Rod on sat 22 dec 07
Just needs to be said (again)
I just wanted to say to any new folks on this list that breaking a Bison
tool while trimming is not something that I have ever heard of myself and I
would hate that this could possibly be perceived as a negative review of a
Bison tool.
To break a tool while trimming I think could only happen if (a you are used
to other trimming tools and habitually tap\knock the tool on something to
get the trimmings off, or b) even less likely perhaps trimming too
aggressively with the tool being held at an incorrect angle thereby causing
undue stress. With the tool held at the correct angle, which differs from
other tools; Dolan, etc. there should be no need to use any kind of undue
force to have enormous amounts of clay removed.
The Bison tool that I trim with the most I can guarantee it has trimmed 10's
of 1000's of pots, and I'm still delaying sending it to Phil for another
sharpening. I painfully repeat that this is not hyperbole - easily 10's of
1000's.
A Bison tool properly cared for will pay for itself 50-100 times or more. I
used to love the old Dolan 555 and when I first switched to Phil's tools
years ago, I think perhaps that I was the first person who asked him to make
this shape, and now I believe he carries this wonderful shape as regular
stock. The problem with that Dolan 555 is that I had to get up from my wheel
sometimes 4-5 times a day and sharpen it on my grinder. That's wasted time
in my books, never mind that I was buying new ones every time I went to my
supplier.
Anyways I'll get off my Bison soap box but I'll tell you I'm damn proud to
stand on this particular soap box - there are no tools like a Bison tool.
These new "cryogenically" frozen tools from Axner sound a bit like fruit
loopery to me, but time will tell! I've read a few articles in popular
literature about this technique but have not seen a whisper of it mentioned
in the two science journals that I subscribe to. I'm pretty sure everything
I see on CNN isn't true ;)
What's your take on this Phil?
Cheers,
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Jennifer Boyer
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:25 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: Groovy tools
You're not alone Charles in terms of breaking Bisons. I've had 2
break while I'm trimming: no dropping, just trimming. I gave up even
though I loved the feel of them.
I'm mourning the Dolans, but have about 4 left of my fave shape: the
555. I hope Dolan rises again! If anyone has any 555's in good shape
that they don't use, I'm in the market.
Jennifer
On Dec 22, 2007, at 1:32 PM, Charles Hightower wrote:
> It's sad. I can't find any Dolan's for sale. I'm far to clumsy for
> a Bison.
> Afraid I'd drop it walking to the table. That does happen. My flaw,
> not the
> tools. Anyways, I saw these on Axners site. I may buy one. My tools
> are
> getting mighty thin. The handles of these on Axner are ugly as H,
> E, double
> hockeystick but who cares I guess. Just thought I'd share the link for
> those looking for good steel.
>
> http://www.axner.com/axner/tools/groovy-tools.php
>
> Charles Hightower
> www.hightowerpottery.com
> Evansville, IN
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change
> your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
*****************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
*****************************
____________________________________________________________________________
__
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
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melpots2@visi.com
Jennifer Boyer on sun 23 dec 07
I have been trimming for 35 years and I don't think it was my
technique that broke them. I think it was that they can't handle
being stored in a casual tool pile with other trimming tools. They
are fragile and need special handling, like being stored separately
in a protective sponge case, or box. Not all of us are up for that.
And I get a lot of life out a Dolan 555 between sharpenings. I'm
speaking up since I'm SURE this has happened to others and I want to
tell them they have company. Bisons are hands down the best trimming
tools out there, but some of us never buy a Porsche. We're Subaru
types.....
Happy Holidays folks!
Jennifer, who loves my Outback
On Dec 22, 2007, at 10:07 PM, Rod wrote:
>
>
> To break a tool while trimming I think could only happen if (a you
> are used
> to other trimming tools and habitually tap\knock the tool on
> something to
> get the trimmings off, or b) even less likely perhaps trimming too
> aggressively with the tool being held at an incorrect angle thereby
> causing
> undue stress. With the tool held at the correct angle, which
> differs from
> other tools; Dolan, etc. there should be no need to use any kind of
> undue
> force to have enormous amounts of clay removed.
