Lili Krakowski on thu 24 jul 08
Dear Kelly:
Your post was beautifully written--as always-- but, to my mind, besides the
point.
When I finally win The Great Raccoon War I will post something I have been
working on, which is meant to explain why I feel so strongly that, most
certainly, we honor our teachers and friends by saying : "This glaze was
given me by Such and Such" the whole notion of "It's mine! It's mine!" and
clutching recipes to one's bosom strikes me as ...well, I better not say
it....That is what the Glaze Free Trade thing is about....Bosom clutching,
whispering in corners...
There is a limited number of combos possible at any given temperature.
There is a limited number of materials on the market. There are a given
number of ingredients--such as lead, antimony, barium, cadmium etc--that,
while used for centuries, now are known to be dangerous, so we no longer use
them. (To the vast irritation of several on this list, I feel lithium in
carbonate form likewise should be banned from communal studios)
Now, if once upon a time, a certain glaze consisted of Borax, Pearl ash,
Fetzer clay and Buckingham spar, water-insoluble sources now can be had to
replace Borax and Pearl ash, and the two other materials are no longer sold.
So a recipe would have evolved, maybe using one of a number of frits, or
Colemanite (now gone) or Gerstley Borate (now gone) or one of the new
proprietary substitutes for GB. The clay now--in the US--would be Red Art
and the spar--which ever.
I certainly would not pass a glaze on without saying that I found it in a
certain book, but have not used, or that I have used it and it is ok. I
seriously doubt anyone would pass on a recipe without at least that much
attribution.
Recipes cannot be copyrighted. Their presentation can. (Why cookbooks
carry copyright.) IF Julia Child, and Elizabeth David, and James Beard all
have a recipe for X, then it behooves the person passing it on to another to
say: "This if from Elizabeth David". That way the recipient has an idea of
the type of result to expect (Costlier ingredients; cheaper ones; heavy
spicing;bland...and like that.)
Ron/John's recipes are for handsomely colored glazes, electrically fired in
digitally controlled kilns. My glazes lean to slipglazes, or high
magnesium ones--simply because that is what I like, and make, and use. (For
color I use slips and clear) All that is fine--and indicates to the
recipient what to expect, if recipient has a clue about the kinds of glazes
Source likes/makes.
When I write of the glazes of Hobart Cowles, or say I found this glaze in
that book, I am saying only that this person published that glaze, it now
it out there. Just and only that. It is not a recommendation; the glaze
may not work on your clay. It is not a suggestion; you may hate it. And
anyone who mixes up a 30 gallon garbage can full of glaze from a recipe she
has not tested on her own clay body, in her own kiln--well, fool is too kind
a word.
As to Newbies and students rushing in where serious potters fear to
tread....I have no sympathy. Even if I did, it would not help them. It is
ONLY in the arts and crafts that amateurs/hobbyists are allowed, tolerated
even if they defy, deny, and ignore the rules. No one would tolerate a
golfer who kicks the ball into the hole and claims privilege because he only
is a hobbyist. No one would allow someone--just because he only is a
hobbyist sailor--to tromp in workboots on a teak deck. But in the crafts
we constantly are asked to make excuses for people who disdain the rules of
the craft. So Newbies and students should get Monona Rossol's book on
health and safety, and get (or borrow from library) Rhodes and or
Fraser....Learn about ingredients, learn about firing, learn about glaze
calculation. Spend less on studio tsatzkes, more on books and a glaze
calculation program.
In your analogy of food products--you went to the trouble of learning why
nitrites are bad for you, why you should avoid this or that. YOU WENT TO
THE TROUBLE. That is the key phrase.
Glazes are recipes. Attribute the source. Sure, that is respectful. But if
the source is unknown...fine. Gee, whatever happened to the Unknown
Craftsman?
Yours in Hebrew National frankfurters....
Lili Krakowski
Be of good courage
Terrance(Terry)&FrancineLazaroff on thu 24 jul 08
Lili;
I remember when clayart was just starting out and someone wrote asking for
help to find a recipe for a glaze. I answered this email with quote
Enough is enough unquote. Well I was beaten to death by the clayart
members. Some agreed with me and other thought I was an selfish and mean.
