Lee Love on sat 3 nov 07
On 11/3/07, tony clennell wrote:
> Don't push yourself to like the gnar gnar Tom. I'm just so pleased that
> you're willing to give it a look before passing judgement. You have your own
> taste and there is room in Anytown for anyone. I got word from home today
> that there are Crock a Doodle pottery painting franchises being sold near
> us.
I like pots that get used. Ones that you enjoy touching and
not just looking at. That's my only criteria.
We are lucky our medium is so diverse. Everybody can find
something they like.
I did some tests with out of the ground Yellowbanks clay,
along with other clays that mostly had a mixture of Canuckian Feldspar
in it. I wouldn't call it gnar garn, because the speckles are mostly
white.
It looks like the Yellow Banks has coal in it and the
tests had a few popouts in the bisque, that would probably heal over
in the right wood fired kiln. I think it needs to be turned into a
slip and screened.
Fired overnight in St. Cloud with my friend Dave Glenn.
Just like old times: Our studios were next to each other back when
Northern Clay Center was in St. Paul and just starting about 17 years
ago.
--
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by
education." -- Bertrand Russell
tony clennell on sat 3 nov 07
Tom H in Minnesota wrote:
I have to push myself a bit to like gnarly stuff.
Tom: it is true that most people don't like to be challenged. We have some
here in our China group that go to KFC and Wal Mart daily so they don't
have to try the Chinese food. They decided before they came that they
wouldn't like it so they only eat the white rice and some deep fried meat
and bread rolls.
For a long time Tom I made pots that I called- "the first pottery that
people buy" it is easy to understand, it's pretty, it's handmade and then I
moved to making the pots that people might consider buying next- I lost most
of the customers that still only want KFC but many of the more curious have
moved along with me. Remember St. Williams Str in San Antone????? I don't
need everyone in America to buy my work just a few that live on St. Williams
Str in San Anytown, USA.
You've seen our house. It is full of interesting objects and I'm scratching
my head to think of anything pretty in the house. Maybe the flowers Sheila
always has in the house but then I don't even think she picks pretty ones
but she does pick beautiful ones. There is a big difference between pretty
and beautiful. You also must keep in mind that no decoration a very strong
form of decoration. The form being the strength!
Don't push yourself to like the gnar gnar Tom. I'm just so pleased that
you're willing to give it a look before passing judgement. You have your own
taste and there is room in Anytown for anyone. I got word from home today
that there are Crock a Doodle pottery painting franchises being sold near
us.
I doubt any of their customers will be mine but then it has to start
somewhere and one never knows when some odd ball will find themselves Crock
a doodling over to Sour Cherry and having a look a doodle do.
Best ole man!
Tom
P.S If it's Ok with you I'll pass this along to Clayart. See if we can get a
few others to venture over from Crock a Doodle. This is good dialogue and it
will be enjoyed on the list.
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
tony clennell on sun 4 nov 07
Lee: Because a pot doesn't get used doesn't mean it can't be touched or
fondled. A question I like to ask is at what price point does a pot cease to
be used. We have some pots at home that we enjoy looking at and holding
that maybe once were created for use but are no longer in use in our house
for fear of breaking them. A $10,000 Yi dynasty rice bowl for example! The
pots i am making are very much about use-occasional use not everyday use.
The ruff buckets and baskets are for flowers. My standard line is there is
more money to be made in the livingroom than the kitchen.
I think you're missing alot of great pots being made with your rather narrow
criteria. You ought to consider a Bruce Cochrane or a Mark Pharis pot for
your collection- I think you could learn alot about where clay is at in
2008.
What I'm talking to Tom about is not being "mainstream". Mainstream is a
comfortable place to live where nothing out of the ordinary is presented
kinda like Top 50 radio. I happen to think some of the best pots ever made
are being made now in 2008. the best potters of 2008 would be in good
company with the best potters of the Song,Ming or whatever dynasty. Good
potters recognize good potters work-functional or conceptual.
Best,
Tony
On 11/3/07, Lee Love wrote:
>
> On 11/3/07, tony clennell wrote:
>
> > Don't push yourself to like the gnar gnar Tom. I'm just so pleased that
> > you're willing to give it a look before passing judgement. You have your
> own
> > taste and there is room in Anytown for anyone. I got word from home
> today
> > that there are Crock a Doodle pottery painting franchises being sold
> near
> > us.
>
> I like pots that get used. Ones that you enjoy touching and
> not just looking at. That's my only criteria.
>
> We are lucky our medium is so diverse. Everybody can find
> something they like.
>
> I did some tests with out of the ground Yellowbanks clay,
> along with other clays that mostly had a mixture of Canuckian Feldspar
> in it. I wouldn't call it gnar garn, because the speckles are mostly
> white.
