jonathan edward byler on mon 31 mar 08
I have been tesing copper reds recently and came across a recipe on
clay art from ron roy from about 2001 I think. It was a formula that
was part of some tests done to make pete's red craze less.
I tried it out and it came out a miserable failure. the Jeff's red
that was in this kiln came out o.k. so I don't think it was the
firing. The color of this came out looking a deep brown/maroon,
muddy and washed out. is it most likely that there is not enough
copper in it (.25%) or is there some other likely source of trouble?
it is rather difficult to measure out .25 grams accurately, so I
thought that this might be the problem.
any thoughts?
-jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
Ron Roy on tue 1 apr 08
Hi Jon,
That was probably a line blend to see when the crazing stopped - good
information for the next set of tests.
If you would like to try again send me the revised recipe and the original
and I'll try another tact. Do you have some spodumene?
RR
>I have been tesing copper reds recently and came across a recipe on
>clay art from ron roy from about 2001 I think. It was a formula that
>was part of some tests done to make pete's red craze less.
>
>I tried it out and it came out a miserable failure. the Jeff's red
>that was in this kiln came out o.k. so I don't think it was the
>firing. The color of this came out looking a deep brown/maroon,
>muddy and washed out. is it most likely that there is not enough
>copper in it (.25%) or is there some other likely source of trouble?
>it is rather difficult to measure out .25 grams accurately, so I
>thought that this might be the problem.
>
>any thoughts?
>
>-jon
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
jonathan edward byler on tue 1 apr 08
ron, I'm pretty sure I have a bag of spodumene around in the glaze =20
room. The recipe I have was part of some tests that you were doing =20
with ingeborg foco back in 1999-2001 or so. I found it and some =20
others in the clayart archives
The recipe is as follows:
ron roy copper red test #204A (for ingeborg foco, 2001)
G-200 Potash Feldspar - 28
frit 3134 - 23
whiting - 9
epk - 18
silica 22
=96=96=96=96=96=96=96
tin oxide 1-3% (added 3%)
copper carb .25%
the original:
Pete's Copper Red (
Custer feldspar 73.8
gerstley borate 10.2
whiting 11.1
flint 4.9
=96=96=96=96=96=96=96=96
bentonite 1
copper carbonate .30
tin oxide 1
epsom salts .15
#204A didn't craze and has a nice surface, but the color is liver =20
brown with only one or two spots of red (about 1mm across). =20
According to the archive clayart info that I read, this was supposed =20
to be a nice looking glaze, which Is why I am more inclined to blame =20
my mixing or my firing. oddly, the jeffs red in this particular =20
firing came out looking pretty good, except that there are numerous =20
white flecks that look like something crystalized out on cooling.
I am concerned about putting barium in our glazes, as it makes =20
getting rid of waste that much more difficult. can strontium be =20
substituted and get the same color effects, or is there no good =20
substitue? Also, Is there any info out there about how the various =20
oxides affect copper reds? Li2O, SrO, BaO, MgO? most of the books I =20=
have read don't talk much about the effects caused in reduction. =20
there are only brief and rather uninformative descriptions.
thanks,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849=
Ingeborg Foco on tue 1 apr 08
Hi Jon,
Ron ran some numbers for me back in 2001 I think, to help me fix the
crazing of Pete's red. I actually still use both, the original Pete's Red
which is a spectacular red, albeit crazed and the 204 A which at times is
maroon deep red, dark blue and other interesting variations. I have an
architectural wall hanging on my web site and the glaze is 204 A.
I just fired a number of pots with the original recipe and they came out a
bright beautiful red.
Best wishes,
Ingeborg
www.thepottersworkshop.com
On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> That was probably a line blend to see when the crazing stopped - good
> information for the next set of tests.
>
> If you would like to try again send me the revised recipe and the original
> and I'll try another tact. Do you have some spodumene?
>
> RR
>
> >I have been tesing copper reds recently and came across a recipe on
> >clay art from ron roy from about 2001 I think. It was a formula that
> >was part of some tests done to make pete's red craze less.
> >
> >I tried it out and it came out a miserable failure. the Jeff's red
> >that was in this kiln came out o.k. so I don't think it was the
> >firing. The color of this came out looking a deep brown/maroon,
> >muddy and washed out. is it most likely that there is not enough
> >copper in it (.25%) or is there some other likely source of trouble?
