pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on tue 25 dec 07
Trimnming the inside bottoms of 'Tall Thin Vases'...
Hi John,
Well...lets see what we can examine about this, shall we? and lets do it
somewhat in depth, just so see what we can figure out about it -
You mention -
> Although still very much a novice, I mostly trim now in the
> Chinese pattern: inside to outside. And, now that I'm adding
> attachments also in the Chinese manner, I do final trimming hard.
> When I contacted Phil 'Bison' about handles long enough to reach
> the inside bottom of vases, he told me no one can trim that way!!
Okay...
Here next is what I had written in reply you when you had e-mailed me about
wanting
to be
ordering a Heavy
Duty "D" Loop on a Long Handle, for Trimming the inside Bottoms of 'Tall
Thin Vases' -
I said -
> None of the Loops I make would be suited for trying to Trim the "inside"
> of
> tall [ narrow ] forms...which is about impossible to do unless one is
> using a
> Scraping
> Tool set into a long Handle, and uses it once the Clay is
> 'dry'..otherwise,
> the cutter digs in and spoils the attempt more or less instantly.
> Is that what you meant?
You never replied, you never pursued the dialogue...you never asked anything
further, you never asked about any other Tools, you never asked me more
about 'Scrapers', you never "discussed" the subject with me in order to find
out more, or to tell me more about what you had in mind to accomplish, and,
so there it had ended, till now.
So, John...
Lets consider this -
The 'Heavy Duty Loop' Tools I make, which you had asked about getting a "D"
shape of, have outside "bevels"...thus, if such a Loop is on the end of a
LONG 'Handle', and you reach to the Bottom of a Tall Thin Vase...leaving
aside that it
would not even FIT through the Neck if it really WAS a 'Tall Thin
Vase", what will happen????
The Loop will not be able to contact the BOTTOM at an angle which will allow
the Cutting edge to 'cut'...
The 'heel' between the two bevels will merely rub the Bottom, and that is
all.
If you were to fumble ever so slightly while trying, and contacted the
inside 'side' of the "Tall, Narrow Vase", while trying to Trim the Bottom,
the
H-D 'D' Loop WOULD be able to Cut into the inside 'side' and probably would
do so unexpectedly, and faster than you could correct it, and, make a
problem more or less instantly...if or when or as soon as, it was at an
angle
to the side
which would allow it to 'cut'...and since you would not be able to control
it subtly enough, it would 'self- feed' more or less instantly, into the
side and "dig in"...
Can you 'see' this in your imagination?
Do you still wish to imply that YOU - or some Chinaman - could Trim the
inside "Bottom"
and inside sides of a
Tall, Thin Vase, with a double-outside-Bevel Loop Tool?
Or that I am silly or stupid to have tried or invited to explain and discuss
this with you
initially?
If I made an 'inside' bevel Loop of the same shape, which I could do, what
would happen then?
As far as I know, you would NOT be able to control how it is cutting, IN
ANY MANNER, whether Trimming "inside" or "outside", and, in human hands,
it would self-feed and dig-in instantly, especially if the Clay was mid
leather hard or
less than dry.
If you wish to assert otherwise, bet me some cash and we will see.
You could put a video of you doing it on YouTube...
And as for reaching 14 or 16 inches or something down into a very "narrow"
Vase, the leverage would be very much against you for being able to keep the
End of
the Tool, where it would be "Cutting", rigid enough to control how it is
Cutting, in order to prevent it from digging in or getting caught along
the sides of the Bottom you wanted to Trim.
How wide is the inside "Bottom" of a "Tall Thin Vase" John?
Three inches? Two and a half inches?
The old Chineese "Tall Thin Vases" I used to have, were about as that...
Even in dry Clay a 'sharp' inside-bevel Loop would be very difficult to
impossible to control if REACHING IN TO A TALL THIN VASE TO TRY AND TRIM
THE BOTTOM.
A "Scraper" will work...but that is a different kind of Tool from a 'Scorp'
or 'Loop Tool' made for "Cutting".
Tall Thin Vases when made of Wood, on a Lathe, are made using "Scrapers"
also, and NOT made by 'Cutting'.
Why for that matter, would not you not be better off learning to Throw ? -
so that whatever Trimming needs to be done, could be done on the OUTSIDE of
the 'Tall, Thin Vase'? Because the INSIDE would be formed correctly in the
first place?
Or, where, at most, one might need or wish merely to very slightly "scrape"
away
the fine throw-lines left inside, in order to effect a smooth and slick
surface for Glaze, in case anyone ever cranes their neck with a flashlight
and a Dental Mirror,
to try and peep inside?
