speaking of futile nobility: garth clark is making me twitch.

updated sat 19 apr 08

Kelly Savino on fri 28 mar 08

I'm not sure I explained this whole thing very well.

It's not really about graduation and what-now angst. Yes, I guess it
feels sometimes like I bought an MFA ticket for the roller coaster, just
as it shut down for the season. And I won't lie, I'd love to teach in a
small college ceramics program, particularly one that values functional
work as well as sculptural. But it's not really news to me that there
are fewer and fewer of those, clayart has been discussing that for
years, (and I recently read that a lot of students start in ceramics and
wander off to sculpture or beyond, never to return.)...

but yes, I suppose I have spent a lot of time perfecting skills for
which the world may have no need. I mean, think of the last batch of
people to become travel agents before travelocity.com... TV or appliance
repairmen, when the world began to pitch stuff and buy new... or real
estate agents, just before the housing bubble burst.

On the other hand, I was a potter with my own studio, selling work, for
a decade before I went to school. In a lot of ways, I am the same kind
of pasta coming out of Stephani's "extruder" as I was going in -- just
better at making stuff, firing stuff, building stuff, mixing stuff. If I
end up back in my studio making and selling better pots -- if I continue
to teach at the Potter's Guild instead of a college -- it will all be
good. My husband has health insurance, we don't especially need to be
rich and famous. I knew an MFA in ceramics wasn't going to be a big
career move, any more than my previous MA in Folklore/anthro/fine arts
was. (My pal at microsoft teased me about that one.. "Oh, yes, I can see
why you would need a graduate degree to get the corporate edge in a
field like (snicker) FOLKLORE".)

I was never in it for the big bucks. Right place, right time, right prof
encouraging me to do it.

More specifically, the articles are making me wonder about my
assumptions as a potter. Garth Clark seems to be encouraging us to step
away from our little fraternity, lest we miss opportunities and new
developments in the wider circle of art and craft. It reminds me a bit
of David Suzuki's environment lecture at NCECA... he said that we were
so busy thinking in (somewhat isolationist, traditional) "American"
ways, that we were missing the boat while other countries develop,
invent and patent alternative energies and look beyond a fossil fuel
economy to some potentially profitable new ways of doing things.

Clark seems to imply the same kind of thing about potters. Fine artists
in other media have begun to "poach" on our territory, and, unencumbered
by our traditional, potterly ideas about what is considered "cheating"
and what is "noble", they are breaking new ground and making work better
suited to design, the market and the modern world. In a story about Mark
Cecula in American Craft, Garth Clark says,

"Those making decorative and functional wares are facing competition
from the unstoppable contemporary design juggernaut. Their markets are
either becalmed or shrinking, while design grows exponentially. There
are many reasons for this. An old-world, conservative rustic design
aesthetic in ceramics, at least for functional wares -- great for the
country cottage but less suited to the city apartment -- is one cause.
Another is that ceramists have not figured out that they are in
competition not just with each other any more but with the design and
art worlds as well. Instead of attending the annual conference of NCECA,
they should flock to Design Week in Milan."

And Cecula points out, "...the craft studio model is becoming
increasingly impractical in economic terms, and ...younger audiences
favor the more urban, progressive look that industry often delivers." He
sees the present moment for ceramics as "the perfect storm, provided the
ceramics community can adjust to the realities of living and working in
the 21st century and risk venturing out into its choppy waters".

All the themes of clayart come to mind... worries over failing art
fairs, bennies for full time potters, worries over the aging customer
base, a search for methods of production easier on the joints. The
conversations in my seminars come to mind: design majors, sculptors,
printmakers, photographers, all well versed on other disciplines and
looking for the forward-cutting edge of their medium's technology, while
we in ceramics stay in our fortress, looking backward.

Later in the same issue of American Craft, Ezra Shales writes in
"Technophilic Craft" that ceramists need to come out of the "conceptual
closet" and reclaim the tools their predecessors "foreswore a hundred
years ago for the sake of John Ruskin and William Morris's ideology of
"handicraft"."

He suggests that if potters don't reconsider the manufacturing methods
of the 19th century (jigger and jolly, sledging of plaster and the
lathe) and simultaneously learn 21st century digital tools, "other
makers will encroach more deeply into their field".

He suggests -- and tell me, honestly, that you don't recognize these
themes from clayart -- three abstractions that he says are "bedeviling
handicraft".

1.) The idealization of the autonomous craftsperson.

Isn't that who we want to be? David Hendley, without a boss, firing his
own kiln and putting his kids through school on pots? If industry =
alienation (and Shales argues that it needn't) then the autonomous
potter is kind of a hero figure to all of us. But would I advise my kid
to be an artisan, today? With no bennies?

2.) The valorization of the autonomous object.

Isn't that what we obsess about, the pot that goes from our hand to the
hand/home/lip of the user? The one of a kind, hand made, noble pot?

3.) The criterion of "pleasure in work" as a measure of art.

We make it because we have to, because we love it, because our happiness
is somehow carried in the pot out into the world and translated by use
to the owner. It surely makes it important, rewarding work for the
maker, but does that mean it has significance to others?

Shales considers these "pivitol inhibitions" that will need to disappear
if craft education is ever to be liberated from "alternating between
self-righteousness, and victimization".

Ouch.

He talks about us seeing the manufactory in terms of "sanctimonious
speeches", and says the "cliche' of freedom" has become ingrained in
craft lore -- as if the craftsman-artist's inspired individuality "were
redemptive for society as a whole".

(He also finds it ironic that the idealization of the independent
craftsman lives on, primarily, in academic art schools.)

So what to make of all this? These truisms are all flags I have waved.
As if somehow my little backyard pots, tomatoes, eggs and bees have some
symbolic importance beyond my kitchen table, and will somehow improve
society, reverse the tide, and bring down factory-farming, styrofoam
choked landfills and all that is faceless and industrial.

It's not exactly a crisis, for me, in the normal sense of the word. I
will spend my days in pursuit of designing the perfect kefir crock for
my countertop, whether or not the world can be expected to care.
Somebody, somewhere will always buy my pots, and there will always be
people out there who want to learn to throw, or throw better. So it's
not an immediate, what-will-happen-when-I-graduate concern.

It's more like the first time I have considered how fundamentalist we
potters can be in our approach, our set of commandments, our dogma that
until now I have not questioned -- because "what do those people know?
They aren't potters..." .

I am surrounded by college kids, these days, MFA art students, and the
stuff I am reading makes me wonder whether we in ceramics spend enough
time looking ahead -- not at fashion, trend and whim, but at
possibilities and technologies that will change the course of ceramics,
as surely as bagged clay and the electric kiln did for my generation.

Even Janet Koplos at NCECA implied that ceramics needs to open up to the
larger art world. She doesn't believe there should BE more all-ceramics
galleries, shows, writers, etc -- because we're "preaching to the
choir". She considers it healthier for our work to be mixed in with
other examples of fine craft and art, to stand on its own merits with
folks who may not have the "insider information".

I don't know what any of this amounts to, except that I should be in bed
asleep instead of trying to figure all this out. I am up early tomorrow
to drive to EMU and teach my intro-to-studio-art-for-non-majors... who
come away from every clay, drawing, paint or print project with a new
appreciation for what is involved. Tomorrow, linocuts. I'm bringing
band-aids.

Thanks to anyone who read this far.

yours
Kelly in Ohio.. both boys at a scout sleepover, and I had a lovely quiet
dinner with Jeff and Molly at a little Indian restaurant tonight... last
night's inches of snow plopping off the pines in the sun today, rows of
good pots on my home studio shelves, awaiting a bisque firing and a ride
to school. My guild class semester ended with a potluck and crit, and
the new class begins next week.

Kelly Savino on fri 28 mar 08

I ended up choosing Garth Clark for my art critic assignment for my
seminar. So I have been reading a lot of his writing.

I am getting a little uneasy, because his view of where the ceramic
world is going is kind of hard to dismiss.

I am concerned that traditional potters ARE entrenched in "Fortress
Ceramica", ignoring the worlds of fine art, science, design, industry,
multi-media programs and all the non-potter others who are stepping in
to pick up our ceramic materials and run with them... while we make our
cottagey functional pots, struggle to make a living in what is basically
a medieval business model. I feel like a lot of my noble ideas about the
importance of the handmade are sentimental wishful thinking. I am having
something like a crisis of faith, here, on the eve of my MFA show.

And I look around me... programs everywhere selling the potter's wheels,
U of M blending all the media into one big program where students hop
from metal to clay to fiber without having to choose a concentration...

The Toledo Potters Guild's Heather Mae Erickson went off to Cranbrook,
and now she's on the cover of Ceramics Monthly with, basically, a design
project -- a large round serving plate with spoon-like petals, all
designed and cast, both artful and industry-friendly.

A review in that same CM declared that craftsmanship and skill with
materials is no longer the point, that idea-in-a-rush-to-be-expressed is
more important than technical details.

Decals and conceptual work, compilations from slip molds of little
critters and kitsch, all the stuff I am seeing these days would seem to
reinforce Garth's notions.

And here we are defending the nobility of craftsmanship and handmade
pottery, while the art fairs die a slow death and walmart sells
asian-inspired functional ceramic ware for pennies.

Maybe we can't expect the public to share our notstalgia forever.

Maybe the generation that loved handwoven fabrics and iron-speckled
stoneware is not going to be around forever. I feel like the new
buggy-whip maker, clinging to the noble pride in what I do... even
though, increasingly, nobody cares.

