Randy McCall on wed 12 dec 07
Folks
I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with another
similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth moving up to
this time.
Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can go out.
How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well.
Randy
South Carolina
Pottery Web site
http://members.tripod.com/~McCallJ/index.html
Arnold Howard on wed 12 dec 07
From: "Randy McCall"
> I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual
> Skutt with another
> similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are
> worth moving up to
> this time.
-------------
Since I just completed a 3,400-mile road trip, I will
compare kilns to navigation systems.
While a road map requires more skill and attention than a
GPS system, the map also gives you more control. Both
systems will get you to the same destination.
I drove from my home in Mesquite, Texas to Cape May, New
Jersey. At first I didn't trust the GPS that we rented. I
planned the route on my atlas. We started to use the GPS
when we reached New Jersey at 2 a.m.
But the ultimate test of the GPS was driving through
Washington, DC at night to see a few landmarks on the way
home. The GPS was amazing. It was like having a local
resident sitting next to us telling us where to go. Its
female voice even sounded annoyed when we made a wrong turn.
(That made us laugh.)
On the other hand, the GPS was still turned on when we
reached Mesquite at 4 a.m., and it told us to go the long
way over a freeway under construction. I ignored it and took
the short way home.
The manual-fire kiln, like a road atlas, is simple to use.
It is simple to repair and gives you total control of the
firing.
The digital kiln, on the other hand, requires less attention
just like a GPS system. Once a digital kiln is set up
properly, it will give consistently repeatable results. But
it is also more complicated to troubleshoot when something
goes wrong. And the K-Type thermocouple drifts in
temperature over its life cycle. (You can overcome that by
getting the more expensive S-Type.)
Nothing beats digital for complex firings such as
crystalline glazes. It is almost like having someone sit
next to your kiln for you.
By the way, if you don't want digital, you can also buy an
automatic kiln that uses mechanical controls.
If I were buying a kiln, it would be digital. It is more fun
to use. And once you understand them, they are simple to
maintain.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
beardiepaw on wed 12 dec 07
Hi Randy, I have one of each. For slow cooling and finicky glazes, I lov=
e
my programmable kiln, it is an Evenheat. I had to replace the thermocoup=
le
this summer, and the people there were great.=0D
=0D
I also love my old Cress, I still use It a lot. I use it for glazes that
don't need special TLC. =0D
=0D
Sher Morrow Have a great holiday =20
Bonnie Hellman on wed 12 dec 07
Randy, you can buy (for slightly more money, 10 years ago it was $100 more)
a wall mounted computer controller, which gives you a "manual" kiln with
sitter and timer (if you pay for the timer), and a controller into which
your kiln gets plugged. Because you at least have a kiln sitter, you have a
second shut off device.
In other words, changing elements should be no more complicated than with a
manual kiln (because what you have IS a manual kiln), and if anything about
the controller ever fails (like a thermocouple if you don't keep a spare,
which is a good idea) you can still fire manually.
I'm betting that if you get used to a computer controller, you won't want to
go back.
Bonnie
Bonnie D. Hellman
Ouray, Colorado 81427
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy McCall"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:55 AM
Subject: Automatic Kilns
> Folks
>
> I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with
> another
> similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth moving up
> to
> this time.
>
> Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can go
> out.
> How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
>
> Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well.
>
>
> Randy
> South Carolina
> Pottery Web site
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~McCallJ/index.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
John Hesselberth on wed 12 dec 07
On Dec 12, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Arnold Howard wrote:
> The manual-fire kiln, like a road atlas, is simple to use.
> It is simple to repair and gives you total control of the
> firing.
Hi Arnold,
I rarely disagree with you, but here I must. The manual kiln gives
you almost no control over the cool down rate which is the most
important part of the firing. The computer controlled kiln gives you
good control over cool down.
And to Randy I have to add that I will never buy another manual kiln.
Control of cool down is critical to achieving the results you want
yet it is still ignored by most potters.
Regards,
John
John Hesselberth
www.frogpondpottery.com
"Man is a tool-using animal....without tools he is nothing, with
tools he is all" .... Thomas Carlyle
Arnold Howard on wed 12 dec 07
From: "John Hesselberth"
The manual kiln gives
> you almost no control over the cool down rate which is the
> most
> important part of the firing.
I agree with you, John. Controlling the cool down with
infinite switches and pyrometer would be like driving
through Washington, DC at night with a map instead of GPS.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Hank Murrow on wed 12 dec 07
On Dec 12, 2007, at 7:33 AM, John Hesselberth wrote:
> On Dec 12, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Arnold Howard wrote:
>
>> The manual-fire kiln, like a road atlas, is simple to use.
>> It is simple to repair and gives you total control of the
>> firing.
>
> Hi Arnold,
>
> I rarely disagree with you, but here I must. The manual kiln gives
> you almost no control over the cool down rate which is the most
> important part of the firing. The computer controlled kiln gives you
> good control over cool down.
