Vince Pitelka on sun 15 jun 08
Paul Gerhold wrote:
One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is
it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the
definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has really
lost any significance except for possible marketing value? It seems that a
great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows really bares no
relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
Paul -
As I understand it, the traditional distinctions identifying "true
porcelain" had to do with the body recipe and the degree of vitrification
rather than whether or not it was translucent. But things change, and now,
the term "porcelain" seems to be used to refer to any claybody that fires
white or eggshell at cone 6 or cone 10 with very low absorption (complete
vitrification). But it is important that people be careful about applying
the term "porcelain" to other claybodies like B-Mix, which is a
porcelaineous stoneware.
- Vince
Vince Pitelka
Appalachian Center for Craft
Tennessee Tech University
vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu
http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
Paul Gerhold on sun 15 jun 08
One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is
it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the
definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has really lost any
significance except for possible marketing value?
It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
Paul
**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
Paul Herman on sun 15 jun 08
Hello Antoinette,
Porcelain is very much alive here at our biannual wood firings. With
it's lovely white background, the glaze colors are much brighter than
those over a white stoneware. Really a delight for the eyes.
Some of my customers understand the difference between porcelain and
other clays, and appreciate the extra effort required to work with
porcelain. Others don't, and I have to explain it to them. They seem
to respond strongly when I show them the translucence, and the colors
from the wood ash flashing. Normally I take them out in the sun and
show them how your hands make shadows when you look at the inside of a
porcelain vase. They love it, and that sells them. I also explain how
the light goes down inside the porcelain, then comes back out into
your eyes, giving a feeling of depth.
I think it's important to educate your customers regarding the subtle
differences of various kinds of pottery. Get them interested and
turned on to the whole mess. Tell them what makes your work unique.
Over the last eight years, I've had to explain the wood firing process
many times, and help my customers understand why the pots are better
by being wood fired. After a while it gets through, but you have to be
patient and persistent, and gentle. Rome was not built in a day.
I also think we do have some petuntze on the west coasts of the
Americas, and around the Pacific Rim of Fire. I haven't found any yet
around my home, but I think it's here, and am looking around. I have
found it's red headed cousin, down by the mailbox.
Best wishes,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
On Jun 15, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Antoinette Badenhorst wrote:
> John, would it not be wonderful if we had petunse available to
> create porcelains with. 400 years ago Europeans had their first
> successes in creating a porcelain clay body. Today I think we've
> come close, but there is a world of information untouched,
> specifically by studio potters.
>
> --
> Antoinette Badenhorst
> www.clayandcanvas.com
> www.studiopottery.co.uk
Lee Love on sun 15 jun 08
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Antoinette Badenhorst
wrote:
> Lee, I would love to have the opportunities to go there and learn from them, but then, I
> also know that the way porcelain developed in the Western world did not just pass the
> East without influencing them. In my opinion it is a give and take.
That is why I brought the subject up. Porcelain is adapted to the
place it is in. It is different in China, different in Korea,
different in Japan, different in Europe.
Why shouldn't it be "different" in the USA? A country that has
a Pacific and Atlantic shore?
Ric mentioned the "sound test" that other folks haven't
mentioned. It is an important test in China, Korea and Japan.
Ric, are those JingDeZhen Blue and White Porcelain flowerpots
"thin as paper"?
Some Asia porcelains are translucent, but the majority are
not. So I don't think a lack of translucency disqualifies a clay as
porcelain.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Lee Love on sun 15 jun 08
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Antoinette Badenhorst
wrote:
> John, would it not be wonderful if we had petunse available to create porcelains with.
It is available. Folks have found our versions in the Northwest.
In England their white feldspar is Cornwall Stone. In Japan, it is
called Amakusa. I use Amakusa in my standard ash glaze to help make
it frosty.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Lee Love on sun 15 jun 08
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Paul Gerhold wrote:
> It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
> really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
> porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
"30 years ago" isn't a good comparison, nor are European versions.