Potters have thousands of years of tradition, skill and artistry... but
so did the blacksmiths, wine and cheese-makers, coopers and
furniture-makers. Industry won. Those things have disappeared or become
expensive hobbies for retired dentists. Is pottery next, destined to be
the community ed class, the step up from paint-a-plate?

Somebody talk me down. I do not write these words lightly, and need some
reassurance past the noble cliches and platitudes I am able to generate
myself...

Yours
Kelly in Ohio... who thinks it's important to have a backyard hive,. a
garden and a couple of chickens... but the world isn't headed that way,
either, is it?

jonathan edward byler on fri 28 mar 08

Kelly,

Probably the most important thing to do, is to go with what you think
is right. I learned a lot from grad school (MFA in Sculpture from UW-
Madison 2004), but probably the most important thing that I learned
was how to define and make my work on my terms. The so called art
world is a reflection of the real world, and as such often leaves
much to be desired. Don't let the perverse nature of how things
usually operate get in the way of you making things that are
inspiring and meaningful to you and hopefully inspiring and
meaningful to others. Pottery is not dead, neither is sculpture and
neither is painting, or anything else for that matter. As long as
there are warm bodies about, there will be people who crave to make
things and people who crave to have things that are well made. That
is one of many needs that a potter can fulfill in life, making fine
objects for everyday use. One of many joys that comes from being a
potter is making different stuff for different people to satisfy
their needs. Most mass produced stuff just doesn't cut it, whether
it be art, pottery, hammers, food, etc.

So, since we are in this post post post modern world, grab what you
like and run with it, just be sure that you can explain, in good
english, to your committee, what it is all about...

-jon

p.s. I'm with you on the bees and chickens thing. I just wish there
was more time, so I could actually make space for them.



jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849



On Mar 28, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Kelly Savino wrote:

> I ended up choosing Garth Clark for my art critic assignment for my
> seminar. So I have been reading a lot of his writing.
>
> I am getting a little uneasy, because his view of where the ceramic
> world is going is kind of hard to dismiss.
>
> I am concerned that traditional potters ARE entrenched in "Fortress
> Ceramica", ignoring the worlds of fine art, science, design, industry,
> multi-media programs and all the non-potter others who are stepping in
> to pick up our ceramic materials and run with them... while we make
> our
> cottagey functional pots, struggle to make a living in what is
> basically
> a medieval business model. I feel like a lot of my noble ideas
> about the
> importance of the handmade are sentimental wishful thinking. I am
> having
> something like a crisis of faith, here, on the eve of my MFA show.
>
> And I look around me... programs everywhere selling the potter's
> wheels,
> U of M blending all the media into one big program where students hop
> from metal to clay to fiber without having to choose a
> concentration...
>
> The Toledo Potters Guild's Heather Mae Erickson went off to Cranbrook,
> and now she's on the cover of Ceramics Monthly with, basically, a
> design
> project -- a large round serving plate with spoon-like petals, all
> designed and cast, both artful and industry-friendly.
>
> A review in that same CM declared that craftsmanship and skill with
> materials is no longer the point, that idea-in-a-rush-to-be-
> expressed is
> more important than technical details.
>
> Decals and conceptual work, compilations from slip molds of little
> critters and kitsch, all the stuff I am seeing these days would
> seem to
> reinforce Garth's notions.
>
> And here we are defending the nobility of craftsmanship and handmade
> pottery, while the art fairs die a slow death and walmart sells
> asian-inspired functional ceramic ware for pennies.
>
> Maybe we can't expect the public to share our notstalgia forever.
>
> Maybe the generation that loved handwoven fabrics and iron-speckled
> stoneware is not going to be around forever. I feel like the new
> buggy-whip maker, clinging to the noble pride in what I do... even
> though, increasingly, nobody cares.
>
> Potters have thousands of years of tradition, skill and artistry...
> but
> so did the blacksmiths, wine and cheese-makers, coopers and
> furniture-makers. Industry won. Those things have disappeared or
> become
> expensive hobbies for retired dentists. Is pottery next, destined
> to be
> the community ed class, the step up from paint-a-plate?
>
> Somebody talk me down. I do not write these words lightly, and need
> some
> reassurance past the noble cliches and platitudes I am able to
> generate
> myself...
>
> Yours
> Kelly in Ohio... who thinks it's important to have a backyard hive,. a
> garden and a couple of chickens... but the world isn't headed that
> way,
> either, is it?
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

Randall Moody on fri 28 mar 08

>>A review in that same CM declared that craftsmanship and skill with
materials is no longer the point, that idea-in-a-rush-to-be-expressed is
more important than technical details.


Personally I usually find that the ones espousing this point of view
are usually the ones who have little skill and even less
craftsmanship. I wonder why craftsmanship and skill with the material
seems to be at odds with the art world these days. Could it be that we
have too long suffered under the "art as therapy" mantle?



--
Randall in Atlanta

jonathan edward byler on fri 28 mar 08

Well,

I know this sounds cynical but It does allow the system to churn out
more "artists." It is easier to make a mediocre artist look good
than to make a mediocre craftsman look good. It's pretty hard to
b.s. your way around that crack in the bottom of your pot.

I am for art and the artist and all the rest, but I am really
saddened by what often gets passed as valid expression, just because
someone felt like it. People get caught up in what they want their
work to be about, without really stopping to analyze if it actually
conveys the message, which they claim that they are sending. I guess
today's art world is the ultimate reflection of the culture of
mediocrity that is the hallmark of democratic consumer capitalism.
Uninformed consumers will buy ANYTHING if the right people tell them
it is good, regardless of what they think themselves. Fortunately
with the number of artists that we are churning out these days, there
might actually be more people in the future who are educated enough
to call bull on all the bad stuff that gets out there.

-jon

(disgruntled consumer of contemporary art)



On Mar 28, 2008, at 12:59 PM, Randall Moody wrote:

>>> A review in that same CM declared that craftsmanship and skill with
> materials is no longer the point, that idea-in-a-rush-to-be-
> expressed is
> more important than technical details.
>
>
> Personally I usually find that the ones espousing this point of view
> are usually the ones who have little skill and even less
> craftsmanship. I wonder why craftsmanship and skill with the material
> seems to be at odds with the art world these days. Could it be that we
> have too long suffered under the "art as therapy" mantle?
>
>
>
> --
> Randall in Atlanta
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com

WILLIAM JAMES on fri 28 mar 08

Kelly,
=20
pooh yey ?? =20
=20
just pick up a cup someone else made. fill it with your favorite bev. "best=
alcohol they say". sit back and feel the passion that went into that cup f=
eel the cup.. then remember why you keep bees and plant and make your own s=
tuff. people will like what you do when they feel it too!!=20



> Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:03:25 -0700> From: primalmommy@MAIL2OHIO.COM> S=
ubject: Speaking of futile nobility: Garth Clark is making me twitch.> To: =
CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > I ended up choosing Garth Clark for my art crit=
ic assignment for my> seminar. So I have been reading a lot of his writing.=
> > I am getting a little uneasy, because his view of where the ceramic> wo=
rld is going is kind of hard to dismiss.> > I am concerned that traditional=
potters ARE entrenched in "Fortress> Ceramica", ignoring the worlds of fin=
e art, science, design, industry,> multi-media programs and all the non-pot=
ter others who are stepping in> to pick up our ceramic materials and run wi=
th them... while we make our> cottagey functional pots, struggle to make a =
living in what is basically> a medieval business model. I feel like a lot o=
f my noble ideas about the> importance of the handmade are sentimental wish=
ful thinking. I am having> something like a crisis of faith, here, on the e=
ve of my MFA show.> > And I look around me... programs everywhere selling t=
he potter's wheels,> U of M blending all the media into one big program whe=
re students hop> from metal to clay to fiber without having to choose a con=
centration...> > The Toledo Potters Guild's Heather Mae Erickson went off t=
o Cranbrook,> and now she's on the cover of Ceramics Monthly with, basicall=
y, a design> project -- a large round serving plate with spoon-like petals,=
all> designed and cast, both artful and industry-friendly.> > A review in =
that same CM declared that craftsmanship and skill with> materials is no lo=
nger the point, that idea-in-a-rush-to-be-expressed is> more important than=
technical details.> > Decals and conceptual work, compilations from slip m=
olds of little> critters and kitsch, all the stuff I am seeing these days w=
ould seem to> reinforce Garth's notions.> > And here we are defending the n=
obility of craftsmanship and handmade> pottery, while the art fairs die a s=
low death and walmart sells> asian-inspired functional ceramic ware for pen=
nies.> > Maybe we can't expect the public to share our notstalgia forever.>=
> Maybe the generation that loved handwoven fabrics and iron-speckled> sto=
neware is not going to be around forever. I feel like the new> buggy-whip m=
aker, clinging to the noble pride in what I do... even> though, increasingl=
y, nobody cares.> > Potters have thousands of years of tradition, skill and=
artistry... but> so did the blacksmiths, wine and cheese-makers, coopers a=
nd> furniture-makers. Industry won. Those things have disappeared or become=
> expensive hobbies for retired dentists. Is pottery next, destined to be> =
the community ed class, the step up from paint-a-plate?> > Somebody talk me=
down. I do not write these words lightly, and need some> reassurance past =
the noble cliches and platitudes I am able to generate> myself...> > Yours>=
Kelly in Ohio... who thinks it's important to have a backyard hive,. a> ga=
rden and a couple of chickens... but the world isn't headed that way,> eith=
er, is it?> > _____________________________________________________________=
_________________> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.cerami=
cs.org> > You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change =
your> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.=
acers.org/cic/clayart/> > Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be =
reached at melpots2@visi.com=

Elizabeth Priddy on fri 28 mar 08

A balanced life is necessary for happiness.

