joyce on thu 27 mar 08
Vince said:
"It is only for Native
Americans to make Native American art, with the exception of someone like
Michael Wisner who has become a true expert on the imagery and/or
iconography and the associated culture and religion."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, as I usually do, I agree with him. However, here in our section of the
desert, we have our own petroglyph series which are protected since many
are on Federal lands. We have the petroglyphs and many of us have made
numerous annual
treks to see them since one can't just decide to ride out and take a look,
but must take advantage of the Matarango Museum's guided tours.
So...... we have the Native American inspiration available, which has become
part of our local culture and is treated with great respect and appreciation.
AND we have quite a few local potters but very few Native American potters,
although we do have Native Americans making extraordinary baskets and
jewelry.
In fact, we have a rather large Native American population (OR they have a
rather large non-Native American population, whichever came first ....... and
I know who fits there) ..... which contributes
much to our local performing events; although we all do seem to meld together
most of the year, those Events are wonderful and add much to our local
culture.
This is background simply to say that several of our non-NA potters have become
prolific in producing wonderful work with a petroglyph theme. It seems to me
that this work, too, fits under the category of having become somewhat expert
and gives these potters ..... not carte blanche....... but some reason to make
discretionary use of the Petroglyph theme.
What say you, Kath Nez, my friend who makes incredible contemporary casseroles
and other functional pots using Native American decorative work? So
striking! Much
of her decorations remind me of Los Mimbres pots, but much is just
Kath's carrying
her theme in a different direction than the Los Mimbres but using
their geometrics
..... or appears to me to be such. I would love to work with their
very identifiable
themes myself, but my little dollop of Cherokee doesn't entitle me to
do so.......
at least, that's what I'm thinking.
Joyce
In the Mojave beginning to recover from Feb. and March ...... the studio is
beckoning more than 3 or 4 hours a day again........ hoohah! .......... (the
"hoohah" is in honor of Mel's Ward Bond theme on his new Big Sky
plates. Therefore, I'll end with "move 'em out....... pardner..."
Weiland, Jeff on thu 27 mar 08
Here is my take on the Pittsburgh experience. Thursday's options were
shy on depth and content for me. Friday's buffet of
speakers/panels/videos were packed so full of great material that I had
to step out of a couple early to get in on others for even a few
moments. One of the best panels was hosted by Bill Daley dealing with
public school issues. It was supposed to be over at noon and the cut off
the microphone at that time with many staying after to continue the
discussions for a long time after. I have never heard Bill speak before
but will remember him for a long time to come for his style and
simplicity in answering questions all the while making paper airplanes
to fly at those asking questions. Another great memory was watching the
video on the life and work of Sylvia Hyman. What an incredible lady. I
couldn't wait to get a copy of the DVD. She was there for the screening
and I was able to have a few words with her afterwards. Very personable.
Vince is right about some of the panels though. One of the panel
discussions was so dry and unprepared that I walked out after fifteen
minutes. It was pure torture. Great big room with very few in the seats.
Watching grass grow would have held my attention better. Of course the
time spend with Clayarters was right at the top of the highlight list. I
did get Bob Anderson's mug in the exchange on Friday evening. Big
score!!! One other disappointment was not having a version of clayart
shirts for this year. Maybe next year?=20
=20
By the way, one of the conversations dealt with the possibility of have
a more organized Clayart display that would revolve around a theme
related to the host site. Here is how it might look. All
Clayart/convention participants would be welcome to create on piece of
work to be displayed in the Clayart room. The subject/content of the
work would be based on the host city and/or region. Since we are going
to Arizona next year, my suggestion would be "Southwest/Native American"
works related both in form and finish if possible. No jury selection.
Just show. Another idea would be to have some sort of form for those
viewing to pick a favorite, tally the votes, and have some sort of
prize/plaque/reward. This could even be expanded to gold, silver, and
bronze medals. Cheap knock-offs of course. There might be a possibility
of getting some sort of ceramic-related sponsor to provide the prizes. I
am thinking this way to keep it simple - not much work. What do you
think?=20
=20
Jeff Weiland
Greenfield-Central High School
810 North Broadway
Greenfield, Indiana 46140
317-462-9211
jweiland@gcsc.k12.in.us
=20
gayle bair on thu 27 mar 08
Vince,
I have the highest regard for you but I take issue on this theme.
