Suchman ceramics on fri 8 aug 08
Just curious, weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?
--
pagan by nature
Rudy Tucker on mon 11 aug 08
Apologies if I missed them but I'm surprised that I've seen no response to
"weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?" Is there not anyone out there
single firing shino with good results? I've had quite variable results with
all of the shinos that I have tried. I fire with wood to cone 10 or 11.
Always glad to read responses about green glazing or single firing.
Rudy
in the dry but lovely Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suchman ceramics"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Once fired shinos
> Just curious, weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?
>
> --
> pagan by nature
Steve Mills on tue 12 aug 08
Hi Rudy,
Missed your original post.
I use a once fired Shino in wood, wood-salt, and gas firings, although because some of my other glazes won't single fire I generally bisque first.
It's the basic equal parts recipe of Clay, Neph-Sy, & Soda Feldspar.
I mainly use a Ball clay with a little iron naturally in it, but I have other versions with different clays including one using clay out of my garden.
They're all different and I love their variety.
Steve
Bath
UK
----- Original Message ----
From: Rudy Tucker
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 10:38:29 PM
Subject: Re: Once fired shinos
Apologies if I missed them but I'm surprised that I've seen no response to
"weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?" Is there not anyone out there
single firing shino with good results? I've had quite variable results with
all of the shinos that I have tried. I fire with wood to cone 10 or 11.
Always glad to read responses about green glazing or single firing.
Rudy
in the dry but lovely Shenandoah Valley of Virginia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suchman ceramics"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Once fired shinos
> Just curious, weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?
>
> --
> pagan by nature
Lee Love on tue 12 aug 08
I have always put shino in mhy ko-shigaraki clay and inside the foot
right after trimming. These pots are not glazed on the outside.,
Sometimes they are bisqued and sometimes not. I just put in a half
dozen ko-shigaraki chawan and some guinomi in the woodkiln that have
shino on the inside and outside and are being singled fired. The
application is thin so the shino is either pale translucent or
metallic.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
Paul Haigh on tue 12 aug 08
I'm experimenting with once fired shinos myself (wood fired, mostly Penn State Shino with and without soda ash). I got the recipes and advice out of Britt's High Fire Glaze book, and I'm no authority- but if by "shinos of old" you mean "ancient" and "Japanese"- they were once fired, but were not the same as American shinos.
What I've read in a number of sources says that the orange, red, carbon trap, etc. were developed in the US in the past 40 years or so, and that many of the Japanese ones were white or pale on purpose (of course- wood firing did all sorts of funky things to them, and the surfaces could be downright moon-like).
I picked the recipe that I did to work with because the Malcolm Davis one had really high expansion and I'd rather avoid crazing. Some of the shino-like slips in Britt's book showed peeling on test-tiles, which is somewhat attributed to them NOT being once fired- if the clay and slip were changing together in a once-fired situation, then there wouldn't be as much mismatch.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suchman ceramics"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Once fired shinos
> Just curious, weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?
>
> --
> pagan by nature
Hank Murrow on wed 13 aug 08
On Aug 12, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Paul Haigh wrote:
> I'm experimenting with once fired shinos myself (wood fired, mostly
> Penn State Shino with and without soda ash). I got the recipes and
> advice out of Britt's High Fire Glaze book, and I'm no authority-
> but if by "shinos of old" you mean "ancient" and "Japanese"- they
> were once fired, but were not the same as American shinos.
>
> What I've read in a number of sources says that the orange, red,
> carbon trap, etc. were developed in the US in the past 40 years or
> so, and that many of the Japanese ones were white or pale on
> purpose (of course- wood firing did all sorts of funky things to
> them, and the surfaces could be downright moon-like).
Dear Paul;
I usually fire my shinos green when we load the anagama. I get real
red ones if the iron content of the clay is high enough. Porcelain
results in bland, bland....... I prefer to fire porcelains nude.
My shino recipes have no soda ash, resemble the Japanese ones, and
have a LOT of alumina. I bisque before glazing for my gas kiln.
Cheers, Hank
Lee Love on wed 13 aug 08
While most Japanese shinos are gray to white, there are varying
colors as Des mentioned, including blue. The big differences with
the red is that it usually does not cover the entire pot, but only
highlights in red. And this is usually only on the teabowls. I
think most of the Mino kilns fired in neutral to oxidation, with a few
spots in reduction, where the tea bowls were placed.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
DRB Seattle on wed 13 aug 08
Wilson's Inside Japanese Ceramics says shino's were feldspar and ash. the c=
lay is described is short which would help raw glazing with a no clay glaze=
and might increase the crawling.=A0 He gives the firing temp as 1200o C. s=
lowly fired in a damp kiln.