Too many people disregard the NEED for basic happiness.

You have to render unto Ceasar and all that, and so
you should pay heed to the current trends if you are in
a publish or perish evironment, like an academic job.

But then there is the rest of your life. It matters whether you
made the dishes you eat off of, or at least know who did. At
least it matters to potters and a handful of others.

It matters to me whether I can play music and know
others to play with. It matters where my eggs and
honey and veg come from.

The reason that it matters is that balance in life requires a
mate for all the technology and plastic we are more and more
compelled to deal with to remain relevant in society. For every
email you write, it would be nice if you talked to a person in the
flesh. For every can you open, you might balance it with a cuke
from your very own garden. For every plastic storage bin you buy,
there is the real cup you use every morning.

Live in the real world, but be damn sure that it remains
livable by a reasonoable standard of happiness. And perhaps
the rest will see your happiness and follow your example.

I have always thought that extremes are the refuge of the simple
minded. Life is complicated. Work it out so that it is all good.

Balance in life is an art. Render unto Garth what is Garth's.
Your, my, our pots are part of the greater fabric of life. My
brush painting is a throw-back, but my presentation of it is
unique and current, a balanced representation of my own vision
of the world.

Good luck with your show.

E




Elizabeth Priddy
Beaufort, NC - USA

Natural Instincts Conference Information:
http://downtothepottershouse.com/NaturalInstincts.html
http://www.elizabethpriddy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7973282@N03/

---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

Taylor Hendrix on fri 28 mar 08

Kelly,

I know little about a great many things, much about very few things,
and mostly I know a whole lot of nothing, but...

What you and Garth seem (I really don't know) to be touching on is fashion.

Fashion is fickle is perishable. It's regional and cultural and
political. Fashion is a whim and a trifle and a speculation. It's good
for business and the figure. Fashion is a way to mark time and a way
to mark time (yep, yep) It's a hell of a foot race, and by golly it's
left me behind years ago, but mostly it blows (like the wind) so let
it turn your windmill rather than lift your skirts.

I find myself agreeing with Louis that we are clayers just as those
who use paint are painters. I'm a weener when handles fit fingers,
rims invite lips, and tables steady plates.

God bless the mud we're wedded to.

Peace out, Elvis has left the building,

Taylor, in Rockport TX

On 3/28/08, Kelly Savino wrote:
> I ended up choosing Garth Clark for my art critic assignment for my
> seminar. So I have been reading a lot of his writing.
>
> I am getting a little uneasy, because his view of where the ceramic
> world is going is kind of hard to dismiss.
>
> I am concerned that traditional potters ARE entrenched in "Fortress
> Ceramica", ignoring the worlds of fine art, science, design, industry,
> multi-media programs and all the non-potter others who are stepping in
> to pick up our ceramic materials and run with them...

Steve Mills on fri 28 mar 08

Firstly I apologize for not trimming Kelly's post under my response, but I feel it must remain whole!

My favourite quote, attributed to St Francis of Assisi is as follows:
Who works with their hands, is a Labourer
Who works with their hands and their Head is a Craftsman
Who works with their hands, their Head, and their Heart is an Artist.

So I'm saying: IF the heart is in it, it's valid!

It's what YOU get out of it that's important.

Sadly it has always been hard work selling work you believe in. We may get "purple" patches when it looks as though you've cracked it, but sure as eggs are Hen Fruit it'll cave in at some point and you're back fighting again 'till the next PPatch.
The point is it's what we DO that makes us "Whole".

After a shakey start I found my niche making serving and cold table wares for small hotels and restaraunts. For a few good years it worked and I was able to support my family without other supplements, but there was a major crash (mid '70s) and I was back to square one again.
A lucky break making strange flower pots led in a very roundabout way to the Ceramic Supply business Kate and I then ran for 25 years which kept us solvent, and I kept my hand in making bits here and there.
Now I'm so say retired and making (in my eyes) the best work of my life, but it's still a bugger trying to sell it. But I feel DAMN GOOD, 'cos in my eyes I'm making good, honest, working pots not GeeGaws!

The fancy stuff you highlite by and large will fade like cheap printer inks in sunlight, the stuff from the heart will survive, however strange it may look, and a few of us will make a living at it, BUT we will ALL make out because of what we do.
Potters are wonderfully stable honest people; look at the Clayart Family for a start, sure we may argue and sometimes be very rude to and about each other, but it's because we're passionate about what we do, otherwise we'd all be the same sort of metaphorical drab grey colour living drab grey lives on drab grey streets.

Educational establishments the world over are "rationalising" their craft workshops and certainly in the UK heading down the "virtual" creation route, but this is often the work of financial managers who can't see further than the balance sheet and would love to get rid of that nasty, dirty, expensive pottery, and have rows of nice clean computers that look so clever on Parents Day.
This is a pendulum, at the moment it's going the wrong way, but it will swing the other way, not exactly the same way as before but it will return.

Don't let the prophets of doom get you down with their depressing analyses and leaden predictions.
You have a fire in you that must not be quenched, so raise a good sized cup of your favourite fire-water and drink to the "Confusion of all doom mongers and the unstoppable power of personal creation"!

Steve Mills
A happy old fool living in
Bath
UK
with cupboards of pots he likes but can't sell!
maybe next month.....................................!



Kelly Savino wrote:
I ended up choosing Garth Clark for my art critic assignment for my
seminar. So I have been reading a lot of his writing.

I am getting a little uneasy, because his view of where the ceramic
world is going is kind of hard to dismiss.

I am concerned that traditional potters ARE entrenched in "Fortress
Ceramica", ignoring the worlds of fine art, science, design, industry,
multi-media programs and all the non-potter others who are stepping in
to pick up our ceramic materials and run with them... while we make our
cottagey functional pots, struggle to make a living in what is basically
a medieval business model. I feel like a lot of my noble ideas about the
importance of the handmade are sentimental wishful thinking. I am having
something like a crisis of faith, here, on the eve of my MFA show.

And I look around me... programs everywhere selling the potter's wheels,
U of M blending all the media into one big program where students hop
from metal to clay to fiber without having to choose a concentration...

The Toledo Potters Guild's Heather Mae Erickson went off to Cranbrook,
and now she's on the cover of Ceramics Monthly with, basically, a design
project -- a large round serving plate with spoon-like petals, all
designed and cast, both artful and industry-friendly.

A review in that same CM declared that craftsmanship and skill with
materials is no longer the point, that idea-in-a-rush-to-be-expressed is
more important than technical details.

Decals and conceptual work, compilations from slip molds of little
critters and kitsch, all the stuff I am seeing these days would seem to
reinforce Garth's notions.

And here we are defending the nobility of craftsmanship and handmade
pottery, while the art fairs die a slow death and walmart sells
asian-inspired functional ceramic ware for pennies.

Maybe we can't expect the public to share our notstalgia forever.

Maybe the generation that loved handwoven fabrics and iron-speckled
stoneware is not going to be around forever. I feel like the new
buggy-whip maker, clinging to the noble pride in what I do... even
though, increasingly, nobody cares.

Potters have thousands of years of tradition, skill and artistry... but
so did the blacksmiths, wine and cheese-makers, coopers and
furniture-makers. Industry won. Those things have disappeared or become
expensive hobbies for retired dentists. Is pottery next, destined to be
the community ed class, the step up from paint-a-plate?

Somebody talk me down. I do not write these words lightly, and need some
reassurance past the noble cliches and platitudes I am able to generate
myself...

Yours
Kelly in Ohio... who thinks it's important to have a backyard hive,. a
garden and a couple of chickens... but the world isn't headed that way,
either, is it?

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Terrance Lazaroff on fri 28 mar 08

Hello Kelly;

I have been reading about your quest to finish your studies. I think, and
I repeat, I think, you just realised that your quest is about over and you
must now go out into the world and justify the decisions you have made this
past few years. You are getting cold feet about your chosen profession.
It is a natural emotion for someone who has worked hard at their craft, in
an academic atmosphere, trying to justify the rational for their direction,
their medium, form and technique. The academic environment demands that we
search for recognition from our professors, our peers, as well as our
family and friends. The real world demands that this recognition be in the
form of monetary remuneration, guaranteed employment, and the appreciation
of society for what we do.

You realise that schools are downsizing their wet studios, teaching
positions with decent salaries are disappearing, craft fairs and sales are
becoming more like community bazaars and nobody is writing page after page
about the aesthetics of a functional mug or a beautifully thrown and
decorated plate. Commercial functional wares have become just that
functional to all, beautiful to none.

To read someone who dedicates pages of words talking about objects that
have absolutely no usefulness other than dinner party conversation or for
satisfying someone=92s ego can be disheartening. But that does not mean tha=
t
there is no place for the work of the =93Unknown=94 potter in today=92s soci=
ety.
I have heard it said that if it can be hung on a wall it could be worth a
fortune. I have seen a cup and saucer squashed, glazed with toxic
material, fired and cracked hung on a wall demanding exponential amounts of
cash more that a good functional cup and saucer. Yet when I enter a home
of someone who offers me a cup of coffee and they serve it in one of my
creations the value of my work becomes priceless.