The requesting person was named "Faith". If you Yahoo my name Terrance
Frank Lazaroff, you will be able to read the thread. It is at the top of
the page. My God! and it wont go away.
I was told that the person might not have access to a library or a college
in order to do the necessary research. I was also told the person may not
have been lucky enough to live near a city where courses in glaze
formulation could be taken. The discussion went on and on and I kept
sinking lower and lower into the mud.
Well now we see that the discussion of giving out recipes is once again hot
and of course very contentious.
What are my feeling today?
I believe that a glaze the makes the designer lots of money should remain
their secret as long as they should wish and that they should not be
pressured into giving up the recipe.
I believe a collection of glaze recipe that were designed by an author and
used in his publications for sale, should be off limits for sharing without
permission. The info is available at the book store.
I believe a recipe given to me as a gift and at workshops should be shared
with others.
I believe that one sharing recipes should give the best known source
information so that the artist receiving the recipe can read up more on the
subject, such as methods of mixing, applying, testing, and firing. They may
also wish to know more about the artist.
I believe that a potter requesting a recipe should have a base knowledge of
glaze theory to understand the makeup of the recipes they receive for
reasons of safety and health.
I believe that those requesting a glaze should have at least done some
research trying to find the recipe by reading up on the subject.
I believe that potters, using glaze recipes that can be attributed to an
author but has been slightly altered by them with colorants and oxides
should, ensure that author of the base glaze is recognized and the glaze be
called a derivative of such recipe.
I believe that when an author of a glaze recipe, can show that the recipe
list of ingredients is of his origin and not a derivative of another artists
research, has the right to ask us not to share his recipe, should that be
his wish.
I believe that an artist who really wants to keep a recipe secret should
write the recipe out in code.
I believe a recipe is just a beginning of the search for the perfect glaze.
The final belief is to answer the question before being asked. That is why
I have put the list of glaze recipes titles that I have in my collection on
my web page and that anyone wishing to have a copy of the glaze can do so by
e-mailing me a request. I ask the requesting person to send me a glaze
recipe as gift for the one that I give them. In this way I will be able to
expand the list. Eventually I will have this list and the ingredients plus
other info put into a online data base where one will be able to find glaze
recipe lists for every firing range. In addition, I hope to also offer
recipe lists by ingredient predominance. I am not in a hurry so this will
take time. It will come to pass.
I hope Faith is reading this.
For what it is worth.
See Terry's Tiny Teapots
Be sure to visit Terry's website.
http://clayart.ca/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lili Krakowski"
To:
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:13 PM
Subject: Glaze Free Trade and honoring one's teachers
> Dear Kelly:
>
> Your post was beautifully written--as always-- but, to my mind, besides
> the
> point.
>
> When I finally win The Great Raccoon War I will post something I have been
> working on, which is meant to explain why I feel so strongly that, most
> certainly, we honor our teachers and friends by saying : "This glaze was
> given me by Such and Such" the whole notion of "It's mine! It's mine!" and
> clutching recipes to one's bosom strikes me as ...well, I better not say
> it....That is what the Glaze Free Trade thing is about....Bosom clutching,
> whispering in corners...
>
> There is a limited number of combos possible at any given temperature.
> There is a limited number of materials on the market. There are a given
> number of ingredients--such as lead, antimony, barium, cadmium etc--that,
> while used for centuries, now are known to be dangerous, so we no longer
> use
> them. (To the vast irritation of several on this list, I feel lithium in
> carbonate form likewise should be banned from communal studios)
>
> Now, if once upon a time, a certain glaze consisted of Borax, Pearl ash,
> Fetzer clay and Buckingham spar, water-insoluble sources now can be had to
> replace Borax and Pearl ash, and the two other materials are no longer
> sold.
> So a recipe would have evolved, maybe using one of a number of frits, or
> Colemanite (now gone) or Gerstley Borate (now gone) or one of the new
> proprietary substitutes for GB. The clay now--in the US--would be Red Art
> and the spar--which ever.
>
> I certainly would not pass a glaze on without saying that I found it in a
> certain book, but have not used, or that I have used it and it is ok. I
> seriously doubt anyone would pass on a recipe without at least that much
> attribution.
