mel jacobson on sat 19 apr 08
have not been in this loop, but...
concrete blocks are the perfect answer for a
kiln base. the most important aspect is
loading height. make the kiln door the perfect
height for bending in and loading. too high, and
your back is ruined for life.
too low, same thing. think of the long reach with
that top shelf. is it easy?
the best topper for a the block base
that i have found is `expanded metal`...you
know, that diamond cut metal that is used
for stairs, bases for trailers etc.
the metal will give you a flat surface to start
the first course of bricks, and the most ignored
part of building a kiln: IT LIFTS THE KILN OFF A
SOLID SURFACE. THE KILN BREATHS FROM THE
BOTTOM. it will fire much better.
add a spiral pipe stack, lined with kaowool
flue liners, dipped in itc 100 and away you
go.
film and stories are starting to arrive at my door.
david hendley sent his on a `hard drive`, so we
will have the film of his kiln and construction pure.
nice thought. some people just know how to do
things right.
bill schran's chapter on kiln shelves is fabulous.
vince is doing `everything you have ever wanted
to know about arches`....will that be perfect or what?
the concept of sharing a book, bylines, ideas, is working
out to be much better than i ever thought.
the variety of ideas, concepts and knowledge is fabulous.
and, for sure, the more quality ideas and people involved
the better.
mel
from minnetonka:
website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
clayart site:
http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
Vince Pitelka on mon 21 apr 08
Mark Cortright wrote:
"I did not like getting
jumped on for info sharing earlier but on this one where Vince old boy you
are off base-way off. Yes cinder blocks can be a poor choice like in Paul
Herman's story with the wood kiln expanding up hill pushing on the chimney .
You just need to use ones head on how materials are used. Building on wet
slabs or even dry ones you have to think about keeping the heat away from
the slab. You can blow up wet pots as well as wet slabs. One can crunch
cinder blocks and the mythbusters can most likely blow them up as well-but
they make great cheap foundations and work well if used with thought. 30
plus years of firing on cinder blocks (never with the block holes up)with
zero negative results tells me that that they work just fine.. You also can
burn your fingers on hot pots so be careful out there."
Hi Mark -
Well, Shane's response was a lot more graceful than yours. As Shane said, I
guess you and I will just agree to disagree on this. You have always built
with cinder blocks on their sides, and I have never done that and see no
reason to do that, and have always seen far more reason to build with the
holes facing upwards, especially with the variable quality of cinder blocks
today. We have both built a lot of kilns and neither of us has ever had one
fail. I have never seen any advantage in having "toe-holes" or storage
space in the cinder block holes.
No point in saying I am "way off base" on this Mark. We just have two
different opinions. My sole reason for being persistent in how I think
block kiln foundations should be laid is that I don't want to see anyone's
kiln foundation fail. Obviously there are plenty of kilns built with the
blocks on their sides. I clearly remember cinder blocks always being very
solid and firm. Now, I can't say that anymore, so I don't think it is wise
to place that much weight on blocks on their sides.
This is just my own opinion based on what I believe to be sound
consideration of possible failure. I have never seen one fail, thankfully,
and I don't ever want to see one fail, so I will continue to build kilns
with the blocks laid as they do it in the constructing biz, and I will
continue to advocate that method, because it is a sure thing. In all the
kilns I have ever built, helped build, or seen built with the blocks face-up
(holes facing up), I have never seen a single failure or a single down-side
to laying the blocks with the holes facing up.
Mike Pearce is an old friend, and probably the most talented potter to ever
set foot in Humboldt County. I had forgotten that he and Steve Hyman were
partners in that kiln, but thanks for pointing it out to me Marky old boy.