>>
*****************************
Jennifer Boyer
Thistle Hill Pottery
Montpelier, VT
http://thistlehillpottery.com
*****************************
June Perry on sun 23 dec 07
One of my Bisons broke into three pieces as I was wiping it dry. I contacted
Phil and send it to him. He repaired it and told me that the problem was
that I keeping it hung on a nail in between use. Evidently that sets up some
kind of chemical reaction that can cause this kind of breakage.
I now store my 3 Bisons on a nail that I've wrapped with black electrical
tape and now problems after about 4 years.
Regards,
June
_http://www.shambhalapottery.com_ (http://www.shambhalapottery.com/)
_http://shambhalapottery.blogspot.com_
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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sodasaltfiring)
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Jeanette Harris on sun 23 dec 07
>I have been trimming for 35 years and I don't think it was my
>technique that broke them. I think it was that they can't handle
>being stored in a casual tool pile with other trimming tools. They
>are fragile and need special handling, like being stored separately
>in a protective sponge case, or box. Not all of us are up for that.
>And I get a lot of life out a Dolan 555 between sharpenings. I'm
>speaking up since I'm SURE this has happened to others and I want to
>tell them they have company. Bisons are hands down the best trimming
>tools out there, but some of us never buy a Porsche. We're Subaru
>types.....
>Happy Holidays folks!
>Jennifer, who loves my Outback
Here's a thought, Phil, What about putting a flat side on the handle
so the tool will not roll? With practice, a potter could learn to put
that part of the handle outside of their palm. One more step in your
process, though.
Another thought: How about a groove in the handle that will
accommodate a rubber o-ring?
Or potters could wrap the handle with the heavy rubber bands that the
Postal Service helps you accumulate?
Me? I can't find the pen I just put down, but I DO keep track of my Bisons!
They live in a thrown tumbler next to my wheel and I store them metal
side up so they will dry. (I always wipe them off first.)
--
http://jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.washingtonpotters.org/members/Jeanette_Harris/wpa_jeanette_harris.htm
Jeanette Harris
Washingzona
Michael Wendt on sun 23 dec 07
We have 2 Bisons.
A small round loop for delicate soft work.
A big, wide bottom hog which Phil made for
me per my drawings.
If you have dropping issues while trimming,
why not get out the sewing machine and
baste together a cloth catchment to capture
the trims and any tools that might drop.
Then the tool will land on a soft surface.
As an added bonus, cleanup around the
wheel would be a breeze. Just make
sure that any fabric devices you make
cannot become entangled in the rotating
wheel head.
Viva Las Vegas!
Right on Phil.
Regards,
Michael Wendt
Wendt Pottery
2729 Clearwater Ave.
Lewiston, Id 83501
U.S.A.
208-746-3724
wendtpot@lewiston.com
http://www.wendtpottery.com
http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
Andi Bauer on sun 23 dec 07
I have to reply to Jennifer about this. It takes no effort to set up a =
small plastic (tupperware works great) container that has a piece of =
foam inside and then TRAIN yourself not to place the Bison tools on the =
regular trimming tools pile. We've only broken one Bison tool in over 5 =
years, and that was due to user error...
Andi in Sequim, Washington on the north Olympic peninsula
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jeanette Harris=20
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=20
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: Groovy tools - Bison Tools
>I have been trimming for 35 years and I don't think it was my
>technique that broke them. I think it was that they can't handle
>being stored in a casual tool pile with other trimming tools. They
>are fragile and need special handling, like being stored separately
>in a protective sponge case, or box. Not all of us are up for that.
>And I get a lot of life out a Dolan 555 between sharpenings. I'm
>speaking up since I'm SURE this has happened to others and I want to
>tell them they have company. Bisons are hands down the best trimming
>tools out there, but some of us never buy a Porsche. We're Subaru
>types.....
>Happy Holidays folks!
>Jennifer, who loves my Outback
Here's a thought, Phil, What about putting a flat side on the handle
so the tool will not roll? With practice, a potter could learn to put
that part of the handle outside of their palm. One more step in your
process, though.
Another thought: How about a groove in the handle that will
accommodate a rubber o-ring?
Or potters could wrap the handle with the heavy rubber bands that the
Postal Service helps you accumulate?