>
> And to Randy I have to add that I will never buy another manual kiln.
> Control of cool down is critical to achieving the results you want
> yet it is still ignored by most potters.
Amen John!
This potter, who works in a gas Doorless FiberKiln has learned that a
soak in oxidation around 1800_1900F for as little as one hour to as
much as 8 hours works wonders with both color and surface. Just
opened a load to find extremely rich bloody shinos and blue celadons.
Potting 50 years, and only learned this in the last 15!
Fortuneatly, my kiln is very predictable, so I don't miss the
automatic controls, though getting up in the middle of the night IS
becoming old for thios 68 year-old potter.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene
www.murrow.biz/hank
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on wed 12 dec 07
" Fortuneatly, my kiln is very predictable, so I
don't miss the
automatic controls, though getting up in the
middle of the night IS
becoming old for thios 68 year-old potter.
Cheers, Hank in Eugene"
I am 66 and prefer to put Iron Oxide in my Shinos
and skip
getting up in the middle of the night and driving
20 minutes
to reoxidize my load of pots.
Gis la revido,
Edouard Bastarache
Spertesperantisto
Sorel-Tracy
Quebec
http://www.sorel-tracy.qc.ca/~edouardb/Welcome.html
http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/livres.htm
http://www.pshcanada.com/Toxicology.htm
http://www.ceramique.com/librairie/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/
http://myblogsmesblogs.blogspot.com/
Hank Murrow on wed 12 dec 07
On Dec 12, 2007, at 12:49 PM, Edouard Bastarache Inc. wrote:
> " Fortuneatly, my kiln is very predictable, so I
> don't miss the
> automatic controls, though getting up in the
> middle of the night IS
> becoming old for thios 68 year-old potter.
> Cheers, Hank in Eugene"
>
> I am 66 and prefer to put Iron Oxide in my Shinos
> and skip
> getting up in the middle of the night and driving
> 20 minutes
> to reoxidize my load of pots.
> Gis la revido,
> Edouard Bastarache
Well Edouard;
Can't get the lovely variation between soft white and blood red if
iron is in the glaze........... and that is what I prefer.
Cheers, a tired Hank in Eugene
see them @ http://www.ceramicsmonthly.org/mustreads/shinofire.asp
John Rodgers on wed 12 dec 07
Randy,
In the last few years I have used all three electric kiln types. I began
with the manual electrics, in time got two automatics - which I
absolutely loved - and then two years ago moved up to cone 10
computerized electrics - specifically by brand - Paragon's - which are
just fabulous!
There are a variety of considerations that need to be made with these
types.
_The manual kiln:_ Most newer ones -ie - last 20 years - will have a
kiln sitter with timer. Having that timer is most important. Having the
timer gives you a safety if there is a misfire for whatever reason, and
it also provides you with the ability to have some control over cooling
rates, holding periods on cool down, etc. Once a firing is complete, the
kiln trigger can be jammed, and the cool down and/or holding periods
controlled by the timer. But it is mostly as a safety shutoff. My first
manual kilns were Duncans. They performed well.
_The automatic kiln:_ Same as a manual - includes kiln sitter with
timer - but also with mechanical control switches with built in timers
directly controlling the elements. I had two Paragon SnF automatic kilns
and they were great. Just sold the last one last year. Each switch
allowed setting of the amount of power to a given set of rows of
elements. The timer part of the switch determined how long it would be
before it turned on the row of elements it controlled. The first switch
would fire a series of elements, then the next switch would count down
the time, and turn on to the power setting to which it was set, then the
third switch would follow suite. This was a ramping procedure controlled
by sequencing switches. The kiln sitter timer provided a safety backup.
_The computerized kiln: _ A very different beast, especially if you get
a Cone 10 version. There are number of different brands available. My
current kilns ( I have 2 of these Cone 10 models) are Paragon Models
TnF 24" computerized models with single zone control - meaning a single
thermocouple provides the input for the controller. There are 3-zone
controllers available which are intended to provide a more uniformly
heated atmosphere in the kiln.
These kilns are incredibly easy to fire. They offer many firing options.
With a computer controller you can use one of the built in cone firing
programs, or you can input your own. You can also do a set up to control
the ramping and holding on the firing up side, the hold time at
maturity, then on the cooling side you can set the cooling rate and any
holding periods on the way. down. I prefer to fire during the day when I
can keep an eye on things. So, one of my firing sequences is a set up to
delay firing until 4 am, at which time the kiln will turn on, ramp to
204 degrees and hold for 4 hours to complete the final drying of the
ware - whether greenware (most particularly greenware) - or glaze. At
the end of the four hours, the kiln begins to ramp up though the firing
sequence. For most firings I simply select a cone number during the
computer set up. When the controller reads the correct algorithm
(temperature vs time = cone) for the specified cone the kiln is shut
down. Again, depending on the settings, it may do a direct cool down or
it may ramp the cool down. The kiln will not under any circumstance cool
faster than the physical mass of the kiln can naturally give up it's
heat energy.