> >it is rather difficult to measure out .25 grams accurately, so I
> >thought that this might be the problem.
> >
> >any thoughts?
> >
> >-jon
>
> Ron Roy
> RR#4
> 15084 Little Lake Road
> Brighton, Ontario
> Canada
> K0K 1H0
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
> http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
>
--
Sincerely,
Ingeborg
www.thepottersworkshop.com
Ron Roy on mon 7 apr 08
Hi Jon,
I've lowered the expansion quite a bit - I'm pretty sure it will not craze n=
ow.
I did it with Custer but I can do it with G200.
Let me know if it needs some adjustments - mix a 1000 gram batch to get an
acurate test - and add in the copper and tin
RR Revised Petes Red -to stop crazing
-----------------
CUSTER SPAR......... 25.50
AUSI SPOD........... 32.00
F3134............... 13.00
WHITING............. 11.50
EPK................. 2.50
SILICA.............. 15.50
BENTONITE........... 2.00
----------
102.00
FORMULA & ANALYSIS
------------------
*CaO........ .52
MnO2....... .00
*Li2O....... .26
*MgO........ .01
*K2O........ .09
*Na2O....... .12
Fe2O3...... .00
TIO2....... .00
B2O3....... .14
AL2O3...... .45
SiO2....... 3.35
P2O5....... .00
RATIO 7.41 Was 7.52
EXPAN 411.31 Was 621.26
WEIGHT 310.87 Was 326.26
>ron, I'm pretty sure I have a bag of spodumene around in the glaze
>room. The recipe I have was part of some tests that you were doing
>with ingeborg foco back in 1999-2001 or so. I found it and some
>others in the clayart archives
>
>The recipe is as follows:
>
>ron roy copper red test #204A (for ingeborg foco, 2001)
>G-200 Potash Feldspar - 28
>frit 3134 - 23
>whiting - 9
>epk - 18
>silica 22
>
>=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1
>tin oxide 1-3% (added 3%)
>copper carb .25%
>
>
>the original:
>
>Pete's Copper Red (
>
>Custer feldspar 73.8
>gerstley borate 10.2
>whiting 11.1
>flint 4.9
>=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1
>bentonite 1
>copper carbonate .30
>tin oxide 1
>epsom salts .15
>
>#204A didn't craze and has a nice surface, but the color is liver
>brown with only one or two spots of red (about 1mm across).
>According to the archive clayart info that I read, this was supposed
>to be a nice looking glaze, which Is why I am more inclined to blame
>my mixing or my firing. oddly, the jeffs red in this particular
>firing came out looking pretty good, except that there are numerous
>white flecks that look like something crystalized out on cooling.
>
>I am concerned about putting barium in our glazes, as it makes
>getting rid of waste that much more difficult. can strontium be
>substituted and get the same color effects, or is there no good
>substitue? Also, Is there any info out there about how the various
>oxides affect copper reds? Li2O, SrO, BaO, MgO? most of the books I
>have read don't talk much about the effects caused in reduction.
>there are only brief and rather uninformative descriptions.
>
>
>thanks,
>
>jon
>
>
>jon byler
>3-D Building Coordinator
>Art Department
>Auburn University, AL 36849
Ron Roy
RR#4
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
jonathan byler on tue 8 apr 08
Hi Ron,
Thanks for sending me that revision. I will give it a try in the =20
next firing. We tend to have g-200 instead of custer around here, =20
but I should be able to use hyperglaze to sub the g-200 for the =20
custer without any trouble. What is the difference between ausi =20
(australian?) spodumene, and any other kind? I'm not 100% sure what =20
kind we have. If everything works out, then all we have to do is =20
make up a good name.
best regards,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Apr 7, 2008, at 10:56 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> I've lowered the expansion quite a bit - I'm pretty sure it will =20
> not craze now.
>
> I did it with Custer but I can do it with G200.