I have not read that many writings of Garth Clark, however, those articles
that I did read, gave no indication that he ever put down the work of the
simple potter. For him, Art, with a capital A, is like any other business.
It is money driven and thus it demands that high priced items get promoted
to maximise the revenue against the expenses. New York is an expensive
place to run a business so revenue is important. Garth Clark is a
businessman, period. He wants to make money. He will not be able to buy a
coffee with the revenue from selling one of my mugs. He gets the revenue
from the blah blah blah and selling of a pot that cannot hold water but
supports a price tag with three or more zeros. The funny part is that he
knows what a good mug is when he drinks his coffee.

Once you have had your show and you have gone on to whatever you are going
to do, I suggest you take some time to read "One Day in the Life of Ivan
Denisovich: A Novel" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. I think it will help you
understand where your have been and where you will be going.

For what it is worth.
Terrance Lazaroff
Visit Terry=92s website at http;//www.clayart.ca

William & Susan Schran User on sat 29 mar 08

On 3/29/08 12:59 AM, "Kelly Savino" wrote:

> And I won't lie, I'd love to teach in a
> small college ceramics program, particularly one that values functional
> work as well as sculptural. But it's not really news to me that there
> are fewer and fewer of those, clayart has been discussing that for
> years, (and I recently read that a lot of students start in ceramics and
> wander off to sculpture or beyond, never to return.)...
>
> but yes, I suppose I have spent a lot of time perfecting skills for
> which the world may have no need.

Kelly,

You need to have the following skills: #1. Teach more than pottery, #2. Know
how to repair equipment, #3. Know how to raise money.

I have been teaching in a small college setting (well, the college is huge,
but my division/building is rather small) for 30 years and I'd advise the
following strategies: Have the skill set ready to go to teach drawing, basic
design and/or art history. Most small colleges/community colleges may have a
limited population that will only support one or two pottery classes, so to
meet contract you'll need to teach other art classes. Be ready for that.
So far as I know I may be the only full-time faculty in the Virginia
Community College System that only teaches pottery - that's 23 colleges!!
My colleague at a sister campus teaches two pottery classes and a design
class and at another campus it's an adjunct that teaches pottery.

Be ready to teach more than one section/level of pottery at a time. Again,
limited enrollments/limited studio space. I teach a morning & night class,
each is a ceramics 1, ceramics 2 and supervised study combined. I have the
room configured so there are areas for handbuilding and wheelthrowing.

While you're in school, learn how to maintain and repair all of the
equipment, especially kilns and wheels. This is a skill set you must have to
survive in situations with limited budgets. I maintain and repair 6
electrics and one gas kiln, 12 wheels, plus any number of misc. small
things.

You need to learn about writing grants and begging for money. I go after two
or three grants every year, couple thousand each - has bought most of our
equipment. I started an account in our educational foundation. Told the
students: "If you what this piece of equipment or these supplies, it costs
this much, you'll need to donate the money to the foundation and you get a
tax write off." This is how I restock the chemicals every semester. Every
year, beginning of December, we have our holiday pottery show & benefit,
students donate (as do I) pots, raise a few thousand, pays for many things.

IMHO - As for traditional studio pottery skills VS tecnology/other
arts/"new" design - cultures/societies go through cycles of accepting new
things then seeking nostalgia over and over. When folks tire of the cold
impersonal technology, they will then turn back to something earthy that
they can touch, something that connects them to somebody else, thus the
client and the craftsman.

Bill

--
William "Bill" Schran
wschran@cox.net
wschran@nvcc.edu
http://www.creativecreekartisans.com

stephani stephenson on sat 29 mar 08

Kelly, I think Clark's point about design is well
spoken and worthy of consideration.

he seem to be talking about those doing decorative
and functional ware rather than the one -ofs....
I do wonder if the concepts of style and design get a
bit switched around here....

for example retro/modern/craftsman/bauhaus/ etc ..are
now 'styles' , though styles based on design
principles,
Though there are design issues for the maker, they are
'styles' to the consumer as much as 'country cottage'
is .....

yet i read the underlying message to be: encourage
potters to examine what they are doing in a larger
context,rather than plod down the same old path
without questioning ....

i.e. worried about a dying art? crawl out of your
burrow and sniff the air, assess the landscape. There
is the tension between the conservative and the
experimental... to my mind, we need both.

I agree that inspiration and ideas come from places
other than functional studio pottery, and for most,
expanding horizons and makes for growth but then, so
do discoveries made in dedicated pursuit in the
studio.

potters can tend to be conservative because they are
dedicated to a medium. there are times when it is
freeing to realize that you can employ other
mediums... think about exploring large sculptural
forms that don't have to be fired and can be easily
toted , where slender extensions won't be prone to
breaking, etc... so there are plenty of times where
not only is it useful, but it is freeing and fun to
switch mediums....

many studio potters were and are also innovative
designers for industry. if you look at the 40s and 50s
when modernism and industrial design swept the
functional and decorative arts, you will find many
examples of those who did make the crossover, and
there are many fine examples of the influence they
had on style, design and work of the day.

as to the idea that no one realizes they are in
competition with the design and art
worlds.......anyone in business knows quite well that
they are not in competition with other potters.

and if we can combine good design with our wonderful,
tactile medium...that's a winner....in any part of the
design and art world.

Stephani Stephenson

kelly, quoting garth clark, wrote
"Those making decorative and functional wares are
facing competition
from the unstoppable contemporary design juggernaut.
Their markets are
either becalmed or shrinking, while design grows
exponentially. There
are many reasons for this. An old-world, conservative
rustic design
aesthetic in ceramics, at least for functional wares
-- great for the
country cottage but less suited to the city apartment
-- is one cause.
Another is that ceramists have not figured out that
they are in
competition not just with each other any more but with
the design and
art worlds as well. Instead of attending the annual
conference of NCECA,
they should flock to Design Week in Milan."

Stephani




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marci Boskie's Mama =^..^= on sat 29 mar 08

> Kelly Savino wrote:
>I am concerned that traditional potters ARE entrenched in "Fortress
>Ceramica", ignoring the worlds of fine art, science, design, industry,
>multi-media programs and all the non-potter others who are stepping in
>to pick up our ceramic materials and run with them... while we make our
>cottagey functional pots, struggle to make a living in what is basically
>a medieval business model. I feel like a lot of my noble ideas about the
>importance of the handmade are sentimental wishful thinking. I am having
>something like a crisis of faith, here, on the eve of my MFA show.


It can be frightening looking a few years down
the road and wondering
what will happen to the things you love and believe in
.We're in that same
crisis mode in the chinapainting world... only even more urgently .

I look around at our shows and see 75
% of the crowd 70 or older and
not seeing a lot of younger folks
interested in traditional china painting...
yet too many of our teachers tend to stick to the same old methods of
force feeding students things they dont want to do . ( " Hello, new
student. We are now going to paint wild roses for a month " ) ARGHHHHHH!
So I worry about what will happen to us in 10 ...
hell, 5 years down the road..
but, as someone said, the pendulum will swing back and
I already am
seeing in the art world a return to an acceptance ..even
an embracing of
realism . There was even an article about Bougeureau in the
latest Artist
magazine.....

I am not a college trained ceramist .
What I learned I learned from
other chinapainters and from reading. and screwing things up :O)
. I took a few art courses in college and got left in the dust
.For a long time
in colleges , it seems like the emphasis was
on not teaching anything because
you didnt want to squash a student's creativity . (
Just like you couldnt
discipline a child because you might hurt his self esteem ) ...
All that produced
is a bunch of floundering artists who didnt have a clue how
to get the
effects they wanted..

I am seeing a return to artists looking
for traditional ateliers where they
learn things like how to create shadow and volume and how to draw well...
the values that were dismissed for too long in the art schools..

It will be the same with pottery . People will realize that
you need the
technique to express the vision . ...that its easier to say what you
want to say if you know the artistic language ( technique) ...

I know youre worried that people will stop buying handcrafted
functional pieces because they can get something decent and cheap at
Walmart...BUT ... one thing I learned in the Clayart room was just how
sensual.. and yes, SEXY , a well -made mug can feel.. Paul
Lewing handed me one and I couldnt stop rubbing my hands over it.
It just FELT SOOOOOOOOOOOOO WONDERFUL!!!

There will always be those who go for price over quality ...
but there
will always be people who appreciate quality ...who love the look and
feel of sensual , gorgeous ... and useable pieces.....
and as long as those
people exist , well made functional pieces and the potters who create
them will survive

Do what you love, Kelly ... Build it and they will come ...
Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead, baby !
Thats my story and Im stickin to it :O)


Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =^..^=
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com


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Lee on sat 29 mar 08

Kelly,

Garth does not like independent studio potters who have no need for
middlemen. He can't make a living without artist "share croppers" to leec=
h
off of.

That East coaster makes little sense to us Midwesterners with our
toes firmly planted in the soil. He is irrelevant to me as a
potter. Us Jedi Knights aren't interested in "The Dark Side." ;^) When
he is a footnote, we will still be going strong.


--=20
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=F3g ar chul an tI=97tIr dlainn trina ch=E9ile"=97that is, "Th=
e land of
eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent within itself."
-- John O'Donohue

gayle bair on sat 29 mar 08

Kelly,
My spin on your "whole thing" is:
I think your current thinking is exactly where it should be right now.
Your development, viewpoint, progress has been stretched, jogged &
assaulted for the past 2 years.
You are at the end of your MFA but at a new beginning of your life &
career.
I think you will draw on what you have learned and experienced these
past 2 years
but more importantly will incorporate your empirical life experiences
and create a new
confident viewpoint that will continue to grow and improve.
I can't wait to see/read the next installation.... We have become
modern movie serials
cliffhangers and all!
Feel free to ignore/disagree/discount all of the above as these are
only my opinions.

