by a chain/pulley system with the bottom=
of the cone resting 7=0Ainches=0A> above the kiln (big enough diameter to =
cover the kiln's diameter)=0Aand has=0A> an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's=
) (placed inside the metal vent=0Acone=0A> this will vent the fumes outside=
through the hose which is also=0Aattached --=0A> and one is relatively "s=
afe". Additionally, open any available=0Awindows=0A> and/or doors.=0A> Put=
ting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to the floor.=0AKiln=0A> sho=
uld be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall (more if you=0Ahave=0A> =
the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot clearance from the=0Aceiling=
,=0A> tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.=0A> Additionally, o=
ne should stay with the kiln, watching it carefully=0Ato make=0A> sure the =
flames stay lit, etc.=0A> Hope that helps.=0A> Chae=0A=0A__________________=
____________________________________________________________
Michael Wendt on thu 20 sep 07
Chae,
I have worked with the kind of gas kilns you
describe since I started 35 years ago.
Unlike an electric kiln, the volume of exhaust
gases is quite substantial. Even if you
place a 265 cfm vent fan in the exhaust stream,
it will only work until the motor reaches the
maximum temperature the fan can handle
at which time, it will burn out right when you
need it most. I used an infrared thermometer
to take readings in the vent hood and they
are several hundred degrees... hot enough
to ruin any motor.
Most motors specify a maximum ambient of
40 degrees Celsius (104 F ) and even attic vent
motors rarely see 65 degrees C (about 150 F).
I use 2 3000 cfm make up air fans to inject
fresh air into the kiln room and keep it cool.
NOTE:
The floor under a gas kiln gets far hotter
because it is where the burners are and they
radiate a lot of heat.
Are you an engineer or something
we don't know about that has design experience
with high temperatures? Even if you can solve the
temperature issues, please listen to the others
who have warned you about Carbon Monoxide!
It builds up in the red blood cells with exposure
and takes time to eliminate so you may not
even realize you are being poisoned.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvanized metal
vent cone, dropping it
by a chain/pulley system with the bottom of the cone
resting 7 inches
above the kiln (big enough diameter to cover the kiln's
diameter) and has
an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's) (placed inside the
metal vent cone
this will vent the fumes outside through the hose which
is also attached --
and one is relatively "safe". Additionally, open any
available windows
and/or doors.
Putting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to
the floor. Kiln
should be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall
(more if you have
the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot
clearance from the ceiling,
tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.
Additionally, one should stay with the kiln, watching
it carefully to make
sure the flames stay lit, etc.
Hope that helps.
Chae
Brandon Phillips on thu 20 sep 07
ok....are you seriously still talking about putting an OPEN FLAME GAS KILN
in your home after all these people have had to say? how stupid are you?
forgive my rudeness but i believe the situation warrants it.
one of our local universities here has an olympic torchbearer that is 3'4"
from a painted cinderblock wall(yes, i went and measured-point to be
proven). the paint is peeled and discolored directly across from the kiln
FROM THE HEAT! i have no doubt if it were a wood or sheetrock wall it would
have caught fire long ago. and this kiln is outdoors where much of the heat
can dissipate. imagine that in your kitchen. i have no doubt that
this could burn your house down. potters do many sketchy things for the
sake of creating their art, but even the most foolhardy would not attempt
this. remember that if a fire starts it is most likely to start from
radiant heat, not from the burners. you can shut the burners off but you
can't shut the radiant heat off. so you're gonna sit there all through the
firing and through the majority of the cool down? i don't think so.
another point to remember is that your model of kiln has very thin walls.
2.5 or 3". the average homebuilt kiln has 9". in a closed space you are
not going to be able to get near that thing.
what does your family think about this? are their children or pets in your
home? to be honest i would not hesitate to call cps and the fire dept. if i
lived near you. you're being an idiot and playing with your safety and
possibly the safety of others. and there is no way any home owners
insurance would cover a fire from an unpermitted 2000 degree+ kiln in your
kitchen.
put your kilns outside.
brandon phillips
www.supportyourlocalpotter.com
>
> >So
> >If one attaches (to the ceiling) a galvanized metal vent cone, dropping
> it
> >by a chain/pulley system with the bottom of the cone resting 7 inches
> >above the kiln (big enough diameter to cover the kiln's diameter) and has
> >an exhaust fan (at least 265 CFM's) (placed inside the metal vent cone
> >this will vent the fumes outside through the hose which is also attached
> --
> >and one is relatively "safe". Additionally, open any available windows
> >and/or doors.
> >Putting fire brick under the kiln prevents damage to the floor. Kiln
> >should be placed no less than 18 inches from any wall (more if you have
> >the space) and should probably have a 4-5 foot clearance from the
> ceiling,
> >tho the venting system deflects some of the heat.