The energy flow through the kiln can be an issue that should be
considered carefully when deciding to get a cone 10 kiln versus some
other rated kiln. I had Paragon kilns rated at Cone 8 and now have Cone
10 kilns. I love my Cone 10'ers, but there are some headaches. The first
negative I discovered was that it took longer to fire the Cone 10 than
the Cone 8, just by virtue of the shear size of the mass that has to be
heated then cooled. A Cone 10 kiln has a much greater mass that a Cone 8
kiln, so if you are in a hurry, a cone 10 kiln may not be for you.
This heating/cooling thing gets to the heart of the business of energy
saving. I fire heavily at Cone 6, and because of that the Cone 10 is
definitely over-kill. But, having the Cone 10 kiln will begin to pay in
2008 when I expect to be deep into Crystal Glazing, which for best
performance needs the capacity to go solidly to Cone 8 and above.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the thicker construction of a
Cone 10 kiln will be particularly energy saving if you fire to lower
temps. All that extra mass is still going to require a lot of energy to
heat.
Finally, I want to say something about kiln lids. In my experience - and
I have worked with many brands - and for the most part they all SUCK!
Some of those kilns were great - but lifting the lids would give a
strong man a hernia. How are women supposed to lift such a thing? The
Paragon Lite-lid system is the best thing I have ever seen. The lid has
a floating, self-seating, cantilevered, spring-balanced system that can
be operated with two fingers - up or down. That feature alone is almost
enough to justify buying a Paragon. Of course the Kilns do perform well
- and Paragon does does provide excellent tech support and they are
most accessible. If you ever have a problem or a question, contact
Arnold Howard at Paragon. Good man. He will do his best for you.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Randy McCall wrote:
> Folks
>
> I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with another
> similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth moving up to
> this time.
>
> Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can go out.
> How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
>
> Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well.
>
>
> Randy
> South Carolina
> Pottery Web site
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~McCallJ/index.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
>
>
>
Chaeli Sullivan on wed 12 dec 07
Hi Randy
Tipping my hat in everyone else's direaction -- used a manual kiln for years; first with glass slumping then with potter.
Never thought i would but bought a digital kiln and what a joy it is! It's reliable, dependable and really takes the stress out of life especially if someone comes to the door at exactly the time the manual kiln needs to be adjusted.
Go for it
Chae
http://claygallimaufry.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
vpitelka on wed 12 dec 07
Randy wrote:
"I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with another
similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth moving up to
this time.
Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can go out.
How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well."
Randy -
Saying that there are more things to go out on a programmable kiln than on
an older manual kiln is kind of like saying that there are more things to go
out on a 2008 Toyota Camry than on a 1975 Chevy Biscayne. Which one would
you rather trust on a cross-country drive with your family? Sure,
technically there are more parts in a programmable kiln, but they really
have it down today when building quality computer components. Modern
programmable kilns are incredibly reliable. Changing elements on them is
exactly like changing elements on a manual kiln. But you have none of the
problems with Kiln Sitter cone supports, sensor rod, sensor tube, shutoff
latch, switch contacts, etc., and it really is so much easier to fire with
them. And then of course you have the option of custom programs, especially
valuable for firing down in order to promote visual texture in glazes.
Skutt and Paragon both make great kilns. For the kind of academic setting
where I teach, I have always been partial to L&L. I like the refractory
element holders. We have five L&Ls - three e23Ts, a big 30-cu. ft. Easyfire
frontloader, and a small Easyfire test kiln equipped with the same
programmable controller. We bought our first Easyfire e23T about six years
ago. We use our electrics very heavily, and I have yet to have a single
problem with any of the Easyfire controllers.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Jason Zwierzchowski on thu 13 dec 07
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:55:36 -0500, Randy McCall wrote:
>Folks
>
>I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with another
>similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth moving up to
>this time.
>
>Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can go out.
>How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
>
>Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well.
>
>
>Randy
>South Carolina
>Pottery Web site
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~McCallJ/index.html
>
I am a proud owner of Skutt KM 1027.
I learned in a studio with similar ones. When it came to buying my own I
bought more then I thought I would need, Glad I did.
The elements when they wear out are very easy to replace, although your back
will be tired from bending over the brick.
You can have as much or as little control over the firing cycle as you want.
It can be fully automatic (preprogrammed any cone) or you can program in
many stages up and down plus holds anywhere. With most firings I still put a
witness cone in to keep watch in case the thermocouple begins to decline.
In a busy classroom studio setting the thermocouple only had to be replaced
ounce every two years due to normal wear. The elements lasted twice as long.
