Shula on tue 23 oct 07
I must agree with those who wrote before me. I don't like the forum format either. Yes, I am a member of several groups with that format, but I tend not to read them. I really like getting ClayArt via email.
Shula
working in San Diego, CA at the moment
home: Desert Hot Springs, CA
-----Original Message-----
>From: John Post
>I agree with John Hesselberth on the no email option being a deal breaker.
Laura Berkowitz on tue 23 oct 07
A few comments--The "forum features" list does not
seem quite complete so it is difficult to see all
available options, but one option that is listed is
the ability to "subscribe to forums..." (Also shown
as an option on the "User Control Panel" page.) This
is different from just receiving notification of posts
to the various forums. It can be a digest of that
forum delivered to your e-mail account. Some software
allows one to personally determine after how many
posts accumulate or hours pass to send the digest, and
which topics you want to subscribe to. I note this is
available on the "topic" level, too. But one would
have to try it out in demonstration to make sure
that's really what that option is.
Nevertheless, if one can not archive individual
e-mails in their own filing system on their own
computers, that is a problem for many people. It
makes it difficult to create one's own knowledge base
on our home systems, as many of us do with Clayart.
(I do note, a tab for "e-mail" at the bottom of a
sample post under "threaded view" and this may well
allow one to e-mail or forward a post to their
personal e-mail account--I can't tell for sure without
further info.) I also note a "Personal Notepad" under
one's "User Control Panel" but without playing with
it, I don't know how helpful it will be.
There are various programs that can help one create a
knowledge base when faced with a forum software
situation. I've used ndxCards. Some use social
bookmarking facilities such as del.icio.us which you
can add to your browser, free--but the posts need to
have a unique link identifier to do that. I do note
each post has a unique post number in plain sight--can
cut and paste--but I do not know about accessing a
unique link to bookmark.
Expect a learning curve which will be painful for some
users--has nothing to do with intelligence. It is
possible users will miss posts completely, and I can
not tell from the features lists whether one can
customize to manually clear "old posts" and "read
posts." Thus, not only as Bruce mentioned about the
accumulation of posts, but it is not clear from the
site what happens to posts that accumulate "while" one
is reading in a session. If one doesn't refresh their
screen to catch new posts, but logs out after spending
some time reading, it is quite possible the new posts
arriving during the session will not be seen by them
and will be considered "read" and or "old" on their
next visit. This can also be a problem if one doesn't
complete their reading in a session. Again--I can not
tell if that is the case here, but I do follow one
forum where that is the case depending on how one sets
their options.
If Clayart moves to this type of software, I'd suggest
some conferencing among those involved to predetermine
the best way to organize sub-forums and/or topics--and
do this ahead of time. Maybe ask the Clayart members
for ideas how they'd like to see these organized. I'd
also make sure there were at least two administrators
for each major sub-forum. Where as before, Mel or his
assignees read and approved the posts, with the forum
software, posts need to go into the right place--so
sometimes there is some reorganizing and moving of
posts around if users don't initially place the post
correctly.
I'd also suggest specific forum/topics be preset for
1) technical help with forum, and 2) suggestions for
forum. No. 1 is for users (those of you administering
the forum can have unlimited behind the scenes
forums/topics to discuss what you need to privately)
but I think you'll find a lot of people will be very
confused for awhile. So this is a specific place they
can ask questions on usage. I'd suggest using Clayart
volunteers that understand how to use the forum to
work this section, choosing 6-8 people from different
time zones so no user has to wait too long to get an
answer to their question. Think of it like a friendly
"help desk." No. 2, for suggestions, is just
that--where Clayarter's suggestions can be expressed
and someone can respond as to whether it will be
considered and/or the status of same in terms of
customizing the forum.
My other suggestion would be that several of you that
have knowledge using forums as a "user" (and some who
have worked as technical administrators) participate
in a lengthy demo, running through various scenarios
ahead of time, so there is a core of knowledgeable
users to help everyone else when the switch is made.
Laura
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
mel jacobson on tue 23 oct 07
here is a note from scott at acers.
this is the software that he is considering.
any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
it sure looks good to me.
mel, clayart, maurice and earl.
Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am Scott Freshour, the
web designer for Ceramic Arts Daily and ACerS. After much research
and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
piece of software for our new forum:
http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
Instant Forum.NET product).
We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
community that will be using it. It is feature rich and provides a
clean and powerful forum that is both intuitive and flexible. It does
not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience
with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the
base code. Please take a look, check out the free demo and let me
know what you think. I have already contacted our developers in
regard to this being our choice, pending a review by them as well.
from: mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
Clayart page link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Randall Moody on tue 23 oct 07
That looks excellent to me. I do like the idea of being able to post images,
which I notice that you can do with that software, since we talk glazes a
great deal and to see what that particular shino is doing would be a great
value. I think the idea of a board style of forum would be great since my
email box is getting bloated. Just my 2 cents.
Randall in Atlanta
On 10/23/07, mel jacobson wrote:
>
> here is a note from scott at acers.
> this is the software that he is considering.
>
> any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
> it sure looks good to me.
>
> mel, clayart, maurice and earl.
> Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am Scott Freshour, the
> web designer for Ceramic Arts Daily and ACerS. After much research
> and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
> capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
> piece of software for our new forum:
> http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
> Instant Forum.NET product).
>
> We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
> community that will be using it. It is feature rich and provides a
> clean and powerful forum that is both intuitive and flexible. It does
> not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience
> with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the
> base code. Please take a look, check out the free demo and let me
> know what you think. I have already contacted our developers in
> regard to this being our choice, pending a review by them as well.
>
>
>
> from: mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>
> Clayart page link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
L. P. Skeen on tue 23 oct 07
Ok, I did get a chuckle out of this sentence. I don't care if it's =
blue, I just care if it works reliably! :) LOL Off to have a look at =
the program now...