> >Additionally, one should stay with the kiln, watching it carefully to
> make
> >sure the flames stay lit, etc.
> >Hope that helps.
> >Chae
>
>
> >So if you read this Chae please let us know you will not
> >place the gas kiln in the house. We need to get a little
> >sleep.
> >
> >Angela Davis
> >
> >In Homosassa, rainy and cool!
> >
>
Chaeli Sullivan on thu 20 sep 07
Thanks for your reply Steve
Can you describe the specifics of "a professional, heavy-duty venting
system" for me so i can comply?
Thanks
Chae
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:09:06 -0000, claystevslat
wrote:
A gas kiln isn't designed to be used
>inside without a professional, heavy-duty venting system.
>
>Sincerely -- Steve Slatin
>
Chaeli Sullivan on thu 20 sep 07
Good Morning Earl
Thanks for your reply. I, too, have seen gas kilns inside buildings which
is what gave me clue that it's possibly.
I live in a house situated well away from other houses and tho the other
rooms are average size, the kitchen is much larger and would give the area
necessary to put a kiln well away from the walls. Also, it has the
ventilation necessary to consider this -- two windows and a door to open.
Plus with the proper venting, the fumes can be vented out a window.
There are several reasons to have it inside rather than outside. Cost is
a great determining factor. Would rather buy a good venting system than
spend the money building an outside building. Since i've about tapped my
funds down to zero recently buying both kilns and a larger wheel, am
really watching pennies. If i build outside, there won't be money for the
venting system!
I would never leave a gas flame unattended (for i believe this is
dangerous expecially if burners went out) thus i'd be sitting outside in
building hastily constructed (winter's basically here) without a venting
system -- for i would have spent the money building an outside structure.
Thanks again for your reply.
Chae
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:36:41 -0700, Earl Brunner clay@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>I"ve seen gas kilns indoors. In college, we had a 30 c.f. and a 20 c.f.
Alpine updraft on the third floor of a 5 story building.
I've seen them in garages, warehouses, and one even in someone's basement
(that they were selling on Ebay). But I believe you originally said yoiu
wanted to put this in the kitchen. What kind of house do you live in?
All that you discribe below would look just wonderful in the decor. All
this energy you are putting into trying to make this work inside.....
What's wrong with outside again, I missed that part.
Chaeli Sullivan on thu 20 sep 07
Hi Michael
So the way to go with this is with (2) 3000 cfm fans?
Have 2 layers of rockboard between the kiln and the floor.
Chae
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:39:20 -0700, Michael Wendt
wrote:
>I use 2 3000 cfm make up air fans to inject
>fresh air into the kiln room and keep it cool.
>NOTE:
>The floor under a gas kiln gets far hotter
>because it is where the burners are and they
>radiate a lot of heat.
Twirt at Hutchtel on thu 20 sep 07
OK Chae,
I wasn't going to enter because you are getting enough information (all
accurate) from the list...but, sorry this is harsh, you just don't seem to
be getting it! You seem to be trying equate a gas kiln to your experience
with electrics.
There is no similarity except they heat pots. The window and door will NOT
offer enough air and draft. Without a major hood over it and make up air
feeding that hood, you will torch the kitchen, even with the double sheet
rock. Double sheetrock gives you about 1 hour at heat before the wood
behind it torches. Over time, as has been noted here, the wood will burst
into flame at 160 degF. Ask me, I know from a burned down kiln building.
And believe the list, if you don't have specific insurance coverage, after
the house burns down, the insurance company will see the kiln and deny
coverage. You say cost is an issue, can you afford to rebuild the house
without insurance help?
A simple shed roof of metal on 4 posts and a few 2x4's will give you enough
shelter. Not as expensive as the vent hood and insulation you would have to
have to even THINK about this scheme.
You can calculate the amount of air you HAVE to move for this kiln by taking
the gas input and heat output and figuring out how much air that combustion
will take. Olympic can help with this calculation.
C'mon. We're trying to save your butt here.
Tom Wirt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chaeli Sullivan"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Gas kiln inside
> Good Morning Earl
> Thanks for your reply. I, too, have seen gas kilns inside buildings which
> is what gave me clue that it's possibly.
> I live in a house situated well away from other houses and tho the other
> rooms are average size, the kitchen is much larger and would give the area
> necessary to put a kiln well away from the walls. Also, it has the
> ventilation necessary to consider this -- two windows and a door to open.
> Plus with the proper venting, the fumes can be vented out a window.
> There are several reasons to have it inside rather than outside. Cost is
> a great determining factor. Would rather buy a good venting system than
> spend the money building an outside building. Since i've about tapped my
> funds down to zero recently buying both kilns and a larger wheel, am
> really watching pennies. If i build outside, there won't be money for the
> venting system!