You have to go to China to its source. Maybe friends here can tell
us about Jingdezhen ware.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
John Rodgers on sun 15 jun 08
Long ago, in the very beginning of my work with porcelain, when I was
first trying to learn all I could about it, read a description of
porcelain as being a high fired, vitreous material incorporating
petunste, soft in appearance, white, translucent, sonorous.
That seemed to me to pretty well cover it. Still does.
John Rodgers
Chelsea, AL
Paul Gerhold wrote:
> One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is
> it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the
> definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has really lost any
> significance except for possible marketing value?
>
> It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
> really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
> porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
> 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
>
>
>
Antoinette Badenhorst on sun 15 jun 08
Lee, I would love to have the opportunities to go there and learn from them, but then, I also know that the way porcelain developed in the Western world did not just pass the East without influencing them. In my opinion it is a give and take.
--
Antoinette Badenhorst
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.studiopottery.co.uk
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Lee Love
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Paul Gerhold wrote:
>
> > It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
> > really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
> > porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
>
> "30 years ago" isn't a good comparison, nor are European versions.
>
>
> You have to go to China to its source. Maybe friends here can tell
> us about Jingdezhen ware.
>
>
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
> http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
>
> "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
> rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Joseph Herbert on sun 15 jun 08
Paul Herman wrote: "I've had to explain the wood firing process many times,
and help my customers understand why the pots are better by being wood
fired. "
It is sad for me to realize that none of my pots even have a chance at being
adequate. I guess I will just stop until I can get that necessary
requirement for "better" pottery.
I was just getting my hopes up, too.
Joe
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Antoinette Badenhorst on sun 15 jun 08
John, would it not be wonderful if we had petunse available to create porcelains with. 400 years ago Europeans had their first successes in creating a porcelain clay body. Today I think we've come close, but there is a world of information untouched, specifically by studio potters.
--
Antoinette Badenhorst
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.studiopottery.co.uk
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: John Rodgers
> Long ago, in the very beginning of my work with porcelain, when I was
> first trying to learn all I could about it, read a description of
> porcelain as being a high fired, vitreous material incorporating
> petunste, soft in appearance, white, translucent, sonorous.
>
> That seemed to me to pretty well cover it. Still does.
>
> John Rodgers
> Chelsea, AL
>
> Paul Gerhold wrote:
> > One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is
> > it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the
> > definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has really
> lost any
> > significance except for possible marketing value?
> >
> > It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
> > really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
> > porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
> > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
> >
> >
> >
Antoinette Badenhorst on mon 16 jun 08
Paul, porcelain has a very distinctive character. When treated correctly it is one of the most durable materials available. It is used in much more than just studio ceramic. Do yourself a favor and find a potter close to you that works with porcelain clay. Test it, look at the finished product and compare it with other pottery objects. There are few potters that start with porcelain clay to learn with.
--
Antoinette Badenhorst
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.studiopottery.co.uk
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Paul Gerhold
> One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is
> it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the
> definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has really lost
> any
> significance except for possible marketing value?
>
> It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
> really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
> porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best
> 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)
Antoinette Badenhorst on mon 16 jun 08
Lee, It should be different in different parts of America, not just in America all over. As you've mentioned in an earlier e-mail; your work is changing since you're back in Minneapolis. My work is progressing again since we moved to Chicago! I am not trying to say that what happens in the USA is not good or should be the same as in the rest of the world.
It is hard for me to lay my finger directly on the sore spot without sounding bias(is that the right word to use?) Let me say it this way: How many potters do you know that works with porcelain differently than with stoneware?
Porcelain have different qualities than stoneware and each one should be used differently to bring out the best in the clay. Stoneware has it's own qualities to use and so does earthenware. Divide that further into different temperature ranges, firing methods and colors of the clay and the variety is endless.