>
> Recipes cannot be copyrighted. Their presentation can. (Why cookbooks
> carry copyright.) IF Julia Child, and Elizabeth David, and James Beard
> all
> have a recipe for X, then it behooves the person passing it on to another
> to
> say: "This if from Elizabeth David". That way the recipient has an idea
> of
> the type of result to expect (Costlier ingredients; cheaper ones; heavy
> spicing;bland...and like that.)
>
> Ron/John's recipes are for handsomely colored glazes, electrically fired
> in
> digitally controlled kilns. My glazes lean to slipglazes, or high
> magnesium ones--simply because that is what I like, and make, and use.
> (For
> color I use slips and clear) All that is fine--and indicates to the
> recipient what to expect, if recipient has a clue about the kinds of
> glazes
> Source likes/makes.
>
> When I write of the glazes of Hobart Cowles, or say I found this glaze in
> that book, I am saying only that this person published that glaze, it now
> it out there. Just and only that. It is not a recommendation; the glaze
> may not work on your clay. It is not a suggestion; you may hate it. And
> anyone who mixes up a 30 gallon garbage can full of glaze from a recipe
> she
> has not tested on her own clay body, in her own kiln--well, fool is too
> kind
> a word.
>
> As to Newbies and students rushing in where serious potters fear to
> tread....I have no sympathy. Even if I did, it would not help them. It
> is
> ONLY in the arts and crafts that amateurs/hobbyists are allowed, tolerated
> even if they defy, deny, and ignore the rules. No one would tolerate a
> golfer who kicks the ball into the hole and claims privilege because he
> only
> is a hobbyist. No one would allow someone--just because he only is a
> hobbyist sailor--to tromp in workboots on a teak deck. But in the
> crafts
> we constantly are asked to make excuses for people who disdain the rules
> of
> the craft. So Newbies and students should get Monona Rossol's book on
> health and safety, and get (or borrow from library) Rhodes and or
> Fraser....Learn about ingredients, learn about firing, learn about glaze
> calculation. Spend less on studio tsatzkes, more on books and a glaze
> calculation program.
>
> In your analogy of food products--you went to the trouble of learning why
> nitrites are bad for you, why you should avoid this or that. YOU WENT TO
> THE TROUBLE. That is the key phrase.
>
> Glazes are recipes. Attribute the source. Sure, that is respectful. But
> if
> the source is unknown...fine. Gee, whatever happened to the Unknown
> Craftsman?
>
> Yours in Hebrew National frankfurters....
>
> Lili Krakowski
>
> Be of good courage
Ron Roy on thu 24 jul 08
Thank you Terry,
I must say I have no trouble agreeing with what you have said here - I
certainly have never expressed the idea that I am against the sharing of
glaze recipes although I do wish that more information would come with
them.
I have shared all my cone 10 recipes - and many cone 6 recipes - many are
in common use today.
I wish someone would explain to me why I am constantly accused of being
against the sharing of glazes? I have done more than my share of sharing.
RR
>What are my feeling today?
>
>I believe that a glaze the makes the designer lots of money should remain
>their secret as long as they should wish and that they should not be
>pressured into giving up the recipe.
>
>I believe a collection of glaze recipe that were designed by an author and
>used in his publications for sale, should be off limits for sharing without
>permission. The info is available at the book store.
>
>I believe a recipe given to me as a gift and at workshops should be shared
>with others.
>
>I believe that one sharing recipes should give the best known source
>information so that the artist receiving the recipe can read up more on the
>subject, such as methods of mixing, applying, testing, and firing. They may
>also wish to know more about the artist.
>
>I believe that a potter requesting a recipe should have a base knowledge of
>glaze theory to understand the makeup of the recipes they receive for
>reasons of safety and health.
>
>I believe that those requesting a glaze should have at least done some
>research trying to find the recipe by reading up on the subject.
>
>I believe that potters, using glaze recipes that can be attributed to an
>author but has been slightly altered by them with colorants and oxides
>should, ensure that author of the base glaze is recognized and the glaze be
>called a derivative of such recipe.
>
>I believe that when an author of a glaze recipe, can show that the recipe
>list of ingredients is of his origin and not a derivative of another artists
>research, has the right to ask us not to share his recipe, should that be
>his wish.
>
>I believe that an artist who really wants to keep a recipe secret should
>write the recipe out in code.