> I would never leave a gas flame unattended (for i believe this is
> dangerous expecially if burners went out) thus i'd be sitting outside in
> building hastily constructed (winter's basically here) without a venting
> system -- for i would have spent the money building an outside structure.
> Thanks again for your reply.
> Chae
>
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:36:41 -0700, Earl Brunner > clay@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>>I"ve seen gas kilns indoors. In college, we had a 30 c.f. and a 20 c.f.
> Alpine updraft on the third floor of a 5 story building.
> I've seen them in garages, warehouses, and one even in someone's basement
> (that they were selling on Ebay). But I believe you originally said yoiu
> wanted to put this in the kitchen. What kind of house do you live in?
> All that you discribe below would look just wonderful in the decor. All
> this energy you are putting into trying to make this work inside.....
> What's wrong with outside again, I missed that part.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
Larry Kruzan on fri 21 sep 07
Frankly I cannot believe how many times the right answer has been given and
the facts ignored - just DON'T do it! This is without a doubt about as
dangerous as reloading ammunition in your kitchen with the oven on, while
smoking and using candles for light - not a question of if you will die,
just how soon and how many go with you. Hope your insurance is paid up.
Of course after the fire and funeral your heirs would probably sue the kiln
manufacturer for building a dangerous product raising the costs for the rest
of us that knew it was not a real smart thing to do.
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Chaeli Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 12:54 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: [CLAYART] Gas kiln inside
Hi Michael
So the way to go with this is with (2) 3000 cfm fans?
Have 2 layers of rockboard between the kiln and the floor.
Chae
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:39:20 -0700, Michael Wendt
wrote:
>I use 2 3000 cfm make up air fans to inject
>fresh air into the kiln room and keep it cool.
>NOTE:
>The floor under a gas kiln gets far hotter
>because it is where the burners are and they
>radiate a lot of heat.
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots2@visi.com
Jeanie Silver on fri 21 sep 07
Chae
Thirty years ago in the dark ages, we installed an updraft gas kiln(in
design a precursor to your Olympic) in an unusually high ceilinged basement.
We had a homemade but extremely effective venting system out a window. The
kiln was situated by a large, barn-style door that was always open. We
sheilded the ceiling above the vent, six feet away from the kiln, with heavy
sheet metal. I fired this kiln without incident for six yearsEXCEPT IF YOU
COUNT THE INCIDENT WHERE WE ALMOST DIED OF CARBON MONOXIDE POISONING_ OR THE
INCIDENT WHERE A BLOWBACK IGNITED A PREVIOUSLY UNSUSPECTED LEAK IN THE PIPE
AND CAUSED A FIRE. When we were moving and removed the sheet metal from the
ceiling, we found that the joist six feet above and eight feet to the side
of the kiln was deeply charred. By chance, I survived my own stupidity.
How will you fare with yours.? The only reason I am writing is to assuage
my conscience.
Of course you will choose your own fate.
Jeanie in Pa.
Helen Bates on sat 22 sep 07
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:28:07 -0400, Edouard Bastarache Inc.
wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>I have a gas kiln inside a 2-story summer kitchen.
Edouard, is your summer kitchen free-standing (non-attachee) or attached to
your house?
The only summer kitchens I have seen in the parts of rural Ontario where I
have lived or visited were attached to the back of the farmhouse. They
always had a wood-stove in them, but the floor was probably dirt, stone, or
concrete. The stove was at the wall farthest from the main house.
In summer kitchens shown online, there are more that are free-standing,
though I saw a few examples of attached ones, including one handsome brick
two-story kitchen (summer kitchen, that is) attached as an "ell" to the
larger main home, which was also of brick.
Helen
Michael Wendt on sat 22 sep 07
Chae wrote:
"Hi Michael
So the way to go with this is with (2) 3000 cfm fans?
Have 2 layers of rockboard between the kiln and the
floor.
Chae
On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:39:20 -0700, Michael Wendt
wrote:
>I use 2 3000 cfm make up air fans to inject
>fresh air into the kiln room and keep it cool."
NO! My kiln room is separate from the
studio and still we ventilate it super well.
I am saying: DON'T DO IT IN THE HOUSE!
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on sat 22 sep 07
Hello all,
I have a gas kiln inside a 2-story summer kitchen.
Check this out :
http://gazkiln.blogspot.com/
I have been firing it for 20 years so far.
Gis la revido,
(A la revoyure)
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/livres.htm
http://www.pshcanada.com/Toxicology.htm
http://www.ceramique.com/librairie/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://myblogsmesblogs.blogspot.com/
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