jonathan byler on mon 9 jun 08
Kelly,
If you are handy with metal, burners, at least the power burner type, =20=
are a piece of cake to build, no need to spend thousands on them =20
alone. If you have specific questions, I would be glad to explain =20
or give pictures about how they should go together. I have worked on =20=
a few different types of these, and have noticed a few things that =20
can be done during construction of the burner that can make it easier =20=
to tweak, such as how to install easily replaceable orifices to =20
switch from natural gas to propane, etc. If you have any experience =20
welding, it gets even easier, since you don't need to find a friend =20
to weld any bits and pieces for you. - but even better, maybe you =20
can find some nice used ones for cheap. I have heard arguments from =20
Vince, that power burners and soda kilns don't mix, but I have heard =20
from others who have built and run a few soda kilns in their day, =20
that power burners are all that they ever used. When we finally get =20
the chimney stack approved and built, I will report back on our =20
experiences here running power burners on a soda kiln.
as far as design, If you want the most bang for your buck, a catenary =20=
design doesn't seem to leave as much stacking space in the kiln as a =20
nice squarish boxed down draft will. The conventional wisdom that I =20
have seen on materials used seems to be that if you want the kiln to =20
last, use hardbricks for the interior, preferably something like an =20
EMPIRE=96S from harbison-walker. the high alumina (super duty, iirc) =20=
hardbricks, I have been told by vince, and others, are more prone to =20
spalling. If your fuel is expensive, it might be wiser to do soft-=20
brick or castable interior walls, since you will save a fair bit on =20
fuel costs doing that. if you are concerned about being a carbon-=20
yeti, this is probably a good thing too. Someone ought to do a =20
comparison, of what is more expensive in the long run, long lived =20
hardbrick + higher fuel costs, or shorter lived softbrick + lower =20
fuel costs...
best of luck with your kiln,
jon
jon byler
3-D Building Coordinator
Art Department
Auburn University, AL 36849
On Jun 9, 2008, at 8:27 PM, Hank Murrow wrote:
> On Jun 9, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Kelly Savino wrote:
>
>> One of the projects I am thinking about involves turning my MFA show
>> sales into a small soda kiln. I know how to build the caternary arch
>> kind, like the salt kiln we built at EMU, and my folks are happy to
>> have
>> me build it at their cottage.
>>
>> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you
>> start?
>> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
>> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
>
> Well, Kelly;
>
> I have had a lot of experience with catenary designs(though decades
> ago), and I would not recommend them for extended life. the problem
> with them is that they pinch the flame just at the top of the
> bagwall, creating a hot spot, and you find yourself trying to get to
> cone 8 in the bottom and the top while the middle is cone 10. In
> addition, the kilns do not last as long, because this hot zone
> weakens the catenary arch and the expansion of the brick narrows the
> gap more each firing.
>
> The only reason I can find to use a catenary design is that there is
> little or no welding necessary. I know that you can do the welding or
> find help to do it, so why not build a kiln with straight walls and a
> nice arch? BTW, I often use a very shallow catenary curve for such
> arches, instead of a roman type. I also prefer ring arch construction
> over the bonded type, as it is so easy to adjust and repair when =20
> needed.
>
> Vince is convinced that hard brick is best throughout the chamber,
> but I have had good performance with thin wall castables backed with
> fiber.
>
> Cheers, Hank
Lee Love on mon 9 jun 08
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 5:40 PM, Kelly Savino wrote:
>
>
> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you start?
> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
I am with Olsen on this: buy your shelves first. Build the kiln
around the shelves.
I bought 12 12X24 silcarb shelves from Maren Kloppmann that are
almost brand new. I am going to fire the soda kiln she use to fire
of a mutual friiend's in Stillwater. She hasn't fired it in years,
since when she lived in Stillwater. Only reached cone 8 after
having the flue rebuilt by Donovan. I think the blowers are too
big. They are off of the large gas kilns that used to be at the
UofMn. I am doing cone 1 and cone 6 terra sig. Electric with
shells first, but then cone 1 and bizen influenced cone 6. The kiln
should reach those temps easily. Then I will do cone 10.
see Maren's work here: http://www.marenkloppmann.com/
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Kelly Savino on mon 9 jun 08
Got home late last night from the national camporee -- 5000 girl scouts
in attendance, 104F heat index ... it was 99F the morning we rolled up
our tents to leave. But everyone had a marvelous time. There's something
magical about a gathering of little girls. They are instantly friends
with each other, and exude confidence, cooperation and optimism. Like
boy scout camp without the tribal "lord of the flies" factor.
I drove 900 miles round trip. Others offered to drive but the drivers
seat was the only one without sleeping bags and camping gear packed in
he foot well ;0) The girls sang and laughed and played word games all
the way there... slept all the way home!