Years ago when I first started working with porcelain I heard a bell ring that it is hard to throw with porcelain. I did not know anything else about the material and I wanted to prove that I can throw porcelain successfully. Then I learned that the real challenge is to thrown thin porcelain. At the time it did not take me long to do that and I thought : what is all the fuss about porcelain? More so: it was too white and too sterile looking. It caused trouble, because I could not create wide lids for casserole dishes that would not slump in the kiln. Of cause I was ignorant. It took me years to really learn to appreciate the material for it's own qualities and to use every quality it offers at all the different stages of the creation process.
To qualify porcelain just to be just translucent is to limit your horizon; on the contrary, I personally created porcelain pit fired ware before and I was very successful in doing so. I know of several European porcelain artists that stops their process after bisque firing. Anyone working with porcelain in a pit will tell you that you can not treat the clay the same as stoneware. There are distinctive differences. I am sure the same applies for wood firing porcelain, raku firing porcelain etc.
--
Antoinette Badenhorst
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.studiopottery.co.uk
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Lee Love
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Antoinette Badenhorst
> wrote:
>
> > Lee, I would love to have the opportunities to go there and learn from them,
> but then, I
> > also know that the way porcelain developed in the Western world did not just
> pass the
> > East without influencing them. In my opinion it is a give and take.
>
> That is why I brought the subject up. Porcelain is adapted to the
> place it is in. It is different in China, different in Korea,
> different in Japan, different in Europe.
>
> Why shouldn't it be "different" in the USA? A country that has
> a Pacific and Atlantic shore?
>
> Ric mentioned the "sound test" that other folks haven't
> mentioned. It is an important test in China, Korea and Japan.
>
> Ric, are those JingDeZhen Blue and White Porcelain flowerpots
> "thin as paper"?
>
> Some Asia porcelains are translucent, but the majority are
> not. So I don't think a lack of translucency disqualifies a clay as
> porcelain.
>
> --
> Lee Love in Minneapolis
> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
> http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
>
> "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
> rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Jeanette Harris on mon 16 jun 08
>
>From: Paul Gerhold
>> One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is
>> it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the
>> definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has
>>really lost
>> any
>> significance except for possible marketing value?
>>
>> It seems that a great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows
>> really bares no relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered
> > porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?
I've joined the conversation late, but I think you're really asking
two things here. One is the composition of porcelain and the other is
the production of and marketing of pieces that are made of porcelain
clay. The first part of the question you can find yourself in
umpteen books about kinds and components of clay and the history of
the origins of porcelain.
The other half is the production of porcelain in the past and what is
happening on the contemporary scene.
Personally, I work in both porcelain and stoneware with some
earthenware/terra cotta thrown in. Every clay you touch will have
it's own subtleties and nuances. It's up to the potter to learn each
clay's "feel" and discover for themselves it's unique
characteristics. It requires attention and a sensitive touch.
For a long time I shied away from porcelain because I believed all
the talk about how difficult it was to work with. Yes, it is a bit of
a prima donna, but you can do things with porcelain you could never
do with other clays. Glazes will be different on porcelain. It seems
to me to be a more 'sensitive' clay.
As to marketing and cost, if your materials cost more, you must charge more.
I do also think the terms 'stoneware' and 'porcelain' call up
different images in the public's mind.
Cheers,
Jeanette
--
http://jeanetteharrisblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.washingtonpotters.org/members/Jeanette_Harris/wpa_jeanette_harris.htm
http://www.sa-clayartists.org Click on Members, then H
Jeanette Harris
Washingzona
Lee Love on mon 16 jun 08
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Hank Murrow wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Lee Love wrote:
>>
>> Many folks around here, because vapor firing is part of the
>> regional aesthetic, fire porcelain in soda and/or wood. They like it
>> because it is more responsive to flashing than most stoneware.
>
> Dear Lee;
>
> It is the relatively high alumina content of porcelain bodies that
> promotes the flashing. Shinos are high in alumina content, and Gail
> Nichols has exploited this by designing a very high alumina claybody
> that has defined entirely new areas of color and surface for us.