I love my Kiln and I feel that I'm cheating , cause I can sleep through a
firing and not worry about it. A big factor in making them last as long and
perform as well as they should is keeping them clean inside.
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
>subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
WJ Seidl on thu 13 dec 07
For my money, I'll take the '75 Biscayne. (I owned a '74; 6 cylinder., 3
on the tree, moved cross country in it...twice)
That car had no computer, and if something does break, it's a more
logical fix, easily accomplished if one has the parts
since all the sensors and effluvia inherent in a computer operated
system didn't exist in that vehicle. "Does it have spark? Is it getting
gas? Then it should run. Period."
Even a guy like me, with a basic toolbox in the trunk could fix that
car. No need for anything fancier than an ohmeter and a brain.
If Randy likes the manual kiln, that's what he should continue with.
Saying "...they really have it down today when building quality computer
components..." is a full load of crap Vince.
Sorry, but somebody sold you a bill of goods if you honestly believe
that. I'll agree that they DO really have it down when it comes to
building cheap crappy components fast. Ask anyone that fixes computers
for a living.
I'm reminded of the scene from the movie "Armageddon", where the Russian
and American astronauts are stuck trying to get the shuttle to start
so that they can take off from the asteroid they've been sent to destroy
before the thing gets too close to earth for a nuclear explosion they
rigged.
After not so patiently waiting for the American to go through her
checklist, the Russian fixes it by pounding on the control panel with a
wrench, yelling
"Russian components, American components...is all made in Taiwan!"
Stick with what you know, Randy. I'm not saying that a computer
controlled kiln won't serve you well, but you were correct. There IS
more "stuff" to go wrong, starting with the controller, the
thermocouples, the relays, etc. The elements should be about the same
amount of work to replace.
Just my opinion,
Wayne Seidl
driving an '04 Jeep Grand Cherokee I can't work on, and wishing I had
that Biscayne now.
vpitelka wrote:
> Randy wrote:
> "I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with another
> similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth moving up to
> this time.
> Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can go out.
> How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
> Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well."
>
> Randy -
>
> Saying that there are more things to go out on a programmable kiln than on
> an older manual kiln is kind of like saying that there are more things to go
> out on a 2008 Toyota Camry than on a 1975 Chevy Biscayne. Which one would
> you rather trust on a cross-country drive with your family? Sure,
> technically there are more parts in a programmable kiln, but they really
> have it down today when building quality computer components. Modern
> programmable kilns are incredibly reliable. Changing elements on them is
> exactly like changing elements on a manual kiln. But you have none of the
> problems with Kiln Sitter cone supports, sensor rod, sensor tube, shutoff
> latch, switch contacts, etc., and it really is so much easier to fire with
> them. And then of course you have the option of custom programs, especially
> valuable for firing down in order to promote visual texture in glazes.
>
> Skutt and Paragon both make great kilns. For the kind of academic setting
> where I teach, I have always been partial to L&L. I like the refractory
> element holders. We have five L&Ls - three e23Ts, a big 30-cu. ft. Easyfire
> frontloader, and a small Easyfire test kiln equipped with the same
> programmable controller. We bought our first Easyfire e23T about six years
> ago. We use our electrics very heavily, and I have yet to have a single
> problem with any of the Easyfire controllers.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
>
>
KATHI LESUEUR on thu 13 dec 07
On Dec 13, 2007, at 7:52 AM, WJ Seidl wrote:
> For my money, I'll take the '75 Biscayne. (I owned a '74; 6
> cylinder., 3
> on the tree, moved cross country in it...twice)
> That car had no computer, and if something does break, it's a more
> logical fix, easily accomplished if one has the parts
> since all the sensors and effluvia inherent in a computer operated
> system didn't exist in that vehicle. "Does it have spark? Is it
> getting
> gas? Then it should run. Period."..............
> Stick with what you know, Randy. I'm not saying that a computer
> controlled kiln won't serve you well, but you were correct. There IS
> more "stuff" to go wrong, starting with the controller, the
> thermocouples, the relays, etc. The elements should be about the same
> amount of work to replace.>>>
I just put the fourth controller in my Evenheat kiln. It is one of
the first generation of computer controlled kilns and I know things
have gotten better. But, four controllers, a set of relays, and many
thermocouples later, I wish I'd just gone with a standard kiln. In
the meantime, my twenty year old Crusader has a different track
record. I've never replaced an element, switch, or anything else on
it. I only fire bisque in it, but that's all I do with the Evenheat,
too. My next electric kiln will be old technology and I'll just deal
with turning switches up and down. I have to be around to make sure
the Evenheat doesn't malfunction anyway, so I might as well just be
around to turn up switches.
Kathi
>
John Rodgers on thu 13 dec 07
Wayne,
Are you suggesting that the K.I.S.S. principle is best applied here??
How could you? After all, for companies to stay in business they must
constantly build - and sell - better mouse traps to meet the
competition, right? I suppose more whistles and bells appeal to some.