I picked up the last of my pots today at EMU and turned in my keys,
which feels very final. It kind of felt like school is
home-away-from-home and emu folks are family... and then one day they
take away your keys and you have to leave. It's weird.
But there are lists a mile long of house projects neglected for two
years, as they never made the top priority list. I'll start as soon as I
get through the unpacking and laundry form camp.
One of the projects I am thinking about involves turning my MFA show
sales into a small soda kiln. I know how to build the caternary arch
kind, like the salt kiln we built at EMU, and my folks are happy to have
me build it at their cottage.
If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you start?
I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
Yours
Kelly
tired, happy and sunburned
http://www.primalpotter.com
Hank Murrow on mon 9 jun 08
On Jun 9, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Kelly Savino wrote:
> One of the projects I am thinking about involves turning my MFA show
> sales into a small soda kiln. I know how to build the caternary arch
> kind, like the salt kiln we built at EMU, and my folks are happy to
> have
> me build it at their cottage.
>
> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you
> start?
> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
Well, Kelly;
I have had a lot of experience with catenary designs(though decades
ago), and I would not recommend them for extended life. the problem
with them is that they pinch the flame just at the top of the
bagwall, creating a hot spot, and you find yourself trying to get to
cone 8 in the bottom and the top while the middle is cone 10. In
addition, the kilns do not last as long, because this hot zone
weakens the catenary arch and the expansion of the brick narrows the
gap more each firing.
The only reason I can find to use a catenary design is that there is
little or no welding necessary. I know that you can do the welding or
find help to do it, so why not build a kiln with straight walls and a
nice arch? BTW, I often use a very shallow catenary curve for such
arches, instead of a roman type. I also prefer ring arch construction
over the bonded type, as it is so easy to adjust and repair when needed.
Vince is convinced that hard brick is best throughout the chamber,
but I have had good performance with thin wall castables backed with
fiber.
Cheers, Hank
Mike on tue 10 jun 08
>>Is there an argument for or against cats for soda I should consider,
first?<<
Personally, I'd never use cats for soda. Aside from the problems you'd
have to deal with from PETA, having to build with hard brick (those
claws would wreak havok on soft brick and fiber), and the extra large
hole you'd have to make in the kiln for the introduction of cats,
there's the issue of how much soda can even be had from a cat in the
first place. Perhaps Ron or Ivor have have some source materials they
could point us to, I must admit I wouldn't know where to start looking.
Mike
(I'm so sorry I just couldn't resist. I haven't slept much the past two
nights. I know it's in bad taste. I don't hate cats, really. Bad, bad
Mike!!)
Mike
in Taku, Japan
www.karatsupots.com
karatsupots.etsy.com
karatsupots.blogspot.com
blogs.yahoo.co.jp/karatsupots
Kelly Savino ????????:
>
> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you start?
> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
>
> Yours
> Kelly
> tired, happy and sunburned
>
>
>
> http://www.primalpotter.com
>
>
gary navarre on tue 10 jun 08
Congratulations Kelly, you survived camp and college.
Starting a kiln with two grand is a challenge. The cement pad is gonna be a quarter of that and the cost of angle iron for support a chunk of change even if scrap. With decent safe burners a couple bunches of hundred dollar bills would be in order. Now the brick, hard or soft? I don't know much about soft but a pallet of 456 hard run about $700, might be less near you because of more industry. So where to start would be design and unless I'm mistaken the catenary shapes enclose the greatest volume with the least amount of surface area, which would imply fewer brick needed to build a larger chamber. Another advantage to the shape is it needs little if any angle iron so that saves cash for the metal burners. A gravel foundation is not popular but has functioned well for hundreds of years before now rather costly cement with re-bar. I got mine raking it up off the road and from the abandon gravel pit down to Peter's. I suppose a base of cinder block would
make it so you don't have to bend over or crawl in and out but really, how many times a year are you gonna fire. I'm probably only firing twice (with wood) so a bit of stoop labor is inconsequential especially considering all the other design efficiency aspects I included. Besides it's good to get down on my knees once in a while, keeps me humble. Good luck and stay in there eh!
Gary Navarre
Navarre Pottery
Navarre Enterprises
Norway, Michigan, USA
http://public.fotki.com/GindaUP/
http://www.youtube.com/GindaUP
--- On Mon, 6/9/08, Kelly Savino wrote:
> From: Kelly Savino
> Subject: 5000 girl scouts and kiln building question
> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
> Date: Monday, June 9, 2008, 5:40 PM
> Got home late last night from the national camporee -- 5000
> girl scouts
> in attendance, 104F heat index ... it was 99F the morning
> we rolled up
> our tents to leave. But everyone had a marvelous time.