>
>I believe a recipe is just a beginning of the search for the perfect glaze.
>
>The final belief is to answer the question before being asked. That is why
>I have put the list of glaze recipes titles that I have in my collection on
>my web page and that anyone wishing to have a copy of the glaze can do so by
>e-mailing me a request. I ask the requesting person to send me a glaze
>recipe as gift for the one that I give them. In this way I will be able to
>expand the list. Eventually I will have this list and the ingredients plus
>other info put into a online data base where one will be able to find glaze
>recipe lists for every firing range. In addition, I hope to also offer
>recipe lists by ingredient predominance. I am not in a hurry so this will
>take time. It will come to pass.
>
>I hope Faith is reading this.
>
>For what it is worth.
>See Terry's Tiny Teapots
>Be sure to visit Terry's website.
>http://clayart.ca/
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
Mayssan Farra on fri 25 jul 08
Hello=A0Ron:=0AI think both you and John are two of the most generous peopl=
e on this list, If one reads clayart long enough they will see who is full =
of talk and who actually helps every newbie that asks any question about gl=
azing including tweaking the recipe for them and always offering to fix it =
if they will send it to you, and that is more than generous and sharing tha=
t is actual caring about how=A0people use the glazes and the stability and =
safty of such.=0AI think some miss the point (sometime intentionally)=A0abo=
ut you wanting them to get the whole picture by reading the book not just c=
opying a recipe from it, as if you actually made your fortune from the book=
.=0AAgain thank you for opening our eyes to glaze safty and stability.=0AM=
ayssan, who is quite digusted with all the hoopla when all is wanted and as=
ked is to give credit where credit is due.=A0=0A=A0=0AMayssan Shora Farra=
=0Ahttp://www.clayvillepottery.com=0Ahttp://clayette.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A=
=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Ron Roy =0ATo: =
CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG=0ASent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 11:44:22 PM=0ASubj=
ect: Re: Glaze Free Trade and honoring one's teachers=0A=0AThank you Terry,=
=0A=0AI must say I have no trouble agreeing with what you have said here - =
I=0Acertainly have never expressed the idea that I am against the sharing o=
f=0Aglaze recipes although I do wish that more information would come with=
=0Athem.=0A=0AI have shared all my cone 10 recipes - and many cone 6 recipe=
s - many are=0Ain common use today.=0A=0AI wish someone would explain to me=
why I am constantly accused of being=0Aagainst the sharing of glazes? I ha=
ve done more than my share of sharing.=0A=0ARR=0A=0A=0A
Veena Raghavan on fri 25 jul 08
Mayssan,
I could not agree with you more! I find it hard to believe that anyone on
Clayart finds it too much to ask for credit where credit is due on a glaze or
anything else for that matter. And, to say that Ron is not for sharing
glazes--my goodness, where have these people been all these years. Could anyone be more
generous that Ron Roy with all the help and advice he give for free, with all
the glaze tweaking he does for everyone, for all the knowledge he shares...I
could go on and on. Thank you Ron and all the others on Clayart, who share
their knowledge with us. These are the people who make Clayart the wonderful
place it is. And, Mel, on the subject of Clayart subscriptions, your patience is
without end!
Veena
In a message dated 7/25/2008 4:14:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mayssan1@YAHOO.COM writes:
>
> Hello Ron:
> I think both you and John are two of the most generous people on this list,
> If one reads clayart long enough they will see who is full of talk and who
> actually helps every newbie that asks any question about glazing including
> tweaking the recipe for them and always offering to fix it if they will send it
> to you, and that is more than generous and sharing that is actual caring about
> how people use the glazes and the stability and safty of such.
VeenaRaghavan@cs.com
Lee Love on sat 26 jul 08
On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Lili Krakowski
wrote:
>
> Glazes are recipes. Attribute the source. Sure, that is respectful. But if
> the source is unknown...fine. Gee, whatever happened to the Unknown
> Craftsman?
I agree. Authors should be willing to have their recipes shared.
It is the law.
I never give a recipe away or accept one, unless the other person is
willing to share or allow me to share freely.
As Hamada once said, Secrets hinder progress.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
Kim Hohlmayer on mon 28 jul 08
Dear Terrance,
Well said. --Kim H.
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