Gayle Bair
Tucson AZ
Bainbridge Island WA
gayle@claybair.com
www.claybair.com




On Mar 28, 2008, at 9:59 PM, Kelly Savino wrote:

> I'm not sure I explained this whole thing very well.
>
> It's not really about graduation and what-now angst. Yes, I guess it
> feels sometimes like I bought an MFA ticket for the roller coaster,
> just
> as it shut down for the season. And I won't lie, I'd love to teach
> in a
> small college ceramics program, particularly one that values
> functional
> work as well as sculptural. But it's not really news to me that there
> are fewer and fewer of those, clayart has been discussing that for
> years, (and I recently read that a lot of students start in ceramics
> and
> wander off to sculpture or beyond, never to return.)...
Snip>

Bonnie Staffel on sat 29 mar 08

Kelly, I want to thank you for carrying us on your back through your =
trials
and joys of going back to school. I am sure there will be rewards for =
this
endeavor in the future, no matter what the "New Yorker" says. Can you
imagine back in 1951-52 when I was attending Cranbrook, all starry eyed =
in
my quest to become a studio potter - a rather new notion in those years.
Well, there was a brilliant talented sculptor student studying under the
best of Cranbrook tradition. I found out later that his only way of
supporting his family was to turn to the auto industry and "sculpt" new
automobile designs in clay. His name would pop up here and there in my
readings, but always in connection with his work for industry. I am sure
there are many more who over the years, have had to succumb to industry =
so
as to support the family.=20

As for me, I had to turn to production in order to earn a living in =
pottery,
but I gave myself two months a year to do my own creative thing. Now =
that I
am an ancient potter, I still have to produce to cover living expenses =
as
there are few who can attain a measure of success to build their castle =
atop
the hill. However, I would not trade my trip down the path I have =
followed
for any money in the world. I can at least still buy the groceries and =
pay
the bills for a one person household and also have a little put aside =
for
that time when I no longer can work. I find great reward in writing to =
the
forums, teaching via email and DVD's and having the respect of the =
community
in which I live.=20

While I have not met many of you Clayarters personally, I feel that I =
know
you through your writings. The photos of the NCECA conference brought =
some
surprises - hey you are all getting older just like me Who will =
follow
us when we are gone? =20

Another reference to a New York attitude when we had one fine gentleman =
come
to Toledo to jury our annual arts and craft show. This was also around =
1948
when I was working in low fire red ware. He remarked that reduction
stoneware was the only way to go and anything else was not worth the =
effort.
I think even the present day potters have proved that inference wrong =
with
all the gorgeous primitive and low fire work being made today.=20

There is a group in our town made up of the early artists who moved here =
as
well as younger eager art minded people who want to set up an art =
center,
and particularly to give the children the opportunity to learn and be
creative. We are in the process of writing our mission statement and I =
am
sure it will include embracing the local cultures as well as a learning
institution for everyone in the community. Our town was named a "Cool =
City"
last year so we really have to keep up what would be expected from such =
a
designation. I was the pioneer potter here back in the 60's and urged =
other
artist friends from southern Michigan and Ohio to move here as well as =
it
was a wonderful place to live and also have a built in customer base =
with
the summer people and tourists. It was always my dream to make our town =
into
an artists' colony but the townspeople just didn't buy into it as much =
as I
had anticipated. Of course, sports and yachting are the big interests =
but
our group hopes to compete with the introduction of our very own art =
center.

Congratulations, Kelly, for your achievement.=20

Bonnie Staffel

http://webpages.charter.net/bstaffel/
http://vasefinder.com/bstaffelgallery1.html
DVD Throwing with Coils and Slabs
DVD Introduction to Wheel Work
Charter Member Potters Council

Steve Slatin on sat 29 mar 08

Kelly --

My rambling here will probably rival yours, so
get something warm to drink and get ready ...
in one of the Discworld books, Cheery Littlebottom's
brother, Snorey, dies in a mining accident (well,
he is a dwarf).

The nature of the accident is that he dressed
in leather armor and went into the mines ahead
of the mass of miners with a lit candle to see if
there were dangerous gasses present. The
Littlebottom family wasn't at all upset when he
died, as he was fulfilling himself in the glorious
dwarfish tradition -- not using a 'modern'
safety lamp, but doing things in the traditional
way. A way known to be dangerous.

There's something about honoring the tradition
by doing what's always been done, even if it
doesn't have to be done that way any more,
that attracts. You hear about someone
who grows all his own food, slaughters his own
chickens, etc. and you can't help but admire
the guy. Some other guy is making authentic
reproductions of medieval armor, by hand, with
a forge for which his son pumps a bellows? Sign
me up to see it! But we know it's impractical.

They're lots of new techniques and technologies.
I gather that Clark's position is that the obsession
with traditional methods and techniques keeps
pottery in a backwater of the marketplace. At
the same time, non-potters are appropriating
the best of our materials, equipment, and technique,
and making totally new things with it for which
a handy profit can be made.

What bothers me about craft pottery as a business
is that I see people making and selling
gobs of things to be able to afford to buy a few
pieces a year they really admire, from people
with high skills who work all year to be able to
afford a few pieces of increasingly expensive,
high level pottery from folks who work and sell
all year to buy just a few very special pieces ...
well, you see where it goes.

If craft pottery becomes too much of a
backwater, the only buyers we'll have will
be the new students of pottery, who recognize
how difficult it is when they try to throw that
first bowl or cup or whatever, and find it
bewitching but difficult. The market's got
to be wider to support a healthy-sized
community of potters.

And the community may be getting smaller.
Universities seem to be dropping craft
pottery from the curriculum. Well, they're
in a business, and if the demand is insufficient,
they'll drop a foreign language, or cultural
anthropology ... I hardly see how pottery
should be different. Art departments continue
to do well; it seems that there's always demand
by people who have (or believe they have)
artistic ability and wish to develop it.

And it's not all a matter of it being hard
to make a living as a potter -- or at least
not exclusively so. It's hard to make it
as an actor, but the drama departments
are going strong. It's even harder to make
it in the film industry, but those departments
are growing. And who ever heard of
anyone with a good job outside academia
in the field of philosophy? And what's the
deal with specialty studies programs?
Does anyone think that IBM is hiring
based on a really good degree in Irish
studies?

Interest in a field will create a market
(though it may also flood it with your
competitors).

The (in my opinion) obsessive interest
many potters have with traditional methods
can discourage interest in our craft. The
work we do is physical -- something I have
no problem with. But digging clay by hand is
backbreaking labor, and I have to admit
I'm puzzled at why anyone would want to
do it. Admire Snorey Littlebottom all
you want, but hearing about his accident
wouldn't make me want to hunt for
methane gas with a candle.

So maybe we (all of us, not just you)
should learn from Clark's critique of pottery --
we should embrace new methods and
techniques and equipment, and strive
to increase our range, and our productivity.

And we don't have to give up our admiration
for the great work of the past, or the methods
used -- we just need to recognize that we
can do as well or better, and we should
when we can. After all, what's wrong with
revitalizing our craft?

Best wishes, and sorry for the ramble --
Steve Slatin


Kelly Savino wrote:
I'm not sure I explained this whole thing very well.

It's not really about graduation and what-now angst. Yes, I guess it
feels sometimes like I bought an MFA ticket for the roller coaster, just
as it shut down for the season. And I won't lie, I'd love to teach in a
small college ceramics program, particularly one that values functional
work as well as sculptural. But it's not really news to me that there
are fewer and fewer of those, clayart has been discussing that for
years, (and I recently read that a lot of students start in ceramics and
wander off to sculpture or beyond, never to return.)...

but yes, I suppose I have spent a lot of time perfecting skills for
which the world may have no need. I mean, think of the last batch of
people to become travel agents before travelocity.com... TV or appliance
repairmen, when the world began to pitch stuff and buy new... or real
estate agents, just before the housing bubble burst.

On the other hand, I was a potter with my own studio, selling work, for
a decade before I went to school. In a lot of ways, I am the same kind
of pasta coming out of Stephani's "extruder" as I was going in -- just
better at making stuff, firing stuff, building stuff, mixing stuff. If I
end up back in my studio making and selling better pots -- if I continue
to teach at the Potter's Guild instead of a college -- it will all be
good. My husband has health insurance, we don't especially need to be
rich and famous. I knew an MFA in ceramics wasn't going to be a big
career move, any more than my previous MA in Folklore/anthro/fine arts
was. (My pal at microsoft teased me about that one.. "Oh, yes, I can see
why you would need a graduate degree to get the corporate edge in a
field like (snicker) FOLKLORE".)

I was never in it for the big bucks. Right place, right time, right prof
encouraging me to do it.

More specifically, the articles are making me wonder about my
assumptions as a potter. Garth Clark seems to be encouraging us to step
away from our little fraternity, lest we miss opportunities and new
developments in the wider circle of art and craft. It reminds me a bit
of David Suzuki's environment lecture at NCECA... he said that we were
so busy thinking in (somewhat isolationist, traditional) "American"
ways, that we were missing the boat while other countries develop,
invent and patent alternative energies and look beyond a fossil fuel
economy to some potentially profitable new ways of doing things.