L
----- Original Message -----=20
From: mel jacobson=20
It does
not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience =
with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the base =
code.
James and Sherron Bowen on tue 23 oct 07
I like the idea of getting postings as individual e-mails. Hopefully we will
have options.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randall Moody"
I think the idea of a board style of forum would be great since my
email box is getting bloated. Just my 2 cents.
>
> Randall in Atlanta
>
Kathy Forer on tue 23 oct 07
On Oct 23, 2007, at 3:33 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> After much research
> and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
> capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
> piece of software for our new forum:
> http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
> Instant Forum.NET product).
>
> We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
> community that will be using it.
Why not Drupal? It's free, it's open source, it's highly popular.
http://www.drupal.org
Drupal is not .net and thus not tethered to micro$oft.
Which may be why it was not selected.
Instantasp doesn't seem to do very much...
I'm hoping to hear this is a supplement to an email listserv, not a
substitute. I don't like forums, they're cumbersome and indirect.
That's my opinion, YMMV.
--
Kathy Forer
www.foreverink.com
L. P. Skeen on tue 23 oct 07
er...we already DO get postings as individual emails....at least, I do. =
If you are on digest, you don't tho.
L
----- Original Message -----=20
From: James and Sherron Bowen=20
I like the idea of getting postings as individual e-mails.
Arnold Howard on tue 23 oct 07
The ideal system has a bulletin board and also gives the
option of receiving messages as individual emails. Yahoo
Groups works that way.
Bulletin boards are painfully slow even with a fast
connection. But once emails download to Outlook Express or
similar system, they can be sorted in seconds by date or
topic.
Bulletin boards are ideal for searching the archives or
asking a quick question without regular participation.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Digital Studio on tue 23 oct 07
Hey, this looks really nice!
As long as you don't put an annoying repeating image on the background
or change the HTML colors to something really high contrast, I'll like it.
:-)
mel jacobson wrote:
> here is a note from scott at acers.
> this is the software that he is considering.
>
> any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
> it sure looks good to me.
>
> mel, clayart, maurice and earl.
> Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am Scott Freshour, the
> web designer for Ceramic Arts Daily and ACerS. After much research
> and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
> capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
> piece of software for our new forum:
> http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
> Instant Forum.NET product).
>
> We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
> community that will be using it. It is feature rich and provides a
> clean and powerful forum that is both intuitive and flexible. It does
> not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience
> with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the
> base code. Please take a look, check out the free demo and let me
> know what you think. I have already contacted our developers in
> regard to this being our choice, pending a review by them as well.
>
>
>
> from: mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>
> Clayart page link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
--
Kendra Bogert
www.digital-studio.biz
641-208-6253
John Rodgers on tue 23 oct 07
I don't care for the forum format - not just his but most all. I've
never seen one that wasn't clunky.
Gotta be really careful with a change, as once done, it will be really
difficult if not impossible to back up, when glitches begin to appear. I
suspect that glitches will not be so much in the software as in the
minds and use of the software by the users and the recipients of the
output from the software. It has got to be super, super, super user
friendly.
My $0.02.
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
mel jacobson wrote:
> here is a note from scott at acers.
> this is the software that he is considering.
>
> any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
> it sure looks good to me.
>
> mel, clayart, maurice and earl.
> Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am Scott Freshour, the
> web designer for Ceramic Arts Daily and ACerS. After much research
> and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
> capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
> piece of software for our new forum:
> http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
> Instant Forum.NET product).
>
> We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
> community that will be using it. It is feature rich and provides a
> clean and powerful forum that is both intuitive and flexible. It does
> not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience
> with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the
> base code. Please take a look, check out the free demo and let me
> know what you think. I have already contacted our developers in
> regard to this being our choice, pending a review by them as well.
>
>
>
> from: mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>
> Clayart page link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
Timothy Joko-Veltman on tue 23 oct 07
On 10/23/07, Kathy Forer wrote:
> Why not Drupal? It's free, it's open source, it's highly popular.
> http://www.drupal.org
Or if they only want a forum solution, why not phpBB? Which is also
open source (free as in beer AND speech). From personal experience, I
can say that it is highly customizable, and extremely dependable.
Furthermore, one of, if not THE largest installation on the net
(forums.gentoo.org) has over 100,000 users, and 4 million posts, I
have never experienced difficulties using it in 5 years of frequenting
the forums there.
Another thought: in my experience JavaScript generated by ASP and .NET
(and they tend to use a lot) does not always run well in Firefox
(sometimes not at all).
Just my 2c.
Tim
James and Sherron Bowen on tue 23 oct 07
Yes we DO. And WE want to keep it that way.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. P. Skeen"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: new clayart software ideas
er...we already DO get postings as individual emails....at least, I do. If
you are on digest, you don't tho.
L
----- Original Message -----
From: James and Sherron Bowen
I like the idea of getting postings as individual e-mails.
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots2@visi.com
Bruce Glassford on tue 23 oct 07
(Yes, I do
that to support my clay habit...)
Observations of the software as presented on their page:
1) No e-mail posting or reception interface. The e-mail option allows
you to e-mail a post to someone, or to receive email notifications of
new posts. No listserv-type capability, allowing you to receive posts
or to post via e-mail.
2) No "New Posts" interface, only a "Recent Posts" - this, in my
experience, is a forum killer. Recent posts doesn't tell you what you
haven't seen - it only tells you what's showed up in that time period.
If Sam checks the forum hourly, and Pat checks it every three days,
it shows too many posts to Sam, and far too few to Pat. It's better
than one other forum I've seen which only has "Most recent threads"
which is completely useless - and it's shown in the usage there, which
dropped from over 500 active users as an e-list to less than 50 active
posters now (with a membership of 5000+).
3) Looks clunky - appears to be a single level of sub-forums. For
here, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference - one of the
beauties of Clayart in my opinion is that it's a single group, with
simultaneous discussions on many topics.