In the next woodfiring, I will do tests, adding percentages of
Helmer's kaolin to the new wood fire porcelain Continental Clay is
producing, to see if I can approach a clay similar to shino mogusa
clay. It will have a higher level of alumina than most porcelains.
Will have to go into a hot spot. Might do better in Craig's anagama.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Ric Swenson on mon 16 jun 08
...........the term porcelain came originally from the Portuguese sailors and merchants who compared the white clay pieces of ceramic work from JingDeZhen as like the "porcelena ' a 'shell'....found on the beaches in Portugal. Nothing the Europeans had seen at that time in ceramic work.
The source at Gao Ling ( we in the west call it....KAOLIN) mountain is a few KM from JingDeZhen and has inspired countless stories about it's discovery more than a thousand years ago.....and how the Imperial court admired it so much it became the name of the whole country...CHINA.
as I understand it.........
Ric
"...then fiery expedition be my wing, ..." -Wm. Shakespeare, RICHARD III, Act IV Scene III Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher, Office of International Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic Institute, TaoYang Road, Eastern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.JiangXi Province, P.R. of China. Postal code 333001. Mobile/cellular phone : 86 13767818872 < RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com> http://www.jci.jx.cn/http://www.ricswenson.com
> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 23:12:56 -0500> From: vpitelka@DTCCOM.NET> Subject: Re: using porcelain?> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > Paul Gerhold wrote:> One of the questions that should be asked is what really is porcelain? Is> it just a good white clay or does it have to be translucent. What is the> definition of porcelain or is porcelain just another term that has really> lost any significance except for possible marketing value? It seems that a> great deal of the work one sees in galleries and shows really bares no> relation to what (at least 30 years ago) was once considered> porcelain. Is there an accepted definition anymore?> > Paul -> As I understand it, the traditional distinctions identifying "true> porcelain" had to do with the body recipe and the degree of vitrification> rather than whether or not it was translucent. But things change, and now,> the term "porcelain" seems to be used to refer to any claybody that fires> white or eggshell at cone 6 or cone 10 with very low absorption (complete> vitrification). But it is important that people be careful about applying> the term "porcelain" to other claybodies like B-Mix, which is a> porcelaineous stoneware.> - Vince> > > Vince Pitelka> Appalachian Center for Craft> Tennessee Tech University> vpitelka@dtccom.net; wpitelka@tntech.edu> http://iweb.tntech.edu/wpitelka
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Ric Swenson on mon 16 jun 08
The tea cups and rice bowls of JingDeZhen are literally as thin as paper and quite translucent..... larger pieces cannot be that thin obviously. (eg. see CM article SUMMER 2007 on trimming JingDeZhen wares....by a JCI grad student. Shirley. That photo tells it all. I think I did a good job of photographing the rice bowl in her hand.) Japan doesn't even think that thin. Even Rudie Staffel doesn't work that thin.
Bone ash as I remember adds a bit of grey shade to the fired product...and also adds to the translucency that displays the 'Bone China' look to fine china of European wares.
JDZ porcelain, of early times even, measures about 70 on the whiteness scale of color. I doubt European Bone ash porcelains measure that high. Even Lemoges of today.
Most JDZ porcelain is now fired mostly with LPG gas at cone 10. It was recently done at cone 13 in coal kilns....but China is trying to clean up their environment in many big and small ways. what's the difference between cone 10 and 13? ...maybe 100-120 degrees F.?
The Olympic Games are having an effect ....even in clayworks!
Happy potting to all!