Clark seems to imply the same kind of thing about potters. Fine artists
in other media have begun to "poach" on our territory, and, unencumbered
by our traditional, potterly ideas about what is considered "cheating"
and what is "noble", they are breaking new ground and making work better
suited to design, the market and the modern world. In a story about Mark
Cecula in American Craft, Garth Clark says,

"Those making decorative and functional wares are facing competition
from the unstoppable contemporary design juggernaut. Their markets are
either becalmed or shrinking, while design grows exponentially. There
are many reasons for this. An old-world, conservative rustic design
aesthetic in ceramics, at least for functional wares -- great for the
country cottage but less suited to the city apartment -- is one cause.
Another is that ceramists have not figured out that they are in
competition not just with each other any more but with the design and
art worlds as well. Instead of attending the annual conference of NCECA,
they should flock to Design Week in Milan."

And Cecula points out, "...the craft studio model is becoming
increasingly impractical in economic terms, and ...younger audiences
favor the more urban, progressive look that industry often delivers." He
sees the present moment for ceramics as "the perfect storm, provided the
ceramics community can adjust to the realities of living and working in
the 21st century and risk venturing out into its choppy waters".

All the themes of clayart come to mind... worries over failing art
fairs, bennies for full time potters, worries over the aging customer
base, a search for methods of production easier on the joints. The
conversations in my seminars come to mind: design majors, sculptors,
printmakers, photographers, all well versed on other disciplines and
looking for the forward-cutting edge of their medium's technology, while
we in ceramics stay in our fortress, looking backward.

Later in the same issue of American Craft, Ezra Shales writes in
"Technophilic Craft" that ceramists need to come out of the "conceptual
closet" and reclaim the tools their predecessors "foreswore a hundred
years ago for the sake of John Ruskin and William Morris's ideology of
"handicraft"."

He suggests that if potters don't reconsider the manufacturing methods
of the 19th century (jigger and jolly, sledging of plaster and the
lathe) and simultaneously learn 21st century digital tools, "other
makers will encroach more deeply into their field".

He suggests -- and tell me, honestly, that you don't recognize these
themes from clayart -- three abstractions that he says are "bedeviling
handicraft".

1.) The idealization of the autonomous craftsperson.

Isn't that who we want to be? David Hendley, without a boss, firing his
own kiln and putting his kids through school on pots? If industry =
alienation (and Shales argues that it needn't) then the autonomous
potter is kind of a hero figure to all of us. But would I advise my kid
to be an artisan, today? With no bennies?

2.) The valorization of the autonomous object.

Isn't that what we obsess about, the pot that goes from our hand to the
hand/home/lip of the user? The one of a kind, hand made, noble pot?

3.) The criterion of "pleasure in work" as a measure of art.

We make it because we have to, because we love it, because our happiness
is somehow carried in the pot out into the world and translated by use
to the owner. It surely makes it important, rewarding work for the
maker, but does that mean it has significance to others?

Shales considers these "pivitol inhibitions" that will need to disappear
if craft education is ever to be liberated from "alternating between
self-righteousness, and victimization".

Ouch.

He talks about us seeing the manufactory in terms of "sanctimonious
speeches", and says the "cliche' of freedom" has become ingrained in
craft lore -- as if the craftsman-artist's inspired individuality "were
redemptive for society as a whole".

(He also finds it ironic that the idealization of the independent
craftsman lives on, primarily, in academic art schools.)

So what to make of all this? These truisms are all flags I have waved.
As if somehow my little backyard pots, tomatoes, eggs and bees have some
symbolic importance beyond my kitchen table, and will somehow improve
society, reverse the tide, and bring down factory-farming, styrofoam
choked landfills and all that is faceless and industrial.

It's not exactly a crisis, for me, in the normal sense of the word. I
will spend my days in pursuit of designing the perfect kefir crock for
my countertop, whether or not the world can be expected to care.
Somebody, somewhere will always buy my pots, and there will always be
people out there who want to learn to throw, or throw better. So it's
not an immediate, what-will-happen-when-I-graduate concern.

It's more like the first time I have considered how fundamentalist we
potters can be in our approach, our set of commandments, our dogma that
until now I have not questioned -- because "what do those people know?
They aren't potters..." .

I am surrounded by college kids, these days, MFA art students, and the
stuff I am reading makes me wonder whether we in ceramics spend enough
time looking ahead -- not at fashion, trend and whim, but at
possibilities and technologies that will change the course of ceramics,
as surely as bagged clay and the electric kiln did for my generation.

Even Janet Koplos at NCECA implied that ceramics needs to open up to the
larger art world. She doesn't believe there should BE more all-ceramics
galleries, shows, writers, etc -- because we're "preaching to the
choir". She considers it healthier for our work to be mixed in with
other examples of fine craft and art, to stand on its own merits with
folks who may not have the "insider information".

I don't know what any of this amounts to, except that I should be in bed
asleep instead of trying to figure all this out. I am up early tomorrow
to drive to EMU and teach my intro-to-studio-art-for-non-majors... who
come away from every clay, drawing, paint or print project with a new
appreciation for what is involved. Tomorrow, linocuts. I'm bringing
band-aids.

Thanks to anyone who read this far.

yours
Kelly in Ohio.. both boys at a scout sleepover, and I had a lovely quiet
dinner with Jeff and Molly at a little Indian restaurant tonight... last
night's inches of snow plopping off the pines in the sun today, rows of
good pots on my home studio shelves, awaiting a bisque firing and a ride
to school. My guild class semester ended with a potluck and crit, and
the new class begins next week.

______________________________________________________________________________
Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org

You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/

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---------------------------------
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Lee on sun 30 mar 08

> And we don't have to give up our admiration
> for the great work of the past, or the methods
> used -- we just need to recognize that we
> can do as well or better, and we should
> when we can. After all, what's wrong with
> revitalizing our craft?

Then you agree with Leach and Hamada. As Hamada said,
"You completely digest a tradition, and then you make something new."

The The Potter's Eye, Hewitt said something similar that he
learned from Cardew and Leach (as best as I can remember): In a
living tradition, the craftsman takes the tradition and makes it
relevant to his current society and times.

But it all begins with learning the tradition. And the
best way to do that is through a apprenticeship. Because there is a
whole range of subtle things you absorb that is cultural that supports
the craft. You are not only informed by culture, but also by
nature and the changing seasons, and of course, the materials provided
by nature.

It is essential to pay attention to the place and time to
make something that is relevant. Otherwise, you are just motivated
by the intellect and yourself. That is why Garth's ideas make
little sense to a Midwesterner who is working out of a tradition.


--=20
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=F3g ar chul an tI=97tIr dlainn trina ch=E9ile"=97that is, "T=
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue

Ron Roy on mon 31 mar 08

I don't believe you have to learn the tradition at all - in fact - in many
cases it becomes a trap.

When there were no books - that was the only way - and you did what was
done - inspite of the fact there were many limitations.

Times have changed - Steve is right - there is enough information to do it
on your own now and the freedom of that is wonderful.

RR



>> And we don't have to give up our admiration
>> for the great work of the past, or the methods
>> used -- we just need to recognize that we
>> can do as well or better, and we should
>> when we can. After all, what's wrong with
>> revitalizing our craft?
>
> Then you agree with Leach and Hamada. As Hamada said,
>"You completely digest a tradition, and then you make something new."
>
> The The Potter's Eye, Hewitt said something similar that he
>learned from Cardew and Leach (as best as I can remember): In a
>living tradition, the craftsman takes the tradition and makes it
>relevant to his current society and times.
>
> But it all begins with learning the tradition. And the
>best way to do that is through a apprenticeship. Because there is a
>whole range of subtle things you absorb that is cultural that supports
>the craft. You are not only informed by culture, but also by
>nature and the changing seasons, and of course, the materials provided
>by nature.
>
> It is essential to pay attention to the place and time to
>make something that is relevant. Otherwise, you are just motivated
>by the intellect and yourself. That is why Garth's ideas make
>little sense to a Midwesterner who is working out of a tradition.
>
>
>--
> Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
>http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
>
> "Ta tIr na n-=DBg ar chul an tI=F3tIr dlainn trina ch=C8ile"=F3that is, "T=
he
>land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
>within itself." -- John O'Donohue
>
>___________________________________________________________________________=
___
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
>http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.c=
om

Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0

Lee on mon 31 mar 08

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Taylor Hendrix wro=
te:
> Hey King Ron,
>
> I sure hope you are right and Lee is off his nut. I've no free time
> to hop over to apprenticeville, but I can sure as hell read.

Hey Taylor, court follower of his highness Lard Ron,

I AM a nut, but it is ridiculous to dismiss practical study in any
craft, whether it be in a University program, a traditional
apprenticeship or through residencies, workshops or classes and other
activities at a clay center.

As far as "free time" goes, it is a matter of priorities.
How much are you willing to give up for your craft? Tony C and PM
aren't fitting an MFA into "Free time."

Related to apprenticeships:

We just got back from visiting our friend Tomoe Katagiri.
She is my late Zen teacher's wife and my Zen robes sewing teacher.
She treats Jean and I as adopted by her. I will start up sewing again
after Jean flies back to Japan.

Tomoe says I have the longest record for not finishing an Okesa (I
started it when I left for Japan in '99 and didn't do another stitch
in Japan.) In her accented English, she said, "Lee, you are famous!"
I corrected her, saying,"I am immfamous!"

You can find info about her book here:

http://www.librarything.com/work/5127893/book/28416072

While we had tea, I helped her figure out her new
cellphone her oldest son insisted she carry. After that, I helped
her with her new Mac. I am supposed to go back a fix some things in
her house when Jean leaves. Last time I saw her, I helped her swap a
paper furnace filter for her expensive electrostatic one. She gave
me Irises for my yard. I showed her how to make Cornish Pasties. It
is all a part of being an apprentice.

So much about a living craft cannot be learned from a book.
Much in books that passes as "knowledge" is just information.