4) Highly graphical interface, with .NET components. For folks on
dial-up this may be a major problem - since they're using
intellisense, if you call in using Internet Explorer, it will likely
attempt to send self-installing components to the browser. (Possibly
trying to install the .NET client side, depending on how they wrote
the code).
5) No e-mail interface (yes, I'm repeating) - that will prevent digest
mode (another popular dial-up requirement).
It's cute, but it's not a substitute for an e-mail list - completely
different interface. There are also many other (and several free)
alternatives for forum software.
.... Bruce (off to glaze - third firing of the ^6 electric kiln
shortly. Experimenting is fun, but it was easier when I put the pots
on the magic shelf & they reappeared bisqued, then glazed them and put
them on magic shelf II and they appeared nice and shiny from the ^10
gas kiln.)
Mert & Holly Kilpatrick on tue 23 oct 07
I really like emails that come to me, and that sit very accessibly and
conveniently in my mailbox, rather than my having to go out to a forum and
click into one topic after another, and from one message to another, to
follow different threads, and frequently it is slow and cumbersome. I see
in the features list:
"Subscribe to forums and receive email notifications of new posts"
But notifications of emails are not the emails themselves.
I don't see a feature to opt to receive all postings as emails. I see:
"SS feeds available for all forums"
Maybe that would be a sort of substitute if I could figure it out, but I
haven't been too successful with RSS feeds up to now.
So my question would be, is there an option to receive all the emails as
individual emails with this new software? I don't see that option listed.
Holly
East Bangor, PA
John Hesselberth on tue 23 oct 07
Hi Everyone,
I looked at their web site and still haven't found that it has an
email option. If it does will someone who understands it state that
clearly and explain it?
I find my attention span for forums that I have to remember to go to
is pretty low. Having my Clayart mailbox full is about the only way I
manage to stay interested over a many year period--especially when
the conversation wanders away from clay like it frequently does. I am
virtually certain I would rapidly lose interest and drift away if
there is no email option--I certainly have from several other forums
I have tried. So will someone clarify that please? That is a deal
breaker from my perspective.
Regards,
John
On Oct 23, 2007, at 3:33 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> here is a note from scott at acers.
> this is the software that he is considering.
>
> any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
> it sure looks good to me.
>
> mel, clayart, maurice and earl.
> Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am Scott Freshour, the
> web designer for Ceramic Arts Daily and ACerS. After much research
> and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
> capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
> piece of software for our new forum:
> http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
> Instant Forum.NET product).
>
> We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
> community that will be using it. It is feature rich and provides a
> clean and powerful forum that is both intuitive and flexible. It does
> not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience
> with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the
> base code. Please take a look, check out the free demo and let me
> know what you think. I have already contacted our developers in
> regard to this being our choice, pending a review by them as well.
>
>
>
> from: mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>
> Clayart page link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change
> your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
John Hesselberth
www.frogpondpottery.com
"Man is a tool-using animal....without tools he is nothing, with
tools he is all" .... Thomas Carlyle
John Hesselberth on tue 23 oct 07
Bruce has answered my primary concern in a post I sent a few minutes
ago. If this turns out to be the case I would consider this system
completely unsatisfactory. I simply would not use it.
Regards,
John
On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:41 PM, Bruce Glassford wrote:
> 1) No e-mail posting or reception interface. The e-mail option allows
> you to e-mail a post to someone, or to receive email notifications of
> new posts. No listserv-type capability, allowing you to receive posts
> or to post via e-mail.
John Hesselberth
www.frogpondpottery.com
"Man is a tool-using animal....without tools he is nothing, with
tools he is all" .... Thomas Carlyle
Alisha Clarke on tue 23 oct 07
I agree with you completely, Arnold. Bulletin boards or web-based forums
alone are passive formats, requiring the user to visit the site and try to
figure out which of the thousands of postings they've already read. It also
needs to have the ability to actively distribute emails to user mailboxes.
From what I can tell from the InstantASP forum software that Mel is
proposing, it appears to be a forum-only format and that could cause
problems for a number of the ClayArt members.
The Yahoo Groups format has worked very well for PotteryBasics. We currently
have about 800 members and about 400 postings per month. Users can select
whether they want to receive individual emails, digests or just read
messages on-line at the web site. When it's configured and managed properly,
the groups can be virtually spam-free. I've been moderating that group for a
couple of years now and don't recall ever seeing a spam message make it
through to the general population. There are Yahoo groups with over 400,000
members, so it can definitely handle the volume of ClayArt, and it's free.
There's already a shadow Yahoo group that archives all of the ClayArt
emails. I don't know who moderates that group, but if they cooperate to
allow Mel and his moderators to be involved, it could theoretically pick
right up where the current email distribution ends without losing the
existing content.
There may also be other commercial software that offers both the passive and
active distribution like Yahoo Groups, but I haven't researched that.
Alisha
--------------------------------
www.alishaclarke.com
www.potterybasics.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterybasic
On 10/23/07, Arnold Howard wrote:
>
> The ideal system has a bulletin board and also gives the
> option of receiving messages as individual emails. Yahoo
> Groups works that way.
>
> Bulletin boards are painfully slow even with a fast
> connection. But once emails download to Outlook Express or
> similar system, they can be sorted in seconds by date or
> topic.