Me? I can't find the pen I just put down, but I DO keep track of my =
Bisons!
They live in a thrown tumbler next to my wheel and I store them metal
side up so they will dry. (I always wipe them off first.)
--
=
http://jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com/t.com/>
=
http://www.washingtonpotters.org/members/Jeanette_Harris/wpa_jeanette_har=
ris.htmette_harris.htm>
Jeanette Harris
Washingzona
=
_________________________________________________________________________=
_____
Clayart members may send postings to: =
clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change =
your
subscription settings here: =
http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =
melpots2@visi.com
Robert Briggs on sun 23 dec 07
So, I'm curious? Has anyone purchased one of Axner's 'Groovy-tools' yet?
The ad claims they are easy to resharpen but doesn't really mention
anything about wear. The price is 14.50 with 3.95 handling! With
shipping that would be over twenty dollars - Hell, twice that and I've
got one of Phil's tools. I'd love to see a review of them somewhere. If
you want a quick look at them they're here:
http://www.axner.com/axner/tools/groovy-tools.php
Robert Briggs
www.corvusmoon.com
http://mudfire.podbean.com/feed
Jeanette Harris wrote:
>> I have been trimming for 35 years and I don't think it was my
>> technique that broke them. I think it was that they can't handle
>> being stored in a casual tool pile with other trimming tools. They
>> are fragile and need special handling, like being stored separately
>> in a protective sponge case, or box. Not all of us are up for that.
>> And I get a lot of life out a Dolan 555 between sharpenings. I'm
>> speaking up since I'm SURE this has happened to others and I want to
>> tell them they have company. Bisons are hands down the best trimming
>> tools out there, but some of us never buy a Porsche. We're Subaru
>> types.....
>> Happy Holidays folks!
>> Jennifer, who loves my Outback
>
> Here's a thought, Phil, What about putting a flat side on the handle
> so the tool will not roll? With practice, a potter could learn to put
> that part of the handle outside of their palm. One more step in your
> process, though.
>
> Another thought: How about a groove in the handle that will
> accommodate a rubber o-ring?
> Or potters could wrap the handle with the heavy rubber bands that the
> Postal Service helps you accumulate?
>
>
>
> Me? I can't find the pen I just put down, but I DO keep track of my
> Bisons!
>
> They live in a thrown tumbler next to my wheel and I store them metal
> side up so they will dry. (I always wipe them off first.)
>
>
>
> --
> http://jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com/
>
> http://www.washingtonpotters.org/members/Jeanette_Harris/wpa_jeanette_harris.htm
>
>
> Jeanette Harris
> Washingzona
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
>
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
> subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
Patty Kaliher on sun 23 dec 07
Considering the cost, I found it very easy to find a piece of bubble wrap
for my Bison. Wrapped in bubble wrap it survives transport to and from the
art center in my tool box.
Jeanette Harris on sun 23 dec 07
>Um, Hey Michael,
How about more about what this looks like? How do you place it near a
spinning wheel without whirling yourself up in a mess?
Oh, the mind pictures!
>If you have dropping issues while trimming,
>why not get out the sewing machine and
>baste together a cloth catchment to capture
>the trims and any tools that might drop.
>Then the tool will land on a soft surface.
>As an added bonus, cleanup around the
>wheel would be a breeze. Just make
>sure that any fabric devices you make
>cannot become entangled in the rotating
>wheel head.
>Viva Las Vegas!
>Right on Phil.
>Regards,
>Michael Wendt
>Wendt Pottery
>2729 Clearwater Ave.
>Lewiston, Id 83501
>U.S.A.
>208-746-3724
>wendtpot@lewiston.com
>http://www.wendtpottery.com
>http://UniquePorcelainDesigns.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
>subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
--
http://jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.washingtonpotters.org/members/Jeanette_Harris/wpa_jeanette_harris.htm
Jeanette Harris
Washingzona
Charles Hightower on mon 24 dec 07
OK. So I did a little research tonight on this whole cryogenic tempering
thing. Seems pretty straight forward. Here is the link. Makes sence these
"Groovy" tools may be worth a try. Wish they where just good looking!