>
> Let me know if it needs some adjustments - mix a 1000 gram batch to =20=
> get an
> acurate test - and add in the copper and tin
>
> RR Revised Petes Red -to stop crazing
> -----------------
> CUSTER SPAR......... 25.50
> AUSI SPOD........... 32.00
> F3134............... 13.00
> WHITING............. 11.50
> EPK................. 2.50
> SILICA.............. 15.50
> BENTONITE........... 2.00
> ----------
> 102.00
> FORMULA & ANALYSIS
> ------------------
> *CaO........ .52
> MnO2....... .00
> *Li2O....... .26
> *MgO........ .01
> *K2O........ .09
> *Na2O....... .12
> Fe2O3...... .00
> TIO2....... .00
> B2O3....... .14
> AL2O3...... .45
> SiO2....... 3.35
> P2O5....... .00
>
> RATIO 7.41 Was 7.52
> EXPAN 411.31 Was 621.26
> WEIGHT 310.87 Was 326.26
>
>
>
>
>> ron, I'm pretty sure I have a bag of spodumene around in the glaze
>> room. The recipe I have was part of some tests that you were doing
>> with ingeborg foco back in 1999-2001 or so. I found it and some
>> others in the clayart archives
>>
>> The recipe is as follows:
>>
>> ron roy copper red test #204A (for ingeborg foco, 2001)
>> G-200 Potash Feldspar - 28
>> frit 3134 - 23
>> whiting - 9
>> epk - 18
>> silica 22
>>
>> =F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1
>> tin oxide 1-3% (added 3%)
>> copper carb .25%
>>
>>
>> the original:
>>
>> Pete's Copper Red (
>>
>> Custer feldspar 73.8
>> gerstley borate 10.2
>> whiting 11.1
>> flint 4.9
>> =F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1
>> bentonite 1
>> copper carbonate .30
>> tin oxide 1
>> epsom salts .15
>>
>> #204A didn't craze and has a nice surface, but the color is liver
>> brown with only one or two spots of red (about 1mm across).
>> According to the archive clayart info that I read, this was supposed
>> to be a nice looking glaze, which Is why I am more inclined to blame
>> my mixing or my firing. oddly, the jeffs red in this particular
>> firing came out looking pretty good, except that there are numerous
>> white flecks that look like something crystalized out on cooling.
>>
>> I am concerned about putting barium in our glazes, as it makes
>> getting rid of waste that much more difficult. can strontium be
>> substituted and get the same color effects, or is there no good
>> substitue? Also, Is there any info out there about how the various
>> oxides affect copper reds? Li2O, SrO, BaO, MgO? most of the books I
>> have read don't talk much about the effects caused in reduction.
>> there are only brief and rather uninformative descriptions.
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> jon
>>
>>
>> jon byler
>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>> Art Department
>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>
> Ron Roy
> RR#4
> 15084 Little Lake Road
> Brighton, Ontario
> Canada
> K0K 1H0
>
> ______________________________________________________________________=20=
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://=20
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at =20
> melpots2@visi.com
Hank Murrow on sun 13 apr 08
Dear Jon;
The main difference between the spodumenes mentioned in your post is
that the TANCO spodumene is based on amblygonite ores, and so it has
a significant amount of Phosphorus...... which contributes nicely to
red colors from iron. My Shino uses Low Melt Spodumene from TANCO,
for instance.
Cheers, Hank Murrow
On Apr 13, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> The Australian seems to be the most common - it sparkels - if it is
> greyer
> it may be Tanko - they are very close.
>
> RR
>
>> Hi Ron,
>>
>> Thanks for sending me that revision. I will give it a try in the
>> next firing. We tend to have g-200 instead of custer around here,
>> but I should be able to use hyperglaze to sub the g-200 for the
>> custer without any trouble. What is the difference between ausi
>> (australian?) spodumene, and any other kind? I'm not 100% sure what
>> kind we have. If everything works out, then all we have to do is
>> make up a good name.
Ron Roy on sun 13 apr 08
Hi Jon,
The Australian seems to be the most common - it sparkels - if it is greyer
it may be Tanko - they are very close.
RR
>Hi Ron,
>
>Thanks for sending me that revision. I will give it a try in the
>next firing. We tend to have g-200 instead of custer around here,
>but I should be able to use hyperglaze to sub the g-200 for the
>custer without any trouble. What is the difference between ausi
>(australian?) spodumene, and any other kind? I'm not 100% sure what
>kind we have. If everything works out, then all we have to do is
>make up a good name.
>
>best regards,
>
>jon
>
>
>jon byler
>3-D Building Coordinator
>Art Department
>Auburn University, AL 36849
>
>On Apr 7, 2008, at 10:56 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> I've lowered the expansion quite a bit - I'm pretty sure it will
>> not craze now.
>>
>> I did it with Custer but I can do it with G200.