>
> Bulletin boards are ideal for searching the archives or
> asking a quick question without regular participation.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Arnold Howard
> Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
> ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alisha Clarke
www.alishaclarke.com
Veena Raghavan on tue 23 oct 07
As one who does not really like going to the archives, unless I have to
search for something in particular, or unless I am not receiving posts and wonder
whether Clayart is down, I am not at all happy with the idea of a web site
interface, or forum, or whatever it would be called. I am still on dial-up and
expect to be for the foreseeable future. I like receiving my Clayart posts in my
mailbox and being able to decide which ones I want to read and which I want to
delete. I feel that, if we change the format of Clayart from a e-mail-based
LISTSERV, we will lose a lot of members. I also feel that many of our generous
and contributing experts (John Hesselberth for one has expressed his feelings
on the subject, and I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood you, John)
will not find the time or inclination to be a part of Clayart. Clayart has
been a big part of my life, both in pottery and because of the friends I have
made through this list, so I would hate to see it change so radically. I can
quite understand that the system needs to be upgraded, that it needs to be made
easier for the moderators and ACERS to manage, but if you change the character
of this List, I personally feel it will lose, not only many of its members and
contributors, but what it has come to mean to many of us. I do hope that Mel
and ACERS will take into account the membership and its concerns. I hope that I
will be a member of this wonderful group for many years to come, because it
provides a generous and sharing community, a great deal of information, and has
a very important role to play in the lives of many potters. ACERS is making
many changes in its organization, but I do hope that it will not change Clayart
beyond recognition.
Thank you for listening to me.
Veena
VeenaRaghavan@cs.com
L. P. Skeen on tue 23 oct 07
I agree with John. I didn't realize when the first person mentioned the =
clayart as email option, that this is what he meant. A forum format is =
definitely not going to work for me, b/c I'll never remember to go check =
it. :( Shoot, I can't remember to check ANY group I'm in that doesn't =
come through email.
L
----- Original Message -----=20
From: John Hesselberth=20
I looked at their web site and still haven't found that it has an
email option. If it does will someone who understands it state that =
clearly and explain it?
I find my attention span for forums that I have to remember to go to
is pretty low. That is a deal
breaker from my perspective.
John Post on tue 23 oct 07
I agree with John Hesselberth on the no email option being a deal breaker.
If clayart goes to a forum format I will quickly lose interest.
Reading the subject lines in my email is like scanning the headlines of
a newspaper for me.
I only read a few clayart emails a day based on my interests at the time.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
> I am
> virtually certain I would rapidly lose interest and drift away if
> there is no email option--I certainly have from several other forums
> I have tried. So will someone clarify that please? That is a deal
> breaker from my perspective.
>
Maggie Jones on wed 24 oct 07
Thank you, Bruce, for clarifying the software.
I agree with John H.
I need to get my e-mails individually, I can't even handle scrolling thru
a digest to look for the threads I need. Subject lines are very useful
when used correctly and I like to keep the thread in the e-mail, such as
this one.
I also need to collect my e-mails and read them offline...dial-up.
Forum will not work.
William Melstrom...what do you think? how does the crystalline glaze
forum compare?
Maggie
http://TurtleIslandPottery.com
Maggie and Freeman Jones
.........next OPEN Oct 27th Bring a friend!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 20:55:11 -0400 John Hesselberth
writes:
> Bruce has answered my primary concern in a post I sent a few minutes
> ago. If this turns out to be the case I would consider this system
> completely unsatisfactory. I simply would not use it.
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
> On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:41 PM, Bruce Glassford wrote:
>
> (Yes, I do
that to support my clay habit...)
Observations of the software as presented on their page:
1) No e-mail posting or reception interface. The e-mail option allows
you to e-mail a post to someone, or to receive email notifications of
new posts. No listserv-type capability, allowing you to receive posts
or to post via e-mail.
2) No "New Posts" interface, only a "Recent Posts" - this, in my
experience, is a forum killer. Recent posts doesn't tell you what you
haven't seen - it only tells you what's showed up in that time period.
If Sam checks the forum hourly, and Pat checks it every three days,
it shows too many posts to Sam, and far too few to Pat. It's better
than one other forum I've seen which only has "Most recent threads"
which is completely useless - and it's shown in the usage there, which
dropped from over 500 active users as an e-list to less than 50 active
posters now (with a membership of 5000+).
3) Looks clunky - appears to be a single level of sub-forums. For
here, it probably doesn't make a lot of difference - one of the
beauties of Clayart in my opinion is that it's a single group, with
simultaneous discussions on many topics.
4) Highly graphical interface, with .NET components. For folks on
dial-up this may be a major problem - since they're using
intellisense, if you call in using Internet Explorer, it will likely
attempt to send self-installing components to the browser. (Possibly
trying to install the .NET client side, depending on how they wrote
the code).
5) No e-mail interface (yes, I'm repeating) - that will prevent digest
mode (another popular dial-up requirement).
It's cute, but it's not a substitute for an e-mail list - completely
different interface. There are also many other (and several free)
alternatives for forum software.
.... Bruce (off to glaze - third firing of the ^6 electric kiln
shortly. Experimenting is fun, but it was easier when I put the pots
on the magic shelf & they reappeared bisqued, then glazed them and put
them on magic shelf II and they appeared nice and shiny from the ^10
gas kiln.)
_________________________________________________________________________
_____
Jeanie Silver on wed 24 oct 07
Mel
Please keep the e-mail format, if at all possible. I find forums confusing,
slow, and irritating. If its not possible, I still trust you to make the
best descision for those of us who are easily confused...
Jeanie in Pennsylvania
Michael Wendt on wed 24 oct 07
I logged on to the link.
It appears the new format will save me
huge amounts of time since I will no
longer have to read emails and I won't
ever log onto a web based discussion
group.
For me , the current format of emails
is the only format I have even a chance
of using since I have a ton of work
to do most of the time.
Web site based groups even with my
DSL set up take far longer to load
than to scan email.
Thanks, it's been fun,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Russell Sheptak on wed 24 oct 07
I've looked at this, even went so far as to sign up for the free
demo. Its a non-starter. I had issues using the standard Macintosh
browser (Safari) and Firefox that made it impossible to simply create
a new user.
rus
On Oct 23, 2007, at 12:33 PM, mel jacobson wrote:
> here is a note from scott at acers.