>
> It looks like the Yellow Banks has coal in it and the
> tests had a few popouts in the bisque, that would probably heal over
> in the right wood fired kiln. I think it needs to be turned into a
> slip and screened.
>
> Fired overnight in St. Cloud with my friend Dave Glenn.
> Just like old times: Our studios were next to each other back when
> Northern Clay Center was in St. Paul and just starting about 17 years
> ago.
>
>
> --
> Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
>
> "Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by
> education." -- Bertrand Russell
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
--
http://sourcherrypottery.com
http://smokieclennell.blogspot.com
Lee Love on sun 4 nov 07
On 11/4/07, tony clennell wrote:
> be used. We have some pots at home that we enjoy looking at and holding
> that maybe once were created for use but are no longer in use in our house
> for fear of breaking them. A $10,000 Yi dynasty rice bowl for example!
Tony, I use all pots in my house. You are missing a lot of
great use by your narrow definition! ;^) During my apprenticeship,
on an every day basis, I handed $30,000.00 pots. On a less frequent
basis, I handed Korean Yi and Sung pots worth, I am guessing, at least
half way to a million dollars. The most impressive days of my
apprenticeship were the days when we unpacked my teacher's collection,
of mostly Yi and Sung pots, so he could pick some to be photographed.
I touched incredible pots, ones I had only seeing in books or at
museums before that time.
So, I got over being phobic about using expensive pots.
But I did learn how to take care of them. I buy pots to use and
study and not for investment. Like the pots that fill Hamada's
museum.
>The
> pots i am making are very much about use-occasional use not everyday use.
Dusted, not washed in the sink? That's fine. The important
aspect to my making, is that the object actually be good for its use.
No 50lb. tea pots that only Schwarzenegger can lift! haha! I
like the philosophy of making two lines: one for every day and than
the other line for the gallery. I actually have three. Because I
believe ritual use is important, my third line is related to tea and
the zen altar and soon urns.
> What I'm talking to Tom about is not being "mainstream". Mainstream is a
> comfortable place to live where nothing out of the ordinary is presented
> kinda like Top 50 radio.
I understand: Not just mugs and soup bowls. Not that
you have to give those up to make other stuff. But, if you look at
what MFAs do to people, it often forces their work to be over
intellectualized and it makes folks think too seriously about
themselves.
> I happen to think some of the best pots ever made
> are being made now in 2008. the best potters of 2008 would be in good
> company with the best potters of the Song,Ming or whatever dynasty.
I strongly disagree and I live in places where some of the best
pots are currently being made.
But something that has helped be not be so critical about
contemporary work that pales in comparison to the best work of the
past, is that there is no way our little slice of time can compete
with the massive numbers of work that has been done in all the past.
Like those Ido tea bowls. We look at those and think those potters
must have been geniuses. Actually, maybe 10,000 rice bowls or more
were made to arrive at one Ido tea bowl. We have the tea masters to
thank for doing research and selection, along with countless
collectors and museum curators.
A mark of our time is a lack of humility about our time.
I don't think our work can be its best unless we have a realistic
perspective on how it fits into the grander scheme of things.
--
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by
education." -- Bertrand Russell
Tom at Hutchtel.net on sun 4 nov 07
For reference to ClayArt, This is a snip from a note I sent to Tony that
started his reply that is now Anytown, USA. He was kind enough to take time
away from an impossibly busy schedule to talk. I worry that too much
computer will shorten the already short time left.
"So you're making me (Tom) completely reorient my thinking. I guess that's
not
all bad! As I spend some time with your new work, I start to maybe
understand it, not sure I'm to liking it yet...but there's hope. At first I
was seeing more of a transition from what you've always done (a month ago).
Now, I'm seeing a whole new body of work.
And since I'm doing some of the same thing here, I see what's
happening....trust the
process. I see clips, you see the continuum. OK, I think I'm liking
it....not that that matters.
So, how are you going to expand the studio? Maybe the back porch?
Ok, I really like the 3 big urn type pieces. More texturing, there seems to
be a unifying structure, ...how are these going to be fired? Shigaraki
style or some glaze?
We need to have some discussion about the beard. It makes you look younger
and more like a potter. Bald, Beard, Potter. I get it!"
Any way, Tony, going back to your blog comment that Bruce C says the best
pots come with references, what are you using as reference in these pots?
I think I see a couple of things, but your comments would certainly be more
instructive. Where are they coming from?
For me, it is really interesting to go to your website (www.sourcherry.com)
and look at the early pots in this journey that Sheila posted....and then
look at what you're now doing, and then go back to our gallery and look at
the few pieces that are left from 9 months ago. You can tell they're the
same potter, but way opened up.
I think I can see that not having the sales and production pressure has
allowed a lot of change.
