John Boyd on wed 6 feb 08
While I cannot lend my voice to the same choir as John H regarding the
aesthetic evaluation of wood fired ceramics, I agree with Mel's point:
select a kiln for it's own merits, rather than forcing it to be what it is
not. It's the same thing as hooking up an eight ton trailer with a skid
steer loader in tow to a Ford F-150, when you need a Dodge 2500 turbo diesel
to do the job. As my Grandpappy says, "Get the right tool for the
project." If wood firing is going to be "flavor-of-the-month," at least do
the real deed a couple times to get the full appreciation and understanding
of the entire technical process that creates the aesthetic. I think an
important question many overlook is not "how do I do this" to a firing
process, but the "why would I CHOOSE to do this."
Sincerely,
Cas
James and Sherron Bowen on wed 6 feb 08
I wouldn't hesitate to pull that trailer with my F-150.
No one needs a turbo diesel in a pick up.
Jb
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Boyd"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: Wood kiln, what faux?
> While I cannot lend my voice to the same choir as John H regarding the
> aesthetic evaluation of wood fired ceramics, I agree with Mel's point:
> select a kiln for it's own merits, rather than forcing it to be what it is
> not. It's the same thing as hooking up an eight ton trailer with a skid
> steer loader in tow to a Ford F-150, when you need a Dodge 2500 turbo
> diesel
> to do the job.
Paul Lewing on wed 6 feb 08
On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:07 PM, John Boyd wrote:
I think an
important question many overlook is not "how do I do this" to a firing
process, but the "why would I CHOOSE to do this."
I'm not going to get into taking sides on this aesthetic issue, but
John makes an important point here.
It seems to me that one of the reasons potters choose a kind of kiln
is that every clay artist inevitably has a relationship with their
kiln that falls somewhere on a continuum from viewing your kiln as a
partner to viewing your kiln as a tool. Those who see the kiln as a
partner, as Tony so obviously does, are willing to cede a lot of the
decisions about what the piece looks like to the kiln. Others want
to control every aspect of how it looks. I'm one of those,
incidentally.
So if you're trying to duplicate wood firing effects in an electric
kiln, you're not only fighting the technical problems, you're
violating the whole relationship with the kiln. Wood, salt, raku,
saggars- they all rely on a large dose of randomness for their
appeal. Electric firing does not. You may be able to duplicate the
effects through a lot of painstaking effort, but the whole point has
been lost.
Paul Lewing
www.paullewingtile.com
Earl Brunner on thu 7 feb 08
Preface, this is in response to the arguements and topic as a whole, not you Paul.
This arguement and many of the other ones that have been put forward about being true to your kiln, make the assumption that everyone has access to all of the different types of kilns and that firing a certain type of kiln is a choice. Well, it might be a choice on a basic level, but NOT a choice on an economic level, or an environmental level or for some other reason. Not everyone can move out into the country where they can get away with vapor firing, or live in an area where it is practical to fire with wood. Work should stand on it's own merits, period.
You look at the peice, you form some kind of relationship with it, then MAYBE you ask yourself how they did it. A while back, when Tony was in China, he talked quite a bit about all of the fakes that were being made. He even said, if I remember right, that he really didn't care if a particular peice was original, authentic or not, he was going to accept the work on its own merits, or something to that affect.
What I hear is people that wood fire, complaining about someone making stuff or trying to make stuff that looks like theirs. Eliteist/exclusivism. Crap.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
----- Original Message ----
From: Paul Lewing
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2008 5:30:49 PM
Subject: Re: Wood kiln, what faux?
On Feb 6, 2008, at 1:07 PM, John Boyd wrote:
I think an
important question many overlook is not "how do I do this" to a firing
process, but the "why would I CHOOSE to do this."
I'm not going to get into taking sides on this aesthetic issue, but
John makes an important point here.
It seems to me that one of the reasons potters choose a kind of kiln
is that every clay artist inevitably has a relationship with their
kiln that falls somewhere on a continuum from viewing your kiln as a
partner to viewing your kiln as a tool. Those who see the kiln as a
partner, as Tony so obviously does, are willing to cede a lot of the
decisions about what the piece looks like to the kiln. Others want
to control every aspect of how it looks. I'm one of those,
incidentally.
So if you're trying to duplicate wood firing effects in an electric
kiln, you're not only fighting the technical problems, you're
violating the whole relationship with the kiln. Wood, salt, raku,
saggars- they all rely on a large dose of randomness for their
appeal. Electric firing does not. You may be able to duplicate the
effects through a lot of painstaking effort, but the whole point has
been lost.
Paul Lewing
www.paullewingtile.com
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
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John Boyd on thu 7 feb 08
How many times have you heard a person excuse their gas hog
> because they say they might need to "hook up an eight ton blah, blah,
> blah, blah..."? We have all heard of renting.
Lee, this is exactly my point. The topic of wood firing in an electric
kiln has simply opened up this particular aspect of why potters do what they
do for discussion. I am not going to stand here and tell people they must
do things a particular way, but I am strongly advocating that people THINK
about what they do and WHY they do it. I did not say I need the gas hog
because I MIGHT have an occasion to use it. If I only made wood fired pots
on occasion I would "rent" a friend's kiln.