- Vinnie old boy
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Mark Cortright on mon 21 apr 08
I agree whole heartily with you Mel on the use of cinder blocks for kiln
foundations. The string on this is way over the top for me-come on guys get
real.Need hip boots to read some of that c--p. My car kiln has them on there
sides with over 2,000 fires on them with falling cracking or exploding .I
built a fast fire salt kiln with them on end after reading Mel's CM
articile a few years back. You can see that use of them here on the salt
kiln on page 2 of my flicker page
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23813860@N06/page2/
As Mel said put some heavy expanded metal down and now I would add some
cement board to keep air intrusion down as well on top of that metal.This is
how the salt kiln in above photos was built. In the 15 or so kilns I have
built or been part of building cinder blocks where used in most all of them
and never on the side with holes up like in masonary construction. They are
just to handy for toe holds and running steel bar's or angle thru and for
storage to be wasted as one poster says to do. Yes you can explode a wet
slab as Vince's freind did. My salt kiln Partner was one of those guys
(Micheal Pearce) in Vince's story (Vinnie left him out) as memories fade
with the years for all of us. Mike said the slab was wet as can get out and
with the rush to fire caboom- I know of two stories just like that one.Now
if it where up on blocks it would have been fine. I did not like getting
jumped on for info sharing earlier but on this one where Vince old boy you
are off base-way off. Yes cinder blocks can be a poor choice like in Paul
Herman's story with the wood kiln expanding up hill pushing on the chimney .
You just need to use ones head on how materials are used. Building on wet
slabs or even dry ones you have to think about keeping the heat away from
the slab. You can blow up wet pots as well as wet slabs. One can crunch
cinder blocks and the mythbusters can most likely blow them up as well-but
they make great cheap foundations and work well if used with thought. 30
plus years of firing on cinder blocks (never with the block holes up)with
zero negative results tells me that that they work just fine.. You also can
burn your fingers on hot pots so be careful out there.
Mark Cortright
www.liscomhillpottery.com
jonathan byler on mon 21 apr 08
Mel,
If you don't already have it, a serious discussion of the different
types of refractory materials would be a good addition. Specifically
focusing on the different types of IFB's and hardbricks (including
the effects of composition, insulation properties, porosity, heat
duty, etc. etc) would be helpful I think. There is not enough
technical literature about this that is readily available to most
potters/sculptors/ceramists/whathaveyou.
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Apr 19, 2008, at 3:32 AM, mel jacobson wrote:
> have not been in this loop, but...
> concrete blocks are the perfect answer for a
> kiln base. the most important aspect is
> loading height. make the kiln door the perfect
> height for bending in and loading. too high, and
> your back is ruined for life.
> too low, same thing. think of the long reach with
> that top shelf. is it easy?
>
> the best topper for a the block base
> that i have found is `expanded metal`...you
> know, that diamond cut metal that is used
> for stairs, bases for trailers etc.
> the metal will give you a flat surface to start
> the first course of bricks, and the most ignored
> part of building a kiln: IT LIFTS THE KILN OFF A
> SOLID SURFACE. THE KILN BREATHS FROM THE
> BOTTOM. it will fire much better.
>
> add a spiral pipe stack, lined with kaowool
> flue liners, dipped in itc 100 and away you
> go.
>
> film and stories are starting to arrive at my door.
> david hendley sent his on a `hard drive`, so we
> will have the film of his kiln and construction pure.
> nice thought. some people just know how to do
> things right.
>
> bill schran's chapter on kiln shelves is fabulous.
> vince is doing `everything you have ever wanted
> to know about arches`....will that be perfect or what?
>
> the concept of sharing a book, bylines, ideas, is working
> out to be much better than i ever thought.
>
> the variety of ideas, concepts and knowledge is fabulous.
> and, for sure, the more quality ideas and people involved
> the better.
> mel
>
> from minnetonka:
> website http://www.visi.com/~melpots/
> clayart site:
> http://www.visi.com/~melpots/clayart.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
> You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
> subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here: http://
> www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
> Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at
> melpots2@visi.com
pdp1@EARTHLINK.NET on wed 23 apr 08
Hi Shane, Vince, all...
Seems to me...
For a tiny effort, one can always drill Holes through the 'sides' of the
'cells', or Holes which one modifies into an inverted 'U", of these hollow
Concrete Block, and, run the Block upright, and
achieve Air circulation in the otherwise enclosed foundation area.