For me, I'm a minimalist at heart - I want only what meets my needs. I
even have a Volkswagen bus as my daily driver. Currently, the
computerized kiln meets my needs. BUT, should circumstances change, the
more simple machine would serve best. Forget the glitz. Get what best
serves your need.
Regards,
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
WJ Seidl wrote:
> For my money, I'll take the '75 Biscayne. (I owned a '74; 6 cylinder., 3
> on the tree, moved cross country in it...twice)
> That car had no computer, and if something does break, it's a more
> logical fix, easily accomplished if one has the parts
> since all the sensors and effluvia inherent in a computer operated
> system didn't exist in that vehicle. "Does it have spark? Is it getting
> gas? Then it should run. Period."
> Even a guy like me, with a basic toolbox in the trunk could fix that
> car. No need for anything fancier than an ohmeter and a brain.
>
> If Randy likes the manual kiln, that's what he should continue with.
>
> Saying "...they really have it down today when building quality computer
> components..." is a full load of crap Vince.
> Sorry, but somebody sold you a bill of goods if you honestly believe
> that. I'll agree that they DO really have it down when it comes to
> building cheap crappy components fast. Ask anyone that fixes computers
> for a living.
>
> I'm reminded of the scene from the movie "Armageddon", where the Russian
> and American astronauts are stuck trying to get the shuttle to start
> so that they can take off from the asteroid they've been sent to destroy
> before the thing gets too close to earth for a nuclear explosion they
> rigged.
> After not so patiently waiting for the American to go through her
> checklist, the Russian fixes it by pounding on the control panel with a
> wrench, yelling
> "Russian components, American components...is all made in Taiwan!"
>
> Stick with what you know, Randy. I'm not saying that a computer
> controlled kiln won't serve you well, but you were correct. There IS
> more "stuff" to go wrong, starting with the controller, the
> thermocouples, the relays, etc. The elements should be about the same
> amount of work to replace.
>
> Just my opinion,
> Wayne Seidl
> driving an '04 Jeep Grand Cherokee I can't work on, and wishing I had
> that Biscayne now.
>
> vpitelka wrote:
>> Randy wrote:
>> "I am getting ready to replace my 35 year old 1027 manual Skutt with
>> another
>> similar kiln and was wondering if the automatic kilns are worth
>> moving up to
>> this time.
>> Wondering about maintenance of these kilns with more things that can
>> go out.
>> How about replacing the heating elements, more difficult, etc?
>> Are they worth it? The manual kiln has served me well."
>>
>> Randy -
>>
>> Saying that there are more things to go out on a programmable kiln
>> than on
>> an older manual kiln is kind of like saying that there are more
>> things to go
>> out on a 2008 Toyota Camry than on a 1975 Chevy Biscayne. Which one
>> would
>> you rather trust on a cross-country drive with your family? Sure,
>> technically there are more parts in a programmable kiln, but they really
>> have it down today when building quality computer components. Modern
>> programmable kilns are incredibly reliable. Changing elements on
>> them is
>> exactly like changing elements on a manual kiln. But you have none
>> of the
>> problems with Kiln Sitter cone supports, sensor rod, sensor tube,
>> shutoff
>> latch, switch contacts, etc., and it really is so much easier to fire
>> with
>> them. And then of course you have the option of custom programs,
>> especially
>> valuable for firing down in order to promote visual texture in glazes.
>>
>> Skutt and Paragon both make great kilns. For the kind of academic
>> setting
>> where I teach, I have always been partial to L&L. I like the refractory
>> element holders. We have five L&Ls - three e23Ts, a big 30-cu. ft.
>> Easyfire
>> frontloader, and a small Easyfire test kiln equipped with the same
>> programmable controller. We bought our first Easyfire e23T about six
>> years
>> ago. We use our electrics very heavily, and I have yet to have a single
>> problem with any of the Easyfire controllers.
>> - Vince
>>
>> Vince Pitelka
>> Appalachian Center for Craft
>> Tennessee Tech University
>> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
>> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________________
>>
>> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
>> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots2@visi.com
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
>
William & Susan Schran User on thu 13 dec 07
On 12/12/07 6:56 PM, "John Rodgers" wrote:
> But, having the Cone 10 kiln will begin to pay in
> 2008 when I expect to be deep into Crystal Glazing, which for best
> performance needs the capacity to go solidly to Cone 8 and above.
Not necessarily true.
I've been working with crystalline glazes at ^6 for years and just completed
the 4th class on this subject with my students in a community college
setting. They've been getting some fantastic results, a few pots with
crystals larger than 2" diameter!
Just wrapped up a solo show, all ^6 crystal glazes. Went very well. Started
with 120 pots, had about 20 pots to take home when the show ended. Then the
gallery asked me to bring the 20 pots back to be included in their holiday
exhibition.