I say I need a wood kiln because it is the choice I have made, it is
the right tool for my pots and I fire with it all the time. I am like the
excavation company owner who pulls an eight ton trailer loaded with 5 tons
of Bobcat and equipment to the site everyday. I need the tool because my
work requires it. I'm not going to drive around the Capitol Beltway 495 at
60 miles per hour with that kind of a load on an F-150. I've tried it, you
will either fishtail all over the road when the weight picks the front end
of your truck off the ground, or you will burn up your transmission trying
to climb a steep hill.
If you want to make pots in a kiln fueled by wood for the aesthetics it
provides, how will an electrically heated kiln help you? If you just want
pots with ash glazes on them, or if you want to find a new glaze for
electric firings then great! I have done the same; I think an electric kiln
is a good choice for such work. If you just want to "get a taste" then I
fully advocate your idea of "renting" a kiln to experiment with the
aesthetic of wood firing. If you want to spend your time selecting clays,
blending them for pyrochromatic effects and fired quality, finding wood and
stacking it after splitting it, spending the time to fire load after load of
pots because the whole process is part of your aesthetic, and the firing
completes the sum of your vessels, then I think you should look at a wood
kiln as your primary firing tool.
Sincerely,
Cas
Lee on thu 7 feb 08
On Feb 7, 2008 6:07 AM, John Boyd wrote:
> not. It's the same thing as hooking up an eight ton trailer with a skid
> steer loader in tow to a Ford F-150, when you need a Dodge 2500 turbo diesel
> to do the job.
How many times have you heard a person excuse their gas hog
because they say they might need to "hook up an eight ton blah, blah,
blah, blah..."? We have all heard of renting.
There is no reason that cone 6 electric has to all look
like commercial glassy glazes. Burch's glazes really add to the cone
6 pallet.
But, it is far easier when talking to folks who are
trouble by pushing bounderies, to letTHEM say, "Hey, that looks like
a shino" rather than tell them it is a "electric Shino" and then
have them pull out their "glaze bible" and quote you verse and chapter
why it isn't.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Paul Lewing on thu 7 feb 08
On Feb 7, 2008, at 7:11 AM, Earl Brunner wrote:
This arguement and many of the other ones that have been put forward
about being true to your kiln, make the assumption that everyone has
access to all of the different types of kilns and that firing a
certain type of kiln is a choice.
A point well taken, Earl. I was assuming that one would do whatever
it took to make work that was true to itself and the maker. You're
right- many do not have those options.
Paul Lewing
www.paullewingtile.com
Marta Matray on thu 7 feb 08
you know, reading about all these arguments about
woodfired look, or what kiln is the best, or
you are not supposed to try to make an electric
fired pot to look like a woodfired one...
it brings back a nice memory of our glaze addict
claybud, ababi. he worked in his pottery in israel,
had an electric kiln, taught pottery to his beduhin
women students - and was doing all those glaze tests,
yes, in his electric kiln!- and shared all his tests
recipes and pictures on clayart. i was wondering if
we still have those tests recipes and pictures?
that was some years ago. for those who didnt know him:
ababi died, so i dont know if his website is still
out there??? anyone knows?
i just hope somewhere someone saved the fruits of all
his hard work.
and for those who want a woodfired look or a reduction
fired look but have "only" an electric kiln: go for it!
you work hard to get that glaze, i'd say almost as hard,
that stocking the wood kiln for 10 days or so :0)!!!
marta
http://martamatray.blogspot.com/
John Post on thu 7 feb 08
If I was pursuing a warm toasty look in an electric kiln, I would do the
following...
Find a source of woodash and local clay. Natural materials are less
refined than many of the chemicals we get from ceramics suppliers. (I
got the idea of using local materials from Lee Love.) They also are
variable from batch to batch and pot to pot. I get a nice toasty
mottled brown glaze from 80% local Michigan clay and 20% unwashed wood ash.
I have tried some glazes from Edouard's page at
http://cone4ashglazes.blogspot.com/2007/08/10_10.html
He fired at cone 4, but I tried a few at cone 6 and they worked for me.
Other materials that may prove useful are Redart clay and Alberta slip.
Adding woodash to these materials in line blends can create interesting
glazes. So can subbing woodash in for the whiting in a glaze. You
could also try some volcanic ash. You basically are trying to use
materials that are going to create some variability.
For colorants you can try the spectrum of different red iron oxides and
rutiles available from different suppliers. I would also use manganese
dioxide (read about the health hazards inherent in working with
manganese before deciding to work with it).
Since the electric kiln is basically a big toaster, you have to find a
way to create variability with the materials you are using and the
methods you use when decorating. I met a potter who would glaze a pot
in one color, apply a wax over the entire pot and then redip in another
color. The second glaze would stick in some of the recesses in the
layer of wax. When the pot was fired it came out with a speckly look
that was reminiscent of salt fired wares. If you knew about pots, you
knew it wasn't salt fired pottery, but the decorative effect was nice.