Or, also, just run them on their 'sides' but remember that an even
distribution
of weight or loading is important, and, if need be, use Mortar to acheive
it. That ( among other things) is what Mortar does.
Try not to use defective Block to begin with...too...
You will have no 'broken' Block then.
Phil
l v
----- Original Message -----
From: "shane mickey"
vince
thanks for thinking my comments were kind, i try to be
levelheaded these days, what with politics being crazy
and our general society out of wack!. anyway i agree
that proper floor thickness cures all these problems.
NOW FOR THE BIG PART!!!!! call it ironic
or what have you. i have a friend who was my assistant
when i buid kilns (economy forced me to let him go)
anyway he is rebuiding achimney for a lady here at penland
and he got the stack down and low and behold one of the block
were cracked and broken, i inspected it and it was a used block,
whew! shane is still correct about those block on their side, then
over at linda mcfarlings salt kiln he noticed that one of her blocks
is also cracked!!!! well that does it vince! blocks facing up the
way they were meant to go! its just to easy to do it in a safe manner
so i dont have to fret over whether that kiln i built two years ago
somewhere far away from home is still standing! plus not having to
go back and fix it would be a bonus. i am on board vince!
shane mickey
kiln building and design services
shane mickey on wed 23 apr 08
vince
thanks for thinking my comments were kind, i try to be
levelheaded these days, what with politics being crazy
and our general society out of wack!. anyway i agree
that proper floor thickness cures all these problems.
NOW FOR THE BIG PART!!!!! call it ironic
or what have you. i have a friend who was my assistant
when i buid kilns (economy forced me to let him go)
anyway he is rebuiding achimney for a lady here at penland
and he got the stack down and low and behold one of the block
were cracked and broken, i inspected it and it was a used block,
whew! shane is still correct about those block on their side, then=20
over at linda mcfarlings salt kiln he noticed that one of her blocks
is also cracked!!!! well that does it vince! blocks facing up the=20
way they were meant to go! its just to easy to do it in a safe manner
so i dont have to fret over whether that kiln i built two years ago=20
somewhere far away from home is still standing! plus not having to=20
go back and fix it would be a bonus. i am on board vince!
shane mickey
kiln building and design services
Steve Slatin on thu 24 apr 08
Vince --
I believe at this point the real
question for the community of the
faithful is whether someone who
has accepted the vertical cinder
block as their personal savior
may be admitted into the kingdom
of heaven if they do not subscribe
to the doctrine of immaculate
bat-pinning.
Best -- Steve Slatin
--- On Thu, 4/24/08, Vince Pitelka wrote:
> Thanks for that Shane. It is good to know of some actual
> situations that
> substantiate my intuition about cinder blocks on their
> sides in kiln
> foundations. Hopefully most of the people who have been
> following this
> thread will read your messages, and those who have been
> clinging with
> religious zeal to horizontal holes will see the light and
> become reborn to
> the ways of the Church of the Vertical Cinder Block Holes,
> and will accept
> Vertical-Hole-Cinder-Block-Placement as their Personal Kiln
> Savior.
>
> Sorry about that. Hope it doesn't offend anyone. I
> couldn't resist.
> - Vince
>
> Vince Pitelka
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
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Mark Cortright on thu 24 apr 08
Vince said
>Hi Mark -
>Well, Shane's response was a lot more graceful than yours. As Shane said, I
>guess you and I will just agree to disagree on this. You have always built
>with cinder blocks on their sides, and I have never done that and see no
>reason to do that, and have always seen far more reason to build with the
>holes facing upwards, especially with the variable quality of cinder blocks
>today. We have both built a lot of kilns and neither of us has ever had one
>fail. I have never seen any advantage in having "toe-holes" or storage
>space in the cinder block holes.