>>
>> Let me know if it needs some adjustments - mix a 1000 gram batch to
>> get an
>> acurate test - and add in the copper and tin
>>
>> RR Revised Petes Red -to stop crazing
>> -----------------
>> CUSTER SPAR......... 25.50
>> AUSI SPOD........... 32.00
>> F3134............... 13.00
>> WHITING............. 11.50
>> EPK................. 2.50
>> SILICA.............. 15.50
>> BENTONITE........... 2.00
>> ----------
>> 102.00
>> FORMULA & ANALYSIS
>> ------------------
>> *CaO........ .52
>> MnO2....... .00
>> *Li2O....... .26
>> *MgO........ .01
>> *K2O........ .09
>> *Na2O....... .12
>> Fe2O3...... .00
>> TIO2....... .00
>> B2O3....... .14
>> AL2O3...... .45
>> SiO2....... 3.35
>> P2O5....... .00
>>
>> RATIO 7.41 Was 7.52
>> EXPAN 411.31 Was 621.26
>> WEIGHT 310.87 Was 326.26
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ron, I'm pretty sure I have a bag of spodumene around in the glaze
>>> room. The recipe I have was part of some tests that you were doing
>>> with ingeborg foco back in 1999-2001 or so. I found it and some
>>> others in the clayart archives
>>>
>>> The recipe is as follows:
>>>
>>> ron roy copper red test #204A (for ingeborg foco, 2001)
>>> G-200 Potash Feldspar - 28
>>> frit 3134 - 23
>>> whiting - 9
>>> epk - 18
>>> silica 22
>>>
>>> =F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1
>>> tin oxide 1-3% (added 3%)
>>> copper carb .25%
>>>
>>>
>>> the original:
>>>
>>> Pete's Copper Red (
>>>
>>> Custer feldspar 73.8
>>> gerstley borate 10.2
>>> whiting 11.1
>>> flint 4.9
>>> =F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1=F1
>>> bentonite 1
>>> copper carbonate .30
>>> tin oxide 1
>>> epsom salts .15
>>>
>>> #204A didn't craze and has a nice surface, but the color is liver
>>> brown with only one or two spots of red (about 1mm across).
>>> According to the archive clayart info that I read, this was supposed
>>> to be a nice looking glaze, which Is why I am more inclined to blame
>>> my mixing or my firing. oddly, the jeffs red in this particular
>>> firing came out looking pretty good, except that there are numerous
>>> white flecks that look like something crystalized out on cooling.
>>>
>>> I am concerned about putting barium in our glazes, as it makes
>>> getting rid of waste that much more difficult. can strontium be
>>> substituted and get the same color effects, or is there no good
>>> substitue? Also, Is there any info out there about how the various
>>> oxides affect copper reds? Li2O, SrO, BaO, MgO? most of the books I
>>> have read don't talk much about the effects caused in reduction.
>>> there are only brief and rather uninformative descriptions.
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>>
>>> jon
>>>
>>>
>>> jon byler
>>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>>> Art Department
>>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>>
>> Ron Roy
>> RR#4
>> 15084 Little Lake Road
>> Brighton, Ontario
>> Canada
>> K0K 1H0
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> ________
>> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
>> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots2@visi.com
>
>___________________________________________________________________________=
___
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
>http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.c=
om
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
jonathan byler on mon 14 apr 08
Thanks for the info. in the mean time, I figured out a way around
the spodumene problem by using lithium carb and some other stuff to
make the recipe according to the unity formula ron provided:
g-200 feldspar 24
frit 3134 12
whiting 10
lithium carb 5.5
bentonite 2.0
epk 21.5
silica 25
---------------------------
copper carb .35
tin oxide 1.0
I took a few liberties and rounded one or to things ever so slightly
to keep things easier to measure. what's a 1/4% between friends, at
least when it comes to silica and epk, which each make up over 20% of
the formula? I have doubts about the consistency of the materials
anyway, and firing variations could probably account for much bigger
problems. I am doing a firing on tues or weds. hopefully we will
have some results to show on thursday or friday.
unless ron has something else taking its place name wise, it is
called (at least for now) "ron roy red #206" If it works out well,
I'll figure out something more permanent.
-jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Apr 13, 2008, at 5:22 PM, Hank Murrow wrote:
> Dear Jon;
>
> The main difference between the spodumenes mentioned in your post is
> that the TANCO spodumene is based on amblygonite ores, and so it has
> a significant amount of Phosphorus...... which contributes nicely to
> red colors from iron. My Shino uses Low Melt Spodumene from TANCO,
> for instance.