I have had an emotional, primal "cultural" connection with petroglyphs
since I was 6 years old. Who can say why I was hit
so powerfully as a child when I first saw the Grand Canyon or first
saw a petroglyph. There is a connection.... a very powerful connection
and I cannot divest myself from it even if I incur your wrath.
After such statements as yours I did some research on petroglyphs and
found that they are not just native American
but exist all over the world. Many of the shapes, designs & forms are
near identical.
How many times have we heard the "Nothing is new". What you are saying
then is that anyone who uses a spiral, or circle
is a cultural thief. Sorry I don't agree!
And that's my personal opinion!
I do agree that the show should not be limited as "originality" should
never be stunted in my opinion.
Gayle Bair - Ms. Non Original
Tucson AZ
Bainbridge Island WA
gayle@claybair.com
www.claybair.com
On Mar 27, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Jeff -
> Your idea of having a more organized show of work from the Clayart
> membership in the Clayart room is a great idea, but please, drop the
> "Southwest/Native American" theme. I do not mean any disrespect
> towards
> you, Jeff, but adherence to such a theme would be disrespectful to
> every
> Clayart member who has a well developed personal style of their own,
> and
> grossly disrespectful to all true Native Americans. It is only for
> Native
> Americans to make Native American art, with the exception of someone
> like
> Michael Wisner who has become a true expert on the imagery and/or
> iconography and the associated culture and religion.
>
> To appropriate and use Native American imagery without that kind of
> commitment and involvement is nothing less than cultural thievery,
> and shows
> a terrible lack of originality.
>
> That's my opinion on the subject.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
> Appalachian Center for Craft
> Tennessee Tech University
> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on thu 27 mar 08
Jeff -
Your idea of having a more organized show of work from the Clayart
membership in the Clayart room is a great idea, but please, drop the
"Southwest/Native American" theme. I do not mean any disrespect towards
you, Jeff, but adherence to such a theme would be disrespectful to every
Clayart member who has a well developed personal style of their own, and
grossly disrespectful to all true Native Americans. It is only for Native
Americans to make Native American art, with the exception of someone like
Michael Wisner who has become a true expert on the imagery and/or
iconography and the associated culture and religion.
To appropriate and use Native American imagery without that kind of
commitment and involvement is nothing less than cultural thievery, and shows
a terrible lack of originality.
That's my opinion on the subject.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Vince Pitelka on fri 28 mar 08
Gayle Bair wrote:
"I have the highest regard for you but I take issue on this theme.
I have had an emotional, primal "cultural" connection with petroglyphs
since I was 6 years old. Who can say why I was hit
so powerfully as a child when I first saw the Grand Canyon or first
saw a petroglyph. There is a connection.... a very powerful connection
and I cannot divest myself from it even if I incur your wrath.
After such statements as yours I did some research on petroglyphs and
found that they are not just native American
but exist all over the world. Many of the shapes, designs & forms are
near identical.
How many times have we heard the "Nothing is new". What you are saying
then is that anyone who uses a spiral, or circle
is a cultural thief."
Dear Gayle -
The regard is mutual, and I think you make very good points. You have felt
a commitment and connection since childhood, and that is the kind of
commitment and connection I am talking about. Certain iconographic symbols
are present in almost every culture, and of course they are fair game. I
would hope that anyone who decides to appropriate or adapt a symbol from
some specific culture would take the time to research and understand the
symbol before they use it. I think that's just a matter of common sense.
After all, these symbols are the language of another culture, and we need to
know exactly what we are saying in our work. If an ancient petroglyph
really aligns with what you believe and what you are trying to say, and if
you acknowledge the source of the imagery, and if you adapt it for your own
use and your own style, then we both agree on such use.
I am talking about shallow appropriation. "Oooh what a cool looking
petroglyph. I bet I can make money by putting that on coffee mugs." You've
never done that in your life, I'll bet. I like to think that any
intelligent person with a conscience would see that blind appropriation of
cultural imagery based on appearance alone is incredibly shallow.