> this is the software that he is considering.
>
> any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
> it sure looks good to me.
>
> mel, clayart, maurice and earl.
> Please allow me to introduce myself again. I am Scott Freshour, the
> web designer for Ceramic Arts Daily and ACerS. After much research
> and planning, taking into consideration our platform, our server
> capabilities and our budget, we have tentatively decided upon this
> piece of software for our new forum:
> http://www.instantasp.co.uk/ (the
> Instant Forum.NET product).
>
> We have not purchased it yet, as we would like to hear from you, the
> community that will be using it. It is feature rich and provides a
> clean and powerful forum that is both intuitive and flexible. It does
> not have to be blue and generic either, I have plenty of experience
> with modifying the html to make it pretty, within the limits of the
> base code. Please take a look, check out the free demo and let me
> know what you think. I have already contacted our developers in
> regard to this being our choice, pending a review by them as well.
>
>
>
> from: mel/minnetonka.mn.usa
> website: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>
> Clayart page link: http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change
> your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
Taylor Hendrix on wed 24 oct 07
Ewww Mayor Mel,
Many on the list may be horrified to know that I am a speed chess
junky. I will play anyone anywhere anyhow. When I joined a chess
league complete with league and team forum I was sooooo happy, for
about a week.
Forums are too slow and too cumbersome for me as well. There may be
some great things with this software and many people may post
prolifically. None of them will be me, I'm afraid.
I do not think this is a comfort issue either, but rather a sea-change
that will deep six (or full fathom five) the essence of this list. I
could be wrong but you'll have to convince me.
Taylor, in Rockport TX
On 10/23/07, mel jacobson wrote:
> here is a note from scott at acers.
> this is the software that he is considering.
>
> any of you that are software savvy, please take a look.
> it sure looks good to me.
Ivor on wed 24 oct 07
I've been on a slow dialup link to CLAYART for EIGHT YEARS.
Love my digest.
Forget it if there's no digest!!!!!!
Ivor
Ivor J Townshend
Macclesfield UK
om on wed 24 oct 07
As someone mentioned phpBB is opensource and free in both senses of
the word. Plus, it seems there is a plugin to do the listserv like
activities many desire:
http://mail2forum.com/wiki/Main_Page
From the introduction material:
--------------------------------------
Mail2Forum Features
This is an overview. A more complete list should be kept here:
Features. See also Security and Privacy.
* Integrates with phpBB: Allows posting to a phpBB forum via an
email, and users to receive email whenever a post is made in a forum.
* Incoming messages are intelligently routed to the appropriate
forum and topic thread based on a special email header, or if that's
not present, matching the message subject.
* Users may subscribe or unsubscribe to mailing lists via the
phpBB interface. Administrators can also add and remove users via a
phpBB administration panel.
* Allow or disallow incoming email from unregistered users.
* May be used as a stand-alone mailing list server/manager, or
with an existing mailing list server (like listserv or majordomo).
* Can convert to and from HTML email.
* Uses phpbb security features. Users can only subscribe to
forums they have permission to read.
* Open source code under GNU/GPL license.
Keith Arbogast on wed 24 oct 07
I am at the other end of the bell curve from John Hesselberth in
contributions to Clayart, so whether I stay or go is a matter of
indifference in this matter. But, for me the e-mail digest is a very
important feature. It makes it possible to scan what is going on
each day in Clayart to see what I can learn, and make a rare
contribution. There may be many Clayart subscribers who never come
out of the background, for various reasons, but who rely on the
digest for help and ideas.
Best wishes,
Keith Arbogast
Bloomington, Indiana
Bonnie Hellman on wed 24 oct 07
I feel as strongly as others who have written, that I like individual
emails, which can be sorted/organized on my computer and anything of
particular interest to me, can be easily saved.
I don't read any forums regularly. I've found that often I've learned useful
things by reading topics I didn't expect to be interesting to me.
I don't want to scroll through every line of every message in a digest
posting. Usually clayart is posted in several groups a day, and many days I
enjoy reading a few messages at a time.
I save some emails to answer later, usually privately, where it is easy to
hit reply, and change the "to" address.
Sometimes I forward certain emails to other people not on clayart.
Clearly we have people on clayart who like individual emails and those who
like the digest, and I would urge Acers to retail both options in any future
software changes.
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman
Ouray, Colorado 81427
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Arbogast"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: new clayart software ideas
>I am at the other end of the bell curve from John Hesselberth in
> contributions to Clayart, so whether I stay or go is a matter of
> indifference in this matter. But, for me the e-mail digest is a very
> important feature. It makes it possible to scan what is going on
> each day in Clayart to see what I can learn, and make a rare
> contribution. There may be many Clayart subscribers who never come
> out of the background, for various reasons, but who rely on the
> digest for help and ideas.
>
> Best wishes,
> Keith Arbogast
> Bloomington, Indiana
>
>
John Hesselberth on wed 24 oct 07
Hi Everyone,
I've been giving some careful thought to why I feel so strongly that =20
an email format is such an important part of Clayart.
We are a family. We are not a group of professionals who don't know =20
each other and are only interested in a quick answer to a specific =20
question. Well, I suppose some of us are, but those of us who have =20
been members for many years have gotten to 'know' hundreds of other =20
potters through Clayart. I've gotten to know many in person at NCECA =20
and various other gatherings and many, many more through their =20
participation in Clayart.