Or, just what do you mean by the phrase "Tall Thin Vase"?
Do you mean something else which is NOT a "Tall Thin Vase"?
Please explain that in your reply, AS a preliminary which should be stated
clear enough to be
comprehended by any reader, before you even start to get into matters about
wishing to Trim the "inside
Bottom" of such a form...and before trying to make me look stupid for having
sent you a kind, clear, honest reply which you did zero follow up on but
then
pretend to quote from.
My opinion, is that one should Learn To Throw on the basis of at least SOME
understanding, first...and then, soon, along with that, to Learn to Trim.
And, this way, one may also learn to Throw with an intention for the kind of
Trimming one will do...so that both operations are complimentary, rather
than trying to 'save' badly made or clumsy forms by fussing tediously with
them to try and get some topical appearance or pretence of competence.
Okay...to continue -
I make many other kinds of Tools also, besides the 'Heavy Duty Loops' which
are one particular 'Series' among many 'Series', where you had specifically
inquired
about the "D" shape of that Heavy Duty Series, and, as far as I know,
various Scraping
Tools WOULD
work for this, but, you had asked me about a "H-D 'D' Loop" and I had
written you back
mentioning 'Scrapers' then you dropped the ball.
I make many sorts of 'Hook Tools'...and, having different kinds of bevels,
shapes, ends...
I make many sorts of Tools for Trimming "dry".
Some of my Tools are amenable to Trim low Bisque for that matter.
NONE of my Tools are intended for Trimming "wet"...
But...
Just how narrow IS the inside Neck of a 'Tall Thin Vase' John?
If say the Vase if 14 inches tall, 16 inches Tall...the inside Neck then
would be what, 3/4
of an inch? Half-an-inch???? one Inch?
Do tell...?
Details...???
How do you expect to even see IN something like this TO imagine you are
going to 'Trim' the inside Bottom?
As mentioned in my original missive to you - one COULD effect some
figurative 'Trimming' using a sharp "Scraper" ( WHICH
THEN IS "SCRAPING" and not 'Trimming' in any usual sense of the term...) or
more likely some series of Scrapers...on
long 'thin' Handles, to accomplish the same ends, and, I have made them for
people
who for whatever reason, felt they needed to "Scrape" the INSIDE or BOTTOMS
of
"TALL THIN FORMS", or of other sorts of forms, and I received positive
reports on the efficacy.
Years ago I would sometimes make an inside bevel Loop for someone who was
wanting to 'TRIM" the Inside-Bottoms of taller narrower forms, and each time
the results were a disaster, no matter how they tried, no matter what they
did, no matter the dampness or dryness of the Clay...and these people had
been very successful 'serious' Potters with decades of experience making and
Trimming complex and sophisticated forms...and, I said "Lol, I told you
so!!!!"
None of these were what one would call "Tall, Thin Vases"...but, were in
effect, much 'easier' forms to try that with.
If you would like to continue the conversation, please feel free to contact
me...I would be glad to continue and to see what we can do...and, there are
things we could do.
And, just so you know, a delicately 'ragged' edge left on soft Steel from a
coarse File has absolutely NOTHING to do with 'Chatter' in any way
whatever....not for getting Chatter, not for avoiding Chatter...
And, not for nothing...
Merry Christmas..!
Happy Trimming...
Best wishes,
Phil
Bison
Las Vegas
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Sankey"
> Although still very much a novice, I mostly trim now in the
> Chinese pattern: inside to outside. And, now that I'm adding
> attachments also in the Chinese manner, I do final trimming hard.
> When I contacted Phil 'Bison' about handles long enough to reach
> the inside bottom of vases, he told me no one can trim that way!!
>
> I have a small belt sander for woodworking that has a disc sander
> on the side. I keep a fine carborundum disc on that - it sharpens
> plain steel tools in a jiffy. But, sharpening with a single-cut
> coarse file leaves a sawtooth edge that eliminates chattering
> deep on the inside. Tony Clemmell mentioned this a month or so
> ago: "This morning after our Chinese class I watched the trimmer
> sharpening his trimming tools. Take a gander at the size of the
> file he uses to get his steel tools sharp for dry trimming. This
> big file leaves a serrated edge which cuts thru the clay without
> the age old chattering problem that many people experience when
> trimming porcelain."
>
> Sounds to me as though Bison tools are like Macs: if you work the
> way they want to work, they are unbeatable. But if you're an
> inveterate experimenter like me, you need more flexible tools.
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