My own ire was activated by the specific reference to a "Native American
theme." European cultures subjugated, humiliated, robbed, marginalized,
brutalized, dislocated, and often annihilated Native American cultures in a
blind frenzy of Manifest Destiny and westward expansion. I just maintain
that at this point we should respect and support their remaining cultural
identity with a hands-off policy. It is wonderful to look at it, admire it,
and be inspired and influenced by tribal art, but I think an
artist/craftsperson needs to have a pretty powerful reason and a very strong
personal commitment to get involved in adapting or reproducing specific
iconography and imagery from surviving Native American cultures. And let me
clarify that I am referring to the symbols and iconography of their
traditions and religion. Anyone is free to create images OF Native
Americans, pueblos, teepees, war chiefs, pow-wow's. That's an outsider's
view, and that's what artist's do. I am talking about appropriating the
specific cultural iconography and imagery of surviving Native American (or
African or Indonesian or Amazon) tribal cultures.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Kim Hohlmayer on fri 28 mar 08
Hi, All,
Sorry, Vince. While I agree with your basic thought especially about how a Native American theme would be limiting I take issue with the whole petroglyph and NA patterns and designs being off limits. For the 18 years I have been potting my greatest joy has been studying the designs and patterns of all cultures. As I have experimented with symbols and searched out every picture book on every cultural group's work I have made it all a part of myself and therefore my creativity and finally my work. The same is true for pot shapes, handle ideas, etc.
The bottom line is there will always be people who copy work as means of learning and those who plagerise because they want to make a buck. Please don't put all of us in the same basket. Thanks, Kim Hohlmayer
joyce wrote:
Vince said:
"It is only for Native
Americans to make Native American art, with the exception of someone like
Michael Wisner who has become a true expert on the imagery and/or
iconography and the associated culture and religion."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, as I usually do, I agree with him. However, here in our section of the
desert, we have our own petroglyph series which are protected since many
are on Federal lands. We have the petroglyphs and many of us have made
numerous annual
treks to see them since one can't just decide to ride out and take a look,
but must take advantage of the Matarango Museum's guided tours.
So...... we have the Native American inspiration available, which has become
part of our local culture and is treated with great respect and appreciation.
AND we have quite a few local potters but very few Native American potters,
although we do have Native Americans making extraordinary baskets and
jewelry.
In fact, we have a rather large Native American population (OR they have a
rather large non-Native American population, whichever came first ....... and
I know who fits there) ..... which contributes
much to our local performing events; although we all do seem to meld together
most of the year, those Events are wonderful and add much to our local
culture.
This is background simply to say that several of our non-NA potters have become
prolific in producing wonderful work with a petroglyph theme. It seems to me
that this work, too, fits under the category of having become somewhat expert
and gives these potters ..... not carte blanche....... but some reason to make
discretionary use of the Petroglyph theme.
What say you, Kath Nez, my friend who makes incredible contemporary casseroles
and other functional pots using Native American decorative work? So
striking! Much
of her decorations remind me of Los Mimbres pots, but much is just
Kath's carrying
her theme in a different direction than the Los Mimbres but using
their geometrics
..... or appears to me to be such. I would love to work with their
very identifiable
themes myself, but my little dollop of Cherokee doesn't entitle me to
do so.......
at least, that's what I'm thinking.
Joyce
In the Mojave beginning to recover from Feb. and March ...... the studio is
beckoning more than 3 or 4 hours a day again........ hoohah! .......... (the
"hoohah" is in honor of Mel's Ward Bond theme on his new Big Sky
plates. Therefore, I'll end with "move 'em out....... pardner..."
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
---------------------------------
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David McBeth on fri 28 mar 08
There is a huge difference between being influenced by a culture's imagery
and appropriating it. I make handle-less cups for drinking tea, water,
bourbon or whatever out of. They are clearly derivative of Japanese
teabowls, I am not Japanese, the bowls are not Japanese, though some times
the tea I drink out of them comes from Japan and Japanese people have drink,
drank drunk out of them. I have served sushi on a plate, that does not make
it a Japanese sushi plate. Spirals are not the property of any one culture,
but to make pots tat aim at being spin-offs or strive to make claim to be
something they can't be is in appropriate. Crosses, plus-signs, swastikas
and the list goes on.
I should spend more time on this but my annual evaluation meeting with my
dept chair is in 10 minutes across campus.
Dave
David McBeth, MFA
330 B Gooch Hall
Department of Visual and Theatre Arts
UT Martin
Martin, TN 38238
731-881-7416
Terrance Lazaroff on fri 28 mar 08
To all;
I am with Vince on this one. There is nothing wrong about using
Native/American imagery and form in our work but we cannot categorize it as
Native/American thus we cannot use the term as a theme. We can name the
theme quote, After Native/American, unquote. I also agree that each of us
does our own thing and having to curve our work to fit into some box does
not interest many of us. Forget the theme. Let the spirit of our times,
our places, our feelings become the new movement. If we must have a theme
call it quote Clay Play with Clayart unquote.