>
> Cheers, Hank Murrow
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
>> Hi Jon,
>>
>> The Australian seems to be the most common - it sparkels - if it is
>> greyer
>> it may be Tanko - they are very close.
>>
>> RR
>>
>>> Hi Ron,
>>>
>>> Thanks for sending me that revision. I will give it a try in the
>>> next firing. We tend to have g-200 instead of custer around here,
>>> but I should be able to use hyperglaze to sub the g-200 for the
>>> custer without any trouble. What is the difference between ausi
>>> (australian?) spodumene, and any other kind? I'm not 100% sure what
>>> kind we have. If everything works out, then all we have to do is
>>> make up a good name.
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
Ron Roy on sun 20 apr 08
Hi Jonathan,
Just a warning - that much lithium carb can lead to really bad fit problems
with some clays - like crazing and shivering on the same pot.
I don't usually recommend using more than 2%.
I would appreciate it if you left my name out - thanks!
RR
>Thanks for the info. in the mean time, I figured out a way around
>the spodumene problem by using lithium carb and some other stuff to
>make the recipe according to the unity formula ron provided:
>
>g-200 feldspar 24
>frit 3134 12
>whiting 10
>lithium carb 5.5
>bentonite 2.0
>epk 21.5
>silica 25
>---------------------------
>
>copper carb .35
>tin oxide 1.0
>
>
>I took a few liberties and rounded one or to things ever so slightly
>to keep things easier to measure. what's a 1/4% between friends, at
>least when it comes to silica and epk, which each make up over 20% of
>the formula? I have doubts about the consistency of the materials
>anyway, and firing variations could probably account for much bigger
>problems. I am doing a firing on tues or weds. hopefully we will
>have some results to show on thursday or friday.
>
>unless ron has something else taking its place name wise, it is
>called (at least for now) "ron roy red #206" If it works out well,
>I'll figure out something more permanent.
>
>-jon
>
>
>
>jon byler
>3-D Building Coordinator
>Art Department
>Auburn University, AL 36849
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Edouard Bastarache Inc. on mon 21 apr 08
Steve,
I have always known lithium carbonate is only
slightly soluble :
"Solubility in water: poor (1.3 g/100 ml)"
from :
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:8RWYKRv1ptMJ:www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics1109.htm+lithium+carbonate+water-solubility&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=5Gis revido,(A la revoyure)Edouard BastaracheSpertesperantistoSorel-TracyQuebechttp://www.pshcanada.com/Toxicology.htmhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/30058682@N00/http://www.flickr.com/photos/potier/20321056/http://perso.orange.fr/smart2000/livres.htmhttp://myblogsmesblogs.blogspot.com/
jonathan byler on mon 21 apr 08
How would that be different from having the lithium added via
spodumene? is not one molecule of lithium the same as another? or
am I missing something?
I tried this out and it comes out a pretty decent deep red, with lots
of "cat's hair???" streaking. I used 2% tin this time, will try 1%
next time. did a 1000g batch, which made mixing it all up a bit
easier. There was no crazing or shivering, although I have not
performed a boiling water/cold water test. I'll try to post pictures
somewhere eventually.
It seems that this, like all the other copper reds I have tried, is
rather sensitive to thickness of application. I can't really see any
way around this.
Thanks for the help ron, I will be sure and heed your wishes and name
this after something/someone else.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Apr 20, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Just a warning - that much lithium carb can lead to really bad fit
> problems
> with some clays - like crazing and shivering on the same pot.
>
> I don't usually recommend using more than 2%.
>
> I would appreciate it if you left my name out - thanks!
>
> RR
>
>> Thanks for the info. in the mean time, I figured out a way around
>> the spodumene problem by using lithium carb and some other stuff to
>> make the recipe according to the unity formula ron provided:
>>
>> g-200 feldspar 24
>> frit 3134 12
>> whiting 10
>> lithium carb 5.5
>> bentonite 2.0
>> epk 21.5
>> silica 25
>> ---------------------------
>>
>> copper carb .35
>> tin oxide 1.0
>>
>>
>> I took a few liberties and rounded one or to things ever so slightly
>> to keep things easier to measure. what's a 1/4% between friends, at
>> least when it comes to silica and epk, which each make up over 20% of
>> the formula? I have doubts about the consistency of the materials
>> anyway, and firing variations could probably account for much bigger
>> problems. I am doing a firing on tues or weds. hopefully we will
>> have some results to show on thursday or friday.
