mel jacobson on fri 8 feb 08
i think through this discussion about wood firing, electric
comparisons...one very important theme emerges.
own your own kiln.
be in charge of your kiln.
make sure you know your kiln and
are not fearful of it. and be proud of your work.
i have been a very very strong advocate
of women and men owning and firing their own kilns.
this support comes from years of watching and listening
to macho/assholes/teachers of clay who thought they
were so damn smart because they could fire in fuel kilns,
and of course women were the brunt of their macho crap.
it sickens me to this day. i know names and places...i hate
them...with passion. sexist to the core.
i got the same sort of attitude when teaching at an art center.
`don't encourage women and men to buy kilns...we need the
revinue`....in other words...don't teach, make sure we make them
dependant on our kilns. don't ever teach them to make a studio at
home...ever.
any time i talk of these issues in an open forum i am sure
to get some real hard flak...some are very sensitive about
talking about it. they get angry...and, often at me.
but, i know what i have observed. and, like racial issues,
it is not pleasant.
it is getting better, every day.
more and more folks are buying into electric firing. ron and john
deserve a great deal of the credit. same for pmi and claytimes.
a surge in photos and ideas for electric firing. it now has an identity.
but that nagging denial of the quality of electric firing still hangs
on. the apology, the negative feelings that they are not `good enough`.
in many ways...john and mel do not worry about wood firing. it is not
about the pots/aesthetics...it is about the swaggering, macho crap from some
potters that fire with wood. and, there is no reason for it. make what you
want, be pleased with it...show it...but, do not make it the final answer.
paul herman's post this morning was very thoughtful. a real gentleman's
approach to the issue. david hendley has the same attitude.
quiet voice/loud voice. a great metaphor.
i want potters, young and old, men and women to feel confident about
their kiln, about their work. never feel envy because how they fire
is not `good enough`.
i love to remind folks that all the pots fired in china back thousands
of years were fired with wood. i just finished a five years study
with joe koons dealing with wood fired sung pots.
what they wanted was clean, well made pots that could be used
for every day. saggers...think saggers. no snot,no crud, no ash.
think ming....saggers....clear porcelain/celedon. no snot. they worked like mad
to get clean, beautiful pots. they did not want...`the wood fired look.`
it was almost like electric fired pots of today.
interesting.
mel
from minnetonka:
website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart site:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
vpitelka on fri 8 feb 08
Mel wrote:
"in many ways...john and mel do not worry about wood firing. it is not
about the pots/aesthetics...it is about the swaggering, macho crap from some
potters that fire with wood. and, there is no reason for it. make what you
want, be pleased with it...show it...but, do not make it the final answer."
Dear Mel -
There has been swaggering, macho crap from so many segments of art and craft
whenever any individual or group thought they were doing something new or
better than whatever or whoever came before. It is part of the evolution of
art and craft. It always has been, and it always will be. So, it's not
very sensible or productive to speak of those who are enthusiastic about
wood firing as "elitist," as some people have done on this list. It is all
talk, loud talk to try to bring down the wood firers, and it is a fool's
mission. The really committed wood firers like Paul Herman, Tony Clennell
and so many others have no big ego about it because they are too busy making
pots and loving what they are doing.
The blanket condemnation of an entire category of ceramics with narrow
generalizations only reflects negatively on the person who casts such
aspersions. There's no gain in it at all.
Most of the above does not apply to you, Mel. I just used your statement as
a reference to say something I needed to say.
Best wishes -
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Lee on sat 9 feb 08
On Feb 9, 2008 10:26 AM, vpitelka wrote:
>The blanket condemnation of an entire category of ceramics with narrow
>generalizations only reflects negatively on the person who casts such
aspersions. There's no gain in it at all.
It is simple pre-judging or prejudice.
I have seen no swaggering by wood firers here.
Primarily, what you are hearing is folks who fire in multiple types of
firing standing up for one of the methods they use. Just because
you use a screw driver doesn't mean you can't use a hammer too.
For some reason folks sometimes think it is okay to
prejudge something just because it is more difficult to do. This is
lowest common denominator democracy.
I prefer bootstrap democracy, where everyone is pulled up to
the highest level.