There is an aspect of email that I don't think could be duplicated in =20=
a forum--particularly one that divides up the messages by subject. We =20=
see every message--at least the headline--every day. So even if we =20
don't read all the messages--and who does--we tend to know that Kelly =20=
is a bundle of bruises, that Lili is trying to talk some sense into =20
Kelly's head, that Mel is off on another rant about craftsmanship, =20
that Vince is touring the world at the moment--or was that last =20
month--, that Ivor is trying to coax us to speculate on some esoteric =20=
aspect of technology that intrigues him at the moment, that Wayne is =20
in charge of boa color selection for NCECA and knows everything there =20=
is to know about how to smooth concrete floors, and that lots of us =20
still want to know more about digital photography or successful craft =20=
show strategies or whatever. Now where would all that go in a =20
sterile, by subject, forum environment. Up in smoke is where. Where =20
would we share a beer like we do now in the Ram's Head Pub?? We would =20=
not have a place or if we did it would be a separate room and would =20
not be integrated into our day to day living.
And yes that aspect of Clayart frustrates some members and they don't =20=
stay very long. They wanted a forum environment where they could get =20
a quick answer to a question and not have to stick around to get to =20
know us. So be it. I want the same thing sometimes when I need to =20
solve a problem, but am not really interested in becoming an expert, =20
e.g. how to do something with a specific computer program. But most =20
of us who have stayed with Clayart for many years are interested in =20
clay in a very deep and broad way. And we enjoy getting to know other =20=
Clayarters on a personal level. That doesn't happen in the forums I =20
have checked out. Maybe it does in some, but I continually hear that =20
Clayart is something special that most have never encountered before. =20=
I happen to believe that is largely due to the email format =20
reinforced by the NCECA Clayart room.
So I regret to say that if we go to a forum format I believe Clayart =20
as we know it will quickly die. That is not to say it will not =20
attract some or even many potters. But they will be a different =20
group. They won't be family.
Just my 2=A2 worth.
Regards,
John
John Hesselberth
www.frogpondpottery.com
"Man is a tool-using animal....without tools he is nothing, with =20
tools he is all" .... Thomas Carlyle
Earl Krueger on wed 24 oct 07
Clayart Friends and Family
I had a conversation with Scott at ACerS today.
Scott has been in the web business for quite
awhile and is an enthuastic latest-and-greatest
state-of-the-art kind of guy (which is good for us)
but he also understands our (the Customer) issues.
I proposed a different solution to Scott and he
is going to discuss it with his superiors and I
will discuss it with Mel. When we have a new
plan put together we will bring it forward to you
and I think you will be pleased.
In the meantime be assurred you were heard
quite clearly and I will do my best to be your
advocate.
Earl Krueger
Elmira, Oregon, usa
Fred Parker on wed 24 oct 07
For what it's worth, I agree with all who prefer the e-mail option over
the "forum" format. I have subscribed to many forums and never seem to
stick with any one for very long -- far too much bookkeeping involved for
my taste.
I subscribe to the Clayart HTML index which gives me a single email each
day full of subject lines and authors' names. It is very easy (and fast)
to scan the list and select what I want to read. Frankly, I am not
interested in the history of who replied to who (to whom?) etc. Also, sad
to say, there are some authors I choose to ignore for my own reasons and
others I will read no matter what the topic might be. Not sure a forum
would work for this.
I risk being labeled a crotchity old fart with this, but I'm pretty happy
with what we have now. It would be nice to be able to post images, but
I'm not sure that's worth giving up the ease of use the listserv
provides. Is there some compelling reason to change everything that I
(and others) might not be aware of?
Fred Parker
...who is pretty freakin' annoyed right now because of a full 2-cone
variation from top to bottom in my kiln, with at least three more glaze
loads to go.
Mert & Holly Kilpatrick on wed 24 oct 07
Response so far:
So far about 27 people have weighed in on the subject of losing our emails,
and changing the group to a forum, and I think it is 26 to 1 in favor of
retaining our emails.
I hope ACERS will weigh this.
If not, we can all go over to Yahoo Groups and start a new Clayart email
list over there .
Holly
Donald Burroughs on wed 24 oct 07
I like the Instantforum.net platform. I have used it or somehing like it
on a number of other forums like camcorders.info. cdfreaks.com also uses a
similar platform. I like it for it's ease of search on a specfic topic or
sub-topic.
Don Burroughs
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 24 oct 07
I also prefer the e-mail format to having to go to a forum or other
scheme...
Phil
l v
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mert & Holly Kilpatrick"
> Response so far:
>
> So far about 27 people have weighed in on the subject of losing our
> emails,
> and changing the group to a forum, and I think it is 26 to 1 in favor of
> retaining our emails.
>
> I hope ACERS will weigh this.
>
> If not, we can all go over to Yahoo Groups and start a new Clayart email
> list over there .
> Holly
Kathy Forer on thu 25 oct 07
On Oct 24, 2007, at 8:38 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
> I also prefer the e-mail format to having to go to a forum or other
> scheme...
We ought to look at this as a development project. What kinds of
things do people want?
A forum is only one way to supplement an email list. There are also
wikis, calendars, chat & twitter, facebook groups, personal profiles
& applications (social networking), blogs, newsfeed aggregators,
maps, voting, image posting, file uploading, databases, etc.
Good open software allows you to customize and add these things
module by module.
Check out some of the things at drupal.org and see what Tech Soup,
the online community for non-profits, has to say: www.techsoup.org/resources/index.cfm?
action=resource.view_summary&resourcelist_id=20> http://tinyurl.com/
2y3vhj
It makes no sense to get too complicated and do nothing. Work small,
work smart. Maybe start with a supplemental forum or portal but
consider what you might want sometime down the road and plan it into
a development process.
--
Kathy Forer
www.foreverink.com
Ric Swenson on thu 25 oct 07
e-mail works best for me here in China....