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
John Post on thu 13 dec 07
Aside from the slow cooling already mentioned by John H., one of the
single best benefits of a computer kiln for school teachers is the
ability to slowly increase the temperature for firing bisque. Beginners
sometimes tend to make clunky heavy things and sometimes my students
make large dinosaurs that are not hollow. I set my kiln to hold at 185
degrees F for anywhere from 2 to 6 hours and then I proceed at 100
degrees F per hour up to 600.
I haven't lost a single piece to a steam explosion in the last 10 years.
The other great feature for firing in a school setting is the ability to
set a delayed start. I can set my kiln to start firing in the middle of
the night and then go through the highest temperatures the next day when
I am there. I fire my kilns at home starting at midnight when my
electricity rate is a bit lower. This convenience of this feature alone
makes it worthwhile.
As far as the old car / new car debate goes, how many late model cars do
you see broken down by the side of the road?
Car manufacturers have got car technology to be much more reliable over
the last few decades. Something may start to wear out on your car, but
you can almost always drive it to the dealership yourself. I personally
would rather spend time working with my tools (car, kiln etc.) than on them.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
http://www.schwarzkoff.com
http://www.plumbrook.org
vpitelka on thu 13 dec 07
Wayne wrote:
"For my money, I'll take the '75 Biscayne. (I owned a '74; 6 cylinder., 3 on
the tree, moved cross country in it...twice). That car had no computer, and
if something does break, it's a more logical fix, easily accomplished if
one has the parts since all the sensors and effluvia inherent in a computer
operated system didn't exist in that vehicle. "Does it have spark? Is it
getting gas? Then it should run. Period." Even a guy like me, with a basic
toolbox in the trunk could fix that car. No need for anything fancier than
an ohmeter and a brain."
Wayne -
I'll certainly agree with you about the simplicity and "roadside fixibility"
of the '75 Biscayne. That falls into the period when I was maintaining and
fixing police cars (and dump trucks and backhoes and graders and rollers etc
etc) for the City of Arcata. I do have fond memories of the days when you
could diagnose problems so easily. I did that quite a few years, and I am
glad for the experience, but it hardly applies to automobiles today.
On the other hand, you're way off on the reliability and the computer
components. My wife and I have owned Volvos, Toyotas, and Isuzus, all of
which have onboard computers determining performance and reliability, and
the only things that ever go wrong with them are the standard parts that
wear out - belts, hoses, water pumps, timing belts, etc. The computers
never give any problem. There are few parts on a '75 Biscayne where you
could make that statement. In general, cars today are much more reliable
than cars 25 years ago, and they also run much longer. Do a good job of
preventative maintenance, and any Toyota or Volvo will go for a quarter of a
million miles with no engine work at all. Back in the days of the '75
Biscayne you were lucky to make it to 100K miles without an overhaul.
Wayne wrote:
"If Randy likes the manual kiln, that's what he should continue with."
Don't be unnecessarily contentious, Wayne. He asked for opinions, and
that's what I gave him.
Wayne wrote:
"Saying "...they really have it down today when building quality computer
components..." is a full load of crap Vince. Sorry, but somebody sold you a
bill of goods if you honestly believe that. I'll agree that they DO really
have it down when it comes to building cheap crappy components fast. Ask
anyone that fixes computers for a living."
Thanks for giving me credit for having some idea of what the hell I'm
talking about. Your blanket statement is BS, of course. No bill of goods,
just sound practical experience. Computer components are incredibly
reliable unless you buy crap, and if you do, that's your own damn fault.
People who fix computers for a living get the lemons, but the number of
repair jobs they get is microscopic in comparison to the number of computers
out there working away reliably every day. Every car and practically every
appliance made today contains a computer. The whole world runs on computer
technology now, and if it was as unreliable as you say, the electronic
infrastructure would have failed repeatedly and catastrophically and we'd be
well on our way back to the Dark Ages.
And for you Randy, it's time to move into the 21st century. Get rid of that
'75 Biscayne manual kiln and move up to the Toyota Prius programmable kiln.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Terrance Lazaroff on fri 14 dec 07
When I hear all this car stuff I think of my 2003 BMW 2002. This was a
great car and it was easy to maintain. It had one of the first black boxes
installed that ran all its electronic functions. One day my windshield
wipers stopped. I had to replace the box at a $250.00 cost. This was
around 1980. I would be very afraid to know what they cost today. The box
was about two inches cube. Nevertheless, I drove that car for 14 years and
it worked very well and I enjoyed it until one day it did not start and I
could not figure out what was wrong. There went my confidence and it never
returned. I have had the same feeling with all my motor driven devices.
The first time it does not run and I cannot figure out how to get it going,
I loose confidence. I think it would be the same with a computer control
kiln.