Believe in what you do. Believe in your work. Believe in
yourself. Then, you won't find the work of others threatening.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Fred Parker on sat 9 feb 08
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:26:38 -0600, vpitelka wrote:
SNIP
>Dear Mel -
>There has been swaggering, macho crap from so many segments of art and
craft
>whenever any individual or group thought they were doing something new or
>better than whatever or whoever came before. It is part of the evolution
of
>art and craft. It always has been, and it always will be. So, it's not
>very sensible or productive to speak of those who are enthusiastic about
>wood firing as "elitist," as some people have done on this list.
Hey, Vince:
Nice try, and I know it's important for you to have the last word, but
here's an observation from someone who might have a bit more of an
objective view than you, based simply on our relatively degrees of
immersion in ceramics: When I began working with clay (yes, in the recent
past) I didn't even know wood-fired kilns existed! Thought you had to
plug 'em all into a wall socket... In the interim, I have never met,
spoken with nor read the writings of those who do wood firing who conveyed
a shred of arrogance (well, maybe one or two have been a little pompous
but I don't think it was because of their exposure to wood smoke).
However, as I sit up at 3:30 AM futzing with the controls on my old burned-
out manual Skutt 1027 trying to maintain some semblance of control over
its glaze results, I can't help pondering other firing methods, a process
that always classifies them in some order or other. Out of that comes the
following perceptions gleaned from all the conversations, readings and
other exposures I have had on the subject:
1) My old Skutt is the Chevy -- the "Volkswagen" of my fellow Americans.
I am the nameless laborer John Steinbeck wrote about in "The Grapes of
Wrath." There are lots of us out here.
2) People with gas kilns started out like me, and then through a
combination of factors that included purpose, resources and local
ordinances moved up the ladder. Now they have access to molecular
processes like reduction and the controls to exploit them. Most of them
still remember their humble roots. SOme might even know others who still
drive old Chevys...
3) The woodfirers come from different stock. They belong to exclusive
clubs I cannot enter and they are allowed into upscale galleries du jour
who are clearly enamoured of the "look du jour" which comes from
woodfiring. They know this, and like the face-lifted club member teeing
off with the tennis sweater draped loosely over his shoulders to ward off
the early morning chill of the first hole, caddy standing obiediently by
at the proper distance, they involuntarily exude just a passing whiff of
elitism.
To repeat... This just evolved from the background. Don't know a single,
individual elitist potter.
Oh. And just one more thing... Since when is woodfiring "...new or
better than whatever or whoever came before"? I missed that one.
Have fun...
Fred Parker
Lee on sun 10 feb 08
On Feb 10, 2008 2:06 AM, Fred Parker wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:26:38 -0600, vpitelka wrote:
> Don't know a single,
> individual elitist potter.
Me neither. Wood firing tends to appeal to naturally democratic
folks, especially the big kilns that take a community to fire.
> Oh. And just one more thing... Since when is woodfiring "...new or
> better than whatever or whoever came before"? I missed that one.
I miss where anybody said it was better. All of us
supporting diversity on the subject fire in all the mediums. When
you have the chance to play with fire you will have some actual way to
compare.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
Donna Kat on mon 11 feb 08
I think I'm in love.....
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:54:01 -0600, mel jacobson wrote:
>i think through this discussion about wood firing, electric
>comparisons...one very important theme emerges.
>
>own your own kiln.
>be in charge of your kiln.
>make sure you know your kiln and
>are not fearful of it. and be proud of your work.
>
>i have been a very very strong advocate
>of women and men owning and firing their own kilns.
>
>this support comes from years of watching and listening
>to macho/assholes/teachers of clay who thought they
>were so damn smart because they could fire in fuel kilns,
>and of course women were the brunt of their macho crap.
>it sickens me to this day. i know names and places...i hate
>them...with passion. sexist to the core.
>
>i got the same sort of attitude when teaching at an art center.
>`don't encourage women and men to buy kilns...we need the
>revinue`....in other words...don't teach, make sure we make them
>dependant on our kilns. don't ever teach them to make a studio at
>home...ever.
>
>any time i talk of these issues in an open forum i am sure
>to get some real hard flak...some are very sensitive about
>talking about it. they get angry...and, often at me.
>but, i know what i have observed. and, like racial issues,
>it is not pleasant.
>
> it is getting better, every day.
>more and more folks are buying into electric firing. ron and john
>deserve a great deal of the credit. same for pmi and claytimes.