>>
>> unless ron has something else taking its place name wise, it is
>> called (at least for now) "ron roy red #206" If it works out well,
>> I'll figure out something more permanent.
>>
>> -jon
>>
>>
>>
>> jon byler
>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>> Art Department
>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>
> Ron Roy
> 15084 Little Lake Road
> Brighton, Ontario
> Canada
> K0K 1H0
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
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Steve Slatin on mon 21 apr 08
Jon --
One of the things that happens with
lithium when you apply it in the form
of lithium carb is -- because it is
soluble -- permeates the clay,
carried in solution by the water.
It affects the expansion of the
'skin' of the clay, and then there's
less lithium remaining in the glaze
layer. (This is a simplified
description, and does not address
the chemical involvement of the glaze
and clay at the juncture of the two
materials, which seems to occur with
all glazes.)
Spodumene, being not so very
soluble, remains in suspension in
a glaze (unless it hardpans, in which
case you can't apply it anyway) and
remains in the glaze on the surface
of the pot.
This may account for the occasional
failure of substitutions involving
spodumene to perform as expected.
Lithium is a wonderful ingredient
though, and it has many special
characteristics -- it creates
glaze-suspended crystals without
requiring slow cooling, it encourages
wonderful, bright colors -- it just
doesn't always behave itself.
Best wishes -- Steve Slatin
--- On Mon, 4/21/08, jonathan byler wrote:
> From: jonathan byler
> Subject: Re: copper reds (ron roy #204A)
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Monday, April 21, 2008, 11:03 AM
> How would that be different from having the lithium added
> via
> spodumene? is not one molecule of lithium the same as
> another? or
> am I missing something?
>
> I tried this out and it comes out a pretty decent deep red,
> with lots
> of "cat's hair???" streaking. I used 2% tin
> this time, will try 1%
> next time. did a 1000g batch, which made mixing it all up
> a bit
> easier. There was no crazing or shivering, although I have
> not
> performed a boiling water/cold water test. I'll try to
> post pictures
> somewhere eventually.
>
> It seems that this, like all the other copper reds I have
> tried, is
> rather sensitive to thickness of application. I can't
> really see any
> way around this.
>
> Thanks for the help ron, I will be sure and heed your
> wishes and name
> this after something/someone else.
>
>
> jon byler
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Ron Roy on tue 22 apr 08
Hi Jon,
The main difference is the partial solubility of the carbonate - the most
soluble of the carbonates we use - time and temperature may be a factor -
also whats in your water - and certainly the type of clay.
Maybe the lithium ions are migrating during the melt - maybe just in the
drying - or both?
The solubility is just not a factor with petalite, spodumene etc. Not sure
about all frits - some have solubility issues
David Hewitt and I did some dilatometer experiments to try and find out
what was happening but we could draw no conclusions.
Sure would like to know what is going on.
I'm going to stop clayart for a week starting tomorrow so I won't be here
to answer anything till May 5 or so.
RR
>How would that be different from having the lithium added via
>spodumene? is not one molecule of lithium the same as another? or
>am I missing something?
>
>I tried this out and it comes out a pretty decent deep red, with lots
>of "cat's hair???" streaking. I used 2% tin this time, will try 1%
>next time. did a 1000g batch, which made mixing it all up a bit
>easier. There was no crazing or shivering, although I have not
>performed a boiling water/cold water test. I'll try to post pictures
>somewhere eventually.
>
>It seems that this, like all the other copper reds I have tried, is
>rather sensitive to thickness of application. I can't really see any
>way around this.
>
>Thanks for the help ron, I will be sure and heed your wishes and name
>this after something/someone else.
>
>
>jon byler
>3-D Building Coordinator
>Art Department
>Auburn University, AL 36849
>
>On Apr 20, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Ron Roy wrote:
>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> Just a warning - that much lithium carb can lead to really bad fit
>> problems
>> with some clays - like crazing and shivering on the same pot.
>>
>> I don't usually recommend using more than 2%.
>>
>> I would appreciate it if you left my name out - thanks!