I am sure the computers work fine after all they work fine in the dessert
and in the North Pole and under the sea. It is the parts that are attached
where the problem will arise and I don't know how to fix them. I am sure
the expense of replacement parts could be justified by the quality of life
that this type of computer would give. Imagine setting your kiln and having
it do all the work for you and do it economically. Planning your firing
today to have it finish tomorrow. Try new cool down glazes. Wow.
I think it depends on ones ability to have the kiln fixed or to be able to
fix it ourselves. Maybe a course on electronic kiln repairs is needed. If
one lives far from the nearest technician one is in trouble when the
electronic control kiln stops for a minor problem and we cannot figure out
how to get it through the firing.
Another good idea is to have some sort of usage data published on the
operating times between replacements and repairs. This might encourage
people to jump on to the electronic control wagon. I have heard that one
has to replace the thermocouples about every thirty firings. I find it
difficult to believe this but yet it keeps me at a distance.
I don't think we can avoid neither repairs nor maintenance. But I don't
want to have to miss a show because I could not figure out how to get it
going long enough to finish the firing.
It is part of life.
Terrance
Kathy Forer on fri 14 dec 07
On Dec 14, 2007, at 1:34 AM, Terrance Lazaroff wrote:
> When I hear all this car stuff I think of my 2003 BMW 2002. This
> was a
> great car and it was easy to maintain. It had one of the first
> black boxes
> installed that ran all its electronic functions. One day my
> windshield
> wipers stopped. I had to replace the box at a $250.00 cost. This was
> around 1980.
I think you mean 1973 BMW 2002, don't you? (They stopped making the
2002 in 1976 or 77.) I got one in 1976 as an insurance (plus)
replacement for my used Opel wagon that a classmate had totaled on
the long ride home from school one icy night. The 2002 lasted for 25
years, though it sat out for quite a few of them as I was in the city
where no one needs a car. I finally had to give it up when the frame
started to give out (too many years sitting outside) and I felt like
WIlma Flintstone driving my pedal-motion car, just a few millimeters
from putting my foot through the flooring.
Since I was forced to give up the 2002 in the year 2001, I've driven
three cars, all family hand-me-downs though quite nice ones. Every
single one of them has had at least one, if not multiple sensor
problems. This last problem cost $841 for a "thermostatic sensor"
that regulates the engine temperature. Ridiculous! $500 part and
three hours labor ...and a non-official mechanic is reluctant to work
on sensors so you pay full price at the the dealer/repair-place. They
have a set hourly estimate regardless how long it really does take
and I somehow doubt this took three hours. I can see paying that
price for a thermo-acoustic engine... that would be nice! Run your
car on sound waves.
Do they make any cars anymore without sensors? I want a completely
mechanical car that runs on something renewable but I think that's
non-existent (unless it be homemade). Instead the powers that be
lower the gas mileage requirements by one or two miles. Where is the
manifestation and supportive assertion of knowhow and innovation in
this country? Capital just does what it needs to, no more.
Kathy
Earl Brunner on fri 14 dec 07
As the resident studio tech and one of the instructors at one of our city art centers, I have used computerized Skutts for more than 13 years. We used to have two 1027s and replaced them with a couple of 1227s a few years ago. We fire each kiln at least once a week and often two times a week. Elements typically last about a year to a year and a half, glaze firing to cone 6. During that time, I've had two pyrometer probes fail during firings, and one relay. I replace the probes when I replace the elements, and when the relay failed we replaced all of the relays. I can't remember if we went from mechanical relays to mercury, or the other way around, the one kind isn't supposed to have as many problems. I keep a full set of spare elements on hand and a spare pyrometer probe. I also keep a spare controller box on hand for the Brent wheels and spare foot pedal parts. I think having the spare parts on hand for some common problems is key.
Of course also having two kilns to fire with is also nice because a problem would rarely affect both at the same time.
----- Original Message ----
From: Terrance Lazaroff
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:34:06 PM
Subject: Re: Automatic Kilns
................I don't think we can avoid neither repairs nor maintenance. But I don't
want to have to miss a show because I could not figure out how to get it
going long enough to finish the firing.
It is part of life.
Terrance
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
William & Susan Schran User on fri 14 dec 07
On 12/13/07 11:41 PM, "Jason Zwierzchowski" wrote:
> I love my Kiln and I feel that I'm cheating , cause I can sleep through a
> firing and not worry about it.
Jason - One day you may worry about it!
Go ahead and take a nap during the firing, but be awake around the time the
kiln is due to shut down!
--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com
Earl Brunner on fri 14 dec 07
I have found that when working on the kilns I am a lot more comfortable if I take the kiln all the way appart. If I know I'm doing the elements I try to have a couple of replacement bricks on hand, then I can do general repairs as I go. I work on each ring individually and place up higher on a table wher I don't have to bend over so much. It really helps the back. I sometimes flip the bottom of the kiln if it's getting to messy. And I sometimes switch the rings so the the worn bricks on the very top row get replaced. that gets a little complicated because you have to move the sheet metal sheath so that all the hardware screw holes match. but the kiln looks alot better when you are done.