Ric
"...then fiery expedition be my wing, ..." -Wm. Shakespeare, RICHARD III, Act IV Scene III Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher, Office of International Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic Institute, TaoYang Road, Eastern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.JiangXi Province, P.R. of China. Postal code 333001. Mobile/cellular phone : 86 13767818872 < RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com> http://www.jci.jx.cn/http://www.ricswenson.com
> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:50:56 -0500> From: togeika@CLAYCRAFT.ORG> Subject: Re: using porcelain?> To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG> > On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Antoinette Badenhorst> wrote:> > > Lee, I would love to have the opportunities to go there and learn from them, but then, I> > also know that the way porcelain developed in the Western world did not just pass the> > East without influencing them. In my opinion it is a give and take.> > That is why I brought the subject up. Porcelain is adapted to the> place it is in. It is different in China, different in Korea,> different in Japan, different in Europe.> > Why shouldn't it be "different" in the USA? A country that has> a Pacific and Atlantic shore?> > Ric mentioned the "sound test" that other folks haven't> mentioned. It is an important test in China, Korea and Japan.> > Ric, are those JingDeZhen Blue and White Porcelain flowerpots> "thin as paper"?> > Some Asia porcelains are translucent, but the majority are> not. So I don't think a lack of translucency disqualifies a clay as> porcelain.> > --> Lee Love in Minneapolis> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/> http://claycraft.blogspot.com/> > "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is> rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
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Ric Swenson on mon 16 jun 08
JingDeZhen Porcelain has been described since 1004 AD. as thus:
"Thin as paper, bright as a mirror, as white as fine jade and sound as a bell"
Ric
Richard H. ("Ric") Swenson, Teacher, Office of International Cooperation and Exchange of Jingdezhen Ceramic Institute, TaoYang Road, Eastern Suburb, Jingdezhen City.JiangXi Province, P.R. of China. Postal code 333001. Mobile/cellular phone : 86 13767818872 < RicSwenson0823@hotmail.com> http://www.jci.jx.cn/http://www.ricswenson.com
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Lee Love on mon 16 jun 08
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Antoinette Badenhorst
wrote:
> It is hard for me to lay my finger directly on the sore spot without sounding bias(is
>that the right word to use?) Let me say it this way: How many potters do you know that
>works with porcelain differently than with stoneware?
Did you LOOK at any of the links I provided? Maren, Linda and Matt
all are attentive to their materials. Most Mingei influenced
ceramicist pay very close attention to materials. That is one of the
ways to figure out if a potter is being true to Mingei.
Many folks around here, because vapor firing is part of the
regional aesthetic, fire porcelain in soda and/or wood. They like it
because it is more responsive to flashing than most stoneware.
The most accurate way to describe American porcelain, is that
it is diverse. It is influenced by porcelain work from around the
world. And regional preferences and the population's education about
ceramics and pottery varies to a high degree from place to place.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
Paul Herman on mon 16 jun 08
Hi Joe,
Sorry that you took my comments personally, they were meant to refer
to my own work.
So get those hopes back up, and please don't be sad, as adequate work
can be done in all kinds of kilns, IMHO. Some kinds of firing are more
demanding on the skills of the potter, and don't produce much
character from the kiln itself. The way we fire here, with wood, puts
the kiln's voice is all over my pots. I find myself making pots "for
the kiln", to go in certain places in order to take advantage of
different zones in the kiln.
And to be honest, I'm sure the wood firing improves my work by a
considerable degree. In the past I have fired with electricity, gas
and oil. I'm not sure if wood firing would improve your work, but of
course that is for you to think about, not me.
Considering all my friends and colleagues who fire with wood, I
believe they all think wood firing is better in some way(s) or
another. If not, then why would we go to the trouble of cutting all
that wood, and staying up all night getting tired and dirty?
Good firings, no matter what the kind,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
On Jun 15, 2008, at 10:33 PM, Joseph Herbert wrote:
> Paul Herman wrote: "I've had to explain the wood firing process many
> times,
> and help my customers understand why the pots are better by being wood
> fired. "
>
> It is sad for me to realize that none of my pots even have a chance
> at being
> adequate. I guess I will just stop until I can get that necessary
> requirement for "better" pottery.
>
> I was just getting my hopes up, too.