>a surge in photos and ideas for electric firing. it now has an identity.
>but that nagging denial of the quality of electric firing still hangs
>on. the apology, the negative feelings that they are not `good enough`.
>
>in many ways...john and mel do not worry about wood firing. it is not
>about the pots/aesthetics...it is about the swaggering, macho crap from
some
>potters that fire with wood. and, there is no reason for it. make what
you
>want, be pleased with it...show it...but, do not make it the final answer.
>
>paul herman's post this morning was very thoughtful. a real gentleman's
>approach to the issue. david hendley has the same attitude.
>quiet voice/loud voice. a great metaphor.
>
>i want potters, young and old, men and women to feel confident about
>their kiln, about their work. never feel envy because how they fire
>is not `good enough`.
>
>i love to remind folks that all the pots fired in china back thousands
>of years were fired with wood. i just finished a five years study
>with joe koons dealing with wood fired sung pots.
>
>what they wanted was clean, well made pots that could be used
>for every day. saggers...think saggers. no snot,no crud, no ash.
>think ming....saggers....clear porcelain/celedon. no snot. they worked
like mad
>to get clean, beautiful pots. they did not want...`the wood fired look.`
>it was almost like electric fired pots of today.
>interesting.
>mel
>
>
>
>from minnetonka:
>website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
>clayart site:
>http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
____
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
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>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
melpots2@visi.com
Lee on tue 12 feb 08
On Feb 12, 2008 8:13 AM, Donna Kat wrote:
> I think I'm in love.....
*Gack!* ;^)
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:54:01 -0600, mel jacobson wrote:
> >what they wanted was clean, well made pots that could be used
> >for every day. saggers...think saggers. no snot,no crud, no ash.
> >think ming....saggers....clear porcelain/celedon. no snot. they worked
I really like Sung forms. And in woodfire, I am drawn
to work that is nice to touch. This goes back to the work of
Shimaoka, and the Minnesota potters who fire climbing kilns and
sometimes ad soda for bright colors. Even though I don't do much of
the rugged work, I appreciate this kind of work done by others. I
especially find the colorful work done combine with water introduction
exciting.
That being said:
Folks really need to educate themselves to get the broad
picture and understand where our influences come from. We really
confuse history if we don't.
I saw an excellent Shino show at the Idemitsu in Tokyo.
At the end of the show, there was a display of old Raku and an essay
about how the discovery of Raku, which at the time was not glossy, but
rugged looking, helped folks reexamine the pots of Shigaraki, Bizen,
Tokonome , Echizen, and other rugged firing stoneware kilns, that
were primarily used to make storage jars.
Sen No RIkyu helped folks look at these rugged storage
jar makers and see that things like vases, water jars and other items
might be fired in them, to bring a little bit of nature into the tea
room. Before Rikyu, unglazed work was not specifically fired for the
tearoom, though some "found" items were used from these kilns.
This aesthetic is very unique on the planet and Sen No
Rikyu and his students were the folks that brought it to the world.
Most of the Japanese pots we appreciate from Japan were brought to
our attention, as well as the Ido and Chosen pots, by these guys.
In Japan, these tea men were responsible for the appreciation of:
unglazes teaware from Shigaraki/Bizen/Tokonome/etc, raku, shino, oribe
and Seto Guro.
This aesthetic is not always easy for people to understand at
first glance, unlike the pretty glazes of Sung China. But you can
learn if you want to. There is a tiny book selling for $9.95 that is
very good at giving an introduction:
A Tractate on Japanese Aesthetics (Paperback)
by Donald Richie (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Tractate-Japanese-Aesthetics-Donald-Richie/dp/1933330236/
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
MT Hannigan on tue 12 feb 08
Lee,
There's another wonderful and inspiring little paperback, Wabi Sabi
for Artists, Designers, Poets & Philosophers by Leonard Koren. Have
you ever read it? It is less a book on pottery than it is a
description of the feeling and philosophy of this unique Japanese
aesthetic.
Koren describes the wabi sabi universe:
"Things are either devolving toward of evolving from, nothingness.
Truth comes form the observation of nature.
'Greatness' exists in the inconspicuous and overlooked details.
Beauty can be coaxed out of ugliness.
Acceptance of the inevitable.
Appreciation of the cosmic order.
Get rid of all that is unnecessary.
