Patti M. Fox on fri 7 nov 97
Hi All..
Thanks for all the great mail! I'm usually a "lurker", soaking up as
much know-how as I can. Now I need a little help writing a business
plan for the studio I've got under development at this time.
I'm trying to do an income projection for the next few years, based on
various sales methods. One market avenue is craft/art shows. I've been
to only 2 so far in my clay-career, and have absolutely NO IDEA
WHAT-SO-EVER what a person could typically include in a budget for
income from this marketing method.
If anyone is willing to share their figures with me it would be much
appreciated, and definately held confidential. My product includes some
functional ware, some mythical sculptures, some functional sculptures.
Any advise for the best craft/art shows to hit in the midwest? (I'm in
NW Wisconsin).
Thanks-- direct responses would be appropriate.. pmfox@spacestar.net
freewill on sat 8 nov 97
On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Patti M. Fox wrote:
> I'm trying to do an income projection for the next few years, based on
> various sales methods. One market avenue is craft/art shows. I've been
> to only 2 so far in my clay-career, and have absolutely NO IDEA
> WHAT-SO-EVER what a person could typically include in a budget for
> income from this marketing method.
>
> Thanks-- direct responses would be appropriate.. pmfox@spacestar.net
Yo....wait a minute. Please don't make this a private conversation... lots
of us are interested!!! Finding a way to make our Clayart pay for
itself is very relevant to the concerns of this group!
Patti, if you've showed at 2 art/craft fairs then you have, well, two more
sets of income figures than many of us do. Can't you extrapolate from
that, at last to come up with a "reasonable" guess? Or do you mean you've
*attended* two fairs, not showed at them? I've heard a rule-of-thumb being
that you should plan on taking about 300 items to a fair, and plan on
selling about a third of them. Of course, when preparing for the next
fair, you carry over the 200 items that didn't sell. Your prices can be
set at about the average for other exhibitors at a given fair, and you can
always ask the organizers about the show/booth fees.
I have a question, brought to mind by the discussion of the ACC wholesale
shows - how do you decide if wholesale is for you? Does it make more
money? Do you have to be able to stand making the same exact product (for
years and years and years)? Is it better to do a little of both, a
standard line for wholesale and one-off's for retail/galleries? Does
wholesale marketing necessitate hiring other people to handle the volume
of work, either in sales or production?
thanks thanks!
-jenni
in Omaha, where I have about two weeks to throw stuff to sell before
Christmas. Boy, this really makes for some seasonal pressure, doesn't it?
Patti M. Fox on sun 9 nov 97
I asked for some income-from-shows information, and:
freewill wrote:
> Yo....wait a minute. Please don't make this a private conversation... lots
> of us are interested!!! Finding a way to make our Clayart pay for
> itself is very relevant to the concerns of this group!
>
> Patti, if you've showed at 2 art/craft fairs then you have, well, two more
> sets of income figures than many of us do. Can't you extrapolate from
> that, at last to come up with a "reasonable" guess? Or do you mean you've
> *attended* two fairs, not showed at them? I've heard a rule-of-thumb being
> that you should plan on taking about 300 items to a fair, and plan on
> selling about a third of them. Of course, when preparing for the next
> fair, you carry over the 200 items that didn't sell. Your prices can be
> set at about the average for other exhibitors at a given fair, and you can
> always ask the organizers about the show/booth fees.
>
> I have a question, brought to mind by the discussion of the ACC wholesale
> shows - how do you decide if wholesale is for you? Does it make more
> money? Do you have to be able to stand making the same exact product (for
> years and years and years)? Is it better to do a little of both, a
> standard line for wholesale and one-off's for retail/galleries? Does
> wholesale marketing necessitate hiring other people to handle the volume
> of work, either in sales or production?
>
> thanks thanks!
>
> -jenni
So, as for those 2 shows I went to--
First one.. "Art in the Park" on Father's Day in Rice Lake, WI.
I took along everything off my shelves that I considered presentable.