>
> Joe
Mayssan Farra on mon 16 jun 08
Hello Antoinette:=0A=A0=0ASo sorry for making you into an Annette ( who is =
also a friend of mine) and I sent without checking.=0A=A0=0AI hope=A0you ar=
e well and settled, I still remember fondly=A0our time together in=A0Louisv=
ille.=0A=A0=0AMayssan Shora Farra=0Ahttp://www.clayvillepottery.com=0Ahttp:=
//clayette.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A
Mayssan Farra on mon 16 jun 08
Considering all my friends and colleagues who fire with wood, I=0Abelieve t=
hey all think wood firing is better in some way(s) or=0Aanother. If not, th=
en why would we go to the trouble of cutting all=0Athat wood, and staying u=
p all night getting tired and dirty?=0A=0AGood firings, no matter what the =
kind,=0A=0APaul Herman=0A=0AHello Paul:=0A=A0=0AI think you do it because y=
ou like it, or at least that is why you should do it. You like the process =
and the results=A0so you fire with wood.=0A=A0=0AI think it all lies where=
=A0the heart is. Yours is in the method of fire=A0Annette's is in Porcelain=
, Tony's in the Gnar Gnar Mel's in good crafted solid pots or so I suppose.=
=0A=A0=0AMine is=A0in the=A0feel of the clay on my fingers. We all find wha=
t we want from the clay and what we are good at in clay. I love wood fired =
pots but not=A0mine to fire. =A0I love porcelain pots but not mine to make.=
=0A=A0=0ASo I sit in my little studio making=A0my little claythings firing=
my computerized electric kiln=A0 and enjoying every minute of it. Just min=
e.=0A=A0=0AI love this time of day at dusk with the muted light and the qui=
etude.=0A=A0=0AMayssan Shora Farra=0Ahttp://www.clayvillepottery.com=0Ahttp=
://clayette.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A
Curtis Benzle on mon 16 jun 08
Well Antoinette: You started off quite a literary
firestorm---congratulations. The conversation is
interesting---especially in how much it reveals about personal
aesthetics. My interest in defining porcelain is in a futile hope to
avoid confusion---futile because the greater the definition, the
greater the apparent confusion.
Truth be told, I really couldn't care less about what you call the
stuff I use---as long as it meets my needs. When I started looking
for "my" material back in the early 70's, I knew "it" had to be white,
translucent and fine grained. Rudy Staffel was the most help. He
told me to take out the clay and put in potato starch. It took a few
years of searching but his advise did free me from the bonds of
Ceramics enough to pursue a medium without excessive regard for how my
material was "suppose" to be used based on how it had been used
historically. Coming out of a glass grad program probably helped too.
So....best of luck with your semantic tour of "porcelain". As you
have seen, there are folks out there with enough material knowledge to
carry this conversation well into the next decade. I'm not sure how
it will end but it will certainly be informative.
I did look at your web site and while you threw a few curves of your
own, it looks like on certain days your visual definition of Porcelain
might mesh with mine. It's good to know you are there.
Thanks,
Curt
On 6/16/08, Antoinette Badenhorst wrote:
> Lee, It should be different in different parts of America, not just in
> America all over. As you've mentioned in an earlier e-mail; your work is
> changing since you're back in Minneapolis. My work is progressing again
> since we moved to Chicago! I am not trying to say that what happens in the
> USA is not good or should be the same as in the rest of the world.
> It is hard for me to lay my finger directly on the sore spot without
> sounding bias(is that the right word to use?) Let me say it this way: How
> many potters do you know that works with porcelain differently than with
> stoneware?
> Porcelain have different qualities than stoneware and each one should be
> used differently to bring out the best in the clay. Stoneware has it's own
> qualities to use and so does earthenware. Divide that further into different
> temperature ranges, firing methods and colors of the clay and the variety is
> endless.
> Years ago when I first started working with porcelain I heard a bell ring
> that it is hard to throw with porcelain. I did not know anything else about
> the material and I wanted to prove that I can throw porcelain successfully.