--=20
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=F3g ar chul an tI=97tIr dlainn trina ch=E9ile"=97that is, "T=
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue

Lee on mon 31 mar 08

=3D=3DOn Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 12:34 AM, Ron Roy wrote=
:

> I don't believe you have to learn the tradition at all - in fact - in man=
y
> cases it becomes a trap.

You don't HAVE to learn though a tradition, certainly. When
Leach speaks of us "not having a 'tap root'", he is correct about many
people's attitude, but not about the accessibility of having a
tradition to draw upon.

There is this same attitude about Zen, where folks think
they understand Zen practice from reading books. It is like
learning to dance or the violin from reading a book. You handicap
yourself by these limited sources of learning.

A plurality of knowledge sources is the most advantageous.
You should not feel threated by tradition, simply because you have no
actual knowledge about it. Actually, Kanjiro Kawaii, Hamada,
Shimaoka, all initially learned pottery at Tokyo Technical College.
If I remember correctly, when Hamada worked with Kawaii at Kyoto
Ceramic Institute, they made over 10,000 glaze tests. So, it is
absurd to think these folks Garth are critical of are
techno-illiterate. Folks simply are ignorant of the facts.

An aside: I love books! I live in the city cited as the
most literate city in America for 2007 (replaced Seattle.) Yesterday,
I bought a huge volume on the Chow Dog for my research on the origins
of the Akita dog. The Akita breed includes Mongolian dogs that were
brought to the Akita region beginning back in the 9th century. There
are photos of Chinese Chows, before the Brits and "there book
learning" or the mind set of "Mastering Pure Bred Dogs", effected
these dogs. They were not so "bonsaied", looking more like fluffy
akitas. There are examples of these fine dogs before modern idiots
got a hold of them.

The other book I bought was Robert Thurman's translation of
The Tibetan Book of The Dead, the Barohl Thodol. I have/had a copy
of this, but it is either still in boxes or in my son's possession.(I
gave it to him when he worked for the city morgue and was concerned
about the lack of respect he saw in his work, especially at
mortuaries. He said Jewish mortuaries were the most respectful of
the dead.)

I have a dozen books checked out, one audio book and a
dozen mp3 books on my player. I am currently following the work of
John O'donohue, especially related to Beauty. I have 3 books on hold.
I have to return the second book of our next president (3 people
have it on hold after me). I have it in Japan so just checked it out
here. Also due are O'Donodhue cassette tapes.

> When there were no books - that was the only way - and you did what was
> done - inspite of the fact there were many limitations.

There is no way books can replace learning by doing, learning
by working next to people who have mastered what you want to know.
You can learn/master the technical aspects of art from books, and if
you are gifted, you might not need any creative guidance. But
technical knowledge is the easy part and what folks who lack creative
ability have to depend upon.

On the otherhand, having the wealth of knowledge of all
the great traditions in no way makes us unable to open a book. The
thought of this attitude is hilarious, don't you think?

Actually, I see studio arts study and traditional study
as being complimentary and neither excludes the other. But in both
situations, you can learn from the life example of others.

The other great way to learn is in cooperative or clay
center situations. You get exposure to a great many different ways to
work and also feedback about what you are doing. These are the
tripod of learning which


> Times have changed - Steve is right

Yes, we worship change. Our society sufferes from ADD.

- there is enough information to do it
> on your own now and the freedom of that is wonderful.

Freedom is our great benefit but also our biggest
cross to bare. In order to develop any continuity in our work, we
have to impose self imposed limitations.

A traditional way of working can be started at any
time, as it has been here in the MidWest, as Tony mentioned, The
MacKenzie potters. Many who have studio arts degrees and traditional
experience.

If you want to rediscover a tradition or create one that
fits where you live, guidelines for doing so are:

1.) Pay attention to the cycle of nature and your surroundings.

2.) examine local, non-factory materials. Use them when you can.

3.) To learn about your place, study how the indigenous people
of your place lived in that place

4.) To know about the cycles of nature and the seasons, pay
attention to family farms.


At Shimaoka's 49 day memorial Ken Matsuzaki gave a speech
before his large photo, surrounded by flowers, as is the tradition in
Japan. All the other folks who spoke were elderly friends, city and
county fathers, but Matsuzaki spoke for all us Deshis/apprentices.

He said the most important aspect of his studies with
Shimaoka was working silently beside him, learning without any words
being said. At the dinner after the ceremony that Shimaoka's
daughter Yoshiko Fudeya held for the foreign students, we all talked
about this and we all agreed that the most important lessons we
learned from Shimaoka were wordless. From watching his life and its
example.



--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=F3g ar chul an tI=97tIr dlainn trina ch=E9ile"=97that is, "T=
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue

Taylor Hendrix on mon 31 mar 08

Hey King Ron,

I sure hope you are right and Lee is off his nut. I've no free time
to hop over to apprenticeville, but I can sure as hell read.

Taylor, in Rockport TX

On 3/30/08, Ron Roy wrote:
> I don't believe you have to learn the tradition at all - in fact - in many
> cases it becomes a trap.
>
> When there were no books - that was the only way - and you did what was
> done - inspite of the fact there were many limitations.
>
> Times have changed - Steve is right - there is enough information to do it
> on your own now and the freedom of that is wonderful.
...

Taylor Hendrix on tue 1 apr 08

Yo Lee, court jester and him what wears Zen colored glasses to all the parties,

Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't. This of course is a
debatable statement.

I don't agree with your previous statement about apprenticeship
(though you seem to broaden it considerably in your reply to me). It
may have been the best way a few hundred years ago, it may have been
the best for you, and it might be the best for a whole bushel of young
whippersnappers in the future, but it can't be the best for all. Have
you forgotten your Wendell Berry, man? "...going against me, i have
heard at times a deep harmony thrumming in the mixture and when they
ask me what i say i don't know. It is not the only or the easiest way
to come to the truth. It is one way."

I think that your 'Tradition" and Ron's "tradition" are not the same
things. This of course is a debatable statement.

Good wishes,

Taylor, in Rockport TX


On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Lee wrote:
...
> Hey Taylor, court follower of his highness Lard Ron,
>
> I AM a nut, but it is ridiculous to dismiss practical study in any
> craft, whether it be in a University program, a traditional
> apprenticeship or through residencies, workshops or classes and other
> activities at a clay center.
...

Lee on wed 2 apr 08

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Taylor Hendrix wro=
te:

> I don't agree with your previous statement about apprenticeship
> (though you seem to broaden it considerably in your reply to me). It
> may have been the best way a few hundred years ago, it may have been
> the best for you, and it might be the best for a whole bushel of young
> whippersnappers in the future, but it can't be the best for all.

Not the best or the only. The point is, that practical
hand skill is not best learned from a book. You can learn about
history from a book or other mental skills, but knowledge that depends
upon physical skill is best done under the supervision of someone who
has mastered it. Otherwise, there would only be written driving
tests and not practical tests in traffic or a test course.

> I think that your 'Tradition" and Ron's "tradition" are not the same
> things. This of course is a debatable statement.

Yes. My understanding is from living a tradtion. Your
Lord Ron's is from books. ;^)

--=20
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"Ta tIr na n-=F3g ar chul an tI=97tIr dlainn trina ch=E9ile"=97that is, "T=
he
land of eternal youth is behind the house, a beautiful land fluent
within itself." -- John O'Donohue

Taylor Hendrix on thu 3 apr 08

Hehe Lee,

The appellation is "King Ron", obviously a play on Ron's last name
rather than any pledge of loyalty. Mel is the "Mayor" but you didn't
vote for him. It would be like me calling you from now on "The
Resounding Gong" Lee. Get it? It's all just play (with a bit of
mischievous needling I admit.)

I meant that Ron writes "tradition" to mean a system followed
slavishly because no other system is to hand, and you possibly mean
"tradition" as a living, breathing way of life (which I get very very
much, Lee).

I learn pottery by doing, and then by watching...and I read whatever I
think can help me. This is not an apprenticeship. It is not best for
me. Ideal?...well.... Please don't get me wrong. No way should be
wrong if it is an earnest way, but the older apprentice model is too
inflexible for me, I have read too much e. e. cummings, and I still
have some damn can lights to wire in the kitchen.

Sorry this is so off thread, but that seems to happen.

Taylor, in Rockport TX

On 4/2/08, Lee wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Taylor Hendrix wrote:
... You can learn about
> history from a book or other mental skills, but knowledge that depends
> upon physical skill is best done under the supervision of someone who
> has mastered it.

...> Yes. My understanding is from living a tradtion. Your
> Lord Ron's is from books. ;^)
...

Ron Roy on wed 9 apr 08

I hate to spoil your party Lee but I had in mind the technical aspects of
pottery. Relying on traditional ways is a real handicap if the tradition is
not up to scratch. That can result in a very real limitation if you want to
be innovative.

There are many ways to learn a craft - best to understand what is to be
gained and lost with the different ways.

One of the great advantages of having workshops to go to - you get lots of
different approaches and you can choose what seems to suit you best.

I did not learn my craft only from books by the way? The technical part
came later - I wish I had been encouraged in that direction a lot sooner.
It opened up may more possibilities for me.