Food for thought.
Terrance Frank Lazaroff
Visit Terry's Website at http://www.clayart.ca
Vince Pitelka on fri 28 mar 08
Kim Hohlmayer wrote:
"Sorry, Vince. While I agree with your basic thought especially about how a
Native American theme would be limiting I take issue with the whole
petroglyph and NA patterns and designs being off limits. For the 18 years I
have been potting my greatest joy has been studying the designs and patterns
of all cultures. As I have experimented with symbols and searched out every
picture book on every cultural group's work I have made it all a part of
myself and therefore my creativity and finally my work. The same is true
for pot shapes, handle ideas, etc. The bottom line is there will always be
people who copy work as means of learning and those who plagerise because
they want to make a buck. Please don't put all of us in the same basket.
Kim -
We agree on this, and nothing I said in any way "put all of us in the same
basket." Don't jump to unwarranted conclusions. Long-time members of
Clayart are tired of me quoting Jazz-man Clark Terry, who said "Imitate,
assimilate, innovate." So, it is perfectly okay to imitate the work of
other artists or cultures (and I never indicated in any way that it wasn't
okay) as a learning experience, but then we must synthesize something of our
own if we want to believe in ourselves as artists. Of course we could also
choose to be a craftsperson who simply commits to preserving and continuing
some sort of historical style, such as Southern Song Dynasty celadon.
That's okay, and it's important, but it's not at all original.
The slippery slope comes with tribal cultures that are still alive and well,
and with imagery that is essential to their religious beliefs and the
remnants of cultural hegemony. They have (and SHOULD have) proprietary
rights to that imagery, and we are not entitled to use that imagery (except
as a learning experience) unless we have committed ourselves to the
particular culture, with a thorough understanding of and respect for their
traditions and beliefs. People who appropriate Kokopelli and put him on a
coffee mug need to be slapped soundly. That's an extreme example, but in my
random samplings of craft fairs and galleries throughout the country, I am
frequently amazed and offended by the lack of imagination I see in the
degree to which people misappropriate cultural imagery and iconography.
What the hell are they thinking, and how can they possible think that this
is okay?
As you can see, I can easily get into a prolonged rant about this, but I've
made my point.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Kim Hohlmayer on mon 31 mar 08
Vince,
As my husband puts it, "We are in agreeance" on this issue. --Kim H.
Vince Pitelka wrote:
Kim Hohlmayer wrote:
"Sorry, Vince. While I agree with your basic thought especially about how a
Native American theme would be limiting I take issue with the whole
petroglyph and NA patterns and designs being off limits. For the 18 years I
have been potting my greatest joy has been studying the designs and patterns
of all cultures. As I have experimented with symbols and searched out every
picture book on every cultural group's work I have made it all a part of
myself and therefore my creativity and finally my work. The same is true
for pot shapes, handle ideas, etc. The bottom line is there will always be
people who copy work as means of learning and those who plagerise because
they want to make a buck. Please don't put all of us in the same basket.
Kim -
We agree on this, and nothing I said in any way "put all of us in the same
basket." Don't jump to unwarranted conclusions. Long-time members of
Clayart are tired of me quoting Jazz-man Clark Terry, who said "Imitate,
assimilate, innovate." So, it is perfectly okay to imitate the work of
other artists or cultures (and I never indicated in any way that it wasn't
okay) as a learning experience, but then we must synthesize something of our
own if we want to believe in ourselves as artists. Of course we could also
choose to be a craftsperson who simply commits to preserving and continuing
some sort of historical style, such as Southern Song Dynasty celadon.
That's okay, and it's important, but it's not at all original.
The slippery slope comes with tribal cultures that are still alive and well,
and with imagery that is essential to their religious beliefs and the
remnants of cultural hegemony. They have (and SHOULD have) proprietary
rights to that imagery, and we are not entitled to use that imagery (except
as a learning experience) unless we have committed ourselves to the
particular culture, with a thorough understanding of and respect for their
traditions and beliefs. People who appropriate Kokopelli and put him on a
coffee mug need to be slapped soundly. That's an extreme example, but in my
random samplings of craft fairs and galleries throughout the country, I am
frequently amazed and offended by the lack of imagination I see in the
degree to which people misappropriate cultural imagery and iconography.
What the hell are they thinking, and how can they possible think that this
is okay?
As you can see, I can easily get into a prolonged rant about this, but I've
made my point.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
---------------------------------
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