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/membersonly/nov00/features/thebig/
thebig.html
Ivor and Olive Lewis on mon 24 dec 07
Dear Rod,
Now I haven't seen the Axner advertisement about these new "Super =
Tools". They are not featured in the back cover add in CM November.
Now I have said this before and I will repeat it.
There are ferrous alloys, "Steel" if you like, that will undergo phase =
changes when they are cooled below Zero deg C. When I was working in the =
Physical Metallurgy Lab my colleague who did the Isothermal work had to =
take specimens that had been heated to a point at which al of the =
compounds, particularly Iron Carbides, had been dissolved into a "Solid =
Solution". This is called=20
"Austenite". Like a mixture of salt and sugar mixed with crushed ice =
which warms, melts and the solids dissolve because all the crystalline =
structures are temporarily destroyed. Some alloys will show no change =
from Austenite if they are held at room temperature for years. But if =
they are placed in a constant temperature bath of Iso Pentane and frozen =
Carbon dioxide at minus 80 deg C they become unstable. Eventually the =
stress that builds up results in the precipitation of internetallic =
compounds, some of which are extremely hard. these new structure resists =
deformation or abrasion.
Perhaps you are searching modern journals. One name to look for is Dr. =
Alfred Wilm with reference to Aluminium Alloys. You might need to search =
the indexes of Acta Metallurgica from about 1900 to 1960.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
Lee on mon 24 dec 07
I need a sharp tool to scrap zogan inlay. I can shave
with my Japanese kana. The way to keep from having to get up to
sharpen them I learned from Fukuyan, who is in his 80s now: Just
bring a handful to your seat. They are cheap. You can make 100 of
them for the price of one fancy tool you can't sharpen yourself. You
keep them sharp with a file.
Otherwise, I like to trim at a state of hardness that
allows you to trim with a bamboo knife. Dull Kempers work well at this
softness too. My Japanese loop tools are NEVER sharpened. Using
them keep them at the necessary sharpness. My Jerry Horning tool is
similar. With soft trimming, the lines look less lathed and more like
throwing lines. At this stage, you can't trim with a sharp tool.
They grab and gouge.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Larry Nakanishi on mon 24 dec 07
--- Ivor and Olive Lewis
wrote:
Ivor,
I don't often say much since my wife Yukie is the
potter and I'm free manual labor. However, we went to
a workshop where Tom Coleman made a commented "I
conducted a workshop in Australia and was wondering
why since he learned more than I taught". He mention
that he saw the porcelain potters using tungsten
carbide tools to trim their pots after firing to
something like cone 020. They would turn the pots
(much like a lathe) to obtain much thinner walls than
normally possible. I was wondering if you know of
this and if similar tools are available.
Larry
Fremont, CA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 25 dec 07
Hi Steve, all...
I'd say...
"Yup"...
Even that all tangible Tools are 'Instruments'...for better or worse,
whether well or poorly suited to the tasks they are being asked to do, and,
whether well or poorly conceived, made, or apprehended...
And the sooner anyone who uses any sort of Tools starts thinking right about
that, the better for them, and, for their attitudes, insights, and
understandings...and, thence, for the results they may obtain, in electing
and useing whatever sort of Tool it is...and ultimately, even unto what
distal others present for use, to others,and why... who may or may not know
Shhhhhhhhh from 'Shine-Ola'...
Seems to me...
Lol...
&
Love,
Phil
l v
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve graber"
> very true -
>
> i consider tools somewhat like musical instruments. perhaps like an
> electric guitar vs unplugged. fiddle vs violin. the basic tool is just a
> tool. learn how to use it to make your work sing your way.
>
> Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc
> Claremont, California USA
> The Steve Tool - for awesum texture on pots!
> www.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com
John Sankey on tue 25 dec 07
Although still very much a novice, I mostly trim now in the
Chinese pattern: inside to outside. And, now that I'm adding
attachments also in the Chinese manner, I do final trimming hard.
When I contacted Phil 'Bison' about handles long enough to reach
the inside bottom of vases, he told me no one can trim that way!!