> There's something
> magical about a gathering of little girls. They are
> instantly friends
> with each other, and exude confidence, cooperation and
> optimism. Like
> boy scout camp without the tribal "lord of the
> flies" factor.
>
> I drove 900 miles round trip. Others offered to drive but
> the drivers
> seat was the only one without sleeping bags and camping
> gear packed in
> he foot well ;0) The girls sang and laughed and played word
> games all
> the way there... slept all the way home!
>
> I picked up the last of my pots today at EMU and turned in
> my keys,
> which feels very final. It kind of felt like school is
> home-away-from-home and emu folks are family... and then
> one day they
> take away your keys and you have to leave. It's weird.
>
> But there are lists a mile long of house projects neglected
> for two
> years, as they never made the top priority list. I'll
> start as soon as I
> get through the unpacking and laundry form camp.
>
> One of the projects I am thinking about involves turning my
> MFA show
> sales into a small soda kiln. I know how to build the
> caternary arch
> kind, like the salt kiln we built at EMU, and my folks are
> happy to have
> me build it at their cottage.
>
> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where
> would you start?
> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced
> kilns/burners. Is there an
> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider,
> first?
>
> Yours
> Kelly
> tired, happy and sunburned
>
>
>
> http://www.primalpotter.com
Victoria E. Hamilton on tue 10 jun 08
Mike -
That was really bad....really.
Too funny. Had to read it twice.
Vicki Hamilton
-----Original Message-----
From: Clayart [mailto:CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 11:33 PM
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Subject: Re: 5000 girl scouts and kiln building question
>>Is there an argument for or against cats for soda I should consider,
first?<<
Personally, I'd never use cats for soda. Aside from the problems you'd have
to deal with from PETA, having to build with hard brick (those claws would
wreak havok on soft brick and fiber), and the extra large hole you'd have to
make in the kiln for the introduction of cats, there's the issue of how much
soda can even be had from a cat in the first place. Perhaps Ron or Ivor have
have some source materials they could point us to, I must admit I wouldn't
know where to start looking.
Mike
(I'm so sorry I just couldn't resist. I haven't slept much the past two
nights. I know it's in bad taste. I don't hate cats, really. Bad, bad
Mike!!)
Mike
in Taku, Japan
www.karatsupots.com
karatsupots.etsy.com
karatsupots.blogspot.com
blogs.yahoo.co.jp/karatsupots
Kelly Savino ????????:
>
> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you start?
> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
>
> Yours
> Kelly
> tired, happy and sunburned
>
>
>
> http://www.primalpotter.com
>
>
Tony Ferguson on tue 10 jun 08
Kelly,
If you are SURE your work will be best in soda, then build a soda kiln. Figure out what kiln shelves you want to use/afford and design your kiln around them. I would not get the shelves first...I would build the kiln first because you can always (depending on your work) tumble stack if you had too--but you will find kiln shelves. Build the kiln (cut out card board pseudo kiln shelves, lay it out on your floor, visualize it, if you can't visualize it, use cardboard and tape it together to get a sense of the scale, borrow some bricks and shelves if you can and lay it out, and see where your arch goes, sides, ports, etc. and float the card board over the stacked shelving, etc. Ask yourself, how long do I want to spend making work to fill the kiln, what scale, fuel costs, etc. After you sort through all the variables, build your kiln. The shelves you can buy as you need them.
Another route where you can hit the ground running is to go with an auto electric. There is some really marvelous work being done in electric out there now in variety of temperature ranges. Check out Ernest's cone 9 work:
http://www.ernestmiller.com/
He's combining a variety of glaze types he's been developing. This man's test tiles looks like you are visiting a tile store.
For $2000, you can buy everything you need and be firing next week--there is something wonderful about that too! This may serve as a good start to fund your soda kiln down the road and give you an income right away. Again, it all depends on your philosophy, the look you want, etc.
I personally think every potter should build their own kiln at least once, more kilns the better--it give you a level of confidence in any firing situation. I have built numerous kilns and feel that I have a real understanding and can trouble shoot just about any kiln now because of this. In this day in age I guess its not necessary, but I think the level of confidence one gains from really understanding the inner and out working of kiln that you've built, modified, etc. helps in developing your firing aesthetic and solving problems when they arise. OR, you can focus on your forms and glaze surfaces and let the kiln be somewhat more of a constant. It's all good either way I think. Much fun ahead for you.
Tony
Kelly Savino wrote: Got home late last night from the national camporee -- 5000 girl scouts
in attendance, 104F heat index ... it was 99F the morning we rolled up
our tents to leave. But everyone had a marvelous time. There's something
magical about a gathering of little girls. They are instantly friends
with each other, and exude confidence, cooperation and optimism. Like
boy scout camp without the tribal "lord of the flies" factor.