DRB
Seattle
--- On Fri, 8/8/08, Suchman ceramics wrote:
From: Suchman ceramics
Subject: Once fired shinos
To: CLAYART@LSV.CERAMICS.ORG
Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 7:06 PM
Just curious, weren't the "shinos of old" once fired?
--
pagan by nature
=0A=0A=0A
Paul Herman on wed 13 aug 08
Des,
That is one very interesting pot, will you tell us a little of what
you do know about it?
Best wishes,
Paul Herman
Great Basin Pottery
Doyle, California US
www.greatbasinpottery.com/
On Aug 13, 2008, at 5:05 PM, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
> Lee
> Lot of highlights on this one, 4 from left.
>
> This is the pot that got me going.
> Can anybody read the script on the book cover & page?
> No. 15 refers to the pot, I think.
> Des
Des & Jan Howard on wed 13 aug 08
Paul
Might apply to carbon trap, but not to the rest.
Looking through my book on Japanese pots, given
to me by a workmate 45 years ago, shows a number
of national treasures in grey, white, red & orange.
My experiments in shino, (didn't know the name
the book is in Japanese), started in 1972 after I saw
a colour similarity between some of the book pics
& a neighbouring potters cracked biscuit pot
repaired with a local aluminous kaolin
mixed with sodium silicate binder & stoneware fired.
The crack line was orange red.
Des
Paul Haigh wrote:
> What I've read in a number of sources says that
the orange, red, carbon trap, etc. were developed in
the US in the past 40 years or so, and that many of
the Japanese ones were white or pale on purpose
(of course- wood firing did all sorts of funky things
to them, and the surfaces could be downright moon-like).
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
Des & Jan Howard on thu 14 aug 08
Lee
Lot of highlights on this one, 4 from left.
This is the pot that got me going.
Can anybody read the script on the book cover & page?
No. 15 refers to the pot, I think.
Des
Lee Love wrote:
> While most Japanese shinos are gray to white, there are varying
> colors as Des mentioned, including blue. The big differences with
> the red is that it usually does not cover the entire pot, but only
> highlights in red. And this is usually only on the teabowls. I
> think most of the Mino kilns fired in neutral to oxidation, with a few
> spots in reduction, where the tea bowls were placed.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
www.luepottery.hwy.com.au
(under repair, take it as you find it)
Tony Ferguson on thu 14 aug 08
Rudy,
Most glazes can be single fired AND the only way to know if said glaze works on said body is to do the following: spray, or, dip/pour your work in the green or bone dry stage. Some glazes work better when they are sprayed on bone dry, or sprayed on leather hard, or poured/dipped leather hard or poured/dipped bone dry, etc., There is no recipe for glazing raw, its all experimentation.
My buddy Ernest miller with his porcelain body has to spray in the insides, let them sit for an hour (I recall) and then he can spray the outside. Or, they may need to sit until it dry.
I personally prefer to glaze bone dry. This way I am not waiting for that perfect time of leather hard, equalization, etc. I just watch the pot. Shinos are the most forgiving of all glazes in terms of raw glazing and they usually work either leather or bone--from the high clay content which can shrink and fit--again depending on the clay body. I've seen shinos also pull a part pots because the glaze shrinked more than the clay body. Test, test, test.
Tony Ferguson
Take Care,
Tony Ferguson
...where the sky meets the lake...
http://www.tonyferguson.net
Lee Love on thu 14 aug 08
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
> Lee
> Lot of highlights on this one, 4 from left.
>
> This is the pot that got me going.
> Can anybody read the script on the book cover & page?
> No. 15 refers to the pot, I think.
It is atypical. The red is often called "fire marking." Most
shino pots are gray and not reduced like our gas reduction. If you
look at a typical kiln load, most are grey.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
Lee Love on thu 14 aug 08
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Paul Herman
wrote:
> Des,
>
> That is one very interesting pot, will you tell us a little of what
> you do know about it?
>
It looks like a mokuzuke for serving tea treats. The color is mostly
from an iron slip underneath and not the alumina surface red you find
in most non-salt/soda ash shinos.
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
Des & Jan Howard on thu 14 aug 08
Lee
I don't think that explanation covers it.