RR


> Not the best or the only. The point is, that practical
>hand skill is not best learned from a book. You can learn about
>history from a book or other mental skills, but knowledge that depends
>upon physical skill is best done under the supervision of someone who
>has mastered it. Otherwise, there would only be written driving
>tests and not practical tests in traffic or a test course.
>
>> I think that your 'Tradition" and Ron's "tradition" are not the same
>> things. This of course is a debatable statement.
>
> Yes. My understanding is from living a tradtion. Your
>Lord Ron's is from books. ;^)
>
>--
> Lee

Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0

Lee on wed 9 apr 08

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Ron Roy wrote:
> I hate to spoil your party Lee but I had in mind the technical aspects of
> pottery. Relying on traditional ways is a real handicap if the tradition is
> not up to scratch. That can result in a very real limitation if you want to
> be innovative.

Hate to bust your bubble Ron, but your fake conflict between
traditional and technical are totally false. It is as false as the
trumped up conflict between function and art. Folks stir this things
up to sell books and share cropper pots.

You can draw on both tradition and modern technical
information as did Tomimoto, Hamada, Kawaii, Kamoda and Shimaoka did.
Technical research in functional ceramics is at a very high level
in Japan.

The other issue is the fact that your are totally oblivious
to the technical knowledge perenial craftsmen have accumulated over
tens of thousands of years of trail and error. We should not
dismiss it with the label "traditional."

When you are only dependent on technical criteria, you
might as well forget handmade and buy plastic. Technical is only a
fraction of what is required to make pots that justify their
existence.


--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do
nothing." --Edmund Burke

claystevslat on wed 9 apr 08

Ron --

If you go back to the exchange you two
had of March 30- 31, you'll see that
you wrote that you 'don't believe you
have to learn the tradition at all'
to make good pottery.

Lee replied, "You don't HAVE to learn
though a tradition" (but it's the best
way) because "you handicap yourself by
these limited sources of learning."

Some part of
the dispute here may be between your
thought (which I share) that one doesn't
need to absorb an existing, ancient
tradition to do something releveant
for today, and Lee's emphasis on
learning THROUGH traditional methods.

Let's bear in mind that Lee has told
us he has some learning disorder --
dyslexia, or possibly something more --
and that he writes often about how the
best way to learn this or that or the
other thing is directly from a teacher,
sitting at their side, being an apprentice.

With one small caveat, I agree with Lee.
I believe that the best -- possibly the only
way -- FOR LEE -- to learn anything is through
an apprenticeship-like environment. Lee
is likely a demonstration/repitition learner.
He has to see it, over and over, and get it into
his hands repeatedly, and then he 'gets' it. (He
expands on his own experience to presume
that everyone else learns best the same way
that he does.)

But, as modern cognitive science has
shown us, there are lots of different
ways to learn. Some learn through example,
some only with their own hands, some through
reading, some through listening.

(An aside -- I learned to play the flute
by reading a 16-page pamphlet. I already
played clarinet, and could pick out, with
one finger, a melody from sheet music on
a piano, but the flute was totally new to
me. It's possible! I learned to alter
rims through a poster from Portland NCECA.
It's not a big deal if you're accustomed
to learning from written material, which
is how I learn best.)

Learn the tradition/learn through *the*
tradition -- a small change in words, but
it's led to quite a few posts. And as
for Lee's snarky comments -- well, consider
the source.

Best wishes -- Steve Slatin


--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Ron Roy wrote:
>
> I hate to spoil your party Lee but I had in mind the technical
aspects of
> pottery. Relying on traditional ways is a real handicap if the
tradition is
> not up to scratch. That can result in a very real limitation if you
want to
> be innovative.
>
> There are many ways to learn a craft - best to understand what is
to be
> gained and lost with the different ways.
>
> One of the great advantages of having workshops to go to - you get
lots of
> different approaches and you can choose what seems to suit you best.
>
> I did not learn my craft only from books by the way? The technical
part
> came later - I wish I had been encouraged in that direction a lot
sooner.
> It opened up may more possibilities for me.
>
> RR
>
>
> > Not the best or the only. The point is, that practical
> >hand skill is not best learned from a book. You can learn about
> >history from a book or other mental skills, but knowledge that
depends
> >upon physical skill is best done under the supervision of someone
who
> >has mastered it. Otherwise, there would only be written driving
> >tests and not practical tests in traffic or a test course.
> >
> >> I think that your 'Tradition" and Ron's "tradition" are not the
same
> >> things. This of course is a debatable statement.
> >
> > Yes. My understanding is from living a tradtion.
Your
> >Lord Ron's is from books. ;^)
> >
> >--
> > Lee

Lee on thu 17 apr 08

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
> It seems to me that we should learn from whatever and whenever we can.
> Taking anything as it is without trying to ascertain if it has value for us
> is folly.

That is exactly my point.

Folkways and modern technology are equally valid.
They have different strengths. The old ways are great for innovation
and coming up with new things. Industrial methods are good for
repeating these new discoveries. For example, Currie grids are good
to discover new glazes. Materials analysis and glaze calculation are
good for control.

We have a prejudice toward factory technique and methods, but it
does not invalidate technologies that have been developed over 10s of
thousands of years.


> If we potters are going to be relevant to our societies we should - at
> least to some degree - react to current ways of using what we make.

"First, you completely digest the tradition. Then you
create something new through your finger tips." Digestion is
where you begin.
>
> In fact any philosophy that does not take into account current advances
> leaves itself open to becoming less and less useful.

Once we acknowledge that we are not the pinnacle of
knowledge, but are only exactly in the middle of all the knowledge of
the past, and all the knowledge that will come in the future, then we
can accept all knowldege with humility.

> We live in a changing world - I for one find that a challenge.

Cancer is the epitome of unrestrained change. So is the
damage we have done to our environment. We have depended to heavily
on the perspecitive of "mastery" and not enough on integration,
learning from the environment.

You need a stable foundation to work out from. We have
many new expressions of old forms and many new uses of old forms.
Exciting things always happen when cultures meet. If one is flexible
enough to learn.

--
Lee, a Mashiko potter in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that
can be counted counts." --(Sign hanging in Einstein's office at
Princeton)

Ron Roy on thu 17 apr 08

Thanks Steve,

Any help in understanding this is helpful.

It seems to me that we should learn from whatever and whenever we can.
Taking anything as it is without trying to ascertain if it has value for us
is folly.

If we potters are going to be relevant to our societies we should - at
least to some degree - react to current ways of using what we make.

In fact any philosophy that does not take into account current advances
leaves itself open to becoming less and less useful.

We live in a changing world - I for one find that a challenge.

RR

>Ron --
>
>If you go back to the exchange you two
>had of March 30- 31, you'll see that
>you wrote that you 'don't believe you
>have to learn the tradition at all'
>to make good pottery.
>
>Lee replied, "You don't HAVE to learn
>though a tradition" (but it's the best
>way) because "you handicap yourself by
>these limited sources of learning."
>
>Some part of
>the dispute here may be between your
>thought (which I share) that one doesn't
>need to absorb an existing, ancient
>tradition to do something releveant
>for today, and Lee's emphasis on
>learning THROUGH traditional methods.
>
>Let's bear in mind that Lee has told
>us he has some learning disorder --
>dyslexia, or possibly something more --
>and that he writes often about how the
>best way to learn this or that or the
>other thing is directly from a teacher,
>sitting at their side, being an apprentice.
>
>With one small caveat, I agree with Lee.
>I believe that the best -- possibly the only
>way -- FOR LEE -- to learn anything is through
>an apprenticeship-like environment. Lee
>is likely a demonstration/repitition learner.
>He has to see it, over and over, and get it into
>his hands repeatedly, and then he 'gets' it. (He
>expands on his own experience to presume
>that everyone else learns best the same way
>that he does.)
>
>But, as modern cognitive science has
>shown us, there are lots of different
>ways to learn. Some learn through example,
>some only with their own hands, some through
>reading, some through listening.
>
>(An aside -- I learned to play the flute
>by reading a 16-page pamphlet. I already
>played clarinet, and could pick out, with
>one finger, a melody from sheet music on
>a piano, but the flute was totally new to
>me. It's possible! I learned to alter
>rims through a poster from Portland NCECA.
>It's not a big deal if you're accustomed
>to learning from written material, which
>is how I learn best.)
>
>Learn the tradition/learn through *the*
>tradition -- a small change in words, but
>it's led to quite a few posts. And as
>for Lee's snarky comments -- well, consider
>the source.
>
>Best wishes -- Steve Slatin
>
>
>--- In clayart@yahoogroups.com, Ron Roy wrote:
>>
>> I hate to spoil your party Lee but I had in mind the technical
>aspects of
>> pottery. Relying on traditional ways is a real handicap if the
>tradition is
>> not up to scratch. That can result in a very real limitation if you
>want to
>> be innovative.
>>
>> There are many ways to learn a craft - best to understand what is
>to be
>> gained and lost with the different ways.
>>
>> One of the great advantages of having workshops to go to - you get
>lots of
>> different approaches and you can choose what seems to suit you best.
>>
>> I did not learn my craft only from books by the way? The technical
>part
>> came later - I wish I had been encouraged in that direction a lot
>sooner.
>> It opened up may more possibilities for me.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>
>> > Not the best or the only. The point is, that practical
>> >hand skill is not best learned from a book. You can learn about
>> >history from a book or other mental skills, but knowledge that
>depends
>> >upon physical skill is best done under the supervision of someone
>who
>> >has mastered it. Otherwise, there would only be written driving
>> >tests and not practical tests in traffic or a test course.
>> >
>> >> I think that your 'Tradition" and Ron's "tradition" are not the
>same
>> >> things. This of course is a debatable statement.
>> >
>> > Yes. My understanding is from living a tradtion.
>Your
>> >Lord Ron's is from books. ;^)
>> >
>> >--
>> > Lee
>
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Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0