These shelve are getting pretty full, 'cause I haven't used THE HAMMER
on rejects yet (even though I really need to). I've been a student of
CLAYART for 2-3 years now, and my work has progressed. SO.. I gave it
a shot. Entrance fee-- $30. I took my kick wheel along, and that was
a VERY GOOD MOVE. I was usually surrounded by people watching me
throw. I'm not especially proficient at throwing, but I'm a theatrical
type show-off so this marketing approach worked well. My total sales
were $140, and in addition to that I traded a bowl that I considered
flawed to a metalsmith a few boothes down for a beautiful pair of
ear-rings. He thought I was insulting myself my marking the bowl at
$6... I couldn't justify higher because it was (in my opinion)
seriously flawed.
Second show was even cheaper.. "Town and Country Days" Labor Day
Weekend in Shell Lake. $10 per day. I had one sculptural piece I'd just
finished (of which I was/am very proud) which sold for $115. A few
other pieces made the net $130. I again took my wheel, drew less of a
crowd but completed a bunch of work that I wouldn't have had time to do
otherwise.
I recently received the Minnesota Arts Director which lists entrance
fees, etc., and was stunned by the going rates for other shows. That
realization is what prompted my query to CLAYART..
Has anyone else taken their work/wheel with them to shows? This seems
like such an obvious marketing tool, but I haven't been able to attend
(go see) many art/craft shows so I don't know if it's welcome or not.
Still looking to hear more from others willing to share $$ figures.
Thanks-- Patti
Don Jones on sun 9 nov 97
>I have a question, brought to mind by the discussion of the ACC wholesale
>shows - how do you decide if wholesale is for you? Does it make more
>money? Do you have to be able to stand making the same exact product (for
>years and years and years)? Is it better to do a little of both, a
>standard line for wholesale and one-off's for retail/galleries? Does
>wholesale marketing necessitate hiring other people to handle the volume
>of work, either in sales or production?
>
>thanks thanks!
>
>-jenni
>in Omaha, where I have about two weeks to throw stuff to sell before
>Christmas. Boy, this really makes for some seasonal pressure, doesn't it?
Jenni,
I realized when I started wholesale that I needed income immediately and
wholesale provides this. The alternative is local craft fairs and
workshop sales that are not as reliable. I went for 3 years before I
decided to add an assistant to helpme. You don't have to make the exact
product year after year. You can change them each year. Also you can do
both local retail and wholesale. Doing an ACC show is very exciting and
rewarding and can be either wholesale or retail or both.
===================
Don Jones
claysky@highfiber.com
:-) implied in all messages and replies
http://highfiber.com/~claysky
Robert Compton on mon 10 nov 97
orginal--
> I have a question, brought to mind by the discussion of the ACC wholesale
> shows - how do you decide if wholesale is for you? Does it make more
> money? Do you have to be able to stand making the same exact product (for
> years and years and years)? Is it better to do a little of both, a
> standard line for wholesale and one-off's for retail/galleries? Does
> wholesale marketing necessitate hiring other people to handle the volume
> of work, either in sales or production?
> Jenny,
Your questions are good but the answers really are dependent on
the individual. I did the ACC shows from 1972 thru 1987 and yes, you can
take alot of orders a a show like that, whether you make money are not is
dependent on how well you price your work. It was allways interesting to
see a "new exibitor" at a ACC show with under priced work. They took orders
left and right, professional buyers really know undervalued work when it is
presented, and the potter usualy doesn't fill the orders once they realize
they are losing money on every pot they sell.
It helps to have a reproducable line for wholesaling, and that can
be a drag if your not interested in doing production work. We had a line of
stoneware Aquariums and Fountains that were 99% wholesaled, and that grew
into a situation where we had three employees. I found that I did not care
for running a business like that and have gone back to making non
production vessels that are mostly retailed out of our shop, but the
biggest problem you may find with wholesaling could be the
mountains of paperwork and accounts recievable.
I think it is very important to diversify your methods of income
from your pot sales, expecially if it is your soles means of support.
Today we do about 60% of our sales directly from our showroom, 20% is
wholesale and another 20% in commissions. In 1985 we were 90% wholesale and
when the mini recession of 89 hit we felt the bump bigtime from our
wholesale accounts. We were saved only because we were in so many shops (
over 100) so we could weather the storm, but it made me very sensitive to
how vurnable we are to the market.
There is no one way, I have found the best thing I can do as a
potter is to be flexible.
