Earl Brunner on fri 21 sep 07
That's a really nice "smoker" you have there.............=0A=0A=0A----- Ori=
ginal Message ----=0AFrom: Charles Hightower =
=0ATo: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=0ASent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:22:12 =
PM=0ASubject: Getting kiln legal=0A=0A=0AOk. Here is my situation. I conver=
ted an old electric to a cone 10 natural=0Agas kiln. Pretty straight forwar=
d job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There is=0Aan existing natural gas line=
sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing a=0ANG grill. Well, I couldn'=
t resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the kiln=0Aand fired up. Cone 9,=
seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern is=0Athat I may now hav=
e an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm=0Asure there are o=
ther potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is=0Aquite small. H=
ow should I handle the gasman?=0A=0A_______________________________________=
_______________________________________=0ASend postings to clayart@lsv.cera=
mics.org=0A=0AYou may look at the archives for the list or change your subs=
cription=0Asettings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/=0A=0AModerator of=
the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
Frank Colson on fri 21 sep 07
Don't wake a sleeping cat! Handle it only if an outside source confronts
you with the situation!
I've seen kilns operate off of a gerry-rig suction device hooked up to an
appartment gas outlet in NYC!
No one caught on until they noticed the gas bill going through the roof!
Frank Colson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Hightower"
To:
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: Getting kiln legal
> Ok. Here is my situation. I converted an old electric to a cone 10 natural
> gas kiln. Pretty straight forward job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There
> is
> an existing natural gas line sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing
> a
> NG grill. Well, I couldn't resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the
> kiln
> and fired up. Cone 9, seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern
> is
> that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm
> sure there are other potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is
> quite small. How should I handle the gasman?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
Charles Hightower on fri 21 sep 07
Ok. Here is my situation. I converted an old electric to a cone 10 natural
gas kiln. Pretty straight forward job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There is
an existing natural gas line sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing a
NG grill. Well, I couldn't resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the kiln
and fired up. Cone 9, seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern is
that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm
sure there are other potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is
quite small. How should I handle the gasman?
John Sankey on sat 22 sep 07
"My concern is that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made
a single phone call."
Do you have any insurance whatsoever related to your property?
Do you want to find out that you aren't covered for anything
(fire or public liability in particular) when it's too late?
Do you want the gas company to cut off your service on the spot
even if it's the middle of winter if they discover it? If you
don't mind, just follow the advice you've been getting.
Unless your setup has been inspected and hooked up by a licensed
gas installer, not only can your insurance company walk away from
any claim you might have to make, but you are liable for
consequential damages if anything happens that might be related
to your kiln no matter how remotely. And if you are in business
selling pottery, add your equivalent of our Workmen's
Compensation fines in case of any accident, no matter how minor.
I wouldn't touch the risk with a ten foot pole myself.
My electric kiln is installed 100% in accordance with CSA regs,
and my insurance company knows about it, in writing.
--
Include 'Byrd' in the subject line of your reply
to get through my spam filter.
Dannon Rhudy on sat 22 sep 07
Is there any reason for the gas man to know
about the kiln? Does he come wandering around
back of your house? Tell him it is a Texas barbeque
pit, if it arises.
Might be a good idea to bury your gas line. There
isn't anything illegal about your kiln unless kilns are
illegal where you are. Many have been converted
from old electrics, no reason not to do it.
But, don't borrow trouble, as grandpa used to say.
regards
Dannon Rhudy
. My concern is
> that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone
call......
Jim Brooks on sat 22 sep 07
just pay the bill...... If you call they-- and the city--are going to
require a lot more safety stuff before installation .. SOme of it is
overkill.. some isnt..
**************************************
See what's new at
http://www.aol.com
Brandon Phillips on sat 22 sep 07
> i wouldn't worry too much about it. the "gasman" is probably just a meter
> reader who makes 12 bucks an hour and doesn't even care what you have hooked
> up. in fact the gas company probably won't care at all. they are just
> there to provide you with gas and take your money, the city is there to
> check for code violations. the only way that is going to happen is if you
> make someone upset with your kiln and they call the city. i'm not sure
> where you are but here in abilene, texas i built a catenary arch salt kiln
> with crappy venturi burners without any kind of safety system when
> inspected, and the city inspector and fire chief both signed off in about 2
> minutes(i later added basos for my own piece of mind.) if they do come out
> they would probably only care about the above ground plumbing, it either
> needs to be buried or attached to an immovable structure(side of house.)