=20
Ric
=20
"...then fiery expedition be my wing, ..." Wm. Shakespeare, RICHARD III, Ac=
t IV Scene III Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher, Office of Internationa=
l Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic Institute, TaoYang Road, E=
astern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.JiangXi Province, P.R. of China. Postal code=
333001. Mobile/cellular phone :13767818872 +86-0798-8499600 (ofc.) +86-079=
8-8499012 (fax) < RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 00:45:31 -0400> From: kef@KFORER.COM> Subject: Re:=
new clayart software ideas> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > On Oct 24, 200=
7, at 8:38 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:> > > I also prefer the e-mail form=
at to having to go to a forum or other> > scheme...> > We ought to look at =
this as a development project. What kinds of> things do people want?> > A f=
orum is only one way to supplement an email list. There are also> wikis, ca=
lendars, chat & twitter, facebook groups, personal profiles> & applications=
(social networking), blogs, newsfeed aggregators,> maps, voting, image pos=
ting, file uploading, databases, etc.> > Good open software allows you to c=
ustomize and add these things> module by module.> Check out some of the thi=
ngs at drupal.org and see what Tech Soup,> the online community for non-pro=
fits, has to say: www.techsoup.org/resources/index.cfm?> action=
=3Dresource.view_summary&resourcelist_id=3D20> http://tinyurl.com/> 2y3vhj>=
> It makes no sense to get too complicated and do nothing. Work small,> wo=
rk smart. Maybe start with a supplemental forum or portal but> consider wha=
t you might want sometime down the road and plan it into> a development pro=
cess.> > --> Kathy Forer> www.foreverink.com> > ___________________________=
___________________________________________________> Clayart members may se=
nd postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org> > You may look at the archives fo=
r the list, post messages, or change your> subscription settings here: http=
://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who =
may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
_________________________________________________________________
Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=3DTXT_TAGHM&loc=3Dus=
Alisha Clarke on thu 25 oct 07
Just so everyone knows ... Drupal is a content management system, as are
Joomla and Plone (we geeks have a way of coming up with bizarre names). I
used Joomla to set up the PotteryBasics.com site, and am continuing to add
features to it. I don't think any of these systems include an email
listserve in the core system. You need to find modules to plug into the core
system for these additional features. Sometimes they have a simple forum
system, but as we've discussed here, a lot of ClayArters do not like the
forum approach. The best approach, as John Hesselberth mentioned is to get
the right software that includes both active email delivery with a digest
option, along with a forum that archives the messages and allows those who
prefer the passive forum approach to read and compose their emails on-line.
Before jumping into a particular content management system (CMS), I would
highly recommend that the right email system be identified first, rather
than deciding on a particular CMS and then hoping to find a good email
delivery system for it -- since email is obviously the core function of
ClayArt. If we do get an email system that will work in a CMS system, we can
later add the additional features as Kathy suggests.
For PotteryBasics, the email distribution and forum are housed with Yahoo
Groups, since it offers all that functionality of both the email and the
forum. Some of the additional features like photo albums, links, calendar
and simple databases are also available on Yahoo Groups. However, I've been
setting up PotteryBasics.com as a companion site to host some more powerful
versions of these and other features. If I were starting fresh I would
probably look to see if there was an email listserve/forum option in the CMS
with the power of Yahoo Groups so it could all be in one place, but our
archives are already in Yahoo.
By the way, the archives are another issue to take into account. It would be
a shame to not be able to bring across all the existing archives. That would
mean that anyone searching for topics would have to search in two separate
locations -- the old archives and the new ones. Part of the decision for
this transition should be to ensure that we can transfer the old archives
into the new system. That can be a major task, even assuming it's possible.
We also need to look at the disaster recovery features of anything we use.
What happens if the hard drive that hosts ClayArt crashes? Or even more
likely ... what happens if an operator error causes data to be deleted? Any
new system should include a disaster recovery plan.
Sorry for all the technical details, but this is my area of expertise. I'm
an Oracle Database Administrator for a large university.
Alisha
On 10/25/07, Kathy Forer wrote:
>
> On Oct 24, 2007, at 8:38 PM, pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>
> > I also prefer the e-mail format to having to go to a forum or other
> > scheme...
>
> We ought to look at this as a development project. What kinds of
> things do people want?
>
> A forum is only one way to supplement an email list. There are also
> wikis, calendars, chat & twitter, facebook groups, personal profiles
> & applications (social networking), blogs, newsfeed aggregators,
> maps, voting, image posting, file uploading, databases, etc.
>
> Good open software allows you to customize and add these things
> module by module.
> Check out some of the things at drupal.org and see what Tech Soup,
> the online community for non-profits, has to say: > www.techsoup.org/resources/index.cfm?
> action=resource.view_summary&resourcelist_id=20> http://tinyurl.com/
> 2y3vhj
>
> It makes no sense to get too complicated and do nothing. Work small,
> work smart. Maybe start with a supplemental forum or portal but
> consider what you might want sometime down the road and plan it into
> a development process.
>
> --
> Kathy Forer
> www.foreverink.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alisha Clarke
www.alishaclarke.com
Leigh Whitaker on thu 25 oct 07
I'm going to weigh in on the other side. I'm not a big poster, so my
opinion means nothing to the list, but I'm going to post it anyway. LOL! I hate
the listserve format. I like forums a lot. I like being able to search with
a really good search function. I like when posts on specific topics are
organized into subforums. I like being able to post pictures. I like that all
posts on a thread are grouped together under one heading and not spread out
over days of email, some of which I have probably already deleted before I
realized the thread was interesting. I like that I don't have to wait weeks for
threads to be archived.
Anyway, like I said, my opinion shouldn't count here really since I'm just a
newbie who hardly ever posts, but there it is.
Leigh
************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Mayssan Shora Farra on thu 25 oct 07
Hello All:
I have to chime in here although I am not tech savvy at all.
I read clayart exculsively from the archivesD doing that you would think I
won't mind a forum format.
But I know I won't like it; Here in the archives I sort the posts by date
so it can be real time, I reply to messages with a choice either to the
original sender or to the group.
As for pictures, too many pictures on too many websites, but clayart is
real conversation. and that is what keeps us all coming back.
Please keep it with all it's current features.