Robert Compton Phone: 802-453-3778
3600 Rt 116 http://homepages.together.net/~rcompton
Bristol, Vermont 05443 rcompton@together.net
Ron or Sue Corl on mon 10 nov 97
Patti M. Fox wrote:
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> I asked for some income-from-shows information, and:
Patti,
I too am just getting very serious about potting for a living. I think I
have one advantage that you do not share. I had been an antique dealer,
doing shows for a living for for 2 years. I did about 55 shows A YEAR!
Yes, sometimes 3 in one weekend. It was gruelling but I wouldn't trade
it for the world, (well, maybe a clean, enviromentally safe world).
Anyway, I don't think that Art fairs are any different. I have attended
Art shows as a participant and observer and talked to other potters. My
assumptions were correct. There are no guarantees but you can limit the
shows that you do by attending them and talking to other artists about
their thoughts on that show and past years shows. Also, look in the ART
FAIR SOURCE BOOK for show ratings.
I don't know if you want to go full time but if you do you will have to
travel. No matter where you live there will not be enough shows in your
area to maintain sales. I traveled all over the east coast. It would
have been great to just do shows in Ohio where I lived but it wasn't so.
Before you can make projections you need to assess your own situation.
How much work can you produce? Is it sellable? Should you present your
'rejects' as saleable items? Is your booth display a card table and a
milk crate or is it high tech with lighting? How will you get to a show?
Is your equipment up to date? The list is endless.
I could go on and on with the research I have done on this and the first
hand experiences. I too wanted someone to give me what they know so I
didn't make the same mistakes that they did. Trust me, antique people
our not as giving as potters. I started small just like you with 4 or 5
flea market type shows: $10-$50 for a one or two day show. I was selling
from $50 to $200 a show and thougt I had gone to heaven. Finally I
jumped in and booked my first real antique show. $200 for 2 days! ! !
I thought I went to Hell! I had sold about $400 at the end of that show
and then the last minute someone came in and purchased a $1200 pie safe.
I sold $1600 at that FIRST show and was sorely admitted back to heaven!
Show Expense- $200
Food----------$ 25
Gas-----------$ 10 This show was in my backyard almost
Lodging-------$ 0 I drove back home
COGS--------- $900 Cost of Goods Sold or COGS
Total $1130 This is what it cost me to do this show!
Sales $1600
Total Profit $ 470 WEEEHAAA
Hopefully you can see why it is so hard to project before you have
experience. If I wouldn't have sold that pie safe at the last minute, I
would have lost money. What if you don't sell that $400 pot at the last
minute? Being in business for yourself is a HUGE challenge and risk.
BUT BY ALL MEANS DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!
Just know what you are in for and look at what you have to offer
realistically. Would you want to buy your pots? If not why? Do you have
the time, cash, and patience to sit for a weekend dealing with God only
knows what kind of people and pay $200 dollars or more to do it? It's
not unusual to pay $400-$800 for a good show AND submit slides to be
ACCEPTED to have that opportunity!
You can write off Any expense even resembling something to do with your
business. Bus. cards, displays, travel, motels. . . But those expenses
don't 'pay the bills'.
I just came back from a Tom Radca (cover of CM) workshop. I ask him the
very same question about throwing at shows. I'll paraphrase his
response. 'You end up with a lot of amazed, interested people standing
around you but it won't increase sales and it is a lot of work to drag
everything you need with you. I don't do it anymore.' Most bigger shows
are inside and you only have a 10x10 space anyway.
I would highly recomend doing some more research before you jump, but do
jump. A pretty good book is out called 'The Business of Being an Artist'
It's about being a painter but you can apply most everything. Get a
business plan or a start-up small business book. Business principles
apply to ALL business. If more artists realized that, we would have less
Starving artists. Even the successfull Avante' Guard, that think
business ruins art, have someone 'running' there marketing or a college
paying for their opportunity to be anti business.
If I have painted a scary picture I didn't mean to. I could never work
for someone else after going into business for myself but the hours our
longer and harder. Don't take a risk and jump blindly into a show hoping
that you will be discovered by the adoring masses. Take a calculated
risk by doing some research first. You may or may not be ready to JUMP.