----- Original Message ----
Jason Zwierzchowski
I am a proud owner of Skutt KM 1027.
I learned in a studio with similar ones. When it came to buying my own I
bought more then I thought I would need, Glad I did.
The elements when they wear out are very easy to replace, although your back
will be tired from bending over the brick.
Arnold Howard on fri 14 dec 07
From: "Terrance Lazaroff"
> I think it depends on ones ability to have the kiln fixed
> or to be able to
> fix it ourselves. Maybe a course on electronic kiln
> repairs is needed.
The Prius headlight discussion is fascinating and one I can
relate to, because my Ford F-150 won't start. My wife's
uncle thinks the problem may be the anti-theft program built
into the key.
In some ways, modern kilns are easier than ever to work on.
When I first started with Paragon, the switch boxes had to
be propped awkwardly when you worked on the kiln. Now most
models have a hinged box.
The digital models are more complicated than the early kilns
with 4-way rotary switches. Nevertheless, there isn't much
to go wrong in a digital kiln. The system is simple and easy
to understand. The components:
1/2 amp fuse: helps to protect the controller
transformer: sends 24 volts AC to the controller
controller: decides when the elements turn on
thermocouple: sends temperature reading to the controller
relays: receive 12 volt DC signal from the controller
telling the relays to turn on the elements
elements: heat the kiln
Once you understand that basic system, you can understand
digital kilns of all brands. And once you understand how
they work, you can fix them yourself. They are definitely
simpler than the Prius headlight!
Look at the wiring diagram of a digital kiln, and you will
find all the components I listed above. Even the most
complicated digital kiln has that same basic design.
http://www.paragonweb.com/Instruction_Manuals.cfm
Click on the link and scroll down to Sentry 12-Key
Controller Trouble Shooter, which is a pdf file. On page 2
you will find a diagram showing how digital kilns work.
Sincerely,
Arnold Howard
Paragon Industries, L.P., Mesquite, Texas USA
ahoward@paragonweb.com / www.paragonweb.com
Donald Burroughs on sat 15 dec 07
Hello Jason
Just some fair warning, a computer controlled kiln while it might be
convienent,good on elements,and easy to fire is no excuse to sleep through
the firing. I know of a situation where the programmable kiln was firing
through the night and when they came into the studio in the morning found
their very new kiln a glow,well over-fired, and totally fried (kiln
shelves even warped!). They even had a downdraft exhaust which could not
vent that much heat, but may very well exhausted enough heat to avoid a
total disaster. Luckily for them they did not burn down the studio and
lose everything. I would suggest power napping if you are going to fire
through the night or at least day fire to monitor your investment.
As for myself, when I fire, the controller is a convienence to program
ahead and have the kiln start a couple of hrs before I awake. That way I
know that the kiln is still in an early heat stage equivalent to a kitchen
oven and less of potential hazard.
Don
Terrance Lazaroff on sat 15 dec 07
Arnold wrote;
>The digital models are more complicated than the early kilns
>with 4-way rotary switches. Nevertheless, there isn't much
>to go wrong in a digital kiln. The system is simple and easy
>to understand. The components
This is great information. I did not know that this info was available.
Big thanks to Arnold and the Paragon crew. I have booked marked this page
for future. Well done.
PS you are right about the hinged door. A simple thing like that can make
life so easy.
Terrance
Terrance Lazaroff on sat 15 dec 07
Kathy wrote;
I think you mean 1973 BMW 2002, don't you? (They stopped making the
2002 in 1976 or 77.)
Yes your are right. It was a 1973 model. I guess I am playing at being
captain Panasonic, Ahead of my time.
Terrance
KATHI LESUEUR on sun 16 dec 07
On Dec 14, 2007, at 10:20 AM, William & Susan Schran User wrote:
> On 12/13/07 11:41 PM, "Jason Zwierzchowski"
> wrote:
>
>> I love my Kiln and I feel that I'm cheating , cause I can sleep
>> through a
>> firing and not worry about it.
>
> Jason - One day you may worry about it!
> Go ahead and take a nap during the firing, but be awake around the
> time the
> kiln is due to shut down!
>
>
Absolutely right, Bill. I loved my computer controlled kiln also. I
could just "set it and forget it". Until the day I couldn't. That
was the day a relay stuck and the kiln overfired a load of bisque.
Twelve five piece place settings for an order I'd guaranteed would be
shipped in time for Passover. I had two weeks to make everything
again, fix the kiln, fire the bisque and glaze, and ship it UPS
overnite. I've never trusted the kiln again. I program it to start
as midnight so that I'm there in the last third of the firing. Some
day the same thing will happen to Jason unless he heeds the advice of
those who've already suffered the consequences. But, most people
think, "that will never happen to me".
Kathi
> --
| |
|