Thanks
Mayssan; In finally raininy Charleston West virginia, wishing we could
send some of the rain Southern California way.
Carole Fox on thu 25 oct 07
On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 06:46:53 -0400, Alisha Clarke
wrote:
...
>Before jumping into a particular content management system (CMS), I would
>highly recommend that the right email system be identified first, rather
>than deciding on a particular CMS and then hoping to find a good email
>delivery system for it --
...
To take Alisha's point a bit further, I would hope that ACERs would have
defined the user requirements first, then selected a toolset that supports
those requirements. Perhaps they have done this and we just don't know
it, but it sounds to me like they have selected a toolset first (albeit
tentatively) and are now trying to fit the requirements to the toolset.
That's the reverse of how the process needs to work. Or perhaps they have
other higher priority projects that will already make use of the selected
tool and they are trying to leverage it for Clayart.
As a former information systems director, I know that small projects often
don't get the financial backing and other resources to enable the complete
flow of process from requirements definition through selection and
implementation. I hope ACERs will get the requirements well-defined before
they commit to a specific tool for implementation, as I personally have
found the current Clayart implementation to be extremely helpful,
informative, and easy to use. I would like any replacement to be at least
as good.
Carole Fox
Dayton,OH
Taylor Hendrix on thu 25 oct 07
Phil counts as two people.
Rock on Phil. I just read a section in a blacksmithing book on
riveting. Wicked cool.
On 10/24/07, pdp1@earthlink.net wrote:
> I also prefer the e-mail format to having to go to a forum or other
> scheme...
>
>
> Phil
> l v
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mert & Holly Kilpatrick"
>
>
> > Response so far:
> >
> > So far about 27 people have weighed in on the subject of losing our
> > emails,
claystevslat on fri 26 oct 07
Carole makes a very good point -- ClayArt is different things to
different users. It can be a place to make a request, to theorize
about a scientific or technical issue, it is a collection of ideas to
search through, and it is a forum for debate on various issues
involving art, the motivation for creating, and the ethical
need for bat pins.
And it is various other things I don't know about, because it is
used by some people I don't know about -- possibly that no one
who posts here know about. The difference between the number of
active posters and total readers is huge. The difference -- the
approximate number of lurkers and occasional readers -- are people
whose needs we cannot identify because they don't state them.
What we do know about these people is that the existing format --
a mailing list, with your choice of digest, index, individual
messages, or check-in-to-read-archive-only is hugely successful.
Others have made this point before, but the range of options for
users is likely a part of ClayArt's success. If we *add* to this a
forum setup for searching messages, so much the better. If we have
to give up any of our existing flexibility, it might be much the
worse.
Again, JM2C -- Steve S
--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Carole Fox wrote:
> To take Alisha's point a bit further, I would hope that ACERs would
have
> defined the user requirements first, then selected a toolset that
supports
> those requirements. Perhaps they have done this and we just don't
know
> it,
Eleanora Eden on thu 1 nov 07
Hi All,
I have been very relieved to see that many other clayarters feel the same wa=
y
about the forum format as I do. It is a total non-starter for me. But I wo=
uld
have been hard pressed to detail why in as thorough a way as JH has done
for us here.
I know I wouldn't manage to find my way in a forum. I don't post all that m=
uch
and I am always months behind in reading my inbox, but I treasure it all.
We are a family. And I do hope very fervently we will keep this very fluid,
non-hierarchical format.
Eleanora
>Hi Everyone,
>
>I've been giving some careful thought to why I feel so strongly that an=
email format is such an important part of Clayart.
>
>We are a family. We are not a group of professionals who don't know each=
other and are only interested in a quick answer to a specific question.=
Well, I suppose some of us are, but those of us who have been members for=
many years have gotten to 'know' hundreds of other potters through Clayart.=
I've gotten to know many in person at NCECA and various other gatherings=
and many, many more through their participation in Clayart.
>
>There is an aspect of email that I don't think could be duplicated in a for=
um--particularly one that divides up the messages by subject. We see every=
message--at least the headline--every day. So even if we don't read all the=
messages--and who does--we tend to know that Kelly is a bundle of bruises,=
that Lili is trying to talk some sense into Kelly's head, that Mel is off=
on another rant about craftsmanship, that Vince is touring the world at the=
moment--or was that last month--, that Ivor is trying to coax us to=
speculate on some esoteric aspect of technology that intrigues him at the=
moment, that Wayne is in charge of boa color selection for NCECA and knows=
everything there is to know about how to smooth concrete floors, and that=
lots of us still want to know more about digital photography or successful=
craft show strategies or whatever. Now where would all that go in a=
sterile, by subject, forum environment. Up in smoke is where. Where would=
we share a beer like we do now in the Ram's Head Pub?? We would not have a=
place or if we did it would be a separate room and would not be integrated=
into our day to day living.
>
>And yes that aspect of Clayart frustrates some members and they don't stay=
very long. They wanted a forum environment where they could get a quick=
answer to a question and not have to stick around to get to know us. So be=
it. I want the same thing sometimes when I need to solve a problem, but am=
not really interested in becoming an expert, e.g. how to do something with=
a specific computer program. But most of us who have stayed with Clayart=
for many years are interested in clay in a very deep and broad way. And we=
enjoy getting to know other Clayarters on a personal level. That doesn't=
happen in the forums I have checked out. Maybe it does in some, but I=
continually hear that Clayart is something special that most have never=
encountered before. I happen to believe that is largely due to the email=
format reinforced by the NCECA Clayart room.
>
>So I regret to say that if we go to a forum format I believe Clayart as we=
know it will quickly die. That is not to say it will not attract some or=
even many potters. But they will be a different group. They won't be family=
=2E
>
>Just my 2=A2 worth.
>
>Regards,
>
>John
>
>
>
>John Hesselberth
>www.frogpondpottery.com
--
Bellows Falls Vermont
www.eleanoraeden.com
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