You can only project if you know what you are projecting. Obviously you
already are aware of that so you are half way there.
thanks for listening to me ramble,
Ron
Big Baby Head Studio
Clayphil on mon 10 nov 97
In my three years experience selling pottery at art fairs, I have learned that
alot of factors outside of one's control effect what gets sold at art fairs.
Weather, economy, other exhibitor's work, what "quality" the shows are, what
football/sports events are going on in the same weekend; just to mention a
few. And I think that it depends alot on how you view your work and what your
expectations are for selling your work. If your agenda is to show your work
and cover expenses, you will approach the vast topic of selling at artfairs
in one way. If art fairs are a critical component of your business income,
you will view them in a real different way.
I do about 12 art fairs a year. I try each year to get into a better quality
of show, try to improve the quality of my work, I see art fairs as part of
how I make a living for the past three years. In 95, I averaged about $700
per fair. In 96, about $1000 per fair, In 97, with one to go, I'll
average about $1500. Sound like alot?? Its not really very much once
expenses, income tax and everthing is figured. But, I'm learning, I'm
improving, I have a clear idea of how to make art fairs a profit making part,
and part is a key phrase, of my pottery making business. I have also learned
that doing art fairs, over the long haul, is real hard work, don't let
anybody tell you different! Phil
Clayphil on tue 11 nov 97
Just to add a bit, I think Ron has some really sound advise. In my,
experience, there are many difficult parts to getting started, but perhaps the
most difficult is pricing work. I notice alot of folks underpricing there
work; less frequently, I see overpricing. To make a fair profit from your
handmade pottery, one needs to account for all that goes into it, labor,
material, overhead, the whole thing. It just makes me shiver when I see
someone giving away their pots, thinking that they are making some money but
really losing money and not even realizing it.
Phil
KarateHiro on thu 20 nov 97
>
>I'm trying to do an income projection for the next few years, based on
>various sales methods. One market avenue is craft/art shows. I've been
>to only 2 so far in my clay-career, and have absolutely NO IDEA
>WHAT-SO-EVER what a person could typically include in a budget for
>income from this marketing method.
>
>If anyone is willing to share their figures with me it would be much
>appreciated, and definately
Too premature. Try at least a dozen before you do anything. Just two makes me
laugh. Even if you try twenty. you will find it difficult to project. I would
not dream of sharing my experience with you, even if I know a lot about the
stuff. What good does it do?
Wendy Rosen on thu 20 nov 97
To all,
The Rosen Group offers free of charge a form for calculating profit or loss
at a craft market or fair. The form is called:
"ARE YOU MAKING MONEY?"
We'll be glad to fax it to anyone upon request. Email us with your fax number.
Thanks!
*******************************************
Wendy Rosen
The Rosen Group
Niche & AmericanStyle Magazines
http://americanstyle.com
3000 Chestnut Ave #304 Baltimore, MD 21211
Voice: 410/889-3093 Fax: 410/243-7089
*******************************************
Diane S. Zubrick on fri 21 nov 97
I WILL share my experience with you and I would like to say that there
are many of us doing art shows that are quite successful at what we do.
Yes, it will certainly take several years before you can figure out a
budget. I do sell quite consistently year to year, but there are lots of
expenses. Many of us use the unwritten rule that the booth fee should be
10% of the sales. For example, if you pay $150 to be in a show, you
should make $1500, $200 booth fee, $2000 sales. Weather, economy, booth
location and so many other factors can affect your profit.
As you gain more experience, you will want to be in the better shows that
will bring you more income. These better shows will require classy
display as well as quality artwork and decent slides. The booth fee will
be more expensive. Jurying can be frustrating!
I believe that to be successful in pottery, you need to listen to your
customers as well as come up with something different. There are so many
potters competing in the shows that you need to have your own look,
something that stands out from the rest.
This time of year experienced artists can make several thousand at each
show. Some potters have helpers to keep the inventory up. I do it all
myself, so I can only make so much. It takes discipline and drive to keep
going show after show. There are always family obligations. There are
several good books on craft marketing and the magazine "Sunshine Artist"
is a good resource. Good luck to you and I hope to see you down the road!
Diane Schwob Zubrick
Applecreek Pottery
Centerville, Ohio
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