Iron slip underneath will usually give grey over the top or harsh
colours if it bleeds. The red comes from a low iron body or traces of
iron in the glaze materials. The red colour forms in the higher
reduction temps & is accentuated by slow oxidised cooling.
The pots in the pics were made from a low iron grey stoneware,(0.6%
Fe2O3).The white cup was made from a very low iron (0.22% Fe2O3)white
porcelaneous body, glazed thickly & it displays a red(ish) rim.
Des
Lee Love wrote:
> It looks like a mokuzuke for serving tea treats. The color is mostly
> from an iron slip underneath and not the alumina surface red you find
> in most non-salt/soda ash shinos.
--
Des & Jan Howard
Lue Pottery
Lue NSW
Australia
2850
02 6373 6419
Ron Roy on tue 19 aug 08
Hi Paul,
To avoid crazing you need a lower not a higher expansion.
Think about it this way - a glaze with a high expansion during heating also
has a high contraction during cooling. Glazes that contract a lot (high
COE) have to break up because they wind up smaller than the clay.
Glazes that don't contract enough - wind up too big for the clay - can
shiver off and cause dunting (cracking.)
Also - Do you have any reason to believe that once fired ware solves fit
problems?
RR
>I picked the recipe that I did to work with because the Malcolm Davis one
>had really high expansion and I'd rather avoid crazing. Some of the
>shino-like slips in Britt's book showed peeling on test-tiles, which is
>somewhat attributed to them NOT being once fired- if the clay and slip
>were changing together in a once-fired situation, then there wouldn't be
>as much mismatch.
Ron Roy
15084 Little Lake Road
Brighton, Ontario
Canada
K0K 1H0
marci Boskie's Mama =^..^= on tue 19 aug 08
At 11:00 PM 8/19/2008, CLAYART automatic digest system wrote:
>Also - Do you have any reason to believe that once fired ware solves fit
>problems?
>
>RR
I can attest to the fact
that once-firing doesnt solve fit problems.. I
once fire clear glazed porcelain . I ve been working
with commercial glazes because for me, the end result of the
clay firing is to have a canvas to paint overglaze on
...so Im not putting my energies into developing whats already
there for me...
.but .. in the process , I tried several clear glazes that
crazed on the clay body Im using ( Laguna Frost ) ...
but have now found several that work beautifully ...
So , yes, once firing doesnt assure a good fit..
Marci Blattenberger Boskie's Mama =^..^=
http://www.marciblattenberger.com
marci@ppio.com
Porcelain Painters International Online http://www.ppio.com
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Lee Love on tue 19 aug 08
Des,
. Shino clay, Mogusa clay, is very high alumina (I fire it
multiple times at cone 13 before it stops leaking) and does not
require heavy reduction. The old kilns fired mostly in oxidation for
many days at lower temps. They take a long time to cool. Hank has
done tile test to determine when the red occurs and it occurs in
oxidation at the lower temps you describe. It is a way to fire that
requires less fuel than the Mino kilns.
The big old Mino kilns never fired to very high temps but fired
over a long period of time. Our fossil fuel kilns behave
differently.
Related to quote below, if you look at the image (have have seen these
dishes in person) the white decoration is where the iron slip is
scraffitoedd away, you have the white decoration.
There is the link so it is handy:
http://www.luepottery.hwy.com.au/Pics/jshino1.jpg
On 8/14/08, Des & Jan Howard wrote:
> Iron slip underneath will usually give grey over the top or harsh
> colours if it bleeds The red comes from a low iron body or traces of
> iron in the glaze materials. http://www.luepottery.hwy.com.au/Pics/jshino1.jpg
--
Lee Love in Minneapolis
http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
http://claycraft.blogspot.com/
"Let the beauty we love be what we do.
There are hundreds of ways to kneel and kiss the ground." --Rumi
Paul Haigh on wed 20 aug 08
"Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 01:01:36 -0400
From: Ron Roy
Subject: Re: Once fired shinos
Hi Paul,
To avoid crazing you need a lower not a higher expansion."
I agree- that's why I actually used the Penn State Shino recipe. (I thought I said that in my original- if not- sorry for the confusion) The MD shino had a really high calc'd expansion with soda ash.
"Also - Do you have any reason to believe that once fired ware solves fit
problems?"
This was with really stiff (and possibly thick) slips. I believe the speculation (in Britt's book) had to do with the slip shrinking as it went through the bisque process, but the pot not shrinking (as it was bisqued already). Not exactly a glaze fit type scenario.
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