I have a small belt sander for woodworking that has a disc sander
on the side. I keep a fine carborundum disc on that - it sharpens
plain steel tools in a jiffy. But, sharpening with a single-cut
coarse file leaves a sawtooth edge that eliminates chattering
deep on the inside. Tony Clemmell mentioned this a month or so
ago: "This morning after our Chinese class I watched the trimmer
sharpening his trimming tools. Take a gander at the size of the
file he uses to get his steel tools sharp for dry trimming. This
big file leaves a serrated edge which cuts thru the clay without
the age old chattering problem that many people experience when
trimming porcelain."
Sounds to me as though Bison tools are like Macs: if you work the
way they want to work, they are unbeatable. But if you're an
inveterate experimenter like me, you need more flexible tools.
--
Include 'Byrd' in the subject line of your reply
to get through my spam filter.
Charlie Hightower on tue 25 dec 07
Bisons of coarse! Just ask Phil. He'll hook you up. I
don't have any as mentioned but will buy one maybe in
a couple of years when I have the money. I really am
that poor :(
Charles Hightower
www.hightowerpottery.com
Evansville, IN
--- Larry Nakanishi wrote:
> --- Ivor and Olive Lewis
> wrote:
> Ivor,
>
> I don't often say much since my wife Yukie is the
> potter and I'm free manual labor. However, we went
> to
> a workshop where Tom Coleman made a commented "I
> conducted a workshop in Australia and was wondering
> why since he learned more than I taught". He
> mention
> that he saw the porcelain potters using tungsten
> carbide tools to trim their pots after firing to
> something like cone 020. They would turn the pots
> (much like a lathe) to obtain much thinner walls
> than
> normally possible. I was wondering if you know of
> this and if similar tools are available.
>
> Larry
> Fremont, CA
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to:
> clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post
> messages, or change your
> subscription settings here:
> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be
> reached at melpots2@visi.com
>
Lee on tue 25 dec 07
On Dec 25, 2007 11:19 PM, John Sankey wrote:
>
> Sounds to me as though Bison tools are like Macs: if you work the
> way they want to work, they are unbeatable. But if you're an
> inveterate experimenter like me, you need more flexible tools.
You have a point: Before embracing a tool, look at the pots they make.
Many people conform their work to the tools they have on hand.
A craftsman finds or makes the tools needed to complete the craft.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
steve graber on tue 25 dec 07
very true -
i consider tools somewhat like musical instruments. perhaps like an electric guitar vs unplugged. fiddle vs violin. the basic tool is just a tool. learn how to use it to make your work sing your way.
Steve Graber, Graber's Pottery, Inc
Claremont, California USA
The Steve Tool - for awesum texture on pots!
www.graberspottery.com steve@graberspottery.com
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 6:54:49 AM
Subject: Re: Groovy tools - Bison Tools
On Dec 25, 2007 11:19 PM, John Sankey wrote:
>
> Sounds to me as though Bison tools are like Macs: if you work the
> way they want to work, they are unbeatable. But if you're an
> inveterate experimenter like me, you need more flexible tools.
You have a point: Before embracing a tool, look at the pots they make.
Many people conform their work to the tools they have on hand.
A craftsman finds or makes the tools needed to complete the craft.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, or change your
subscription settings here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Lee on wed 26 dec 07
On Dec 26, 2007 6:33 AM, steve graber wrote:
> very true -
>
> i consider tools somewhat like musical instruments. perhaps like an electric guitar vs >unplugged. fiddle vs violin. the basic tool is just a tool. learn how to use it to make your
>work sing your way.
I make pots, so I need certain tools. I don't make pots
to own tools.
I could pretty much do all my work in the 15th century.
Just have to give up the pyrometer and the electric light bulb
hanging over my wheel.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Ivor and Olive Lewis on fri 28 dec 07
Dear steve graber=20
Though this sounds like a good idea...<with a water stream. that works as a lubricant, and to keep dust near =
zero. also keeps the parts cool during the machining.>>.... it is only =
possible if the lathe on which such work is done is designed with that =
as an intention.
The big problem is the effect on metal parts of water. Excessive =
corrosion. To prevent this it is usual to add a corrosion inhibitor, =
often a soluble oil that remains on exposed metals surfaces when water =
evaporates. Having bisque soaked in oily water does not sound like a =
good solution to the dust problem.
Best regards,
Ivor
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