>>
>> RR
>>
>>> Thanks for the info. in the mean time, I figured out a way around
>>> the spodumene problem by using lithium carb and some other stuff to
>>> make the recipe according to the unity formula ron provided:
>>>
>>> g-200 feldspar 24
>>> frit 3134 12
>>> whiting 10
>>> lithium carb 5.5
>>> bentonite 2.0
>>> epk 21.5
>>> silica 25
>>> ---------------------------
>>>
>>> copper carb .35
>>> tin oxide 1.0
>>>
>>>
>>> I took a few liberties and rounded one or to things ever so slightly
>>> to keep things easier to measure. what's a 1/4% between friends, at
>>> least when it comes to silica and epk, which each make up over 20% of
>>> the formula? I have doubts about the consistency of the materials
>>> anyway, and firing variations could probably account for much bigger
>>> problems. I am doing a firing on tues or weds. hopefully we will
>>> have some results to show on thursday or friday.
>>>
>>> unless ron has something else taking its place name wise, it is
>>> called (at least for now) "ron roy red #206" If it works out well,
>>> I'll figure out something more permanent.
>>>
>>> -jon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> jon byler
>>> 3-D Building Coordinator
>>> Art Department
>>> Auburn University, AL 36849
>>
>> Ron Roy
>> 15084 Little Lake Road
>> Brighton, Ontario
>> Canada
>> K0K 1H0
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________________
>> ________
>> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>>
>> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
>> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>>
>> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
>> melpots2@visi.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
>http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Neon-Cat on wed 23 apr 08
Here's an interesting article that might move our thought along or down new
paths or offer partial answers to the questions in this thread:
"Lithium in Ceramics", Charles Merivale, presented 9-11-02 in N.C. at the
CerMa/ACS Southeast Regional Joint Meeting. See:
http://www.amalgamet.com/Lithium%20in%20Ceramics.doc
(The site may ask for an enter network user ID and password. Just enter
anything and click three times and the paper will come up. If not, I can
post the entire paper in a subsequent email.)
Reference materials (this thread):
Lithium Carbonate, Li2CO3:
Lithium content ~ 19%.
Spodumene, LiAlSiO6:
Lithium content ~ 4-8%.
Marian
Neon-Cat Ceramics
jonathan byler on wed 23 apr 08
thanks for that link. I only got through the first page so far, but
I stumbled across something very interesting. that is that the
melting point of lithium carbonate is significantly lower than that
of spodumene, which if I understand correctly would make it active
much earlier in the glaze melt. I will be reading more of this later.
Does anyone have any other info like this for other oxides/
carbonates, that would give more insight into how they can be
substituted for one another, etc?
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Apr 23, 2008, at 1:55 PM, Neon-Cat wrote:
> Here's an interesting article that might move our thought along or
> down new
> paths or offer partial answers to the questions in this thread:
> "Lithium in Ceramics", Charles Merivale, presented 9-11-02 in N.C.
> at the
> CerMa/ACS Southeast Regional Joint Meeting. See:
> http://www.amalgamet.com/Lithium%20in%20Ceramics.doc
> (The site may ask for an enter network user ID and password. Just
> enter
> anything and click three times and the paper will come up. If not,
> I can
> post the entire paper in a subsequent email.)
>
> Reference materials (this thread):
>
> Lithium Carbonate, Li2CO3:
> Lithium content ~ 19%.
>
> Spodumene, LiAlSiO6:
> Lithium content ~ 4-8%.
>
> Marian
> Neon-Cat Ceramics
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
Ivor and Olive Lewis on thu 24 apr 08
Dear Jonathan Byler,
You ask about the properties of the materials we use. At a basic art =
students level this can be found in the Frank Hamer epic, "The Potters =
Dictionary of Materials and Techniques" . For a more comprehensive view =
the standard would be set by CRC."Handbook of Chemistry and Physics" or =
Kaye and Laby, "Tables of Physical and Chemical Constants". For more =
about the actual chemical behaviour Greenwood and Earnshaw, "Chemistry =
of the Elements" 2nd Edition may be the most up to date. P. J. Durrant, =
"General and Inorganic Chemistry" though somewhat dated still covers the =
field pretty well.
Experience tells me that they should be found in most respectable State =
Reference Libraries and because of their universal application. be on =
the shelves of university libraries.
Just to help with your specific inquiry, Alkali Metal Carbonates (Li, =
K, Na), once molten, are solvents of silica, silicate minerals and other =
silicate compounds. They are all to some degree water soluble.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
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