>
>No point in saying I am "way off base" on this Mark. We just have two
>different opinions. My sole reason for being persistent in how I think
>block kiln foundations should be laid is that I don't want to see anyone's
>kiln foundation fail. Obviously there are plenty of kilns built with the
>blocks on their sides. I clearly remember cinder blocks always being very
>solid and firm. Now, I can't say that anymore, so I don't think it is wise
>to place that much weight on blocks on their sides.
>
>This is just my own opinion based on what I believe to be sound
>consideration of possible failure. I have never seen one fail, thankfully,
>and I don't ever want to see one fail, so I will continue to build kilns
>with the blocks laid as they do it in the constructing biz, and I will
>continue to advocate that method, because it is a sure thing. In all the
>kilns I have ever built, helped build, or seen built with the blocks face-up
>(holes facing up), I have never seen a single failure or a single down-side
>to laying the blocks with the holes facing up.
>
>Mike Pearce is an old friend, and probably the most talented potter to ever
>set foot in Humboldt County. I had forgotten that he and Steve Hyman were
>partners in that kiln, but thanks for pointing it out to me Marky old boy.
>- Vinnie old boy
>
Vince,
I am not known for being graceful only straight forward-thanks for the
compliment as its very true
I agree on disagreeing as my experience is exactly opposite of yours. As I
get older I seem to know less which is humbling. What works for me may not
work for others but I like to share what works for me so others can see if
it works for them. In many of these questions posed here on this board the
right answer is there is no right answer only many different ways to the
same results.Maybe the better answer for both of us would be it works both
ways which it does.I'm of the mind that either way will work as that's what
my experience has shown . I do agree that working with Mike Pearce in the
last 10 years especially with our salt kiln-he has one great talent with
form. Marky
Mark Cortright
www.liscomhillpottery.com
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
Vince Pitelka on thu 24 apr 08
Shane Mickey
"well that does it vince! blocks facing up the
way they were meant to go! its just to easy to do it in a safe manner
so i dont have to fret over whether that kiln i built two years ago
somewhere far away from home is still standing! plus not having to
go back and fix it would be a bonus. i am on board vince!"
Thanks for that Shane. It is good to know of some actual situations that
substantiate my intuition about cinder blocks on their sides in kiln
foundations. Hopefully most of the people who have been following this
thread will read your messages, and those who have been clinging with
religious zeal to horizontal holes will see the light and become reborn to
the ways of the Church of the Vertical Cinder Block Holes, and will accept
Vertical-Hole-Cinder-Block-Placement as their Personal Kiln Savior.
Sorry about that. Hope it doesn't offend anyone. I couldn't resist.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Richard Aerni on thu 24 apr 08
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:21:10 -0500, Vince Pitelka wrote:
>Shane Mickey
>"well that does it vince! blocks facing up the
>way they were meant to go! its just to easy to do it in a safe manner
>so i dont have to fret over whether that kiln i built two years ago
>somewhere far away from home is still standing! plus not having to
>go back and fix it would be a bonus. i am on board vince!"
>
>Thanks for that Shane. It is good to know of some actual situations that
>substantiate my intuition about cinder blocks on their sides in kiln
>foundations. Hopefully most of the people who have been following this
>thread will read your messages, and those who have been clinging with
>religious zeal to horizontal holes will see the light and become reborn to
>the ways of the Church of the Vertical Cinder Block Holes, and will accept
>Vertical-Hole-Cinder-Block-Placement as their Personal Kiln Savior.
>
>Sorry about that. Hope it doesn't offend anyone. I couldn't resist.
>- Vince
>
Is this where someone says "Beware false prophets!" ??
sorry about that...I couldn't resist...hope it didn't offend anyone...
Richard
>Vince Pitelka
>Appalachian Center for Craft
>Tennessee Tech University
>vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
>http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
>
>______________________________________________________________________________
>Clayart members may send postings to: clayart@lsv.ceramics.org
>
>You may look at the archives for the list, post messages, change your
>subscription settings or unsubscribe/leave the list here:
http://www.acers.org/cic/clayart/
>
>Moderator of the list is Mel Jacobson who may be reached at melpots2@visi.com
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