> Then I learned that the real challenge is to thrown thin porcelain. At the
> time it did not take me long to do that and I thought : what is all the fuss
> about porcelain? More so: it was too white and too sterile looking. It
> caused trouble, because I could not create wide lids for casserole dishes
> that would not slump in the kiln. Of cause I was ignorant. It took me years
> to really learn to appreciate the material for it's own qualities and to use
> every quality it offers at all the different stages of the creation process.
> To qualify porcelain just to be just translucent is to limit your horizon;
> on the contrary, I personally created porcelain pit fired ware before and I
> was very successful in doing so. I know of several European porcelain
> artists that stops their process after bisque firing. Anyone working with
> porcelain in a pit will tell you that you can not treat the clay the same as
> stoneware. There are distinctive differences. I am sure the same applies for
> wood firing porcelain, raku firing porcelain etc.
>
>
> --
> Antoinette Badenhorst
> www.clayandcanvas.com
> www.studiopottery.co.uk
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Lee Love
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Antoinette Badenhorst
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Lee, I would love to have the opportunities to go there and learn from
>> > them,
>> but then, I
>> > also know that the way porcelain developed in the Western world did not
>> > just
>> pass the
>> > East without influencing them. In my opinion it is a give and take.
>>
>> That is why I brought the subject up. Porcelain is adapted to the
>> place it is in. It is different in China, different in Korea,
>> different in Japan, different in Europe.
>>
>> Why shouldn't it be "different" in the USA? A country that has
>> a Pacific and Atlantic shore?
>>
>> Ric mentioned the "sound test" that other folks haven't
>> mentioned. It is an important test in China, Korea and Japan.
>>
>> Ric, are those JingDeZhen Blue and White Porcelain flowerpots
>> "thin as paper"?
>>
>> Some Asia porcelains are translucent, but the majority are
>> not. So I don't think a lack of translucency disqualifies a clay as
>> porcelain.
>>
>> --
>> Lee Love in Minneapolis
>> http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
>> http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
>>
>> "We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is
>> rounded with a sleep." --PROSPERO Tempest Shakespeare
>
Hank Murrow on mon 16 jun 08
On Jun 16, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Lee Love wrote:
>
> Many folks around here, because vapor firing is part of the
> regional aesthetic, fire porcelain in soda and/or wood. They like it
> because it is more responsive to flashing than most stoneware.
Dear Lee;
It is the relatively high alumina content of porcelain bodies that
promotes the flashing. Shinos are high in alumina content, and Gail
Nichols has exploited this by designing a very high alumina claybody
that has defined entirely new areas of color and surface for us.
Cheers, Hank
Antoinette Badenhorst on tue 17 jun 08
Mayssan, at least you remembered my name partly. I would have had trouble to find the M in your name, but I remember you and it is nice to hear from you. You're right each one for her or himself.
--
Antoinette Badenhorst
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.studiopottery.co.uk
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mayssan Farra
> Considering all my friends and colleagues who fire with wood, I
> believe they all think wood firing is better in some way(s) or
> another. If not, then why would we go to the trouble of cutting all
> that wood, and staying up all night getting tired and dirty?
>
> Good firings, no matter what the kind,
>
> Paul Herman
>
> Hello Paul:
>
> I think you do it because you like it, or at least that is why you should do it.
> You like the process and the results so you fire with wood.
>
> I think it all lies where the heart is. Yours is in the method of fire Annette's
> is in Porcelain, Tony's in the Gnar Gnar Mel's in good crafted solid pots or so
> I suppose.
>
> Mine is in the feel of the clay on my fingers. We all find what we want from the
> clay and what we are good at in clay. I love wood fired pots but not mine to
> fire. I love porcelain pots but not mine to make.
>
> So I sit in my little studio making my little claythings firing my computerized
> electric kiln and enjoying every minute of it. Just mine.
>
> I love this time of day at dusk with the muted light and the quietude.
>
> Mayssan Shora Farra
> http://www.clayvillepottery.com
> http://clayette.blogspot.com
>
>
>
Christine Campbell on tue 17 jun 08
Good topic Antoinette!