> until it comes out to meet up with the kiln. here in abilene if you are
> caught doing your own gas plumbing without a permit you have to pay a $200
> fine and then get put on the inspectors s**t-list. of course as a homeowner
> this would be a very minor violation to them and you could play the dumb
> card and they would probably let it slide as long as you get it done
> properly. but i would say maybe fix the plumbing and then don't even worry
> about it.
brandon phillips
www.supportyourlocalpotter.com
----- Original Message ----
> From: Charles Hightower
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:22:12 PM
> Subject: Getting kiln legal
>
>
> Ok. Here is my situation. I converted an old electric to a cone 10 natural
> gas kiln. Pretty straight forward job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There
> is
> an existing natural gas line sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing
> a
> NG grill. Well, I couldn't resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the
> kiln
> and fired up. Cone 9, seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern
> is
> that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm
> sure there are other potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is
> quite small. How should I handle the gasman?
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
WJ Seidl on sat 22 sep 07
Gee, and here I was thinking "outdoor oven",
kind of like the "summer kitchens" we had
when I was a kid.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
Earl Brunner wrote:
> That's a really nice "smoker" you have there.............
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Charles Hightower
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 7:22:12 PM
> Subject: Getting kiln legal
>
>
> Ok. Here is my situation. I converted an old electric to a cone 10 natural
> gas kiln. Pretty straight forward job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There is
> an existing natural gas line sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing a
> NG grill. Well, I couldn't resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the kiln
> and fired up. Cone 9, seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern is
> that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm
> sure there are other potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is
> quite small. How should I handle the gasman?
>
>
Richard Aerni on sat 22 sep 07
Lots of questions arise...
Do you live in a crowded area where the kiln would present a hazard?
Why would the kiln be any more hazardous than the old BBQ grill that was on
the patio?
What is the problem with the gas man? Would he see the kiln when he comes
to read the meter? If so, and you don't want to get the kiln "legal" (legal
with whom?...the insurance company,the city, the gas company, the fire
dept???), why not just cover it with a BBQ grill cover when not in use, or
else read the meter yourself and call in the reading?
Most every kiln is illegal in some respect. As referenced above, you may be
legal with the fire department, the gas company, but not with the city
building codes. ie High heat device in a residential area, or perhaps using
an industrial tool in a residential area not zoned for mixed use occupancy.
In my experience, if the authorities want to find something illegal, they
can easily do so, no matter how many precautions you take.
So, it gets down to this...how comfortable are you with using this kiln as
is. If you are comfortable, then just do it, if you feel it is safe. If
you lie awake nights worrying about it's potential illegality, then go for
making it legal, but be prepared for a lengthy process that may not work out
the way you wish it to.
Good luck,
Richard Aerni
Rochester, NY
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:22:12 -0500, Charles Hightower
wrote:
>Ok. Here is my situation. I converted an old electric to a cone 10 natural
>gas kiln. Pretty straight forward job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There is
>an existing natural gas line sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing a
>NG grill. Well, I couldn't resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the kiln
>and fired up. Cone 9, seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern is
>that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm
>sure there are other potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is
>quite small. How should I handle the gasman?
Brandon Phillips on sun 23 sep 07
"most cities allow homeowners to do their own plumbing"
"Water plumbing yes, gas plumbing no way to the best of my
knowledge."
i guess it just depends on where you are. here in abilene, texas you can do
any work on residential property if you own and live on it. they require
you to meet with the inspector and take a written test of sorts and then you
can pull your permit to do anything you like. they will however make you
hire someone licensed if they come out and its obvious you don't know what
the hell you're doing. they don't like having their time wasted and they're
not there to teach you how to do something. i've never lived somewhere that
didn't allow homeowners to do their own work, but i have always lived
somewhere relatively rural. i believe its useful to know how to do some of
this work. its nice to know if i ever have a problem with my gas line that
i'm not going to have to pay $500 to someone to get it fixed. twenty bucks
for the permit and whatever the materials cost, and a little of my time
which as a potter is not worth near as much as a plumbers. there are many
potters on this list who have done much of their own plumbing work and done
it properly. i guess it just depends on your level of competence and where
you live.