I may be a bit in Lee's camp...I like touching pots, but I would guess that
your new work needs touching, too...but maybe not fondling. We once had the
chance to handle some Jamon pots at the Smithsonian...they are not fondlers
either.
I'm not sure pots have to be "for" something. Lately, as I've been putting
in some rim bending and surface decoration, I'm getting more annoyed at the
question "what's that for?" No wonder these people like it down at wally
mart.
I started this journey some 15 years ago saying to myself I just want to be
a good potter....whatever that is...I think I meant have the skills. Now,
I'm finding that I'm needing the art....otherwise I might as well go get a
line job at the local 3M plant making Mels Rid-A-Tick Tick-stickers. No
fun.
But I do find that at shows I find precious few pots with good form. Too
much emphasis on glaze and alteration. Heck, go back in the archives, look
at how many threads we've had on form....almost none in the 16 years I've
been on board it's all glaze and methods.
(PS don't go by our website for what I think good form is....most of those
pots are 4-5 years old.)
I've driveled on way to long.
Tom Wirt
Hutchinson, MN
twirt@hutchtel.net
www.claycoyote.com
Gay Judson on sun 4 nov 07
Tom, I can't tell if you were pleased or not that Tony snipped your email
to him and submitted it to the group--But I am very pleased. Your thoughts
on the subject are very stimulating. I suspect many of us 'Clayarters' are
in the same boat you describe: starting out thinking this clay work is all
about skills and then finding that not totally satisfying, now wanting to be
involved in the 'art' of it, too. Maybe that is why we are so fond of
Tony--he pushes us to be challenged in our own work.
I am wondering HOW we would discuss form on Clayart? I'd love to have
some sharing on that subject. Recipes are so concrete, easy to share and
discuss. But form is much more elusive to my mind. Maybe when we get the
new software that permits posting images it will be more possible. But
somehow discussing the form of someone's work seems so much more
personal--critical in an offensive sense--than talking about glazes and
glaze results. Can't blame it on the kiln gods!
I loved his reference to "St William Street" (which is really "King
William Street" and as Jim said that is really what Tony wants--kings buying
his work not saints!). We in San Antonio have fond memories of the visit
you two made to our fair city! Maybe there will be a return visit one day
soon. Gay
Lee Love on sun 4 nov 07
On 11/4/07, Tom at Hutchtel.net wrote:
Ok, I really like the 3 big urn type pieces. More texturing, there seems to
> be a unifying structure, ...how are these going to be fired? Shigaraki
> style or some glaze?
I am doing several clay tests in gas firing and in the Anamaga to
develop an co-shigaraki type clay. The old shigaraki clay doesn't
just have junk in it. Actually, it is pretty nice clay, with pure
felspathic inclusions. Actually, potters around Japan import the
smooth Shigaraki clay because it is good clay. Many potters around
Mashiko use it or they use Mashiko clay from the co-op which is
blended with Shigaraki to up the alumina and firing temp. Mashiko is
traditionally only fired to cone 8.
One of my tests is unprocessed yellow banks clay. It has a lot of
junk in it and in no way reminds you of shigaraki caly.
> But I do find that at shows I find precious few pots with good form. Too
> much emphasis on glaze and alteration. Heck, go back in the archives, look
> at how many threads we've had on form....almost none in the 16 years I've
> been on board it's all glaze and methods.
I find the work in Minnesota and Wisconsin refreshing. Check
out the Northern Clay Center Holiday sale. Yes, the sculpture and
show pots take up a lot of space, because they tend to be bigger and
tend to have glazes that catch your attention, but you see a lot of
nice pot that pay attention to good form.
> (PS don't go by our website for what I think good form is....most of those
> pots are 4-5 years old.)
Tom, please put new images up. Would like to see new work.
Don't worry about "professional" slides. Just snapshots so we can
see form.
--
- Hide quoted text -
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by
education." -- Bertrand Russell
Lee Love on sun 4 nov 07
On 11/4/07, Gay Judson wrote:
> I am wondering HOW we would discuss form on Clayart?
Put images up. A weblog is a great way to put stuff up easily.
I tried to set Tony up a couple years ago. Finally someone talked him
into it. Go here:
http://www.blogger.com/home
--
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by
education." -- Bertrand Russell
Lee Love on sun 4 nov 07
Gay,
Frank pointed to some pots that might be interesting to talk about:
http://www.theclaystudio.org/gallery/?gallery=sikora
http://www.theclaystudio.org/gallery/?gallery=metz
What is interesting about both of these potters, is that
while decoration is important to their work, they don't turn their
backs on form.
Linda and Mark Pharis taught me how to throw.