Focus on the intrinsic and ignore material hierarchy."
Rikyu's unpretentious, unassuming, nature-based aesthetic--sometimes
referred to as "wabi sabi"--stood in stark contrast to that of his
mentor, Hideyoshi, whose idea of beauty was "the ultimate expression
of Chinese gorgeousness: the gold-leafed tearoom."
On another note,
Gack!*??? I say, Donna, get in line! XXOO Mel!!
Teri Hannigan
On Feb 11, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Lee wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2008 8:13 AM, Donna Kat wrote:
>> I think I'm in love.....
>
> *Gack!* ;^)
>
mark Cortright on tue 12 feb 08
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:54:01 -0600, mel jacobson wrote:
>own your own kiln.
>be in charge of your kiln.
>make sure you know your kiln and
>are not fearful of it. and be proud of your work.
>
Mel-I agree whole heartedly
The other statements you said I have to say I agree with to. But the above gets to the heart of it
Mark Cortright
www.liscomhillpottery.com
Lee on wed 13 feb 08
On 2/12/08, MT Hannigan wrote:
> Koren describes the wabi sabi universe:
>
> "Things are either devolving toward of evolving from, nothingness.
> Truth comes form the observation of nature.
> 'Greatness' exists in the inconspicuous and overlooked details.
> Beauty can be coaxed out of ugliness.
> Acceptance of the inevitable.
> Appreciation of the cosmic order.
> Get rid of all that is unnecessary.
> Focus on the intrinsic and ignore material hierarchy."
Nice poem. Did Leonard write it or quote it?
The problems with books like these, is that they make us think we
got it because we read it and understand intellectually.
Donald Richie explains that the main problem we have in the
West with the tea aesthetic, is that it is intuitive, but we usually
approach it intellectually/academically.
He explains, that while the aesthetics are intuitive, they
are never approached casually, but usually take long and arduous
apprenticeships. The function of the training is not only to learn
skills, but also to empty the student, creating a fertile ground for
intuitive discovery.
Here is a calligraphy bye Shiko Munakata, Hamada's
woodblock printer friend. I think it illustrates the need to balance
understandings of these things:
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
I will write about this more later.
Speaking of the casualties of the casual....
> Gack!*??? I say, Donna, get in line! XXOO Mel!!
You ladies are way too easy! ;^) Having the last name Love, I
have always been reluctant to use the expression casually. Someone
saying they "Love ice cream" is nails to a blackboard. Or like when
Mel authoritatively comments on "Zen Crap" or "Zen Bullsh**. ;^)
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
MT Hannigan on wed 13 feb 08
>> Koren describes the wabi sabi universe:
>>
>> "Things are either devolving toward of evolving from, nothingness.
>> Truth comes form the observation of nature.
>> 'Greatness' exists in the inconspicuous and overlooked details.
>> Beauty can be coaxed out of ugliness.
>> Acceptance of the inevitable.
>> Appreciation of the cosmic order.
>> Get rid of all that is unnecessary.
>> Focus on the intrinsic and ignore material hierarchy."
>
> Nice poem. Did Leonard write it or quote it?
Not a poem that I know of--more of a list of qualities. It's a
direct quote from the book, not footnoted or cited.
> The problems with books like these, is that they make us think we
> got it because we read it and understand intellectually.
>
> Donald Richie explains that the main problem we have in the
> West with the tea aesthetic, is that it is intuitive, but we usually
> approach it intellectually/academically.
>
> He explains, that while the aesthetics are intuitive, they
> are never approached casually, but usually take long and arduous
> apprenticeships. The function of the training is not only to learn
> skills, but also to empty the student, creating a fertile ground for
> intuitive discovery.
>
This is what I got from Koren's book, too. Koren mentions in his
book that the whole "wabi-sabi" of cha-no-yu begun by Rikyu became
formalized and regimented to the extreme after his death. To me, the
purpose of ritual and ceremony are to bring awareness and
consciousness to one's actions, not to blindly and rigidly follow.
Rigid adherence to Rikyu's aesthetic seemed to run contrary to his
original intention. And I agree with you about intuition and
discipline. Intuition is about trusting some part of ourselves that
knows. Discipline is about learning how to listen to that part of
ourselves, to plug into it. Just because the calendar says it's
spring, doesn't mean that spring has begun and we can start throwing
seeds all over the place. Nature doesn't have a set schedule.