brandon phillips
www.supportyourlocalpotter.com
Brandon Phillips on sun 23 sep 07
Subject: Re: Getting kiln legal
john is right. if you feel that your kiln is a danger to your property i
would call your insurance company and check things out. i am not covered
for damage from my kiln because it was going to be astronomical. so i
placed my kiln several hundred feet from my house inside of a non-flammable
structure. i do not leave it unattended. is there a possibility that
something could go wrong? yes. but they are odds that i am willing to
accept. whatever odds you are willing to accept is your choice. i would
not fire an olympic updraft on my back porch or near my house. i would move
it a good distance away and either put a cement pad under it or at least
clear anything flammable for a good distance around it.
gas installer, >
most cities allow homeowners to do their own plumbing. with a permit of
course, and the city may inspect the final hookup. this can save you a lot
of money if you are familiar with gas plumbing. but again, check with your
insurance to find out if thats ok. i would think that the ok from a city
inspector would hold weight with the insurance company. whether you do it
or a licensed plumber does it, it still has to be inspected by the city.
my only concern is that the city wouldn't let you have the kiln. its
happened, check the archives. if they tell you that you can't have it and
then you hook it up anyways and then get caught, boy thats a world of mess
you don't want to deal with.
sometimes its easier to be forgiven than it is to get permission. not with
your insurance company though.
i would be curious to know exactly how many other people on this list have
permitted/non-permitted, insured/non-insured kiln setups.
brandon phillips
www.supportyourlocalpotter.com
On 9/22/07, John Sankey wrote:
>
> "My concern is that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made
> a single phone call."
>
> Do you have any insurance whatsoever related to your property?
> Do you want to find out that you aren't covered for anything
> (fire or public liability in particular) when it's too late?
> Do you want the gas company to cut off your service on the spot
> even if it's the middle of winter if they discover it? If you
> don't mind, just follow the advice you've been getting.
>
> Unless your setup has been inspected and hooked up by a licensed
> gas installer, not only can your insurance company walk away from
> any claim you might have to make, but you are liable for
> consequential damages if anything happens that might be related
> to your kiln no matter how remotely. And if you are in business
> selling pottery, add your equivalent of our Workmen's
> Compensation fines in case of any accident, no matter how minor.
>
> I wouldn't touch the risk with a ten foot pole myself.
> My electric kiln is installed 100% in accordance with CSA regs,
> and my insurance company knows about it, in writing.
>
> --
> Include 'Byrd' in the subject line of your reply
> to get through my spam filter.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
> settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
Larry Kruzan on sun 23 sep 07
First: Are you a commercial pottery or a hobbyist? If you are a fulltime or
part time potter making pots for income you are a business, and all sorts of
permit, insurance, zoning and licensing issues come up but if you are a
hobbyist there are much fewer or no headaches.
Secondly: I am required to have a business license and liability insurance
as well as fire coverage for my business. The insurance company sent a
inspector to check out my 100 CF cart kiln that I built and the Ward burners
before they would extend coverage to it - but insured the building that
housed it without any hesitation. Be thorough on this one - nobody wants to
hear that they gave the insurance company a easy out after a tragedy.
Before going "public" with a real storefront I worked in my garage and when
I got my first kiln I called my agent to up the coverage. He asked for the
make, model, and serial number of the kiln and after a little discussion we
decided that I was a hobbyist at that time. No Problem but they needed to
know.
Thirdly: I had no zoning or inspection concerns since the small town where
my shop is located has no inspectors - that was a shock to me when I found
that out. Some areas have just about established equity between inspectors
and citizens - One inspector for each citizen, after all somebody has to
make sure all door knobs rotate clockwise - and heaven forbid a light switch
got put in upside down, Right? I put my toilet paper on the spindle the
wrong way just bug such people.