I drove 900 miles round trip. Others offered to drive but the drivers
seat was the only one without sleeping bags and camping gear packed in
he foot well ;0) The girls sang and laughed and played word games all
the way there... slept all the way home!
I picked up the last of my pots today at EMU and turned in my keys,
which feels very final. It kind of felt like school is
home-away-from-home and emu folks are family... and then one day they
take away your keys and you have to leave. It's weird.
But there are lists a mile long of house projects neglected for two
years, as they never made the top priority list. I'll start as soon as I
get through the unpacking and laundry form camp.
One of the projects I am thinking about involves turning my MFA show
sales into a small soda kiln. I know how to build the caternary arch
kind, like the salt kiln we built at EMU, and my folks are happy to have
me build it at their cottage.
If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you start?
I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
Yours
Kelly
tired, happy and sunburned
http://www.primalpotter.com
Tony Ferguson
315 N. Lake Ave. Apt 312
Duluth, MN 55806
...where the sky meets the lake...
Artist, Educator, Photographer, Film Maker, Web Meister
fergyart@yahoo.com
(218) 727-6339
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Karin Givon on tue 10 jun 08
They used to use cats for those great reds, a zillion years ago, in
china, right? Discovered by the guy who ultimately bricked himself up
in the kiln to make some nice red pots for the emperor? Isn't that
how the story went?
Something like that.
Or not.
;>}
Karin
DancingDragonPottery.net
John Post on wed 11 jun 08
My first call when building a kiln would be to Marc Ward at Ward
Burner. The man knows burners and kilns and has seen just about every
bad idea out there. He would be great to talk with about how to make
the most kiln for your money. Of course the first decision is
probably going to be what kind of fuel you will be using at the cottage.
John Post
Sterling Heights, Michigan
:: cone 6 glaze website :: http://www.johnpost.us
:: elementary art website :: http://www.wemakeart.org
:: etsy sales website :: http://www.johnpost.etsy.com
On Jun 9, 2008, at 6:40 PM, Kelly Savino wrote:
> Got home late last night from the national camporee -- 5000 girl
> scouts
> in attendance, 104F heat index ... it was 99F the morning we rolled up
> our tents to leave. But everyone had a marvelous time. There's
> something
> magical about a gathering of little girls. They are instantly friends
> with each other, and exude confidence, cooperation and optimism. Like
> boy scout camp without the tribal "lord of the flies" factor.
>
> I drove 900 miles round trip. Others offered to drive but the drivers
> seat was the only one without sleeping bags and camping gear packed in
> he foot well ;0) The girls sang and laughed and played word games all
> the way there... slept all the way home!
>
> I picked up the last of my pots today at EMU and turned in my keys,
> which feels very final. It kind of felt like school is
> home-away-from-home and emu folks are family... and then one day they
> take away your keys and you have to leave. It's weird.
>
> But there are lists a mile long of house projects neglected for two
> years, as they never made the top priority list. I'll start as soon
> as I
> get through the unpacking and laundry form camp.
>
> One of the projects I am thinking about involves turning my MFA show
> sales into a small soda kiln. I know how to build the caternary arch
> kind, like the salt kiln we built at EMU, and my folks are happy to
> have
> me build it at their cottage.
>
> If you had around $2000, a site, and the skills, where would you
> start?
> I have kiln books, but haven't yet priced kilns/burners. Is there an
> argument for or against cats for soda I should consider, first?
>
> Yours
> Kelly
> tired, happy and sunburned
>
>
>
> http://www.primalpotter.com
>
Ivor and Olive Lewis on thu 12 jun 08
Dear Mike,
I am familiar with the problems of firing with Sodium Chloride but
have never fired with Sodium Carbonate. So I am not really in a
position to make any recommendations.
But from the research I have done I am sure the chemistries of the two
materials with respect to a clay body or kiln refractories are very
different.
Since Sodium oxides are not involved in the reactions between clay or
refractories when Sodium Chloride is the glazing agent, a high alumina
kiln wash or refractories that incorporate a high percentage of
Mullite seem to remain relatively stable over long periods of time
However, it is known that Molten Sodium Carbonate (Na2O.CO2) is a
solvent for Alumino-Silicate materials. Therefore I would anticipate
the generation of Sodium Silicate and Sodium Aluminate when clay is
exposed to Sodium Carbonate fumes.
It might be time to consider Zirconium Oxide or Zirconium
Orthosilicate as ingredients in a kiln wash for Sodium Carbonate
styles of glazing where kilns are built from Silica Alumina
refractories.
Best regards,
Ivor Lewis.
Redhill,
South Australia.
<......there's the issue of how much soda can even be had from a cat
in the
first place. Perhaps Ron or Ivor have have some source materials they
could point us to, I must admit I wouldn't know where to start
looking....>
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