--
Lee in Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid. They are made stupid by
education." -- Bertrand Russell
On 11/4/07, Gay Judson wrote:
> Tom, I can't tell if you were pleased or not that Tony snipped your email
> to him and submitted it to the group--But I am very pleased. Your thoughts
> on the subject are very stimulating. I suspect many of us 'Clayarters' are
> in the same boat you describe: starting out thinking this clay work is all
> about skills and then finding that not totally satisfying, now wanting to be
> involved in the 'art' of it, too. Maybe that is why we are so fond of
> Tony--he pushes us to be challenged in our own work.
> I am wondering HOW we would discuss form on Clayart? I'd love to have
> some sharing on that subject. Recipes are so concrete, easy to share and
> discuss. But form is much more elusive to my mind. Maybe when we get the
> new software that permits posting images it will be more possible. But
> somehow discussing the form of someone's work seems so much more
> personal--critical in an offensive sense--than talking about glazes and
> glaze results. Can't blame it on the kiln gods!
> I loved his reference to "St William Street" (which is really "King
> William Street" and as Jim said that is really what Tony wants--kings buying
> his work not saints!). We in San Antonio have fond memories of the visit
> you two made to our fair city! Maybe there will be a return visit one day
> soon. Gay
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
>
Gary Navarre on mon 5 nov 07
On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 21:22:16 -0400, tony clennell
wrote:
>Tom H in Minnesota wrote:
>I have to push myself a bit to like gnarly stuff.
>
>
>Tom: it is true that most people don't like to be challenged. We have some
>here in our China group that go to KFC and Wal Mart daily so they don't
>have to try the Chinese food. They decided before they came that they
>wouldn't like it so they only eat the white rice and some deep fried meat
>and bread rolls.
Hay Crew,
So before I read anything else as I start the 4 days off in a row I told
them I wanted... well three days in a row on... I'd like to reiterate my
early question which is, "What do the pots in the lawn & garden department
of Wal*Mart of China look like and where do they come from?" Maybe one of
the students who will step foot in the competition will take along a camera,
if it is allowed, and take some shots and check the prices. That's what Sam
Walton did on his lunch hours and created a position for employees known as
"Secret Shopper".
>Don't push yourself to like the gnar gnar Tom. I'm just so pleased that
>you're willing to give it a look before passing judgement.
Them green gnar gnar pots looked like they will have some neat ashing up.
Also reassuring to know men of genus can still conceive their best projects
after a bit of old fashioned partying. Kinda makes me wanna go back to
college. Good luck making more. And eh, stay in there man!
G in da U.P.
Donna Kat on tue 6 nov 07
I repeat the old saying - Viva la Difference!!!
I'm of the old hippie culture that believes my freedoms end, where your
freedoms begin and with that - It is what is different in each of is that
makes for a beautiful and creative world.
I really am not attracted Picasso's later works. I can see the remarkable
skill in them and admire that but what makes me feel good is looking at
his early work. I have absolutely no reason to care about or fault someone
for being attracted to his later work. That is their taste and what they
are. The last thing I want in the world is a bunch of mini-donnas. I
also think it wrong for someone who feels passionately about his later
works to try to make me see them in the same way. You can't 'give' a
particular taste to an individual any more that you can 'give' freedom to
a people.
One of the reasons I have always hated the business of critiquing other's
work is that what it usually comes down to is "but 'I' like things to look
this way!" Add to that the divergence of what your eye is drawn to and
what you yourself feel compelled to make and live with. I am a sucker for
very thin translucent porcelain. Yet I could never bring myself to make
it. When I'm throwing I cannot force myself to make a thin lip. I'll do
it and then immediately grab the chamois and fatten it up. I may love the
beauty of the castle but my soul belongs to the local pub with the heavy
pots that stand up to being thrown about. I belong in the world of
hobbits and not high kings.
I eat off of corelle ware plates most of the time. I find them almost
impossible to break, I throw it into the dishwasher not caring how it
comes out and I can have dozens of plates that I use with a large amount
of guest so I don't have to use paper (which to me is a bad thing). I
dress up the table with hand thrown bowls, casseroles, cups, etc. and I
hand wash these because I have emotional attachments to each one. That is
the way I do things. It is not a wrong way or a right way. I would never
expect someone to do as I do. To say "you HAVE to use your pottery just
like everyday ware!" makes me want to pull out the 2X4 and take a batter's
stance.
I am not above trying to tempt someone into having an adventure with me
but I would never try to push them into doing something even if it was in
my mind something meant just for them. In the reverse I expect others not
to impose their tastes and values on me. Simply put - unless someone is
trying to force their taste or life style on me, it is none of my business
what someone else's taste is or their way of living is.
And so I'm back to where I started. My freedom ends where yours begins!
AND Viva La Difference!
JMO Donna
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