Richie's book sounds good, too--I'm gonna check it out.
> You ladies are way too easy! ;^)
Golly, Lee, we wuz jest funin'... I'm guessing you're under 35 if you
don't know that chivalry is a dying art, highly prized by many women
and rewarded accordingly. ;-)
> Having the last name Love, I
> have always been reluctant to use the expression casually.
Hey, I thought "Love" was your stage name ... I should have
known that someone who comes across (on this forum, at least) so
ernest and heartfelt as you do would not have chosen "Love" as a last
name!
Teri Hannigan
Lee on fri 15 feb 08
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 8:17 AM, MT Hannigan wrote:
"Things are either devolving toward of evolving from, nothingness.
Truth comes form the observation of nature.
'Greatness' exists in the inconspicuous and overlooked details.
Beauty can be coaxed out of ugliness.
Acceptance of the inevitable.
Appreciation of the cosmic order.
Get rid of all that is unnecessary.
Focus on the intrinsic and ignore material hierarchy."
> Not a poem that I know of--more of a list of qualities. It's a
> direct quote from the book, not footnoted or cited.
It reads like a poem. I am guessing it is inspired by a Chinese poem.
> This is what I got from Koren's book, too. Koren mentions in his
> book that the whole "wabi-sabi" of cha-no-yu begun by Rikyu became
> formalized and regimented to the extreme after his death. To me, the
> purpose of ritual and ceremony are to bring awareness and
> consciousness to one's actions, not to blindly and rigidly follow.
In training, you have to "rigidly follow." But once you have
mastered it, then you can make something new. "The zen saying goe:
"You build a boat to cross the river, but once you are on the other
side of the river, you do not carry the boat on your back." Hamada
said, the craftsman completely digests the traditional and then
something new comes out of his finger tips. On your own, you can
follow your own way. But if you have students, then you have to get
back to the basics again, so the student can learn them.
> Rigid adherence to Rikyu's aesthetic seemed to run contrary to his
> original intention. And I agree with you about intuition and
> discipline.
I have met a couple tea Masters in the last year and a half. In
tea, the host is completely concerned with the guest's needs and the
guest is completely concerned with the host's needs. I felt this
emanating from these tea masters and have only experienced the same
level of care for the guest in Zen Masters and Geisha.
> Intuition is about trusting some part of ourselves that
> knows. Discipline is about learning how to listen to that part of
> ourselves, to plug into it. Just because the calendar says it's
> spring, doesn't mean that spring has begun and we can start throwing
> seeds all over the place. Nature doesn't have a set schedule.
Neither do Mashiko farmers. They don't take Sundays off
because they work on Son days. They take rainy days off (well
actually, they do inside chores on rainy days. Our schedule was
effected by the weather and seasons during my apprenticeship. We
picked Ume plums, plugged new shitake logs and many other farm and
garden chores.)
> Golly, Lee, we wuz jest funin'... I'm guessing you're under 35 if you
> don't know that chivalry is a dying art, highly prized by many women
> and rewarded accordingly. ;-)
I am 54 and know Chivalry/Bushido very well. If you look
at my Meyer's Briggs, the INFP is sometimes called the Galahad
personality. I But I don't confuse Paternalism with Chivalry.
I was in the first training company at Fort Knox
Kentucky, that had men and women training in the same Company. It was
a ROTC catchup boot camp. The women made up the Fifth platoon.
I was the oldest person in the 1st platoon, so I was made the first
training lieutenant during our first week. The women bunked on the
top floor of the building, but were in one of the 4 platoons for
training during the day. We were also mixed during bivuoac,
segregated tents
. All of the young men treated the women in our company
like our sisters, with respect and chivalry. Nobody from another
paltoon dared to treat them otherwise But the older folks training
us did not. The Drill Sargent carried the radio for one of the
woman, (a huge unit like a back pack), while the other non-coms slept
with them. We knew better, but our trainers were of a different
time and did not get it.
> Hey, I thought "Love" was your stage name ... I should have
> known that someone who comes across (on this forum, at least) so
> ernest and heartfelt as you do would not have chosen "Love" as a last
> name!
It comes from County Kerry Ireland. But is a popular surname in
Detroit, where I grew up.
--
Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
"Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
--Sen No Rikyu
"Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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