Electric kilns have been around probably less than 100 years. Has the
look of a pot from an electric kiln been so well defined in that time
that there is no room for more exploration? I don't think so.
The way electric kilns are fired has changed a lot in the last decade
too. With computer controllers and controlled cooling we are seeing
work that is not just shiny and glossy. There are more decisions that
go into firing an electric kiln now. I have been experimenting with
different cooling and heating cycles for at least 10 years. I wouldn't
even consider firing glazes in an electric kiln without a controller. I
use my kiln sitter kiln for bisque only.
I think there would have been a lot less commotion if you had said that
you were looking to create warm toasty looking pots with visual texture
in an electric kiln. I am glad you didn't say it that way though, as it
has been interesting to read all the comments on this issue.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
http://www.johnpost.us
http://www.wemakeart.org
Earl Brunner on thu 7 feb 08
Hummm, Lee, I checked, I don't think I said that, what I said was the pots, however they are made/fired etc. should stand on their own merits. HOW they were made/fired is secondary. Don't take one sentence out of context. Try to hear what I'm saying not just what you want to hear.
Earl Brunner
Las Vegas, NV
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2008 5:01:27 PM
Subject: Re: Wood kiln, what faux?
On Feb 8, 2008 12:11 AM, Earl Brunner wrote:
> What I hear is people that wood fire, complaining about someone making stuff or
>trying to make stuff that looks like theirs. Eliteist/exclusivism. Crap.
Earl, why do you ignore folks like my self supporting electric
fire experimentation?
In doing so, you are promoting the opposite of elitism:
Liliputianism. The refusal of acknowledging excellence because you
don't want to hurt the feelings of the mediocre.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
Lee on fri 8 feb 08
On Feb 8, 2008 11:31 AM, Earl Brunner wrote:
> Hummm, Lee, I checked, I don't think I said that,
Here is exactly what you said:
>What I hear is people that wood fire, complaining about someone making stuff
>or trying to make stuff that looks like theirs. Eliteist/exclusivism. Crap.
It is not what I heard.
>what I said was the pots, however they are made/fired etc. should
stand on their
>own merits. HOW they were made/fired is secondary.
This is what I have been supporting, along with not trying to
pass one thing off for another. You come off much better if you let
that woodfirer say, "Is that a wood fired pot?" and then you can
say, "Nope, fired it in my electric kiln." I have had experience
with exactly things, finding out that the potter actually fired the
pot in a sagger with charcoal, only to get a woodfired looking pot a
woodfirer would kill for.
>Try to hear what I'm saying not just what you want to hear.
Or, "Hear what I mean, not what I say!" ;^)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Jean Lehman on fri 8 feb 08
> >Try to hear what I'm saying not just what you want to hear.
>
>Or, "Hear what I mean, not what I say!" ;^)
I have to laugh. That was the topic of my masters thesis many moons ago.
"Did you hear what I thought I said?" It was in education, but it is
true anywhere, and especially true when being juried or critiqued.
People hear and remember the negatives as they perceive them.
Jean,
who never got around to handing in the final thesis, opting instead
to become a potter in 1976.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ->
Jean Lehman,
NOTE:
jlehman73@earthlink is the best way to reach me.
[jlehman733 is for ClayArt only.]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ->
The 16th Annual Strictly Functional Pottery National will be
juried by Linda Arbuckle. Applications were due Jan 10, 2008.
The exhibit is in Lancaster, PA April 18-May 18, and then
in Wayne, PA.the following month.
The 2004 through 2007 SFPN exhibitions may be seen at
http://www.strictlyfunctionalpotterynational.net
Lee on fri 8 feb 08
On Feb 8, 2008 12:11 AM, Earl Brunner wrote:
> What I hear is people that wood fire, complaining about someone making stuff or
>trying to make stuff that looks like theirs. Eliteist/exclusivism. Crap.
Earl, why do you ignore folks like my self supporting electric
fire experimentation?
In doing so, you are promoting the opposite of elitism:
Liliputianism. The refusal of acknowledging excellence because you
don't want to hurt the feelings of the mediocre.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Lee on sat 9 feb 08
On Feb 9, 2008 1:40 AM, Jean Lehman wrote:
> I have to laugh. That was the topic of my masters thesis many moons ago.
>
> "Did you hear what I thought I said?" It was in education, but it is
> true anywhere, and especially true when being juried or critiqued.
> People hear and remember the negatives as they perceive them.
Haha!
It is related to the opposite effect of how people
remember "The good old days" of their youth. Mostly, we remember
the good stuff. Partly, what made it the good old days, was our
being youth and not having the weight of responsibilities we have
today.
When I started writing about my apprenticeship experiences,
I hesitated at first, because so much of what I experienced was
imagined by me, because my Japanese is so minimal and I had to intuit
what was being said. So I almost decided not to write because of
this. But then, I thought about our life experiences in general:
Even in our native language, our experiences are colored by our
perceptions and may not have a good correlation to actual reality.
Seeing that this is so, I thought it would be okay to write about my
experiences, as long as I explained the subjective nature of my
experience.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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