Larry Kruzan
Lost Creek Pottery
www.lostcreekpottery.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Charles
Hightower
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 9:22 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: [CLAYART] Getting kiln legal
Ok. Here is my situation. I converted an old electric to a cone 10 natural
gas kiln. Pretty straight forward job. Has BASO valve, pilots, etc. There is
an existing natural gas line sticking out from the patio for I'm guessing a
NG grill. Well, I couldn't resist. I plumbed a line above ground to the kiln
and fired up. Cone 9, seven hours. Perfect firing. Nice reds. My concern is
that I may now have an illegal kiln. I never made a single phone call. I'm
sure there are other potters in the same boat. The kiln at 7 cubic feet is
quite small. How should I handle the gasman?
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Send postings to clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list or change your subscription
settings from http://www.ceramics.org/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots2@visi.com
Lois Ruben Aronow on sun 23 sep 07
>
> sometimes its easier to be forgiven than it is to get
> permission. not with your insurance company though.
At the very least you're being a bad neighbor; at worse you're being a
reckless menace. Your neighbors shouldn't be subjected to your kiln
exhaust. If your illegal hookup burns your house down, it's (technically)
your problem only. If you live in a city, or anywhere with close neighbors
- you're looking at lawsuits and bankruptcy. Not a risk I'd want to take.
I know that here in NY, the laws are quite strict, even regarding barbecue
grills, outdoor gas, and propane. We are allowed a grill (with plumbed gas
outdoors) only because we have a 1 family house. If there was an apartment,
we would have been denied the permit to bring the gas outside. This is for
a regular Home-Depot bought Weber grill. I don't make the laws and it is
not my place to decide if they are stupid or if they should apply to me.
BUT - my neighbors would not be thrilled if I had a kiln in my basement.
Come to think of it - the insurance company never got back to me with a
quote on that.
Kilns are a different story, and are only allowed in commercial bldgs in
commercial zoning, among other regulations. You can easily put out a grease
fire, but if your jerry-rigged gas kiln has a problem at 2 am - even if you
are watching it - that's trouble.
John Sankey on sun 23 sep 07
"if you feel that your kiln is a danger to your property"
The gas company and insurance company are the ones who have to
feel that way, not just the homeowner.
"most cities allow homeowners to do their own plumbing"
Water plumbing yes, gas plumbing no way to the best of my
knowledge.
--
Include 'Byrd' in the subject line of your reply
to get through my spam filter.
WJ Seidl on mon 24 sep 07
Speaking of kilns indoors and out, fires in and out of kilns brought up
a memory...
Has anyone heard from Leland Hall lately?
IIRC, he was recovering from a fire at his place in Northern CA? WA? OR?
Just wondered how he's doing.
Best,
Wayne Seidl
>
KATHI LESUEUR on mon 24 sep 07
On Sep 24, 2007, at 12:26 AM, Brandon Phillips wrote:
> "most cities allow homeowners to do their own plumbing"
>
> "Water plumbing yes, gas plumbing no way to the best of my
> knowledge."
Depends on the city. I've done gas plumbing on both my kiln and my
home. I'm far more comfortable fooling with gas than electricity.
However, that said, the issue is the city and the insurance company.
What you hide from your insurance company will affect your coverage
if you have a loss. It doesn't matter if the kiln had anything to do
with it. In the house, outside of the house, 75 feet away. Doesn't
matter. It's a risk factor you didn't inform them about and they can
use it to deny your claim. My advice is to tell them what you are
doing and buy the coverage necessary. It may be necessary to go to a
different company, one that also writes commercial insurance.
As for your city, you can hide your kiln. But, if a neighbor
complains your chances of keeping it go down substantially. My
approach would be to talk with your neighbors and tell them what you
have planned. Explain the safety steps you are taking with it. Then,
approach the city. I have friends who live in Tennessee who were
almost closed down. One of the things they did was to get the
building codes from Ann Arbor, MI governing kilns and home
businesses. To my knowledge there has never been a kiln accident in
this city and there are many kilns, gas and electric, here. The Ann
Arbor codes were used to rewrite their city codes.
Failure to comply with codes can be costly. Here there was a tailor
who wanted to move her business to her home from it's retail
location. She had a house built right next to a commercial property,
even had her name put in the brick work. But, she never got the
necessary permits to have a home business with the amount of traffic
she would generate. She never got the permit and I believe ended up
selling the property.
When you hide what you are doing people in authority always believe
there is a reason.
Kathi
>
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