We all limit ourselves when we try
to rigidly define rather than to
consider and reflect.
Porcelain must be x to be real.
Firings must be x to be good.
Techniques must be x to be valid.
Impose a rule and a hundred people
will successfully break it.
Porcelain is extremely strong in
Australia and the Scandinavian
countries. They are casting it and
carving it and adding paper to it
and generally gleefully pushing it
out beyond all boundaries previously
imposed.
They are not bothered by how they
achieve their goals ... should work be
judged by how it is made ... because it
is slipcast or fired in electric?
Or would it be a little more productive
to go by the results?
Look at Robin Best's work ...
she is on the cover of the current
Ceramic Arts and Perception which is
packed with porcelain people.
Then look at John Albert Murphy and Kaye
Pemberton ... a feast of porcelain.
It is a breathtaking joy to see their
work ... makes me feel like a total
beginner though I have been working
with porcelain for 20 years.
Since we can access images and information
about all these potters and their work,
can we really say we are limited since
they are not on the next block?
Or rather, are we limiting ourselves in
our own prisons of definitions and
classifications?
Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
--
Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
9417 Koupela Drive
Raleigh NC 27615-2233
Designs in Colored Porcelain
1-800-652-1008
Fax : 919-676-2062
website: www.ccpottery.com
wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
Antoinette Badenhorst on wed 18 jun 08
Hi Chris. Nice to hear from you and wonderful to hear you chip in. You showed some wonderful examples of porcelain and what I like most about those artists is that they understand the character of porcelain, which is not necessarily translucent. Seems like all of them work with electric firing though( except for maybe Kaye
Pemberton that might work in reduction ) Her work reminds me somewhat of Jack Doherty, except that she presents it differently.
Some of America's best porcelain artists is Malcolm Davis and Graig Martell. They both work in very opposite directions, but both understand how to get the best from porcelain. Add to them someone like Curtis Bensle( sorry to get you in the lime light here Curt) and you have 3 persons in very opposite directions in porcelain, but very successful. What's interesting about that is that I often times hear comments that porcelain is to much of a "feminine clay" or the results is too feminine or fragile for men to handle. Notice that I did not use any woman as a example (although there are several), but all men.
Hmmm, I like it here on the soap box!
--
Antoinette Badenhorst
www.clayandcanvas.com
www.studiopottery.co.uk
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Christine Campbell
> Good topic Antoinette!
>
> We all limit ourselves when we try
> to rigidly define rather than to
> consider and reflect.
>
> Porcelain must be x to be real.
> Firings must be x to be good.
> Techniques must be x to be valid.
>
> Impose a rule and a hundred people
> will successfully break it.
>
> Porcelain is extremely strong in
> Australia and the Scandinavian
> countries. They are casting it and
> carving it and adding paper to it
> and generally gleefully pushing it
> out beyond all boundaries previously
> imposed.
>
> They are not bothered by how they
> achieve their goals ... should work be
> judged by how it is made ... because it
> is slipcast or fired in electric?
>
> Or would it be a little more productive
> to go by the results?
>
> Look at Robin Best's work ...
> she is on the cover of the current
> Ceramic Arts and Perception which is
> packed with porcelain people.
>
> Then look at John Albert Murphy and Kaye
> Pemberton ... a feast of porcelain.
>
> It is a breathtaking joy to see their
> work ... makes me feel like a total
> beginner though I have been working
> with porcelain for 20 years.
>
> Since we can access images and information
> about all these potters and their work,
> can we really say we are limited since
> they are not on the next block?
>
> Or rather, are we limiting ourselves in
> our own prisons of definitions and
> classifications?
>
>
> Chris Campbell - in North Carolina
>
> --
> Chris Campbell Pottery LLC
> 9417 Koupela Drive
> Raleigh NC 27615-2233
>
> Designs in Colored Porcelain
>
> 1-800-652-1008
> Fax : 919-676-2062
> website: www.ccpottery.com
> wholesale : www.wholesalecrafts.com
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